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So, on pronouns.

I have a few questions on how to best behave to be as welcoming and inclusive as possible without sounding bad. I hope you guys don’t hate me.

I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him? Is that how I should tell people? Do you actually tell them as you meet them ? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?

How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?

And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

I’d love some help with all of this.

fubo ,

I live in a house with three queer/poly people. Around here, people sometimes introduce themselves or others with a note about their pronouns. But if someone doesn’t, it’s okay and either people will pick up the right ones from context, or they will guess and maybe be gently corrected.

“DiD yOu JuSt AsSuMe My GeNdEr??” is not real; it’s an Internet troll parody.

shapis OP ,

That’s a relief.

So just go on about my merry way and if someone corrects me respect their choices ?

fubo ,

Yeah. Like if you thought someone’s name was Joe but it was actually Jeff and they tell you that, it’s not a big deal. Just one of those things that sometimes happens if you’re meeting new people.

OwenEverbinde ,

Oh no, if I think someone’s name is Joe and it turns out being Jeff, I feel atrocious.

fubo ,

Sure, but you probably have the sense to focus that into remembering their name correctly next time. You wouldn’t go telling them that Jeff is a molester name because Epstein and that therefore they should pretend to be named Joe.

LillyPip ,

Exactly this. It’s just a minor social correction. Like if you meet Pamela and a few sentences later you call her Pam. She corrects you to ‘Pamela’ because she doesn’t like the nickname. No big deal, you call her Pamela and move on. It’s like that.

Nonameuser678 ,
@Nonameuser678@aussie.zone avatar

From what I’ve seen gender diverse people generally seem to understand the difference between someone’s who’s just made a mistake and someone who refuses to use the correct pronoun despite being corrected numerous times.

Sneptaur ,
@Sneptaur@pawb.social avatar

Yep exactly! I’m trans and can confirm it’s not a huge deal. It’s actually usually fine to assume someone’s gender.

gibmiser ,

I think the people who end up getting upset are the ones who are isolated from the LGBT community in real life.

ricecake ,

Yup, that’s about it. A good tactic if you’re not sure about someone’s gender is to lead with your own: “hi, I’m shapis, he/him”. They’ll invariably follow suit most of the time. If they don’t and you get it wrong, well, you tried and were polite about it.

DogMuffins ,

I know I’m out of touch on this, but I just can’t imagine someone introducing themselves in this way. Particularly if you’re a cis male and your pronouns are he/him. I guess it depends on context.

ricecake ,

Yeah, it’s definitely still something new. It’s not something I would typically do in 99% of face to face encounters. In work presentations in front of a large audience we typically just fill it in on the introduction card at the start.

It’s only a tactic for the edge case where someone presents ambiguously, in which case they’re probably perfectly used to it as a way to politely ask. And yeah, it’s a little awkward, but no more so that any other “polite chat with a new person” banter.
You can usually tell what pronouns to use via normal social awareness, and when in doubt, sharing yours is a polite way to prompt others to share theirs.

vis4valentine ,
@vis4valentine@lemmy.ml avatar

Cis allies usually put pronouns in their bios to show support and normalize the act itself of specifying then online. IRL since you are cis and I asume you look masculine there is no need to specify your pronouns.

Just whenever you meet someone and they tell you to talk to them in a specific way, just do it and respect their pronouns. Its easy. Most people dont care if you get it wrong the first times as long as you acknowledge your mistake and correct yourself, your brain will get used to it and you will not make the mistake later. That’s the different between someone who is learning and an idiot purposefully misgendering someone.

BTW if you arent sure about someone elses pronouns, just ask them. Easy.

shapis OP ,

Cool thanks. I just put mine up in my bio. Hopefully in the right spot.

posthexbearposting ,
@posthexbearposting@hexbear.net avatar

IRL since you are cis and I asume you look masculine there is no need to specify your pronouns.

I disagree with this. It’s better not to assume or encourage people to assume pronouns. It’s better to use they/them when you’re not sure. Most of the time you can learn people’s pronouns contextually, by hearing how other people refer to them.

Otherwise, it’s better to use they/them unless you have evidence otherwise. Looks isn’t evidence. It’s not the worst thing to assume once and be wrong, but if you’re aiming for inclusivity it’s better to not assume

vis4valentine ,
@vis4valentine@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah. Good point. But I think OP shouldn’t worry about specifying his pronouns IRL, but what you say is a good general approach.

grabyourmotherskeys ,

One thing I try to do as clueless old man is when I am writing a policy doc or instructions at work, I just stick with they/them.

Instructions on how to merge a branch in Git do not need gender specific pronouns.

vis4valentine ,
@vis4valentine@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah. That is just better.

jpeps ,

I think this is the most basic change to make that simplifies everything. Particularly online, until you described yourself as an ‘old man’ I had no idea of your gender. Traditional language would mean even without this information I’d still refer to you with he/him pronouns, or broader terms like ‘this guy’ etc, but to be more welcoming to everyone, we should be starting out using generic they/them for everyone.

CaptainAniki ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    jpeps ,

    What do you mean by ‘never neutral’?

    Ubettawerk ,

    Your first sentence is a really good point. Many cis-gendered people thing it’s pointless to add their pronouns in their email/bio, but it helps to not out those who are trans. If everyone/most people state their pronouns then it makes it harder to unnecessarily identify those who are trans.

    DirigibleProtein ,

    People who actually care about pronouns will tell you theirs.

    madcaesar ,

    To add to this, I have yet to meet a person in the real world who gives a shit about pronouns. I swear the whole thing is just an online phenomenon used to get people to fight over nonsense.

    evelyn ,

    Most people don’t have to care about pronouns. For a small subset of people the gender of their brain does not match the gender they appear as. Passing as your preferred gender can take years and is mostly down to genetics. So non-passing trans people will ask others to use their pronouns so they can socially transition before they pass. And that isn’t even mentioning non-binary people. The reason cis people specify their pronouns is to normalize it for trans people who don’t have a choice.

    seliaste ,
    @seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    In my university Ive been asked what my pronouns were multiple time by all sorts of people
    Idk how it is where you live but in french univerities it is definetly real life

    hardcoreufo ,

    I’ve been to conferences where the name tag has a place for pronouns but most people don’t fill them out. 99% of the time it’s safe to assume the pronouns you believe are correct, are correct. If you get told otherwise use the preferred pronouns in the future. If someone freaks out over it after one mistake that’s their problem.

    You can also get around pronouns by just using names. I find i rarely need to use pronouns.

    Gormadt ,
    @Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    And as a bonus linguistic fun fact:

    Everyone is they/them until you find out otherwise

    Or at least that’s how I was taught English

    jpeps ,

    “I went to see a doctor about my headaches today.”

    “Oh good, what did X say?”

    Anyone that doesn’t use ‘they’ here either has more information than I provided or is a bit sexist.

    elkaki ,

    Just one thing to add, people freaking out is extremely uncommon. I haven’t even heard about a case IRL, even for trans people it isn’t something that tends to happen.

    Don’t be afraid to just guess when you are unsure, you can always ask though and at least for younger generations it isn’t seen as weird or unpolite to do so

    Kecessa ,

    The only place it happens is in conservatives’ minds and when people make the “mistake” on purpose.

    elkaki ,

    A.K.A “the Jordan Peterson experience”

    amio ,

    Mostly it's chill - don't worry about it. If you make an honest mistake, no sane person will think less of you for it. The real faux pas people keep running into is usually just being a cock about this. It's reasonably easy to avoid.

    You likely don't need to tell anyone IRL. You're a guy, so he/him is natural. Nobody's likely to even ask. Same applies if it's obvious online, otherwise feel free to add it in your profile or something.

    And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out ? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

    Most people are cis (etc) anyway, so the obvious guess is mostly safe. You rarely need to refer to anyone by a pronoun before they're introduced to you. In that case it's "they" - perfectly normal, native English for centuries, which people sometimes forget. Then, if someone's introduced as "Bob" he's probably fine with "he" etc.

    If you're worried about getting it wrong, I'd just wait for a name or refer to them some other way.

    I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

    IRL that's unlikely, neopronouns are pretty niche even on the internet. He/she/they will do in the vast majority of cases. People who insist on one of the other ones are fairly rare.

    TheAnonymouseJoker ,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    I have been using “they/them” to refer to unknown internet persons, regardless of gender, since years now. It is a strategy I adopted not out of the progressive social culture norms, but as a way to anonymise people when referring to them or anything they say. And what do you know, turns out that ambiguous linguistics work like a charm across a wide range of things in life.

    JackbyDev ,

    Also it’s literally the way you’re supposed to refer to individuals of unknown gender.

    TheAnonymouseJoker ,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Most people today conform to the standards, either out of fear of getting cancelled or out of respect for humanity (recognising third gender and so on). I adopted the convention long before it was known or “popular” to do so. Each of these 3 cases have a huge difference.

    To someone like me, it felt very disorienting for people to be so chimp headed, they could not or refused to understand that gender and sex are not the same thing, just because it used to always be 2 tickboxes on school forms. Even more weird was why people would not use ambiguous pronouns for cultural privacy.

    robot_dog_with_gun ,

    just be careful not to de-gender someone who makes it known they have one and prefer particular pronouns.

    TheAnonymouseJoker ,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    I have never done that, and never was asked to. Maybe it is because I already naturally follow the convention before even being asked, and we are quite a bit far away as a global society from needing to take the extra step (rightwingers that purposely degender and all that).

    doom_and_gloom , (edited )
    @doom_and_gloom@lemmy.ml avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    PrincessLeiasCat ,

    This is a wonderfully put together comprehensive and informative reply. Thank you :)

    muntedcrocodile ,
    @muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

    I make assumptions say what i think if im corrected then sure ill refer to u how u want. And when people get mad for me assuming they can get fucked and grow up they are juat words and if words hurt u that bad uve got bigger problems than ur pronouns.

    innermachine ,

    Facts. My mom is Spanish ASF and to this day regularly misgenders people all the time (call me and my brother she, call sisters he), just hasn’t come easy to her. As long as somebody isn’t INTENTIONALLY calling u the wrong pronouns for the express purpose of pissing you off u just correct them and move on. If u get that hung up on a simple innocent mistake u need to step back and adjust your shitty attitude.

    planish ,

    I think the key is for it to be a provisional guess and not a will-be-shocked-if-it’s-wrong assumption. You need to be prepared to have been wrong.

    JackbyDev ,

    I agree with what you’re saying but there’s a gentler way to say this. No need to say they can get fucked.

    muntedcrocodile ,
    @muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah sometimes i forgot that not everyone uses swear words like we do down under

    eupraxia ,
    @eupraxia@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Yeah, I think that’s pretty much all that is generally needed. I’ve had people assume but ask me first, just asking “she/her?” as a question, I respond yes, we go about our business. If you don’t want to assume, you can also pretty much universally use they/them in passing, or if it’s someone you interact with more frequently, people really don’t tend to mind if you ask.

    I mean I’m trans, I get around quite a bit in queer spaces, I haven’t met anyone who would get super mad about initially assuming pronouns rather than just saying “hey I prefer XYZ” and moving on. Generally when people react strongly to being misgendered, it’s due to ongoing conflict over their identities, having to deal with people who use pronouns to casually disregard your Identity, familial abandonment, etc. It is often a response to complex trauma from elsewhere. That’s not really your responsibility, but I’ve been there and if you can offer them any grace in those moments, it’s extremely helpful.

    ClockNimble ,

    Hello! Resident Genderfluid person here. Usually you can just ask their name and that works to get them to give you the greeting they like. They look like a James, but give you the name Samantha? Probably safe to use she/her unless doing so has them ask you to use something else. IRL, at least.

    Online? It’s usually in a bio or they will tell you if it is functionally relevant. The only people I (anecdotally) have seen devolve into scree when accidentally misgendered were people trying to start something or acting for the sake of poisoning the well.

    As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places. Look up gay/trans panic laws. It’s dangerous to be queer in America with Conservatives having so much sway right now.

    Delicious_Tomatoes ,

    As far as using non conventional pronouns irl, you probably haven’t heard it since it is genuinely dangerous to be outed in a lot of places.

    This is usually true enough for rule of thumb, but can vary wildly by geography. I would be willing to help smuggle a gender minority out of a rural zone, whereas I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear “ze/zim” in some cities. In general, the GSRM community will appreciate a cis ally signaling ally-ship. OP, as long as it’s safe for you, the community would appreciate your announcing pronouns; it signals that you are not a totally garbage human.

    amelia ,

    I would also assume that if someone who looks like a James introduces themselves as Samantha, it’s absolutely fine to ask for the correct pronouns, or ask them to confirm it’s female pronouns. Samantha would probably actually appreciate it.

    Blake ,

    I’m just a straight male. Are my pronouns he/him?

    Probably. Straight is the wrong word here - that refers to your sexuality, not your gender identity. A straight male is into women. But a straight male could also have pronouns other than he/him. Usually, a cisgender male uses he/him pronouns, but not always. Cisgender is a word that means that your gender identity matches your assigned gender at birth - e.g. not transgender

    Is that how I should tell people?

    Yes, the best way to do it is part of your introductions, like, “Hi, I’m Blake, my pronouns are he him”. Usually people don’t “say” the slash, it’s just a space, but you can say it if you want.

    Do you actually tell them as you meet them ?

    It’s up to you. If I am meeting someone 1:1 for the first time, I probably wouldn’t unless they did first. I always do it when I’m introducing myself to a group.

    Do I have to wait for a certain social cue ?

    The only social cue is simply, “what are your pronouns?”. Ideally, we (cisgender folk) should be trying to make it easier for transgender/non-binary people by sharing our pronouns, even if they would be obvious to most people - I’m a hairy, 6’4” bear, most people can tell I identify as male, but if I say my pronouns are he/him or any/all pronouns (I don’t mind which pronouns people use for me) it makes it less awkward for trans people or gender non-conforming (GNC) folk to do so.

    How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?

    It’s up to you, nobody will expect it from you - it’s personal information after all. If you’re comfortable sharing it, then you can put it anywhere you like, including on your profile, or you can share at the point it becomes relevant.

    And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out?

    Either they tell you, or you ask them! It’s better if you avoid trying to guess. If you need to use a pronoun and you haven’t been told them, go with they/them.

    Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them ?

    Nope, not at all! No one is expecting you to know their pronouns before they tell you, or you ask.

    Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

    Usually not - most of the time, you probably can guess from gender expression, and you wouldn’t cause any offence. If there is even 1% doubt in your mind though, you should definitely just ask. Even if you’re 99.99% or even 100% sure, it’s good to ask anyways. The more we normalise people asking and sharing pronouns, the less awkward it becomes for everyone!

    I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

    In my experience, it’s pretty uncommon, but it does exist. Usually they’re used by people who don’t really feel comfortable identifying as exclusively male or exclusively female, or by people who want to subvert or oppose the usual gender binary.

    Hope this helps, thanks for being open with your questions and for trying to make the world a better place! If you have any other questions just ask.

    Dirk ,
    @Dirk@lemmy.ml avatar

    Outside the internet no-one really cares. Inside the Internet only certain bubbles care.

    Gsus4 ,
    @Gsus4@feddit.nl avatar

    And one of the best parts of online discussions is that they are not biased by how you look, just what you write :)

    Dirk ,
    @Dirk@lemmy.ml avatar

    I don’t know if it would be any better rating myself based on looks instead of my writing :D

    But yes, that’s a great thing. Everyone in the Internet is just an entity addressed by the nickname. There is no need for gender or pronouns.

    Maoo ,
    @Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

    Many other answers emphasizing to be on the considerate side are good. I just want to add two things.

    Some folks have said that when the way you present matches your pronouns, you have less need to offer them. Personally, I think it is good to offer them anyways when meeting new people. People don’t always present exactly in a way that you might expect their pronouns to indicate. As one example among many, someone may present very femme but prefer they/them pronouns.

    This also helps us (you and me both!) unlearn some of our learned gender associations and habits of inferring gender based on appearances. It can sometimes be unpleasant to deal with someone that’s clearly trying to figure out their gender identity visually or by voice, etc - trans or not. For an extreme example, there are even cis people getting harassed about which bathroom they’re using (the one aligning with their gender) based on reactionary assumptions.

    Finishing up that topic, offering your own pronouns is also a way of letting others know it’s okay to be more open around you, that you are a bit safer than the average person. This can be most impactful, imo, for people who are trans or questioning but who aren’t out yet. A lot of folks are struggling at that point in their lives and it can really help to know who is safer.

    My final thought is that when you don’t know someone’s identity, it’s good to get in the habit of using their name or they/them. If it’s a real person irl, then you’d still want to ask for pronouns soon-ish. Occasionally, they/them-ing someone can also become unpleasant, though usually it’ll be obvious from context (e.g. someone who is trans and strongly prefers he/him might perceive continued they/them to be a form of harassing them). Grabbing pronouns soon-ish avoids any awkwardness.

    Wahots ,
    @Wahots@pawb.social avatar

    Yes, your pronouns are he/him :)

    Generally, people are pretty chill about it. If you are unsure how to refer to someone, you can always just call them by their first name or something else (the barista at the front counter, the person in the yellow sweater, etc!)

    I wouldn’t overthink it, most people are totally cool if you get it wrong, especially if you show a willingness to get it right from then on. Queer people just wanna be treated like everyone else :)

    -queer guy living in the gay district

    BigNote ,

    you can always just call them by their first name or something else

    Well I didn’t know you were called Dennis.

    Owl , (edited )
    @Owl@hexbear.net avatar

    Are my pronouns he/him?

    Probably. Your pronouns are what you want them to be. If someone says “I saw shapis at the park yesterday, but he looked busy so I didn’t say hi to him,” are he and him what you want in those positions?

    (I’m going to assume you’re a he/him for the rest of this, but if you want something else let me know and I’ll edit the post.)

    Is that how I should tell people?

    Yeah, you’d say “my pronouns are he/him.”

    Do you actually tell them as you meet them? Do I have to wait for a certain social cue?

    In person, it comes up in group meetings where people are making an effort to be inclusive, typically gender diverse or far left crowds. Someone will mention it, or people will just start doing it. You don’t have to be the first person to start adding pronouns. But if you’re in a crowd with someone you know would appreciate it, it’d be nice to start it on your own (without singling them out).

    The most awkward option is that you introduce yourself without pronouns, then it goes around the room and people start; in that case just pipe up and say yours are he/him.

    How about online. Should I tell people or have it on my personal profile somewhere?

    Having it in your profile online is a good idea. Online it’s way more important, since it also combats “there are no girls on the internet.”

    And about respecting other people’s pronouns. How do i figure them out? Is it a big faux pas if I don’t before I know them? Is it a faux pas if I refer to someone I just met and I assumed to be male as he/him?

    If someone has a gender presentation you can’t figure out, ask. If you’re pretty sure, guess. It’s a minor faux pas to get it wrong, but it’s within the realm of the inevitable awkwardness of human interaction, just say sorry once, correct yourself, and move on. Think of it as being as rude as accidentally stepping on someone’s foot. (Think about how rude that’d be if you kept doing it though.)

    I’ve never seen anyone referring to anyone irl by non conventional pronouns. Is it an actual thing or is it currently being pushed to make the world a more inclusive place?

    It is very rare, but they’re out there. People with really unconventional pronouns (I’ve met a fae/faer) are going to understand if you have to slow down when talking about them. Generally they’re chosen by people whose gender identity is nonconventional enough that they’re willing to put up with the hassle to get something that feels more right to them.

    shapis OP ,

    he and him what you want in those positions?

    I had never stopped to think about this. I guess the answer in my partícular case is I literally don’t care which ones they use. Hm. Not sure what that means.

    Thank you for the detailed comment.

    Owl ,
    @Owl@hexbear.net avatar

    in my partícular case is I literally don’t care which ones they use. Hm. Not sure what that means.

    Some people don’t have internal gender feelings and just go with whatever they were assigned at birth out of convenience. I actually started that way and slowly drifted to feeling like my assigned gender much later in life.

    Other times, someone realizing that is the first sign they’re trans. If you ask a group of trans people, that’ll probably be some of their origin stories. But I don’t think it’s actually that common overall (trans people are rare!). So what I’d recommend to you, and the other five people reading this that identify with your statement, is that you all sit down and think about your gender feelings a bit, so the trans one can get on with her life.

    But anyway, pronouns options for the “assigned male but I don’t care” crowd are he/him, he/them, they/them, he/him/any, and any. For that last one, in a crowd where people are saying pronouns, you’d just say “any pronouns are fine”. (Long time hexbears know I used to rock the he/him/any.)

    posthexbearposting ,
    @posthexbearposting@hexbear.net avatar

    seconding this. i started as not caring. realised im non-binary but still don’t really care. pronouns don’t really bother me, as for me, how other people view and refer to me doesn’t really affect my internal feelings on my gender. obviously this isn’t the case for all trans people, some definitely want to be seen and referred to as their self-id gender.

    saplyng ,
    @saplyng@kbin.social avatar

    Ahh I see, now I get it. I never quite understood the need for the (he/she/them) when meeting new groups because I always felt aggressively apathetic to my own pronouns; sort of a "I don't care what you call me it doesn't change my feeling of me". But your comment and this chain helped that click for me!

    RickRussell_CA ,
    @RickRussell_CA@lemmy.world avatar

    IMO, I think the world is going to transition to using they/them for gender unspecified folks. I’ve been practicing using they/them in written and spoken communications, and it comes off a lot less strange than you’d think.

    Pooptimist ,

    *The English speaking world

    Chobbes ,

    You mean to tell me that they don’t use English pronouns in other languages? I’m gonna need a source on that one, buddy!

    Although, more seriously, I am curious if other languages lacking common usage of gender neutral pronouns are doing similar things to they/them. I know mandarin also has a bit of a weird situation where the third person pronoun when spoken is gender neutral, but the characters are gendered (他/她/它 are all PRONOUNced “ta”). I don’t know too much about why this is, but it sounds like it was foreign influence that led to the distinction in the written form?

    jpeps ,

    I know at least for French it’s been more controversial as there was no direct they/them equivalent. Instead new language has started to be used, though it’s not standard. I find it interesting as they/them is often defended (beyond the fact that it’s been in use in English for a long long time) as being a language tool in English that’s readily available and a far more palatable alternative to neo-pronouns. However in French (and other languages) I wonder if an invented gender neutral equivalent is culturally perceived as being no different.

    grabyourmotherskeys ,

    I just replied to another comment saying this. It’s trivial and I ask others to do it. I was thinking it would be easy to build this into grammar check software - prompt the user to ask if the document is gender specific, and if not suggest they/them.

    MIDItheKID ,

    I have worked in IT for 15+ years, and I default to they/them for pretty much everybody. If I get a ticket in for an end user, and the name on the ticket is Jaime or something, it’s a coin toss on the gender, so I just go to they/them. Even if the name is more gender oriented, I don’t make any assumptions. And of course there is the case for foreign names I have never heard before. There’s no harm in using they/them. Or of course the ol’ “The end user”

    Thorny_Thicket ,

    Finnish language doesn’t have gender specific pronous. Our equivalance for he/she is “hän” and it just refers to a person - not any specific gender. You can literally identify as anything you like, and “hän” still includes to you. Seems like the obvious solution to the “issue”.

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