I will be voting Green regardless. As far as I’m concerned Harris was the 2nd or 3rd most conservative candidate in the 2020 Democrat primaries out of ±14 candidates. She was only in front of Bloomberg and maybe Biden on the spectrum. Her replacing Biden was always a very real possibility for anyone that actually understands U.S. government & politics as well as the whole ‘aging-process.’
-I don’t expect to win but I’d rather vote for who I want and lose than vote for who I don’t want and win.
I don't expect to win but I'd rather vote for who I want and lose than vote for who I don't want and win.
What about people who don't have that luxury, who may literally not make it to the end of a second Trump administration with their life undestroyed by it? Hispanic immigrants are the most obvious candidates, although honestly it could expand to encompass quite a few people.
Why are you not worried about Trump ending the democratic machinery that you might use to vote in a Green candidate in the future? Trump seems like just as big a disaster for third-party democracy as he does for two-party democracy.
Do you agree with Stein about disbanding NATO? Is that one of those things you would rather vote for and lose than etc etc? I actually think most of her platform looks excellent if it could be pulled off, but that one is a little bit of a random red flag in the mixture.
If the only real choice is between a “fascist” that will end Democracy and somebody who doesn’t represent me, then you can’t really argue that we live in a Democracy and then there is nothing to defend.
If it’s your fellow people you are concerned about protecting, then I’d advise you to check your candidate’s policy because the Green’s Policy has a way stronger humanitarian bend to it. -In fact, I’d also like to direct you to the Democrats recently proposed Immigration bill if you’re worried about protecting the Hispanic and immigrant population
I’m Indifferent to Nato considering it’s such a huge financial sacrifice the people of our country are making to perpetuate a military industrial machine that kills hundreds of thousands while also disproportionately protecting countries that are not our own. perhaps those countries should take the mantle and pay to support themselves as the ‘World Police.’ If we cut our military budget by 50% we still have the second largest military in the world. -We still don’t have a publicly funded Healthcare option and I’m suppose to care about sustaining NATO? No, that’s not a high priority to me.
[Edit] Also In response to what if trump wins and ends my ability to vote third party, I’d say “what if I vote democrat and they end my ability to vote third party?” I ask this because that was a very real concern after covid when Democrat governors were all too happy to kick the Green party off of the various state ballots for not getting enough signatures while making exceptions for their own parties.
Outlook not so good for Navalny long-term, regardless. Perhaps Germany, UK, France should spend more of their own budget to wind up military production to help their own neighbor. We need to stay The f*** out of Central & South American Politics full-stop.
You can’t lose a vote you aren’t even in the running for. That’s like writing in Charlie Brown and then saying you lost the vote. You didn’t; you just didn’t cast a meaningful vote for President. You’re changing nothing. You’re not moving the Overton window even a hair to the left. You’re just sitting on the sidelines.
But you know if you give zero shits about the presidency and just want to vote in local races, that’s fair, I suppose.
Voting isn’t only about winning. It’s also about making your voice heard. In hard Blue or Red states an individual vote won’t likely make a difference. If a 3rd party got enough of the vote Republicans and Democrats would be scrambling over each other to make their party platform more palatable to that 3rd party.
No conservatives browse this site, you’re only going to get Kamala voters here, including myself, telling you what you want to hear: we are going to fucking vote for any Democrat. We are what people call an echo chamber.
Conservative as fuck but haven’t had a single Conservative presidential candidate to vote for in over 10 years. Even then I think I voted Obama twice lol.
This is true. There are two kinds of people who would vote orange. There are those too dumb to understand that he'd make himself dictator, and consequently too dumb to use the Fediverse. Then, there are those smart enough to understand those things and evil enough to want a dictatorship, and they're mostly on those tankie/fascist instances everyone else defederated. Neither of those groups will ever see this thread.
This. Most people here will vote for Wilson from Castaway if he was the Dem nominee.
And they wouldn’t even say it’s because Wilson is the only Dem. They would come up with all the ways that Wilson is actually a good presidential candidate.
Man, I’m so sick of voting for people that I consider the lesser problem just because they aren’t actually evil. I’d rather have him as the presidential candidate because he’s closer to my preferences, and has a history that’s more aligned with his current stances.
But it’s whatever, the money tied into the two party system combined with the alternative parties never fielding anyone worth a damn for me to vote for means I’m stuck voting democrat again.
I’m not one to abstain because that’s just pointless to me. If I’m going to put up with all the fucking campaign crap, all the people running their damn mouths about it, I’m at least going to get my voice counted. If I could hermit away from the bullshit, go totally off grid and never have to see another human I didn’t want to, I’d abstain. But I can’t. So yet again, the fptp system is shit that I have to wade in.
But, yeah, him being VP makes the shit sandwich we’re being served by the two party system a teeny, tiny bit less nasty to swallow. He at least has a history of trying to do what he says he intends to, and his efforts as governor align with the social issues the same way as mine for the most part.
This is like the fireman saying "But it's whatever, these assholes with their cigarettes and fireworks combined with shoddy building materials and false alarms mean I'm stuck responding to the fire again. I'm not one to not respond at all, because that's just pointless to me. But…”
I could bring up a half a trillion dollars on climate change, reduced income inequality, gains in wages for working people even outpacing pretty historic inflation in 2022, etc etc fa la la, reasons why the Biden/Harris ticket was actually substantially better than most of the horseshit that is the modern Democrats, but "oh great I guess we gotta vote against fascism, it feels like this shit keeps happening" as a demoralizing thing as opposed to "holy shit the system is fucked how do we make some actual progress because we have to fucking live here" honestly just seems so childish and I feel like people are aware of the difference between the options and the gravity involved here
If getting up and voting is all that offensive to you, I can't imagine how you would react to the level of effort and risk it will take to actually make the system good, and fix the 2-party system problems you're talking about. It involves a hell of a lot more than showing up one particular day and being willing to pick "not the end of the world" instead of "yes end of world."
The fuck are you on about? I’m not a fucking fireman, I’m a citizen that’s spent over thirty years dealing with this shitshow that is American politics.
I’m struggling not to just call you an asshole because you know nothing about the kind of actions I’ve taken in those thirty years, organizing, protesting, literally getting my ass beat in gay rights rallies.
So, yeah, I’m fucking exhausted watching a lifetime of civil rights being attacked and democrats fumbling the fucking ball every damn time things get hard. And that’s ignoring that I don’t even agree with the half of the democrat platform because they’re capitalist stooges perfectly willing to bend over for oligarchs come donation time.
Man, fuck you and your smug shit. Level of effort and risk, my hairy ass. You take a fucking boot the the spine covering up some kid at a rally and come talk to me about effort and risk.
Yeah. I've been at rallies and protests (antiwar for me). I haven't done as much as I should have; I'm feeling pretty guilty about that now. Friends and family of mine have done more than I have, inside and outside of the political system.
I've also been friends with people who've tangled with the US system of immigration, whose heads might be on the block if Trump wins. That's why I am strongly opposed to your "the shit sandwich we're being served by the two party system" "don't even agree with the half of the democrat platform because they're capitalist stooges perfectly willing to bend over for oligarchs" stuff. One, it isn't true, in this election (although in general I'll agree about the Democrats). Biden was the first Democrat in decades who actually seemed to make some inclinations in favor of the American underclass. Two, the alternative right now is horrifyingly dangerous. That's why I use the fireman analogy -- like whether the building is clean or dirty or we need to bring it up to code is simply not relevant when it's going to burn down with your and my family inside.
If you were spending this much energy on saying "holy shit we gotta fix the system now more than ever", then sure, I'd be right there with you. You can let me know the protest and we can go and get our asses kicked together. If your energy is "ew ugh Democrats I hate this both parties amirite," then please excuse me if I explain in my own smug shit fashion why that is 1,000% objectively wrong as applied to this election. I am saying that because I do care about the very same vulnerable people you are trying to mobilize to make the point, somehow, in the opposite direction.
What is wrong with you? People being dissatisfied with politics is the very first step required to actually change anything. Yes, the current administration has done some good things, but none of it is nearly enough, and we should still be plenty mad about all of it.
Specific side note: you say reduce income inequality, but regular people are way worse off financially than their parents were and that’s not going away without some real change and we haven’t actually seen anything moving in that direction
People being dissatisfied with politics is the very first step required to actually change anything.
I don't think there is a shortage of dissatisfaction with politics in this country. There might be some imaginary country where if everyone would just get disaffected and cynical enough, the problems would get dealt with, but I think most of America's problem at this point is in the action piece.
Yes, the current administration has done some good things, but none of it is nearly enough, and we should still be plenty mad about all of it.
Plenty mad at the ones who are responsible, and invested in solutions that will move it in the right direction, yes. The reason I disagreed with the original poster is not that I don't want to fix things, it is that their proposed solution is mostly disaffectation instead of anything that will be that solution.
Specific side note: you say reduce income inequality, but regular people are way worse off financially than their parents were and that's not going away without some real change and we haven't actually seen anything moving in that direction
Low-income wages went up 32% since 2019, as a result of a stronger NLRB backstopping a bunch of union gains and the results of spending a trillion dollars of increased corporate taxes on domestic manufacturing. Covid inflation ate up most but not all of that boost; if Biden hadn't been handed an unfolding apocalypse with a lot of people still dependent on Covid assistance to live, I think it would have been a much more dramatic change, but it's definitely not nothing. He also spent about 10 times what anyone else has spent on climate change, putting us on track for a 40% reduction in emissions by 2030.
Is any of that enough? Fuck no. But it's also definitely not "haven't actually seen anything." You may not have seen anything, because I think a lot of Lemmy posters are employed in tech, and that sector has still been a shit show where people aren't keeping up with inflation. But the working class is actually doing substantially better than they were even before Covid, even under historic inflation. That's pretty fuckin unusual. And shitting on it (saying those working-class people don't represent "regular people"), or saying that because we haven't undone multiple generations of fuckery in the space of a couple of years, it doesn't count, is not something I agree with.
Low-income wages went up 32% since 2019, as a result of a stronger NLRB backstopping a bunch of union gains and the results of spending a trillion dollars of increased corporate taxes on domestic manufacturing. Covid inflation ate up most but not all of that boost;
So people are still as poor as ever? Sorry but I’m not going to throw a party for the bare minimum 🙄. I’m going to keep complaining and so should everyone else.
No, working-class people are 12% richer (inflation adjusted) than they used to be, and that's a pretty fuckin significant number given the obstacles of Covid and Republicans that were standing in the way. The numbers are, 32% gains, 20% inflation, equals 12% gain inflation adjusted.
"Keep complaining" in the sense of advocating for better, finding more people who will help you get those outcomes and trying to work out how to get them in charge, sounds great. "Keep complaining" in the sense of blaming the people who are fighting for you for not doing a better job, and implying that them trying to give you trillions of dollars and partially succeeding is basically the same as the people who want to end democracy (and also steal back that money and more), is stupid. In my opinion.
The person you were replying to originally said they were voting dem because they felt like they had to but that they weren’t excited to. That is a very reasonable stance being that we are living in the fucking gilded age. Maybe the poorest people are slightly better off but the richest people are still hoarding even more money/ control/ influence and the people you’re wanting to worship as saviors haven’t even remotely addressed it.
Where are we talking about addressing the ridiculous health care system that is entirely designed to extract money for rich people instead of prioritize outcomes. Where are we taking about addressing the increasingly expensive education system? (Forgiving student loans is a band aid that while helpful in the here and now does nothing to fix the real problems). I could go on and on. This is a country optimized for rich people and you are expecting people to celebrate crumbs from the table.
You really need to get off your high horse and understand that people really need to be given real reasons to feel optimistic about the future instead of saying “here are some numbers” while people can’t afford their rent and groceries.
You think people use downvoting to change a person’s mind? I always felt it was mostly to express disapproval or disagreement.
In this case, I think it’s shallow/selfish thinking that leads people to not vote or throw their vote away with a third party vote just so they can smugly say "don’t blame me, I didn’t vote for Harris/Trump 😏" like it’s the most clever thing ever.
As a POC, I can’t help but shake at folks like this because it’s like they’d rather play these little games when shit gets real rather than ya know, getting real.
I think it’s shallow/selfish thinking that leads people to not vote or throw their vote away with a third party vote just so they can smugly say "don’t blame me, I didn’t vote for Harris/Trump 😏
You’re welcome to think that, How can I throw a vote away that has literally no impact on the presidential election? I’m not in a swing state and I still vote downballot- what’s even more annoying is it’s so non-competitive many of the state level democrats are just low-key republicans running as democrats. The result is yet another non-choice of an election.
You don’t have to stop, but you’re also politically irrelevant. I’d get tired of that myself. I did. That’s why I stopped throwing my vote away on third party. But you do you. I really don’t care since you’re a non-participant.
Look, where you can actually achieve things is in the Democratic primaries. Find the furthest left person you can and try to make them the candidate. Move the party left. Get your brand of politician onto the ballot on one of the teams that can win. Replicate that across the country and I guess the Democrats become communists, though I can’t imagine things flipping that far. You still have to deal with swing states that will be much harder to get communist candidates elected even in a major party.
That’s the only realistic way to accomplish your goal without either waiting for one party to commit suicide or futilely taking up arms to try to replace the whole system of government.
That’s not even my political persuasion, but look I’ll be long dead before that ever happens so more power to you. We’ve swung way too far right and I’ll work with anyone to swing it back the other way.
I have plenty of critiques of PSL running primarily national election campaigns, the whole national level election just seems like a resource sink. I guess if they get to a certain percent they get federal money for it.
The problem is a lot of local politics are already very much on lockdown by realtor/home construction/lawyer types. They will often get unquestionably voted in by homeowners, simply by evoking the fear of housing prices going down, or taxes going up. Homeowners are often vastly over-represented in terms of voter participation, due to structural disenfranchisement of poor people.
Most people who you could organize in a given municipality who aren’t homeowners will be under constant economic pressure to follow work or new housing, leading to a lot of churn - and often leading to people just getting unenrolled because they didn’t update their address when they changed landlords.
(Honestly this is why I prefer to just work on non-election stuff with my time)
I mean people also say you’ll grow up from being a liberal so lol. I presume it has a lot to do with why you have a particular political position and if you’ve actually thought it out at all.
lemmy.ml in particular is quite bad. lemmy.world is a little less bad but still has some annoyances. Most of the other ones are fine.
Of course you can participate in communities anywhere from any server; about the only thing that will impact you is reputational impacts and maybe the occasional instance block or admin fuckery. I have heard rumors of admin fuckery on lemmy.ml (moderation actions and then editing the modlog to make it look like it didn't happen), but IDK whether that is accurate.
Some instances block one or both of Lemmy.ml or Lemmy.world because their users are known for being, in the aggregate, a pain in the ass.
Well none of the people here are from corporate -owned sites since we’re all on Lemmy. Your world view aligns perfectly with authoritarian-right. That’s why you get so much pushback.
I’m really not a fan and it’s embarrassing every time Russia does some cringe culture war shit. America won the cold war so it’s what we’re stuck with, sadly
I am 100% voting for Kamala in a deep blue state. But, I wanted to point out that it’s not the popular vote that matters, unfortunately, thanks to the electoral college.
Harris has me profoundly optimistic. She’s the most qualified candidate I’ll have had the chance to vote for in my lifetime.
Walz is fine, I was keen on Buttigieg but I’ll happily vote for Walz and let Buttigieg keep his important current position.
My biggest hope is that Kamala will draw out some of the less extreme right leaning women, nobody needs to know that they’re voting for the better candidate and God knows women need allies with the ongoing barrage.
This election cycle is not about fear for me, Harris is an easy candidate to vote for!
Why would you ask the question if someone who's going to be enthusiastic about their answer is going to be confusing to you
IDK if you've noticed but a lot of people are excited about Harris, although maybe that's just happiness because it's not the guy who might have a sundown moment on stage or something
I was always going to vote against Trump, no matter who the other candidate was. I’m glad it’s Kamala, though. I think most people on Lemmy see the danger and made their decision long ago. Blue, no matter who.
Sure, but Blue No Matter Who started during the 2016 Democratic primary between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders supporters. It encourages Democrats to come together and support the nominee in the general election, no matter who they backed in the primary. I use it to highlight the importance of coming together to stand against Republicans.
Not pitting one side or another but kind of seems like Republicans need to purge their own House…no pun intended…I think people are sick and tired of hearing them. But that may just me be.
Same here unfortunately. Since in the state where I am from does all electronic and I can’t do a write in ballet…otherwise it would be my dog Buddy for president.
When you shop for a place to live, do you buy/rent nothing because nothing is “perfect”? Or do you weigh the benefits and detriments of each available option and choose the best one?
There’s a clear choice, and if you need to see what voter apathy gets you, look at Venezuela. We got a second chance because the Jan 6 attempt failed. If you don’t vote, the usurper might win.
I would rather buy if i settled down or retired. I never weigh the benefits because I am always renting…well at least for the past 15 years. In my circumstance it is the best option. I currently can’t vote because I am not currently in my home state. I would vote harris but can’t vote because the rest of the year is filled with contracts for me to travel.
Hey, I get that writing in your dog might seem funny, but this election is way too important for that. If people don’t take voting seriously, it increases the chances of someone like Trump winning again in 2024. And with things like Project 2025 on the horizon, which aims to reshape the government in ways that could really hurt a lot of people, every vote really does count. We need to stick together and vote wisely if we want to avoid some serious consequences.
all right all right lemmys I will vote…but I want dog treats sent from all of you MF’ers that say I should not do a write in. So I can feed them to Buddy. Hell I will have to take down the sign that says Buddy for 2024
I didn’t even vote for Harris a first time, so I’m sure this person, even despite people complaining she can’t read the room, doesn’t need my help becoming president.
Aside from voting for third parties, who do need my help, I’m so done with even the concept of voting.
The fascists want to convince you that your vote doesn't matter. Defy the fascists and vote. Besides, the state and local races make more of a difference anyway, so at least show up for those.
I definitely do those. Not sure how much of an impact that has, but when you have such deception as which takes place on the next level, like with the various media scandals on both sides, it’s a negative omen. In my mind at least, it’s like all those people who lied about their life situation to gain community contributions, times ten. But some people divide it for some reason.
The fascists we're talking about are strictly Trump and his followers. Other conservatives are also bad, but not bad enough to overthrow the government and install a dictator.
As for the argument that a vote for a third party is a vote for the bad guy, I'm not so sure. I voted against Biden in the primaries because we can do better. But when tens of millions of people are going to vote to install a dictator, the rest of us need to be united behind one candidate long enough to defeat them. Someday, third parties will be viable, but not this year.
I’m on the fence between Harris or to abstain. My opinion is that the Democrats are not listening to the people, and by holding hands with the international criminals in Israel, they are alienating progressives massively (no doubt her VP pick is an attempt to win them over). 76 years of pro-Israel policy, and what has it done?
When it comes to economy, Harris is a neoliberal, and rather conservative economically, which I disagree with.
In some style guides single letters get pluralized with an apostrophe to differentiate from similar words. You’d talk about all the a’s in a sentence because otherwise you’re writing as, and then for consistency’s sake you do the same with other single letters too.
I didn’t really care who she picked to begin with. There are other people who would excite me more, but nothing excites me like the idea of beating Trump and then sending him to prison.
Well, first we beat him at the polls, then we finish all the prosecutions. If we don’t beat him, the prosecutions are going to be moot. The court cases will be dropped.
I understand that, what’s he done specifically that carries a prison sentence? I’m not disagreeing with you, but I’m unaware of a case waiting on a trigger that doesn’t end up in just a fine.
Just saying “she’ll find a reason to lock him up” is a terrible take. That’s what MAGA wants to do to their political opponents. It’s also what people mean when we say ACAB.
There’s the Georgia election interference case - I don’t know what the potential penalties there are, but they can only delay that one until after the election. And Jan 6. There is the fraud sentencing in NY which, you are correct will likely not result in prison time since he’s a first time offender (lol).
There are two or three pending cases about fake electors where he is an unindicted co-conspirator which could potentially be amended to include him. Apparently now a potential bribery case if that hasn’t already been completely scuttled.
I mean shit the guy has done a fuck ton of crime. He’s already a felon, which means the kid gloves can come off for future sentencing.
I don’t think any of the cases are a slam dunk victory and then prison, but there are an awful lot of options.
I won’t vote in the US election but I think Walz is quite a solid candidate. If I was a US citizen, I’d vote Democrat but the VP pick wouldn’t really make a difference there.
I'm just happy they didn't double down and pick the IDF guy.
I feel like the Democratic party is, slowly and gradually as is its nature, learning its fucking lesson. If they went far enough to actually stop supporting genocide, that might be nice.
I was cautiously optimistic about Harris before, now I’m regular optimistic. Walz seems like a good dude who will appeal to working class voters, having been a schoolteacher and a union member, and able to be folksy with a genuine-ness that DJT and JD couchfucker couldn’t muster in a dozen lifetimes.