When I first tried it (back in 2010) it was pretty rough all around but after trying it again recently due to the whole TPM requirement for Windows 11 I’ve found it to be really straight forward
Linux Mint is really user friendly and is what I’ve even put on my grandma’s pc
Your grandma probably hates the fact that you did though. There’s a small chance that’s not the case but I’d be shocked if she hadn’t complained about it many times to other people.
If you trust Zoom enough, then you can install its official client from its webpage, without “a whole ass sandbox program” that restricts its access to important parts of your system.
But it’s your call, I prefer the other way around.
You say that but at the same time there’s a linuxmemes post in my feed right now where people are joking about how broken drivers require an OS reinstall so you know
Also there are distros that are more volatile, but all of the most popular ones are extremely dummy proof and intuitive. See Pop_OS!, EndeavourOS, or Mint for example.
Your grandma would hate and complain about upgrading from Win10 to Win11 just the same, though. Everyone hates change itself. What the change is made to doesn’t really matter.
People do hate change. The bigger the change the more they hate it. That’s exactly why Windows to Linux is much worse for them than Windows 10 to Windows 11.
People in my family are straight forward and blunt with their opinions and how they feel about things. She did mention it was weird looking but she was willing to try it out because her system was going to be insecure before the end of next year.
She’s had no complaints so far in the last few months.
I think it is pretty grandma-proof; less is more. Windows xp-like start menu with no web results or other nonsense there, just internet button, picture viewer, and solitaire. Updates can be automated and there’s no easy way to break the ui, like accidentally removing the task bar.
It’s not that it hasn’t gotten better, but that the entire infrastructure that’s underpinning the GUI is simply completely different than what people are used to. And I’m not just talking CLI here, because the average Windows user likely doesn’t use that to begin with – it’s things like filesystem organization, software management, driver installation, configuration files, etc.
And it’s not that these barriers are insurmountable either, but they DO require a significant amount of cognitive effort that not everyone is willing to put in.
It isn’t impenetrable. ChromeOS and Android are Linux based after all. If you don’t want to be prayed upon by Google you can use things like UBlue (inc. Aurora, Bazzite), PopOS, or Mint.
The advantage of PopOS and UBlue being you can download an image with Nvidia drives pre installed.
PopOS is a very mac like interface so you might not like it. Otherwise it’s pretty much install and go, has good community support, and even comes pre installed on some high end machines.
In the case of UBlue they include images for specific manufacturers of laptops like ASUS, Framework, and Microsoft surface. You also get fully automatic atomic upgrades with rollback in case of failure, similar to Chrome OS. This means even if you do something very stupid like reboot in the middle of an OS update, it won’t matter. It’s engineered to be almost unbreakable even for new Linux users thanks to being partly immutable. You get a choice as well between varieties for normal users called Aurora, one of gamers called Bazzite, a development one called Bluefin, and a server version too. Being based on Fedora it’s also reasonably up to date as well, but without sacrificing stability like Arch does.
Linux Mint is the classic easy to use Linux that runs on most computers made in the last 10 years and often older. It does sometimes struggle on newer machines with drivers though as it’s not using an up to date kernel. What it’s good for is that it pretty much just works when you have it installed and set up. It’s popular so you should get plenty of community support. It’s a quite similar interface to Windows while arguably looking better and definitely using less resources.
I don’t think a casual user would in many cases even be able to tell the difference. I mean you have a desktop with some icons which most of people only use to start the browser which is absolutely identical in both systems.
You have a start menu with other programs and you have a task bar which shows the open programs and some status icons and a clock.
It is really not that different. Most people just start a browser and go on Facebook or eBay or whatever, use a simple word processor for the daily needs. I don’t think they would be able to tell the difference.
The only real limiting factor is that most computers that you just walk into a store and buy (and are not made by Apple) come with Windows, and people just use whatever comes with their computers.
People rarely switch even default settings, let alone the entire OS.
I’m sure if computers came with Linux, there wouldn’t be that many complaints from casual users after they got used to it.
The hardest people to switch over are the Windows power users in my experience.
There are vendors who sell laptops that come pre-installed with Linux. Only thing is that they’re a bit more niche. Dell is probably the biggest name who sells computers with Linux as an optional OS on their website, but IIRC they brand it as “developer editions”.
Otherwise, you get vendors like System76, Tuxedo, Purism, etc. (Maybe Framework, but IDR if they even install an OS)
I still don’t think that you can walk into a store and buy any of the above.
Not that installing Linux is difficult; in fact, it’s easier than installing Windows IMO. Most distros come with easy-to-use graphical installers with easy-to-understand language, even for newbies. They also come with a live environment that lets you try out the distro before installing it. Thing is, most people aren’t even going to bother trying it.
I’ve heard this a few times lately. It makes me curious how recent the impenetrable experience was.
I’m shocked at the idea that an average Windows user who tried this year’s version of Debian Stable would find it even mildly confusing, much less impenetrable.
I switch between Windows 10 and Debian 12 Stable, daily.
I find that, on Debian, all the expected features are in the same spots, acting the same ways.
Disclaimer: I don’t have an Nvidia graphics card to cause me headaches.
And I do understand that depending on hardware, installation can be tough. That’s true with Windows, too, of course. At least installation doesn’t have to be an issue for new purchases, since enough PCs can now ship with either pre-installed.
Same. Never had a problem. I installed Linux Mint and it simply worked correctly without any modifications. Quite a bit of care is taken with the UX which is outstanding considering it’s a volunteer project.
Quite a bit of care is taken with the UX which is outstanding considering it’s a volunteer project.
Yeah. I am frequently delighted by excellent usability experiences on modern Linux!
Maybe I’m biased, since it’s so much better than when I started. But I still have a Windows 10 PC for my work, and - while the usability on Windows 10 is no slouch - I honestly would have a hard time saying which is better, overall, now. (Ignoring, for the sake of discussion, really obvious anipatterns like the start menu ads in Windows.)
I’d say it’s really easy. The only requirement is making a choice to use something else, which most unfortunately is already asking too much for the vast majority of users.
It’s just a little different nowadays. Like the other user said, they just don’t know they have a choice or what to choose and follow whatever they know…
And what was one of the early bolsheviks’ regime strongest points? They created schools and made people literate en masse, and did it with their own curriculum. People became less suspective to ex elites and religious propaganda, and became their target audience.
Adobe, Google, MS give discounts and special programs for education because this way people get used to their products. Many local organizations that touch these casual users don’t have a real IT department and just flow with what’s given, they don’t make an informed choice like corporations. And that’s probably the place where this switch may even start to begin. A class of students who started with e.g. KDE Plasma would be used to it more than they used to Windows, same with other software. They can already do their homework and play most games. What else do they need?
The sharp corner is to find money to fund select schools to show others it’s not scary and makes it even cheaper for them in the long run, maybe some special troubleshooting team to teach them the ropes. I’ve heard from some users there and on reddit that their computer classes with a geeky teacher who installed Linux is how they’ve rolled in without a problem.
I figured on my gaming and VR rig that I’d begrudgingly upgrade it to W11 when W10 stopped receiving security updates and support but at this point the recall feature (which will be used to train LLMs regardless of what Microsoft promises or guarantees) has ensured that I never install that kind of spyware as an operating system.
I’d rather spend forever troubleshooting and getting my Valve Index to work with Ubuntu than deal with a giant backdoor.
I wouldn’t go for Ubuntu. They are also run by a corporation that has done problematic things with the project. It also just doesn’t work that well anymore. Better off going for something Debian or Fedora based, or even an Ubuntu derivative like Pop OS.
It’s Debian-based, but Canonical has been really Microsofty about its development. They now have Snap as a universal packaging format, and have mandated that all official Ubuntu flavors (so X/K/Lubuntu and others, but not derivatives like Mint) must include Snap, and must not include Flatpak in the default installation. They’ve also fucked with APT where installing certain packages, like Firefox, would first install Snap and then the application’s Snap package, without even telling the user. They’ve had some controversy with Amazon ads in the search results, and advertising Ubuntu Pro in the fucking terminal. The default GNOME desktop also has a ton of issues.
I, and many others, recommend against Ubuntu. Linux Mint is the most commonly recommended “just works” distro. That being said, switching to Ubuntu, if able, is still preferable to staying on Windows.
I agree most of this is fucked up, though I don’t know what search results you mean. Also, I always find it funny that people refer to the Ubuntu pro thing as “ads”. Yes it technically is, but it is a fuck ton less shitty than what we’ve come to know as ads in literally every other context. It’s literally a couple lines of text about packages you can get premium updates and support for
IIRC: about decade ago Ubuntu (still with its own Unity DE) processed system search in a way it shoveled amazon ads to users in first places. Or something lime that.
It’s like the “nazi bar” anecdote. It always starts small. You let in a bit of ads, a bit of self-promotion, then the revenue reaches a plateau. You let in a little more ads, maybe a pop-up saying that you could be more secure. Then a few years later you have a Recall situation. If you let one nazi drink at your bar, he’ll bring his friends, and you’ll be running a nazi bar.
It varies. I struggle with its interface personally. I also had to force it to switch to Wayland to get some things working reliably. The hybrid graphics mode has issues too using the GPU when it doesn’t need to. Other than that it works reasonably well out of the box, though you still occasionally have to deal with headaches from apt. A lot of the issues will hopefully be fixed when the cosmic desktop is ready. Some more can be fixed if they end up going immutable, which I believe they are working on right now. The Ubuntu version is also kinda old.
Personally I would rather be on NixOS or Fedora right now, or UBlue’s Aurora. I am probably not a good candidate to be running something like Pop OS though. I am too experienced and my needs and wants are too complex for the poor thing.
I am sure you’re right about at least most of this but I will say my experience hasn’t been very troublesome. Other than a driver issue I had after an update 2 years ago, I haven’t had much trouble. Since I switched to an amd GPU especially, since gaming is much smoother. I had a lot worse issues when I used Elementary OS. Stuff broke a ton. For example, I had a weird graphical issue in Firefox for months.
Are you talking about a desktop? I am on a laptop with Intel iGPU and Nvidia dGPU. The battery life in Windows isn’t great, but it actually seems worse in Pop OS. I did actually catching it using the dGPU when it shouldn’t be. Obviously Nvidia doesn’t help things, and I am glad it works as well as it does. Still it’s kind of sad. I might buy a second laptop just so I can have battery life that isn’t horrible.
Cosmic desktop from my understanding will have a better implementation of the hybrid graphics mode to stop this nonsense.
Yeah, desktops. I do think though that the Intel/Nvidia combo you have makes Linux in general a bit tougher than any setup more Linux friendly than that.
Very common setup sadly, actually the second laptop I have had like this. I can’t imagine AMD + Nvidia is much better though, as Intel graphics has great support on Linux. KDE was probably a better bet, and I would have to change distro to get KDE 6.
I would also suggest not Ubuntu, and instead say you should give Bazzite a try. They are specifically interested in gaming with Steam (they even have a spin for running on Steam Deck). They might have already put in the work troubleshooting the distro with your VR gear.
A lot of people here seem to be missing the nuance.
Sure, it’s problematic for their consumer market share, but you’re right that that’ll probably be forgotten by the mostly tech-illiterate populace over time. But that’s not the problem.
Step 0 of MS’s plan for this should have been “make sure there is an absolutely bulletproof and ironclad way to disable that stuff completely for enterprise customers”. And they didn’t do that. So now, enterprise IT writ large is going to… you know… just not buy any of these devices. Which is absolutely their right.
But the really frustrating bit is that MS may have significantly harmed the rollout of ARM-based laptops (as well as x86 chips with beefy NN-optimized tiles) with this, and additionally done real, massive harm to Intel, AMD, and Qualcomm by doing so. All three of those manufacturers have gone to ENORMOUS lengths to roll this tech out, largely at MS’s behest. They’re all going to take this on the chin if the rollout goes poorly. And the rollout is already going poorly.
But MS thought they could Apple-handwave away the details. And they can’t, because a lot of people who understand the absurd security implications of continuous capture and OCR and plaintext storage of the OCR output. It’s not something you can handwave away. It’s entirely a non-starter in the context of maintaining organizational security (as well as personal data security, but we’ve already talked about why that’s a bit of a moot point with the general public). But enterprise IT largely does try to take their job seriously, and they are collectively calling MS’s bluff.
The problem for the long term is that MS has pretty much proven to the IT industry with this stunt that they can’t be trusted to make software that conforms to their needs. That’s a stain that isn’t going to go away any time soon. It might even be the spark that finally triggers enterprise to move away from MS as a primary client OS. After all, Linux is WAY easier to manage from a security perspective.
TL;DR: the issue is that MS has significantly damaged their reputation with this stunt. And you can’t buy reputation.
It’s definitely a move in the right direction… but it also begs the question of why didn’t they do that in the first fucking place? Seriously, some heads are gonna roll over how badly this whole release was planned, and the very clear lack of due diligence.
For anyone for whom Micro$oft’s reputation wasn’t already cartoonish villainy, sure.
For those of us from the olde worlde, who marveled at dancing monkey boy on a grainy quicktime file, it’s absolutely par for the course. They can shutter everything but cloud tomorrow and still rake in 100 Billion a year for the foreseeable future. It was a monopoly thirty years ago (convicted 20 years ago) that has eaten and shat whatever and wherever it wanted for decades.
The judiciary and congress don’t understand shit, and if they did m$ bought them. Done.
Microsoft has built a number of safety features into Windows Recall to ensure that the service can’t run secretly in the background. When Windows Recall is enabled, it places a permanent visual indicator icon on the Taskbar to let the user know that Windows Recall is capturing data. This icon cannot be hidden or moved.
Or what? Your computer will take out a club and beat you to death?
You can’t convince me someone couldn’t do it with a simple registry edit, or even just replace the icon with something else by swapping an icon file somewhere in Windows/
Nobody cares! Well a few people care that make a big fuss, but most people don’t ever think about their os. I bet a pretty big percentage don’t know what os they use and I bet more than half don’t know what version of the os they are using.
This. Normal users give zero shit, they neither understand nor care about any of this. If they can use a cool feature they will. How many use Facebook again? What do they care about privacy? Exactly.
They lost trust from some niche <10 %, that’s it, from which most use/want to use Linux anyway.
Sure, would be great. Like many other things, including far more important topics. But that is not the world we live in. The head line is simply nonsense and it will break absolutely for Microsoft.
They don’t care, but their nephew that has to fix the PC is it acts up cares, and when the nephew says he’s not touching that thing with a 10 foot pole they’ll consider that for their next purchase.
And if in the news there is an article that thanks to copilot they could identify the culprit in a crime, they’ll look at any Windows version and their stroking material in a map on that drive a little different.
Haha I thought I recognized that username. The same person arguing with me that recall was a brilliant move which will solidify Microsoft as the industry leader they’ve always been 😂
Ya, a PR nightmare for the next 15 minutes until the next unbelievable thing comes along and the ADD nature of people forgets windows is watching everything they do.
That’s usually what I think too, but after watching how Twitter’s gone to shit since the two big user departures, I think this could legitimately affect Microsoft’s bottom line.
That will rely on businesses moving away from Windows. That is where they make a ton of their money with Enterprise licenses and Office 365 subscriptions.
We handle a lot of IP on our Windows PCs so it’s debatable. However, in recent years, Microsoft has taken over most of our services with SSO, office 360, teams, etc so who knows.
If you look at sysadmin forums and groups it seems like most recommend disabling recall. Just about every enterprise will have confidentiality, security, or legislative requirements that recall is simply inconsistent with. It’s understandably been a hot topic.
Twitter is a great example of the exact opposite being true. Are people upset? Absolutely. Did they leave the platform? Nope. Maybe a small percentage.
Number of users doesn’t matter because most people don’t close their accounts. Twitter’s actual usage and traffic is down by 20% since Elmo took over and their revenue is also massively down.
Bruh are you for real? The article linked is about “user departures”. What does that even mean? It doesn’t even have any sources for any of the information provided.
Is this how you respond when you have no idea WTF you’re talking about?
Twitter definitely lost a ton of users and tons continue to leave. That’s why advertisers have pulled out and their stock price has tanked. Twitter is a bad example
Twitter definitely lost a ton of users and tons continue to leave.
Define “tons”? As a percentage, it is miniscule, and it remains the place where politicians, companies and other entities make public announcements. It’s also, for some reason, the only platform supported for customer support from various companies.
I think advertisers have made some impacts to the bottom line, too. I don’t have any direct evidence for this, but I used to get ads for things like Pepsi. Now it’s mostly things like Larry’s Pillow Case Repair or pelvic floor steaming kits.
I believe the biggest thing that will hurt MS is moving to subscription. The vast majority of users aren’t gonna wanna have a forever fee when they buy a laptop/PC
That’s definitely going to be a problem for them, yes, because it’s also going to drive a ton of traffic to Linux and Linux is going to get even better.
A lot of people would have huge bursts of negativity about this, but at the same time remain stubborn enough to not even consider evaluating alternatives. Microsoft and Apple spent decades making sure this would work
My mom only really browses the web, writes emails, and edits and occasional document. I’ve given her my old XPS 9350, with Fedora installed on it, and she’s been very happy with it. Keeps saying that everything just makes sense, and when she needs something, it’s easy to find. She’s far from tech savvy, but not completely clueless either
I’m swapping to Linux finally because of it. Few things are black and white but these things do have effects and some additional percentage of users are shifting over because of it.
I agree with your point, but I think it’s important not to forget just how shitty tech media is a holding these companies to account. Half the shit most mainstream tech journalist publish borders on hagiography for these companies.
You’re right - many consumers will likely forget about it and just use it anyways. But enterprise customers absolutely, categorically will not. Even with their damage control, this is still going to hurt them a lot. Moreover, it’s going to hurt hardware sales from Intel, AMD, and Qualcomm, all of which have dumped MASSIVE amounts of capital into this tech. This is going to slow the rollout of NN-optimized chip tiles, and that is going to directly hit their bottom line. Microsoft hurt themselves AND the three most important hardware partners they have.
As CEO Satya Nadella described it, Windows now has a photographic memory that uses AI to triage and index everything you’ve ever done on your computer, enabling you to semantically search for things you’ve seen using natural language.
Your favorite web browser, video editor, or music streaming app of choice could release an update that begins scraping data from Windows Recall and uploading it to its own backend.
Many have already assumed the worst; that Windows Recall will eventually be used as a means to sell data to advertisers and train AI models, and that if it’s not happening today, it’s only a matter of time.
It’s a feature reserved exclusively for new PCs shipping under the Copilot+ umbrella, which means if you want to use it, you’ll have to buy a new device with a neural processing unit (NPU) that can output 40 TOPS of power first.
But there’s a very dark cloud hanging over this feature right now, and a lot of privacy conscious people are simply not going to be able to subscribe to the idea of Windows Recall in its current form.
I suspect this means we will see new features and capabilities added to Windows Recall over the coming months, along with updates to ensure the data it collects is secure on the device.
The original article contains 2,259 words, the summary contains 219 words. Saved 90%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
(It knows you, it sees all that you do) (You cant hide) (…) (You thought so much about whether or not you Could, that you didn’t think about if you should) (quite a scary thing) (to be so fully Known) (I hope that there is going to be a way to disable that)
(The bit outside the brackets is always the Entity and anything inside brackets is stuff that has nothing to do with the Entitys or is just an explanation ^^) (I am just trying to differentiate these two bits)
*That won’t be acknowledged running on my computer.
Correction. If you’re running any kind of closed source software AND haven’t disabled Intel ME (or PSP) Then this is the accurate reality shining on you illusion of reality.
Also, get you a lap shade or that 10-dimensional…whatever is still racking your body, watching you out of every camera. Every.Camera.Everywhere
Qubes. Get a another laptop. Something old and cheap. X230 or better for some basic security tools in the chip. On that front though, learn to either disable Intel ME or cough up for someone else doing so. would recommend a Librem from Purism.
If so, get a three year warranty. I don’t know about us lasting that long here but mine lasted two years before all the ports stopped working with USB going first. I sent it to them with a new NVMe and the sent me back a failure after asking me if they could wipe the drive and made me pay for the shipment. When I received it and told them about their failure, they paid for shipping the second time. Sent me someone that worked for another two years.
I quit windows two decades ago. Didn’t get into comps and GNU/Linux for 5 more years. First thing i learned about comps when I built one was GNU/Linux.
It’s not the software itself that I respect, but the philosophy of Richard Stallman. He is no less than our Messiah and he doesn’t make a single reference to a gorram thing that ain’t a tangible security concept he manifests into what makes sense.
Like I’ll ever “trust” someone I don’t know let alone some pedophiliac thief’s OS that someone wrote and even he don’t know. Despite claiming anything about its function.
So I’m trying to figure out a way to jip Microsoft. We’ve already got a way to activate windows for free, but LTSC images need to be available - because that’s where we get away from Microsoft’s bullshit.
Unless Microsoft removes access to DISM and gp, we’ll still be able to cut off that “always online” limb.
That’s not, wasn’t, and never will be free even if you don’t ritual with your Talisman, the dollar.
Closed source software isn’t about making money. That’s just a sucker tool to vacuum people that accept shit-worse-than slavery from the dollar.
Free means to ditch any and all software that some person you don’t gorram know bar one pedophile who stole everyone else’s written software and turned around selling it promising what it does. Even he doesn’t know jack fucking squat about what it really does.
If you flip that for the trust you gave over the then the news is that you’re an even more gullible sucker and it isn’t a gamble on whether or not the next software cracker will kidnap the rest of your family as well.
The life of everyone in your family will inevitably become the truth serum regenex for Steve Jobs when they unfreeze his ass. If you think he really is dead then you weren’t paying the fuck attention to his stock market vaccine six months before his ice cube.
You can’t tell the difference between an AI and a real person because your understanding of reality was fed to you by children in culture’s trap persuading you to summon the 10 dimension into the essence of your soul flux into theirs.
The obvious truth you think ain’t cuz the writer knew you would understand what the real dimensions against reality we live in are without your inability to perceive them.
It’s not difficult. You can see it. Let me throw an example of one them.
We see 4 dimensions. Height, width, Length and time right?
There’s another multidimensional track here. This is the Story. It’s a little more complicated and I’d be foolish to claim understanding of that; though I would easily say the I know a few of them. I’ve read many Sci-Fi, Fantasy and a few others.
That’s just an example. I am trying to give you understanding but if you continue to ask questions that are essentially a weapon using ignorance to attempt to smear someone who is attempting to help everyone before the Sun smite gorram planet like Mars for our universal suicide in ways we can’t begin to understand let alone describe should we actually know anything about it let alone understand anything.
In some cases, that’s still not possible for m, although my personal laptop that I use daily runs Fedora Atomic.
But I also recently reinstalled another laptop with Windows 11, promptly stripped the whole thing of all kinds of apps and services, installed a bunch of audio software, libraries, etc, to prepare a machine to be show worthy.
When the day comes and Ableton ports Live to Linux proper is when I will forego a bulk of my VST’s, but running it under wine for real-time purposes is not reliable at all - so eh. There’s Bigwig, but I got like years of Max patches that I just can’t live without, and I don’t need just a DAW. In fact, if you ask me to leave Live, I’ll tell you to fly a kite.
Same issue it’s always been, unfortunately, that vendors do not support the Linux desktop. Go bother the vendors about platform supoort. I do, frequently. In fact, time for another ticket - and this one is going to be political.
Switched to mint on my laptop a couple months ago and love it, using it full time on that system. Still need to run windows on my desktop for some audio production and VR gaming, but honestly that system is going to Mint next for the other 90% of the usage. Couldn’t believe how refined the Linux desktop experience has gotten, but then again last time I gave it a try was probably well over a decade ago :)
what specs do you have? im wondering since im planning to install it on my school laptop (lenovo thinkpad 11e 4th gen, 4gb ram, 128gb ssd, intel celeron, integrated graphics.) and in wondering if it would work somewhat fast, especially at web browsing.
yeah I just realised that fact, currently I use chromium and it is quite fast on my system so I don’t think there will be issues there. aside from that, how fast are windows programs compared to ordinary windows?
Thats a very broad question. My general thought is don’t install Linux to use Windows software. It’s gotten pretty good, to nearly same performance, but I wouldn’t count on it.
I appreciate the help, I was asking as my school laptop runs horrendously slow on windows, but when I utilise a Linux live environment, it’s suddenly bearable.
blocking the stuff you dont want (ads and tracking ) with dns blocklists and adblocker can help a bit. linux has also the option to compress the contents of the ram with Zram. i have not used it myself yet.
My apologies on the late reply, I currently have Bazzite on three devices, My main PC: Ryzen 7 3700X, RX 5600, 64Gb DDR4. My main laptop, a Lenovo E590. And my backup laptop: A Lenovo L412. So far, I prefer it over windows on all three.
And removing one of the best features, the subsystem for android. It stops making sense from many people’s perspectives and using a linux program like waydroid would probably be better than using android studio on Windows11.
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