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Modern_medicine_isnt ,

I wouldn’t be too concerned. 300k is not really that many compared to the size of the industry. And there is a ton of aging software that is falling apart due to a lack of investment. Like the airlines. And all the utilities that keep getting hacked. And hospitals. With governments starting to hold companies responsible for getting hacked, there will be jobs to rebuild hold software a plenty.

Buttons ,
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

Most work environments I’ve been in enable 1 developer to do work that requires 2 developers to maintain.

Modern_medicine_isnt ,

Yeah, or 3. Lol.

Jimmyeatsausage ,

“It’s a good time to unionize tech workers right now…”

Best time to form a union was yesterday. Next best is today.

uis ,

I remember seeing articles on habr about unionization and that it is better done now when it is eazy.

iegod ,

Is it easy? Tech salaries have crazy potential, I’m not sure I’d be willing to trade job security for the limitations on that potential that a collective agreement might impose. It’d still be a tough sell.

uis ,

Is it easy?

Relative to possible future? Sure.

the limitations on that potential that a collective agreement might impose.

I’m trying to imagine it… Trying to imagine “and salary shall not be more than xxx$/hr” in collective agreement. Sorry, I can’t.

gaifux ,

Salaries != Wages. Found the dev who needs a union lol

uis ,

I wanted to say whatever “оклад” from russian labour laws translates to. Amount of money that will be paid no matter what.

bitwolf ,

We need a tech workers union.

I understand other workforces have it worse. however we could get there if we don’t push back now.

afraid_of_zombies ,

There is one, Boeing engineers have a union. Also we have ASME and IEEE which are kinda like unions.

Chakravanti ,

There’s always been the FSF.

EnderMB ,

I work at a large tech company, and the feeling here is unlike anything I’ve ever felt before. There are a few camps:

  • Workers on visas that are utterly petrified of losing their jobs, and are struggling to plan for anything long-term, since companies that lay people off can’t file green cards for employees.
  • Workers that are just numb to everything. They don’t give a fuck, they are jaded with the bullshit their employer pulls, and work is just work.
  • People that would happily take a voluntary layoff to GTFO, spend some time with family, and potentially move to something better.

What seems to be the dominating feeling that everyone has, is that they no longer support their leaders. They feel there are too many middle-managers, they realise that their C-Suite staff are fucking useless, and the CEO’s are almost universally awful as leaders. Sundar has caused Google to nose-dive in popularity, Jassy is so ineffective that no one even knows he is CEO, Musk is a known sociopath going through a mental breakdown, Zuck bet everything on VR to mask huge privacy/product failings, and alongside all of this are dozens of CEO’s that forced employees back to the office or laid people off for bullshit reasons.

My hope from this dark time is that companies arise that focus on the employee first, learn from the mistakes made by big tech, and purposefully manoeuvre around FAANG until they are relegated to boomer tech. Until then, like most SWE’s, I’m just hoping things get better soon…

nodsocket ,

Are you referring specifically to the big, popular tech companies everyone knows about or to the whole industry? Because there are a lot of smaller companies who aren’t yet run by psychopaths, at least not any more than usual.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I trust my boss but his boss is the CEO and I think the CEO is a piece of garbage.

learningduck ,

an overpaid piece of garbage

afraid_of_zombies ,

Given that no one noticed he went on vacation for three weeks I agree.

Cosmicomical ,

To be honest that sounds like a CEO that trusts the workers, if he’s letting you guys do the f you want. Unless i misunderstood and somehow he still manages to f stuff up for you.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Maybe I just don’t really like being told what to do so I am being unfair to the guy. You do have a point.

Cosmicomical ,

But i agree that it’s basically a useless role anyway, and it’s paid 10-50x the average salary

iegod ,

I like your optimism. What would an employee first focused company look like?

EnderMB ,

I would say it would be similar to Google from the early-ish 2000’s. Lots of offices worldwide to facilitate in-office working and immigration issues, while also having freedom to work remotely if desired. Also, a structure that leads with empathy, and managers judged on not just output but employee happiness.

There was a lot of freedom in big tech over the last few years. I could transfer pretty much worldwide within a month, I could work on several different moonshot industries with no worry of losing my job (because I’d just transfer to another team), and the market was good enough that if push came to shove I could take some time off and find a new role with minimal issues. I think an employee focused company would keep that freedom, while also keeping employees happy and without fearing for their job.

Buttons ,
@Buttons@programming.dev avatar

Keep in mind the core value of most of these companies is “we have a web page”. If only all these unhappy developers could somehow create their own webpage and we could all switch to using the web page of a better company…

(Preaching to the choir here, since we’re on Lemmy. I guess nobody is making money or employing people because of Lemmy though.)

randon31415 ,

So you are telling me that there is now 300,000 tech workers now able to focus on open source projects to keep their foot in the coding door while they drive forklifts or serve McDonald while waiting on the AI hiring bots to read their resumes?

Thrashy , (edited )
@Thrashy@lemmy.world avatar

Problem being, because big tech money has so distorted the economies of the cities it’s clustered in, many of these people can only choose between finding another tech job ASAP, moving away from their industry to a lower cost metro with limited job opportunities, or imminent homelessness. Driving a forklift won’t pay the rent, and commercial real estate is so absurdly priced that there may not even be a restaurant to wait tables at.

phoneymouse ,

So they’re juicing their profit margins for a couple years. Let’s see what happens in another couple years when they failed to invest in the next things because they laid everyone off.

Asafum ,

Sorry everyone, I made the mistake of trying to better myself and get out of this blue collar hell hole existence I live in and started learning web development last year. Naturally this has to happen then lol

:P

w3dd1e ,

Same. I have a low paying white collar job that I don’t enjoy. I thought I would start learning development just in time or AI and then layoffs. It makes me feel really sick and scared for the future.

A lot of posts and videos have been put up about how it will be fine. That AI won’t take jobs and even with the layoffs, they say head counts are still up, but it feels pretty hopeless to me.

I don’t know what else to do, so I’m just going to keep trying and keep pushing myself to be a better dev. Maybe I’ll get there someday.

olympicyes ,

There are a lot of companies out there that need help with their technology. Even if AI could solve the problem, they still need someone to implement it. Keep your head up and keep working hard!

aesthelete ,

I don’t know what else to do, so I’m just going to keep trying and keep pushing myself to be a better dev. Maybe I’ll get there someday.

I mean worker unity and all, but it ain’t being better (if it ever was) that gets you ahead in this field. It’s who you know not what you know or what you’re capable of.

Nommer ,

Same. I’m literally bad luck Brian reincarnated.

Asafum ,

You can’t be if I already am! Lol

dylanTheDeveloper ,
@dylanTheDeveloper@lemmy.world avatar

Bouncing between high paid tech work and driving forklifts and lifting boxes every few years is not fun. Wish this industry was more stable

rockstarmode ,

This hasn’t been my (anecdotal) experience, or that of anyone in my network.

The industry is unstable no doubt about that, but we’ve never had trouble finding better places to land.

IMO if you’ve been in tech building your skills for a few years, you really shouldn’t have trouble finding work. '01 was weird but there was still plenty of work, especially in defense. '08 was scary but turned out to be a great time to join a startup. Sometimes it’s a lateral move instead of up, sometimes it requires relocating , but if you’ve been doing good work and building your professional network you should never have to go back to driving forklifts (unless you choose to).

rambaroo , (edited )

Are you actually in the market right now or just making stuff up? You use a lot of qualifying language in this post that makes it sound like you’re just reassuring yourself. It comes off as condescension.

There are hundreds of thousands of unemployed devs right now, plus all the scrub gold chasers trying to break into the industry. And not everyone has connections that can get them a job. Networking is still a numbers game, it isn’t magic.

rockstarmode ,

I’m not sure what qualifying language you took offense at, and I wasn’t intending to be condescending.

I admitted that my experience was indeed anecdotal, but I stand by my statements. If you’re good at what you do in tech, you have a few years of experience, and you’re willing to take take positions that differ from your comfort zone you should never be without well paying work.

I’m always in the market as you put it, even though I’m not looking to leave my current position any time soon. I did 2 interviews in the last 7 days, and I turn down offers probably once a month.

I know this isn’t how it works for everyone in tech, but once you get your career grooved it isn’t unrealistic.

WanderingVentra ,

I’m always willing to take positions different from my comfort zone but it feels like no one wants to hire me unless I have experience with all their tech stack and languages or am willing to take a pay cut. But I can’t in this environment, I have loans and a family and expensive rent and groceries to pay for. It’s kind of annoying because I actually would like to change it up lol.

rockstarmode , (edited )

I hear you, it’s always tough out there, keep at it you got this.

The reason I take multiple interviews a week even when I’m not looking change positions is because it takes that level of legwork to maintain my career.

I don’t want to sound like I’m down playing how difficult it is to succeed in our industry. It takes a bunch of work, and networking, but getting ahead if you have talent is 100% doable.

WanderingVentra ,

Thatd a good idea. I really need to do the same thing: apply and take interviews all the time even when I’m not looking to change. At the very least, it’ll help me know what to frameworks and platforms to study for instead of studying broad tech interview concepts.

afraid_of_zombies ,

That’s why I went back to factory/infrastructure. The highs are not high and the lows are not low.

DudemanJenkins ,

1k job applications since June I’m ready for the inevitable end

Zabok ,

700+ applications and multiple recruiting companies later and still only 3 interviews since May. With almost a decade of software development experience. It’s actually a little reassuring that I’m not alone here and it’s not just a problem with me. Best of luck in your search friend!

preludeofme ,

Ok whew I thought I was just doing something wrong. Glad to hear but also not glad to hear figuring what we’re having to go through

randon31415 ,

If people randomly drew your name out of a hat, on average you would have to apply to “the average number of applicants for positions you are applying for” number of jobs to get hired. Keep at it, some jobs see thousands of applicants.

Zabok ,

Just wanted to drop this update in here for anybody going through this now: I finally got a job offer, but it took over 1700 total applications, and 11 months! I hope you have had some luck in finding something since your original comment!

DudemanJenkins ,

All the best to you, my dude.

CosmoNova ,

And seeing what mass copyright infringement corporation OpenAI just dropped we can expect it to be a million more by the end of the year.

nutsack ,

but the Fed is reporting that unemployment is at record lows? I don’t get it

Pohl ,

Unemployment is at record lows. Some sectors are hiring a lot more people than the tech sector is shedding. It’s not really complicated.

Job sectors come and go, grow and shrink. Imagine how silly I would sound if I said: “there is almost no work for horse cart builders but the gov says that unemployment is at record lows, how can this be?”

Kiosade , (edited )

Edit: Gonna try being less upset about some things.

EatATaco ,

You should try not being so angry and offended all the time.

Kiosade ,

Fair. Got any tips?

EatATaco ,

Well, first, I would start with not reading a billboard created by some marketers as some affront to you and the opinion of a group of people who have nothing to do with making the sign.

KyuubiNoKitsune ,

“I want to be able to eat this month, so losing my job would be really bad”

You: Fuck you tech workers! The world doesn’t revolve around you!

EatATaco ,

Because the economy has added more than 300k jobs in 3 single months over the past year. If you go back to the beginning of 22, that number goes up to 9.

While 300k jobs sounds like a big number, represents a small fraction of our economy. It doesn’t even account for 0.2% of total employment. And that’s over a year.

That being said, I’m glad I snagged my job when I did and that I’m being treated like I’m excelling at it.

nutsack ,

I’m unemployed for the first time since I started working at the age of 16 and I’m basically eating shit

EatATaco ,

I’m sorry about your situation, but i absolutely fail to see what this has to do with the point.

fubarx ,

Dotcom bubble. 2008 crash. Covid. Now this.

We’ve all been through these. Buckle down. Ignore the outliers. It’s a chance to rethink and do what matters to you.

Also, ALWAYS have a Plan B, C, and D.

tiredofsametab ,

I left the US for less raw salary but better job security and living somewhere I like more (in most respects; nowhere is perfect). Still make way above average for Japan and have a great standard of living

MajorHavoc ,

Interesting trend in the comments - technology veterans who went through the dotCom crash have quietly moved to union jobs, and aren’t sweating this iteration.

Worth keeping in mind.

Coreidan ,

Unions aren’t exactly a saving grace

Bo7a ,

I would argue they are. My reasoning for this argument would be pointing at the history of the working class.

What is your reasoning for saying they are not?

Snowpix ,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

Corporations wouldn’t fight unions so hard (historically trying to kill their members) if unions weren’t both effective and a threat to their power and wealth. They really, REALLY do not want us to unionize.

olympicyes ,

I read an article this week about how the Kinks were black listed from playing in the US in the mid to late 1960s because they pissed off someone involved with the stage/theater workers union. It was wild to me that a union could hold so much sway over commercial operations in the US.

Coreidan ,

Low pay for one. They start you low even if you have experience. You lose the ability to negotiate your pay or promotions.

Bo7a ,

This kind of bullshit generalization leads me to believe this conversation wouldn’t go very far. I’ll stop here. Cheers.

Coreidan ,

lol. Sounds like a cop out because you have no counter argument. Not a surprise

EatATaco ,

This sounds like more wishful thinking than reality. Like what SWE roles are there that are union? I graduated right after the dotcom burst, with a Computer Engineering degree, I now work as a SWE, and I don’t know a single one of my peers that has entered a union.

MajorHavoc ,

wishful thinking

It’s an observation about what other SWEs are reporting elsewhere in this thread.

EatATaco ,

I’d be extremely careful about believing what you read in the comment sections of lemmy.

rambaroo ,

I’ve never met a dev in a union. What companies have a union?

shasta ,

I think NASA does

dana ,

Google has one, but it’s still very small at the moment.

MajorHavoc ,

Technology unions are common in public sector roles.

Probably because the culture is different in a few key ways:

  1. Government workers rarely even get a cost of living adjustment, without a union, even when they’re critical. Politicians often have the final say, and often don’t care about retaining key staff. (Or actively try to lose key staff…) This leads to a situation where the Union has strong public support, because the Union’s motives are aligned with allowing basic government services to continue during political wind changes.
  2. A government doing Union busting gets immediately called out as Fascism. The government telling you you can’t get together to talk about how the government should change - is not a good look.
avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

Speaking of copycats, I have a feeling this all might have started with Elon showing Twitter “can do the same with less.”

catsarebadpeople ,

You think Twitter is the same as before Elon took over? ಠ_ಠ

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

To an MBA educated exec, it might look the same.

MajorHavoc ,

Even an MBA educated exec can read the stock price trend… But I guess I’m making the “no one is that stupid” argument… And I know in my heart I’m on the wrong side. Somehow, some executives absolutely are that stupid.

avidamoeba ,
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

I mean, the signs were there, Elon wasn’t exactly silent about his plans for Twitter and investors gave him a lot of money to proceed. Clearly there is plenty stupid.

catsarebadpeople ,

To an MBA educated exec, it might look like a roughly $30 billion dollar loss in value. But I can tell you’re not educated because the real issue is advertiser and user numbers dropping at an alarming rate.

avidamoeba , (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

You can tell eh? 😂 Now consider the point of view that you can do the labor trimming without the additional massive mismanagement by Elon. Could that perhaps cause fewer advertisers and users to flee, could perhaps the cost savings vs lost revenue balance positively even if the service quality has decreased by some margin?

catsarebadpeople ,

Yep, I can definitely tell now. What are you even talking about? Could these things perhaps, maybe, possibly balance out? No… Users and advertisers are actively fleeing the platform. The platform that has lost over 70% of its value. Saving on labor, outweighs a 30 billion dollar loss in shareholder value? It’s clear you don’t understand business but surely you can do simple math.

avidamoeba , (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

You’re clearly not understanding what I’m saying and you’re trying to mock. Not great but you do you. ☺️

catsarebadpeople ,

I understand exactly what you’re trying to say. You’re just wrong.

EnderMB ,

From a tech workers perspective, Twitter has long been known for having a resilient infrastructure, so it’s hardly surprising that when Elon (literally) ripped servers out of the wall, some things stayed up.

Sure, they had a lot of issues since Elon took over, but I’d say that many of them are due to the new features that Elon sticky-taped on. Twitter’s solid tech infrastructure was one of the reasons why I always wanted to work there, so I’m doubly-sad to see it go to shit under Musk.

avidamoeba , (edited )
@avidamoeba@lemmy.ca avatar

Agreed and this is the reason I think was possible to hollow it out without it falling apart. Then some other guy with 5 extra brain cells and another robust system under their control is probably like - “I wonder how much labor I can hollow out, till shit starts cracking. So long as I don’t pull any public stunts like Elon and I don’t go beyond the cracks… 🤔💸”

BTW I’ve been at a hollowed out tech company. A very well known name. It’s truly incredible how different things could look from the inside compared to the outside. Massive mountains of tech debt, people doing multi-week on-call shifts to keep shit running, rarely getting a full night’s sleep, trustworthy household nameplate on the outside. The stock was doing okay. Still is actually.

Mac ,

It’s a dark time too be right now.

MeDuViNoX ,
@MeDuViNoX@sh.itjust.works avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    Mac ,

    ?

    Asafum ,

    I think they’re saying this conversation is about tech workers, but your comment included everyone. Obviously everyone matters, but in this moment in time the tech world is on fire.

    Edit: but I do agree with your sentiment. I’ve been desperately wanting to get out of my current situation, but for the last 4 years it’s been “OMG recession is coming recession is coming!” So I can’t leave…

    MeDuViNoX ,
    @MeDuViNoX@sh.itjust.works avatar

    Lmao yeah, pretty much exactly that. I forgot my satire sign.

    Mac ,

    Oh, really? That doesn’t even make sense because “all lives matter” isnt even about all lives mattering…

    Mango ,

    That’s why I’ll never have kids.

    Mac ,

    This is definitely not the main reason I’ll never have kids but it is absolutely on the list. Lmao
    Imagine purposely bringing another being into this shit hole we live in. I could never.

    TakiMinase ,

    Learn plumbing, poo will always flow.

    cyberpunk007 ,

    Sounds like a shitty job.

    …I’ll see myself out.

    pastermil ,

    You sure? We don’t always have to poop in the toilet.

    EatATaco ,

    One thing I’ve learned in my time of DIY is that plumbing could never be a back up plan. Man I hate it and it stinks and cramped. Not easy work.

    KevonLooney ,

    That’s why it pays well. Garbage person jobs pay well too. Few people want to wake up early and smell like garbage all day.

    olympicyes ,

    I know a guy who works at a dump in LA county. He’s retiring with pension in his early 50’s. I’m kind of jealous.

    aesthelete ,

    This sounds intuitive but these “dirty jobs” aren’t nearly as available and profitable as people believe. Relatedly, Mike Rowe is an asshole.

    nintendiator ,

    That’s why it pays well.

    Care to back it up with numbers? Because it’s been like 4.6 Gy since I last saw a garbage disposal person or a plumber driving their SUV out of their 3-floor house.

    olympicyes ,

    Backups are the plan, if you’re a plumber.

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