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Knife vs. Gun Control?

Why are knife control laws so strong in the United States as opposed to gun control?

I was realizing it would be nice to have a knife with auto opening for boxes, etc., basically a switch blade or similar, and I found out that they are super illegal in my state (and/or there are length restrictions, or both sides of the blade can’t be sharp, etc), but I can go into a sporting goods store and buy a pistol and ammo in under 30min.

Shooting open an Amazon box seems inefficient. What is up with restrictive knife-control laws??

wildbus8979 ,

The corrolary is that there’s essentially no knife control in Canada. There’s no length limit or anything. The law just states that you can’t carry a weapon. But if you have a reasonable reason to be carrying a machete (like going bushwacking) you’re good.

JeromeVancouver ,

I think switch blades are illegal in Canada too, but I could be wrong

lord_ryvan ,

I mean, those are reasonably weapons, no?

wildbus8979 ,

Yeah you’re right, that is one limitation. The rational is that it has no purpose other than being a weapon.

WoahWoah OP ,

I think the difference between “assisted open,” which is almost always legal, and “automatic open” (e.g., switch blades") is very minor. They are both just ways of freeing and locking the blade for use. I don’t think either of them implies they will be used as a weapon. I would guess the laws are just stupid and, as another user pointed out, related to a historical “moral panic.”

Damned greasers and their switchblades and leather jackets. When you’re a Jet, you’re a Jet all the way, from your first cigarette to your last dying day!

wildbus8979 ,

Fair

adespoton ,

There are also length laws and switch laws. I know, because I once had a hunting knife that was slightly over the length limit. The RCMP insisted I grind it down and submit it for inspection.

However, such restrictions are use-based; you can have a set of steak knives that are over the limit, because their intended use is obviously not against humans. But if someone pulls a steak knife on someone in public, they’ll run afoul of the knife laws.

I once sat on a jury for an attempted manslaughter knifing that took place in a kitchen with a steak knife, where both participants were drunk at the time; lots of interesting arguments were made by both sides.

wildbus8979 ,

Unless there’s some provincial law, RCMP was fucking with you. There is no length law.

What is the maximum blades size one is allowed to carry in Canada?

There is no specific blade size restriction for carry in Canadian law. However, the larger the size of the blade, the more difficult it would be to identify it as a tool for everyday use. For example; if you are hunting, then a large fixed blade knife on your side is generally acceptable. However, carrying the same large fixed blade knife on your side while walking downtown in a major city would be a different matter. If you have specific questions, please contact your local law enforcement agency

bladescanada.com/FAQ-Frequently-Asked-Questions

The only reference to knives in the criminal code concerns so called automatic knives:

laws.justice.gc.ca/Search/Search.aspx?txtS3archA1…

There is no law banning the carrying in public knives with sheaths, knives that take both hands to open and any knife with a fixed blade and certain non-prohibited folding knives, assuming they are not carried for a purpose dangerous to public peace or for the purpose of committing a criminal offense.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#Canada

What Size Knife Is Legal To Carry In Canada?

In Canada there’s no specified blade length that makes it legal or not. The knife’s legality is determined by the purpose of carrying the knife and its design.

staysafevancouver.com/…/can-i-carry-a-knife-in-ca…

Annoyed_Crabby ,

Because knife doesn’t have NKA to lobby for it.

SomeAmateur ,

I wouldn’t mind if they did honestly

Sequentialsilence ,

The US has strong knife laws? I carry a knife almost everyday and this is the first I’m hearing of this. The only time I can’t take my knife somewhere is if no weapons at all are allowed there, like government buildings.

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

What state do you live in? You might be surprised to find you are technically breaking the law. Or you’re just carrying a simple little folding knife.

Sequentialsilence ,

I went looking at every state I’ve lived in and the one with the most restrictions was Texas, obviously states like New York or California will be more restrictive, but the only real restrictions that I found outside of new england / California, were switchblades or “automatic opening knives”, and carrying in locations like schools and government buildings, which I expected. I used to carry a 8” hunting knife (13” overall) when I did a bunch of outdoor work, now I carry a smaller 3” folding pocketknife (6” overall).

WoahWoah OP ,

Did you look at the length restrictions in Connecticut? 🤣

Death_Equity ,

I’m my state there are restrictions, but they are pretty much accessory charges that you won’t get unless you are a dipshit. You do have to have a firearms permit to carry an automatic knife though, I am not aware of anybody getting charged with that and that alone.

What is funny is you can have a ka-bar on your belt not concealed and be fine, but you aren’t suppose to carry a pocketknife with a blade over 3.5". Also if the fixed blade knife is sharpened on both sides of the blade, that is a no-no, but if it folds it is fine. I think they just removed the ban on butterfly knifes or it has the firearms permit exemption now, but I would have to check to confirm.

As you can imagine, the gun laws make about as much sense and don’t do much to help the problem of violence.

Fubarberry ,
@Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz avatar

It depends on the state, my state has almost no knife laws, but in New York (for example) nearly all folding knives are technically considered illegal gravity knives. Basically if you open a knife 99% of the way, and are able to flick it the remaining 1% open it’s considered an illegal gravity knife.

It’s pretty dumb.

WoahWoah OP ,

Not anymore in NY, but yeah.

Fubarberry ,
@Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz avatar

Oh, good to hear they repealed that law.

Geek_King ,

When a moral panic happens, a lot of things get blown out of proportion. A good example was the panic relating to D&D and satanism. There was a huge panic sometime in the 50s or 60s about the police dealing with young thugs with concealed switch blades, which could be hidden, and then deployed one handed so fast a cop couldn’t draw his weapon fast enough. So this panic got a lot of laws drawn up to ban any switch blade.

Since then, the there are knives that skirt the law by not having a spring which force the blade open, instead a tension bar. There are still types are illegal to carry if a Cop would find out you have it, like “Out the front” switch knives.

The stupid part is, there are plenty of “one hand deployable” knives on the market that are 100% legal. But the laws never get revisited. In my state it’s illegal to have a out the front switch blade, yet a bunch of high end OTF knives are for sale at a sporting store. They just post a sign that says “Know your local laws”, which some how makes it okay to sell.

If anyone has more to add, or corrects, let me know.

WoahWoah OP ,

Seems correct to me. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

SomeAmateur ,

It also goes to show how laws made during the moral panic don’t go away even decades after that panic fades.

This is often in mind when responsible gun owners are critical of more gun laws. The govt won’t go “that was silly of us here’s your bit of freedom back” even if a law objectively had zero positive effect

Kaboom ,

For example, short barrelled rifles are still heavily regulated. Pistols aren’t nearly as regulated.

thurstylark ,

The arbitrarity of some states’ knife laws is also a problem. I don’t remember which state (OK pre ~2015 law updates perhaps?), but I read about one that had few carry restrictions below a certain blade size (somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 inches, IIRC), and if you’re caught carrying one over the limit, you basically have to give a specific purpose for having it. Assuming your case goes to trial, this means it’s more or less up to the judge to determine if your use was valid, which is juuuuuuuussst flexible enough to persecute the “right” people. (assuming I’m remembering correctly that this was in Oklahoma, that would be Native Americans)

Switching gears; Some More News had a pretty comprehensive video about moral panics, which also includes some history on switchblades in particular, for those interested.

WoahWoah OP ,

I think it’s 1.5 inches in Connecticut. Lol

Reverendender ,
@Reverendender@lemmy.world avatar

You definitely need to start shooting open your Amazon boxes

sanguinepar ,
@sanguinepar@lemmy.world avatar

Not when he/she is buying dynamite though.

lord_ryvan ,

Do it. For legal change.

corsicanguppy ,

Heck, do it for science.

FartsWithAnAccent ,
@FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

They aren’t: This is 100% state dependent. Some states have extremely permissive laws allowing you to carry anything from a switchblade to a greatsword if you want.

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

Yes, and gun laws are state dependent as well. I’m not talking about federal law (though technically the Federal Switchblade Act of 1958 is still in force), I’m saying that arguably the majority of states in the United States have more permissive gun laws than knife laws, and it’s absurd.

morphballganon ,

You don’t need a switchblade to open boxes. A box cutter (hence the name) works just fine.

If you think box cutters are too blue-collar, get a multitool with a knife on it (a “pocketknife” with other gizmos).

WoahWoah OP ,

A steak knife works fine too. So would the end of an axe, or the tip of a freshly cut key. That isn’t the point. But surely you know that…?

morphballganon ,

If your goal was to open boxes, then it was the point. If you’re saying my comment was not to the point, then your question about opening boxes was disingenuous. But surely you know that…?

You don’t need a blade specifically designed for stabbing to open boxes.

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

If you’re not being purposefully obtuse, then let me clarify: I said boxes “etc,” but the question is clearly about laws and regulation around knives vs. Guns, as indicated by the title, not about how to open boxes.

The idea that an easy-to-open knife is “specifically designed for stabbing” is idiotic, but I guess that type of ignorant reasoning unintentionally addresses the actual question about why these absurd knife laws exist.

Also, for future reference, you can usually spot the questions by the sentences that are followed by a question mark.

rhythmisaprancer ,
@rhythmisaprancer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

I suspect it is because knives are not included in the second amendment of the constitution. That is a pretty easy argument for people to use against gun regulation (whether or fair or not), but there is no such thing for knives.

WoahWoah OP ,

Knives are included in “arms.” In 2008, the Supreme Court ruled in Heller that the term “arms” has the same meaning as it did in the 18th century and includes anything that can be used for defense, carried for offensive or defensive action, or used to strike another person.

radix ,
@radix@lemmy.world avatar

Laws on the books generally don’t get overturned unless they are specifically mentioned in a court ruling, or there is some action by a legislative body. If you want to be able to buy/sell switchblades, you could challenge the law and see where it goes. But apparently nobody has bothered to take it to court.

rhythmisaprancer ,
@rhythmisaprancer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

Wow, thanks for sharing that! So much for my thought.... It makes yours more poignant though. Perhaps it is just a matter of obsession? Are the folks who obsess over firearms different than the folks who obsess over knives?

WoahWoah OP ,

I would say so, though while looking at reviews for a new pocket knife, I realized there’s a lot of obsessed people who, like gun people, think owning knives is a personality.

SomeAmateur ,

I guess knives aren’t socially seen as defensive arms even if legally they are

clif ,

Depends on the state. Down here there are pretty much zero restrictions except with an asterisk that it’s illegal to harm someone with them… AKA, an extra charge of you’re a dick and stab someone.

I’ve been carrying an “out the front automatic” for the last few years.

WoahWoah OP ,

It’s kinda funny that they’re like knives are cool unless you stab someone with one. If only we had other laws covering the legality of stabbing someone. 😁

ChadCMulligan ,

The workaround is to buy a small handgun for concealed carry and then attach a small switchblade bayonet.

Your right to open boxes shall not be infringed

WoahWoah OP ,

🤣

ColeSloth ,

Very old laws on the books that no one has bothered to change in some states. Federally, they aren’t illegal. Federally, knives weren’t protected under the 2nd amendment so states had an easier time putting rules in place against them, and many did. My state just legalized otf and switch blades for everyone a few years ago. Mainly because unassisted knives were able to become just as quick and easy to open, it was a bit silly to leave assisted open knives not legal.

As an added note just for you: cardboard is hell on knife blades and they’ll dull them very quickly. I’d get yourself a box knife and blades f9r it if you open a lot of boxes, unless you want to sharpen a knife like twice a week.

otp ,

Just line up the gun parallel to the tape so that the bullet rips it open

ArcaneSlime ,

Well there are such restrictions on guns, try and get a short barrel rifle in under 30 min, the paperwork alone will take that long.

But also yeah those laws suck and shouldn’t exist. Much like the original intent behind CCW permits where the theory was “concealing is for criminals,” those knives were also seen as “for criminals.” It’s just old outdated bullshit that goes largely uncharged but can be used if they want to fuck with you. In some cases “criminals” was also synonymous with black people or even italians depending on the year lol, and were passed for racist reasons.

pushECX ,

I was thinking the same thing. There are definitely restrictions on the size/function of guns, and you have to fill out paperwork, get fingerprinted, etc to get past those restrictions.

To buy any gun at a store, you also have to have a background check, which you generally don’t have to do for knives.

Bgugi ,

amedia.concealedcarry.com/…/atf-braces.jpeg these are just some of the gun laws you can accidentally break… And some of those “legal” options have been flip-flopped in recent years based on meandering policy decisions by the ATF.

It’s very rare that people who wish that “guns were regulated like x” or “can’t believe that guns are less regulated than y” have very little knowledge of what gun laws actually are like at the federal level, much less the archipelago of state laws.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Because knives are the weapon of choice of poor people and abuse victims that are lashing out while guns are favored by the white dudes

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

The weapon of choice of poor people? 12x more violent crime is committed using firearms than knives in the United States. You may be under the impression that all guns are expensive, but that’s not the case.

Also, your post implicitly categorizes people of color as poor, abused, knife-wielding criminals. That seems like a long, convoluted way to be racist, but you do you.

You were trying so hard to make this a race/class issue that you accidentally did a racism. 🤣

Chozo ,

No actually, he's right. Many knife laws were created specifically to target minorities.

For instance, the gravity knife ban that's in place in many states exists because the state of New York realized that poor people who wanted to carry a safe, concealed knife on them were using gravity knives due to their low price making them more accessible than other folding and automatic knives at the time. New York saw a bunch of minorities carrying gravity knives, figured that they must be a "gang weapon" and banned them, and about half the other states followed suit immediately after. Some states have since reversed course on this obviously racist law, but many are still holding out. The ban has nothing to do with the safety of the knife, it's only because lawmakers were afraid of armed minorities.

WoahWoah OP , (edited )

Yes, like gun control laws and the Black Panthers. My point was that guns are the overwhelming choice of violent offenders over and above knives, regardless of race. And it’s a general truism that more violent “street crime” is perpetrated by and against those of lower socioeconomic status in the US.

I use “street crime” here because that’s how it’s labeled in federal statistics AND because if we counted violent crime done through economic imperialism and corporate thuggery, it would dramatically alter that picture.

Nevertheless, saying that poor and abused people use knives and not-poor white men (implicitly, by way of being contra to the former) use guns is a sub-optimal and vaguely racist way to structure that sentiment.

That weapons restrictions are heavily rooted in a history of racism and moral panic in the United States isn’t lost on me. Even more complex when you add in the shifting terrain and definition of “whiteness” during the 20th century, e.g. Irish-, Italian-, Jewish-Americans et al., especially in the context of early and mid-20th century weapon regulations.

Chozo ,

Nevertheless, saying that poor and abused people use knives and not-poor white men (implicitly, by way of being contra to the former) use guns is a sub-optimal and vaguely racist way to structure that sentiment.

I don't disagree, but I think maybe we interpreted his comment differently, as the way I read it was the other person making exactly this point. I took his comment to be explaining from the perspective of one imposing such a law, as opposed to a belief they're presenting as their own.

Even more complex when you add in the shifting terrain and definition of "whiteness" during the 20th century, e.g. Irish-, Italian-, Jewish-Americans et al., especially in the context of early and mid-20th century weapon regulations.

Yup! A couple other examples I can think of are stilettos and switchblades being banned shortly after Italian knife makers picked up on the trend, under the guise of being "mafia" weapons. One excuse they often go for is that the blade can be deployed too quickly, which is BS; you can give a 10-year old kid any old folding knife with thumbstuds, and with 5 minutes of practice they can deploy it just as quickly as any spring-loaded knife.

It's a tale as old as time. Any time the feds see a group of people arming themselves, and they're not white (or not white enough), they'll bend over backwards coming up with any justification to strip them of their defenses.

WoahWoah OP ,

My understanding is that the “mafia” thing is also why short-barreled rifles, silencers, and machine guns are heavily regulated. I’m pretty thankful for the latter, but the first two seem kind of silly to me at this point in time.

And then the poverty issue returns when we consider that the regulations require the purchase of a $200 tax stamp for the above. A chunk of change to be sure, but the price has never changed since its inception of these regulations in 1934.

An adjusted tax stamp for one of those ATF items in today’s dollars would make it about $5,000 for each stamp. You can see how, in 1934, that effectively kept certain types of weapons and accessories out it the hands of the poor.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Pointing out that white men are a privileged class the law and especially law enforcement caters to is not in fact a racism.

WoahWoah OP ,

That’s true. But implying non-white people are poor, abused, and knife-wielding criminals is. You just structured your comment in a clumsy matter, it’s fine. The conversation went somewhere more interesting and involved without you.

Mnemnosyne ,

Because so-called second amendment advocates are really just gun nuts, and so over the years they have worked hard to maintain the right to keep and bear guns, rather than arms.

Thus knives, swords, halberds, maces, and all other ‘arms’ have had restrictions go unchallenged, or at least, not challenged by an extensive and well funded network of advocacy.

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