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Knife vs. Gun Control?

Why are knife control laws so strong in the United States as opposed to gun control?

I was realizing it would be nice to have a knife with auto opening for boxes, etc., basically a switch blade or similar, and I found out that they are super illegal in my state (and/or there are length restrictions, or both sides of the blade can’t be sharp, etc), but I can go into a sporting goods store and buy a pistol and ammo in under 30min.

Shooting open an Amazon box seems inefficient. What is up with restrictive knife-control laws??

Brkdncr ,

Because knife control doesn’t have an entry on the constitution.

ThrowawayPermanente ,

Are knives not arms?

tiefling ,

Butterfly knives only became legal in NY and MA about 4 years ago. There’s virtually zero reason to ban them other than protecting stupid people from accidentally cutting themselves

(I’m one of those stupid people)

WoahWoah OP ,

I got one of those things at a state fair when I was a little kid and set about immediately cutting myself trying to flip it open and look cool. My mom took it from me shortly thereafter. That ended the short saga of WoahWoah and the butterfly knife.

At this point, I can’t think of any reason I would want one. People that can use them well look pretty cool, but as a purposeful knife, they seem pointlessly complicated and prone to user error.

tiefling , (edited )

I use one as my daily! I practice with it a lot and have a trainer to practice. Funny enough, I actually just modeled mine today in a photoshoot (am a circus performer)

As a daily they function as any other knife. If you’re experienced with them, you don’t even think about open or closing. There’s a tiny bit of security in knowing that most people are too afraid to hold one. I do also like that they absolutely can’t close on you while holding it.

I have cut myself though. The worst was when I did a toss that landed tip-down on my palm. But small harm doesn’t bother me.

Professorozone ,

Yeah, but I’d love to have a switch blade. Seems really convenient to me.

lordnikon ,

Same reason they banned pinball in Chicago and NY. To distract the people away from what names politicians money.

tiredofsametab ,

I moved to Japan where knives are also heavily restricted. If you live in Japan, you need a permit to purchase anything with a fixed blade over 15cm and it must be kept in the home. You can't legally carry a pocket knife with a blade longer than 6cm (I think 8cm if it's a folding but not fixed blade) and even then, if stopped, you need to have a specific reason for carrying it around.

It was really weird to me, as someone who carried a pocket knife basically everywhere. I did learn, though, that "in case I need to open boxes" is a case that has come up like twice in 10 years.

As for guns here, handguns are not allowed at all. There are licenses for airguns (pellet guns), rifles, and shotguns. Separately, there are licenses for trapping and hunting that do grant some permissions outside of what I wrote above (hunting/trapping license but no gun license means you're going to be killing your catch with knife, spear, strangulation, drowning, or electrocution).

WoahWoah OP ,

Interesting. I will say, I use my pocket knife usually at least once a day for one thing or another. They’re surprisingly useful for all sorts of tasks.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

If you look at the timing of most the laws against specific types of knives… you’re going to notice a pattern where there was some scare involving some minority or alt group.

Switch blades were outlaws after Hollywood depicted African American villains as gangsters with them.

Same with ballisongs and Asian gangsters/villians.

All of that said, auto-openers have a hair trigger and I would suggest instead getting a good flipper you can easily flick open. Benchmade bugout is my EDC (not for fighting, it’s light and solid.)

masquenox ,

Shooting open an Amazon box seems inefficient.

True, but it’s the American way.

Fubarberry ,
@Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz avatar

There are actually some legal movements to reduce unnecessary knife laws, because a lot of them are based around the idea of 50s punks and don’t make actual logical sense.

But yeah, it depends entirely on the state. The only knife laws in my state is you can’t conceal carry a Bowie knife, but all other knives (OTF, automatics, balisongs, etc) are legal.

cacheson ,

There is a "Knife Rights" organization that works to overturn these laws. From what I hear, they tend to be pretty successful, since there isn't a ton of attention on the issue and there isn't much in the way of entrenched opposition the way there is on the guns issue.

HubertManne ,

we have had a lot of laws against defense to like body armor or nonlethal weapons. its wierd. I remember watching a pbs round table with degerberg on it and he was talking about where are ll the murder corpses with shuriken wounds. H liked arnis because as he says there is no government in the world that can outlaw sticks.

jungle ,

Now in English please.

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

My opinion is that it comes down to people not caring as much.

Yeah, that seems obvious, but bear with me here.

Know what the biggest difference there is between knives and guns? It ain’t how they do the job as weapons, though that is a big one. It’s that guns all work the same, so if you start banning one kind, it ends up applying to far more than anyone that thinks of firearms as an extension of the right to defense, a core human right, is willing to accept.

You ban switchblades, and there’s still fixed blades, slipjoints, lockbacks, etc. Nobody has ever tried to make the kind of laws you see around knives in other countries, but if there was an attempt, I don’t think there would be as much passion against it as there are with guns because there’s just not as much concern about knives as part of the right to defense because guns exist. Range > melee 90% of the time.

Firearms are the gold standard for personal weaponry. So out of the peeps that care about the enumerated right to keep and bear arms simply don’t think about knives as much. Same as they don’t think about bows, or swords or halberds. They don’t care because the fight isn’t as relevant to them.

And, on the other side of things, because guns are the gold standard, you don’t have as many people targeting knives. There’s less to fight against

Now, if guns disappeared, see how quickly crossbows and swords started being the target as people shifted to them instead of guns. That’s where the fight would go to. Ban those, and there’s going to be steps all the way down until the debate is about how big a rock you are allowed to have.

Also, because of that lack of give-a-shit, knife laws aren’t draconian everywhere. There’s some states where you can own and carry any knife you want. Others only ban knives that can shoot across the room, or other specific, niche types

Also, I think you’re underestimating how easy it is to get a pistol. If you go in without the work done ahead of time, you ain’t buying a pistol in half an hour. I don’t think even Texas is that loose. Background checks take at least that long. Maybe I’m behind the times om something, but even “shall issue” permit states, you have to count getting the permit in the time factor, imo.

WoahWoah OP ,

As I understand it, NICS checks take minutes now that everything is done electronically. The more comprehensive so-called “universal background checks” are only required in a minority of states.

30 minutes is probably on the longer end for the whole process. So, you may be behind the times a little bit on this one, but idk for sure, and obviously it varies from state to state.

I know my friend bought a hunting rifle in about 15min last year to go deer hunting for the first time, because I went with him out of morbid curiosity. I think if you’re over 21, a handgun purchase is identical.

The background check was so fast I didn’t even know they did one until I told him I thought they need to do a background check and he told me they did it while they were packaging his gun and ringing it up. I thought it was like in The Simpsons where it’s a few days, where Homer goes “aww, but I’m mad now!!” Lol

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

Well dang! That’s kinda neat that the tech has gotten better.

I’m in a permit state, so I definitely fell behind on that, thanks for the info.

Mnemnosyne ,

Because so-called second amendment advocates are really just gun nuts, and so over the years they have worked hard to maintain the right to keep and bear guns, rather than arms.

Thus knives, swords, halberds, maces, and all other ‘arms’ have had restrictions go unchallenged, or at least, not challenged by an extensive and well funded network of advocacy.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Because knives are the weapon of choice of poor people and abuse victims that are lashing out while guns are favored by the white dudes

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

The weapon of choice of poor people? 12x more violent crime is committed using firearms than knives in the United States. You may be under the impression that all guns are expensive, but that’s not the case.

Also, your post implicitly categorizes people of color as poor, abused, knife-wielding criminals. That seems like a long, convoluted way to be racist, but you do you.

You were trying so hard to make this a race/class issue that you accidentally did a racism. 🤣

Chozo ,

No actually, he's right. Many knife laws were created specifically to target minorities.

For instance, the gravity knife ban that's in place in many states exists because the state of New York realized that poor people who wanted to carry a safe, concealed knife on them were using gravity knives due to their low price making them more accessible than other folding and automatic knives at the time. New York saw a bunch of minorities carrying gravity knives, figured that they must be a "gang weapon" and banned them, and about half the other states followed suit immediately after. Some states have since reversed course on this obviously racist law, but many are still holding out. The ban has nothing to do with the safety of the knife, it's only because lawmakers were afraid of armed minorities.

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

Yes, like gun control laws and the Black Panthers. My point was that guns are the overwhelming choice of violent offenders over and above knives, regardless of race. And it’s a general truism that more violent “street crime” is perpetrated by and against those of lower socioeconomic status in the US.

I use “street crime” here because that’s how it’s labeled in federal statistics AND because if we counted violent crime done through economic imperialism and corporate thuggery, it would dramatically alter that picture.

Nevertheless, saying that poor and abused people use knives and not-poor white men (implicitly, by way of being contra to the former) use guns is a sub-optimal and vaguely racist way to structure that sentiment.

That weapons restrictions are heavily rooted in a history of racism and moral panic in the United States isn’t lost on me. Even more complex when you add in the shifting terrain and definition of “whiteness” during the 20th century, e.g. Irish-, Italian-, Jewish-Americans et al., especially in the context of early and mid-20th century weapon regulations.

Chozo ,

Nevertheless, saying that poor and abused people use knives and not-poor white men (implicitly, by way of being contra to the former) use guns is a sub-optimal and vaguely racist way to structure that sentiment.

I don't disagree, but I think maybe we interpreted his comment differently, as the way I read it was the other person making exactly this point. I took his comment to be explaining from the perspective of one imposing such a law, as opposed to a belief they're presenting as their own.

Even more complex when you add in the shifting terrain and definition of "whiteness" during the 20th century, e.g. Irish-, Italian-, Jewish-Americans et al., especially in the context of early and mid-20th century weapon regulations.

Yup! A couple other examples I can think of are stilettos and switchblades being banned shortly after Italian knife makers picked up on the trend, under the guise of being "mafia" weapons. One excuse they often go for is that the blade can be deployed too quickly, which is BS; you can give a 10-year old kid any old folding knife with thumbstuds, and with 5 minutes of practice they can deploy it just as quickly as any spring-loaded knife.

It's a tale as old as time. Any time the feds see a group of people arming themselves, and they're not white (or not white enough), they'll bend over backwards coming up with any justification to strip them of their defenses.

WoahWoah OP ,

My understanding is that the “mafia” thing is also why short-barreled rifles, silencers, and machine guns are heavily regulated. I’m pretty thankful for the latter, but the first two seem kind of silly to me at this point in time.

And then the poverty issue returns when we consider that the regulations require the purchase of a $200 tax stamp for the above. A chunk of change to be sure, but the price has never changed since its inception of these regulations in 1934.

An adjusted tax stamp for one of those ATF items in today’s dollars would make it about $5,000 for each stamp. You can see how, in 1934, that effectively kept certain types of weapons and accessories out it the hands of the poor.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Pointing out that white men are a privileged class the law and especially law enforcement caters to is not in fact a racism.

WoahWoah OP ,

That’s true. But implying non-white people are poor, abused, and knife-wielding criminals is. You just structured your comment in a clumsy matter, it’s fine. The conversation went somewhere more interesting and involved without you.

ArcaneSlime ,

Well there are such restrictions on guns, try and get a short barrel rifle in under 30 min, the paperwork alone will take that long.

But also yeah those laws suck and shouldn’t exist. Much like the original intent behind CCW permits where the theory was “concealing is for criminals,” those knives were also seen as “for criminals.” It’s just old outdated bullshit that goes largely uncharged but can be used if they want to fuck with you. In some cases “criminals” was also synonymous with black people or even italians depending on the year lol, and were passed for racist reasons.

pushECX ,

I was thinking the same thing. There are definitely restrictions on the size/function of guns, and you have to fill out paperwork, get fingerprinted, etc to get past those restrictions.

To buy any gun at a store, you also have to have a background check, which you generally don’t have to do for knives.

Bgugi ,

amedia.concealedcarry.com/…/atf-braces.jpeg these are just some of the gun laws you can accidentally break… And some of those “legal” options have been flip-flopped in recent years based on meandering policy decisions by the ATF.

It’s very rare that people who wish that “guns were regulated like x” or “can’t believe that guns are less regulated than y” have very little knowledge of what gun laws actually are like at the federal level, much less the archipelago of state laws.

otp ,

Just line up the gun parallel to the tape so that the bullet rips it open

ColeSloth ,

Very old laws on the books that no one has bothered to change in some states. Federally, they aren’t illegal. Federally, knives weren’t protected under the 2nd amendment so states had an easier time putting rules in place against them, and many did. My state just legalized otf and switch blades for everyone a few years ago. Mainly because unassisted knives were able to become just as quick and easy to open, it was a bit silly to leave assisted open knives not legal.

As an added note just for you: cardboard is hell on knife blades and they’ll dull them very quickly. I’d get yourself a box knife and blades f9r it if you open a lot of boxes, unless you want to sharpen a knife like twice a week.

ChadCMulligan ,

The workaround is to buy a small handgun for concealed carry and then attach a small switchblade bayonet.

Your right to open boxes shall not be infringed

WoahWoah OP ,

🤣

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