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Is "female" offensive?

I am not a native English speaker and I have sometimes referred to people as male and female (as that is what I have been taught) but I have received some backlash in some cases, especially for the word “female”, is there some negative thought in the word which I am unaware of?

I don’t know if this is the best place to ask, if it’s not appropriate I have no problem to delete it ^^

johannesvanderwhales ,

Mostly just by association. It sounds very incel-y.

pingveno ,

And the infamously misogynistic Ferengi.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Humons just don’t understand Ferengi culture.

FatTony ,
@FatTony@discuss.online avatar

How about: “The weaker sex” instead?

dudinax ,

How about “the fairer sex”?

BirdEnjoyer ,

Can you give us more context?

"Woman" is almost always preferred because it respects one's personal identity, as opposed to the compulsory status of biological sex, which is often used as a source of belittlement and/or bigotry against women. (and carries a whole plethora of baggage when people decide they get to judge someone's female-ness)

But it doesn't mean that you shouldn't generally be able to use the term "female" without causing social friction, if you have a good amount of social grace.

(its actually quite normal in fantasy/scifi circles, for example)

I think you may be asking the wrong question- you may want to explain what you were talking about and ask what specific phrases or situations might have unsettled people.

Maybe it was just a weirdly specific English faux pas, or maybe you have a friend who is a little extra sensitive after bad experiences and who could use your support. Maybe its a total miscommunication- who knows?

liv ,
@liv@lemmy.nz avatar

I mean I’m not exactly offended by it, but if someone uses it that’s a “note to self, this person is most likely misogynist” moment for sure.

BirdEnjoyer ,

Yeah, its a red flag.
They indicate potential problems, which is why you look for multiple, but even one obvious one is enough to make you a bit cautious, it makes sense.

But if its someone I know, and who isn't a native English speaker and is pretty chill, I'm probably going to let it slide for a couple uses, then gently ask them why they're using a certain term in a nice pause in the conversation.

I'm lucky to have had friends from lots of other places, but it can make things so awkward with corrections, even if it has to be done.
But people can absolutely wind up learning horrendously out of date language without meaning any malice. I've seen it happen because of confusion regarding the existence of the NAACP, and the use of the term, "People of Color."

The way OP is talking makes it sound like he could likely talk it out with the other people, and I think that may be the best option. (though I can understand why they may want some insight from the internet first)

liv ,
@liv@lemmy.nz avatar

I think you’re right.

I used to teach first year undergraduates and the first time they heard the American term “people of colour” invariably led to a lot of confusion and offence because many of them (especially PoC themselves) initially thought it was insulting.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

male/female usually used for animals, for humans usage of man/woman would be the right way

Harbinger01173430 ,

Humans are animals though. Why do they get offended when they get reminded of that fact? Smh, this is why us members of the galactic community don’t like your species too much. /S

arin ,

Kinda like how ignorant people only thing humans have consciousness while more and more studies show capability in many animals

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Maybe that’s how you animals in your “galactic community” operate, but be careful… a lot of people in these parts eat animals for breakfast. For your own self preservation you might want to come up with some reasons why you’re more than just an animal before we get to barbecue season.

Harbinger01173430 ,

Alright. Time to change living conditions to ‘livestock’. I think some of you do it in your space simulator games. /S

Classy ,

I disagree. Male/female is used plenty with humans, but it tends to be used in a more clinical or ‘objective’ manner, such as in legal documents, autopsy reports, police suspect descriptions, things of that sort.

I think the use of, e.g., “Look at those four males over there”, it has a bit of a connotation of separation of the personhood of the people involved. A man is a living, thinking being; he is worthy of dignity, and he has a soul. A ‘male’ can almost be called an ‘it’: it has a characterization of cold, scientific classification.

arin ,

Don’t bring science to feminism!

WalrusDragonOnABike ,

A ‘male’ can almost be called an ‘it’: it has a characterization of cold, scientific classification.

But that’s the issue: its dehumanizing and that’s done intentionally. The use case you mention seems to just be an extension of its usage for livestock rather than an exception. But its an exception to it being used in a misogynistic way while still being a noun.

Toneswirly ,

Context is important. If I say: “Sexual dimorphism is when a species has two distinct sexes, male and female,” I dont think many would find that rude. Now, if I say “Im so sick of females telling me what to do” you might get some cocked eyebrows.

intensely_human ,

Everything is offensive to someone.

jbrains , (edited )

Many people consider it dehumanizing. Others interpret as a signal of at least insensitivity and at most conscious dehumanizing. It can feel threatening outside certain specific contexts and that depends much on how much you trust the person saying it.

I find it outmoded and jarring. I know people who say it as part of everyday speech and I trust them but I’d prefer it if they spoke differently and I think they’re projecting an image worse than they merit.

I don’t call things offensive or not, because that oversimplifies the matter. I would find “male” and “female” useful as nouns when I want to refer to biological sex specifically and not confuse it with gender. I would also find the adjectives “manly” and “womanly” useful to refer to gender instead of using “male” and “female”. But as long as enough other people feel threatened by some of those words in a neutral context where they don’t already trust me, it seems wise to me to be aware of that and not use those words that way.

The whole idea of saying “a white” instead of “a white man” is merely a habit we picked up from Latin, anyway.

Omega_Haxors ,

It’s as offensive as “black” is. If you call someone female that’s fine. If you call someone a female, you’re going to look like an incel.

intensely_human ,

It’s dehumanizing.

Like when the cops are on the lookout for a six foot white male, it’s okay because cops dehumanize their suspects as a matter of course.

Umbrella8335 ,

I understand your pain. My home language doesn’t even have separate words for woman and female, or male and man.

intensely_human ,

How do you refer to a female animal?

sparky ,
@sparky@lemmy.federate.cc avatar

What language, if you don’t mind me asking? I’m interested in linguistics and this seems like an interesting tangent.

MinekPo1 ,
@MinekPo1@lemmy.ml avatar

not OP but in Polish there is no word for boyfriend or girlfriend, you just say boy or girl which is kinda funny. however because Polish has grammatical gender, you can say boy friend/girl friend and even enby friend, thanks to neoforms! (przyjaciel, przyjaciółka, przyjacioło)

though note that partner is also gendered (partner, partnerka, partnerze)

IanAtCambio ,

It depends on if you’re handsome or not

Omega_Haxors ,

Learn what consent is and then have your mom sign you up for therapy.

TheBananaKing ,

Female as an adjective is perfectly fine.

A female patient, a female politician, a female customer, etc. That’s the best way to refer to those.

What’s bad is using ‘female’ as a noun: “A female. "

In general, you just don’t use adjectives-as-nouns to refer to people. You don’t call someone “a gay”, “a black”, or “a Chinese”. That is offensive, and “a female” has the same kind of feel.

(there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German”, but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it)

Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.

Silentiea ,

except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo

Sounds more like a terf or “gender critical” person, but maybe that’s just my experience.

TheBananaKing ,

Fair.

maryjayjay ,

“the suspect is a six foot, white male”

Sounds fine to me

Queen___Bee , (edited )

I think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting. Similar to how documentation is done for other professions, like healthcare. If it’s out of the context of reporting, or other situations listed in the site below, it sounds grammatically strange or rude.

myenglishgrammar.com/…/adjectives-function-as-nou…

Source: I’m in healthcare.

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/legalcode.en

intensely_human ,

“the suspect is a six foot, white male"

think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting

No they don’t. The word “male” is the noun here.

Why did people upvote that?

Silentiea ,

Because it’s still acting as a descriptor rather than an identifier, despite playing the syntactic role of a noun instead of an adjective. It’s more about semantics in this case than syntax.

intensely_human ,

No it is playing the syntactic role of a noun. An object is a noun.

Silentiea ,

I know it’s playing the syntactic role of a noun, that’s what I said. But it’s playing the semantic role of a descriptor. The “thing” being described here is a suspect, one that is white and also male, as opposed to a male who is white and also suspected.

Syntactically, the word male was a noun. But semantically, it’s still just describing the suspect, rather than identifying the thing to be described.

irmoz ,

“Suspect” is the noun

Zagorath ,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Both are nouns. Suspect is the subject, male is the object. You could replace it with, for example “the suspect is a cat”, and I think we can all agree “cat” is a noun. “six foot” and “white” are the adjectives in that sentence.

humorlessrepost ,

Both are nouns there. Suspect is the subject.

intensely_human ,

So you don’t think this argument would hold up if they said “Police are searching for a six foot white male”?

Paradachshund ,

“I was just visiting my friend, a six foot white male”

A little weirder. Context is everything.

ArcaneSlime ,

Well yeah, why would I need a description of your friend unless it pertains to an upcoming story, and why not use his name if you know it? The cop can’t usually say “It was Steve what done it” because most places aren’t Mayberry.

Silentiea ,

Because the police never try to dehumanize “suspects” and “perpetrators”.

mdhughes ,
@mdhughes@lemmy.ml avatar

Cops (ACAB) are not a good example for moral treatment of others.

vzq ,

Besides, this is basically jargon. That has its own set of rules.

CanadaPlus ,

And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.

I’d just like to emphasise this. It’s not that using a different term is intrinsically bad, it’s just that the people who tend to do it are not cool and you don’t want to look like you’re associated with them.

Dirk ,
@Dirk@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.

CanadaPlus ,

If it has negative connotations, it’s not a perfectly fine word.

Pulptastic ,

Negative connotations to whom? If those described do not like the term it should not be used. Basic human dignity, just like using one’s preferred pronouns.

CanadaPlus ,

I don’t think your disagreeing with me here.

Silentiea ,

Welcome to language my friend. Always has, always will.

vzq ,

It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.

That’s how association works

I can have the best and most lasting solution to a problem ever, but my company still won’t allow me to put “THE FINAL SOLUTION” in marketing copy.

And they shouldn’t.

Dirk ,
@Dirk@lemmy.ml avatar

So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?

vzq ,

So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?

Do you even hear yourself?

Engage in good faith or sod off.

jjjalljs ,

The VP of product messaged me a couple weeks ago after some back and forth about some work. She asked if I had some time to talk about the final solution. I went “uhhhh so long as we don’t call it that”

I’m like 90% sure she had no idea why that phrase is reserved.

Quastamaza ,

Meanwhile, you are perfectly ok with judging someone based uniquely on which term they tend to use? Oh my, mankind is really going down the drain…

CanadaPlus ,

Yes. Life is a game of trying to guess which people are full of shit. If they say “feeeemales” and then turn out to be fine, great, I’ll probably give them a heads up not to do that.

Was there a non-judgmental era I’m unaware of?

Quastamaza ,

Ok, fine, I’ll “try to guess” too then, if that’s your game. Goodbye!

CanadaPlus ,

Bye-bye.

NikkiDimes ,

Yes. Language can show what sort of media people consume and the sorts of groups they socialize with, especially when it comes to the internet.

If someone is using incel language, there will be a strong initial assumption they spend time within incel circles consuming toxic content like Andrew Tate and will remain under that assumption until proven otherwise. Sorry, not sorry?

dandroid ,

When I was growing up, saying woman was offensive, because it made people feel old. So we would say “girl”. But now It’s flipped. Saying “girl” makes people feel too young, apparently.

I’m still kind of adjusting. The word “woman” still feels icky to me because I was berated for saying it as a kid.

CanadaPlus ,

Huh, interesting. Which generation are you from, out of curiosity?

dandroid ,

I’m a millennial. It could also have been regional as well, I have no clue.

pr06lefs ,

Interesting point with adjectives vs nouns.

‘a Frenchman’ would be more correct than ‘a French’. Because French is only an adjective, while American and German are both nouns and adjectives. But Frenchman is not gender neutral like German or American.

Could go with Francophone, but that’s any french speaking person so that includes canadians, africans, etc.

And, it would seem to make sense to go with Frank, but the Franks were originally germans, then expanded their territory to include France, and the name stuck there but not in their original territory, so is it really correct to refer to the French as Franks? Since no one does it, I would guess not.

Mr_Blott ,

includes canadians

Pffft barely, mon ami 😂

Silentiea ,

Québécois then.

amelia ,

Not a native speaker here. Would a French woman also be 'a Frenchman’s and if not, how would you refer to a French woman correctly?

locuester ,

3 years ago, “man” in that context was considered gender neutral. More recently tho a lot of stink is being made about little language things like this. Theres no replacement word to use.

Silentiea ,

Frenchwoman and Frenchperson are both ridiculous enough to try, but maybe go with Frenchie just to see if they’ll punch you.

Vanth , (edited )
@Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    amelia ,

    Wow, this actually sounds very plausible.

    locuester ,

    Sensitivities during Covid ran high. A lot of things changed then. For instance in the software world removing the name “master” from git usage, and on the TV Show Survivor, the host not saying his famous line “come on in guys”. At the same time pronouns became a huge thing, and these seemingly gender specific or sensitive word terms were targeted.

    You are correct, there was a round of this in the 90s or so, where job titles like “waitress”, “stewardess”, “policeman” were all adjusted. I see that as a very different round of language change.

    Vanth , (edited )
    @Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    locuester , (edited )

    Yeah, 2020 is the time period I’m referring to. I had never heard of it being a thing until George Floyd and BLM movement in 2020, then GitHub changed in response to that.

    I’ve been in IT for 35 years. And I never heard a single negative thing about branch names and master/slave terminology until 2020.

    Perhaps you think that was set aside because IDE hard drives are dead.

    Vanth , (edited )
    @Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    locuester ,

    All this sensitivity being mainstream is new to me. It came from all angles in all aspects of life very suddenly.

    Yes you can find some things happening in the past, but sweeping changes were made in the 2020-2022 timeframe.

    That fact doesn’t minimize anyone’s prior efforts, thoughts, feelings, actions, movements, or otherwise. The attempts to fix the English collective masculine date back to 1795.

    As early as 1795, dissatisfaction with the convention of the collective masculine led to calls for gender-neutral pronouns, and attempts to invent pronouns for this purpose date back to at least 1850, although the use of singular they as a natural gender-neutral pronoun in English has persisted since the 14th century.

    pr06lefs ,

    “Frenchwoman” perhaps? But that sounds a bit dated to me. I’d probably go with “French person” or “French people”.

    intensely_human ,

    there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it

    And yet here you are confidently expounding exactly how this works. Why, if you know you don’t understand, are you weighing in on this like you’re an authority on it?

    ArcaneSlime ,

    Tbh I think it’s just because it sounds bad phonetically, since “a Frenchman” or “an Englishman” are both acceptable as well, but “a French” or “An English” just sounds dumb. Of course you can only do that to white countries, don’t try it with China.

    Silentiea ,

    Because fluent speakers of a language know the rules even if they don’t understand them. Why can you have a big green dog but not a green big dog? Because that’s the way the language works.

    Zagorath ,
    @Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

    To be slightly more specific, you can have a “green big dog”, but it does not convey the same idea as a “big green dog”. The latter is by far the more normal, and it conveys any dog which is both big and green. The former implies the existence of “big dog” as a specific known thing, like “big dog” is a category of its own more than merely a dog that is big.

    As a general rule though, yes, follow the adjective order guidelines. There’s some fuzziness with it, but “opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun” should be used.

    Silentiea ,

    Yeah, but if I ask a third grader which way is right, they’ll know and they won’t be able to tell you why. This is normal.

    Anamnesis ,

    You can soften “a black” or “a Chinese” entirely by adding “person” to the end of it. English is weird.

    TheBananaKing ,

    Right, because that makes it an adjective.

    seliaste ,
    @seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    That’s werid because in french that’s not what we use in everyday life. We say “Un japonais” for example, not “Une personne japonaise” which kinda sounds unnecessary

    ripcord ,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.

    I generally disagree and it seems fine and not disrespectful at all. But it’s somehat less up to me - I’m not a female.

    Kazumara ,

    My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.

    Using a noun as an adjective is just weird, honestly.

    investorsexchange ,
    @investorsexchange@lemmy.ca avatar

    I think that a good rule of thumb is: would you say “male doctor” or “male politician”? If not, is the professional’s gender relevant? Probably not, in which case it sounds pejorative to include it.

    ripcord ,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    In some cases I would, and I would find it awkward to say “man doctor” or “man politician”. I don’t think it works at all, and I disagree with her that this really is the way most people try to avoid the naming.

    But, kinda like pronoun; I guess I try to listen and be sensitive on things like how women and minorities saybtheyre sensitive about, including labels and etc.

    Quastamaza ,

    Oh dear… And why isn’t “a male” just as bad? And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun? Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”? Is it something to feel shame about? Bah. It’s really beyond me. Thank god i live in Italy, where this kind of stuff still struggles to gain traction, but alas it will do eventually, since hey, you know, we’re all living in america after all. What’s more, it’s not entirely true: now you can get scolded even for using female as an adjective (it happened to me more than once), my friend. And it’ll get worse, just you wait and see.

    Kazumara ,

    And why isn’t “a male” just as bad?

    It is.

    And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun?

    Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.

    Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”?

    Because those are characteristics of their chosen functions.

    It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.

    Quastamaza ,

    It is.

    Okay, that’s your opinion, not mine. If opinions still exist, that is.

    Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.

    And having innate characteristics is horrible… unbelievable. I must be really old.

    It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.

    Ok, you’re right, you’re reeeally smart. Well done. I quit, have the last say.

    TheBananaKing ,

    “I had coffee with one of the males at work”

    “There’s a male waiting for you downstairs”

    “I need to see a male about a dog”

    All of them would be weird as fuck, and yes, they’d sound demeaning. They don’t have the same weird-incel vibe, but that’s just an accident of culture.

    RBWells ,

    Right. This is the best way to figure out if it sounds weird.

    If you would use “man” then the word to use is “woman”. If you would use “male” then “female”.

    So if someone asks is the doctor male or female? No problem. Even if they ask “is the doctor a male or a female?” Still no problem. Kinda odd but certainly not offensive.

    The problem arises when someone says “men and females” that does sound weird and kinda insulting. As would “women and males”.

    If you would use the word man, use woman.

    If you would use the word male, use female.

    SpaceCowboy ,
    @SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

    Typical male behavior!

    There’s no reason for you to feel attacked by the previous sentence, right?

    xmunk ,

    Unless you’re a ferengi. /s

    I think a big part that’s skeevy to me is that gender and sex are comparatively unimportant individual traits, referring to someone by their gender happens far more often for women and it’s a hold over of misogyny. There are much more interesting individual traits that identify us than our sex or presented gender.

    ComradeKhoumrag ,
    @ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub avatar

    And that’s why I say “bruh”

    I’m probably the only person to not use that word like a frat douche, I just like calling my guy friends bro and I tried calling my female friends bro and they didn’t find that funny so now everyone gets bruh’d

    Wanderer ,

    Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.

    We did have a word that meant that and everyone knew it. But that word has changed into something else.

    NikkiDimes ,

    You okay buddy?

    Wanderer ,

    Female person doesn’t mean women.

    The word has changed so it’s not correct to say that.

    Zoomboingding ,
    @Zoomboingding@lemmy.world avatar

    Unless you’re someone’s doctor, it’s almost never relevant to discuss someone’s sex. Gender is how we refer to people in most contexts, and when it’s important (e.g. discussing pregnancy) it’s not rude to make a distinction.

    Wanderer ,

    I’m talking about this

    we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”

    Zoomboingding ,
    @Zoomboingding@lemmy.world avatar

    Except “woman” has always meant “adult presenting as female”

    dankm ,

    Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.

    I’m going to nitpick a touch. “Female person” includes girls. “Women” ecludes them.

    carl_dungeon ,

    It’s kind of like the difference between talking about people who are black and referring to someone as “one of the blacks”. It’s subtle, but the latter is objectifying where as the former is descriptive.

    intensely_human ,

    It’s even more subtle than that. We’ve defeated most actual injustice in our society, and now people are scraping the bottom of the barrel to find injustice to fight against.

    Anamnesis ,

    I have some bad news to tell you about capitalism

    Hadriscus ,

    hmmm, that’s an assessment I can’t get behind, lol

    SmokeInFog ,
    @SmokeInFog@midwest.social avatar

    This is the dumbest thing I’ve read this year.

    Cowbee ,
    @Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

    It’s dehumanizing. Use woman, girl, person.

    doublejay1999 ,
    @doublejay1999@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s not negative per se , but quite impolite, not least because a woman is so much more than her gender.

    quindraco ,

    Female as an adjective is inoffensive everywhere, but you will run into problems in some contexts because its definition is currently in flux and different people will mean different things by it.

    Female as a noun has the same changing definition deal, and also some online misogynists use it as a pejorative. It isn’t one, but they use it as one. As a corollary, some others on the internet have chosen to be offended by the term.

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