Knife vs. Gun Control?

PhlubbaDubba , 6 hours ago

Because knives are the weapon of choice of poor people and abuse victims that are lashing out while guns are favored by the white dudes

WoahWoah OP , 5 hours ago (edited 5 hours ago)

The weapon of choice of poor people? 12x more violent crime is committed using firearms than knives in the United States. You may be under the impression that all guns are expensive, but that’s not the case.

Also, your post implicitly categorizes people of color as poor, abused, knife-wielding criminals. That seems like a long, convoluted way to be racist, but you do you.

You were trying so hard to make this a race/class issue that you accidentally did a racism. 🤣

Chozo , 4 hours ago

No actually, he's right. Many knife laws were created specifically to target minorities.

For instance, the gravity knife ban that's in place in many states exists because the state of New York realized that poor people who wanted to carry a safe, concealed knife on them were using gravity knives due to their low price making them more accessible than other folding and automatic knives at the time. New York saw a bunch of minorities carrying gravity knives, figured that they must be a "gang weapon" and banned them, and about half the other states followed suit immediately after. Some states have since reversed course on this obviously racist law, but many are still holding out. The ban has nothing to do with the safety of the knife, it's only because lawmakers were afraid of armed minorities.

WoahWoah OP , 4 hours ago (edited 4 hours ago)

Yes, like gun control laws and the Black Panthers. My point was that guns are the overwhelming choice of violent offenders over and above knives, regardless of race. And it’s a general truism that more violent “street crime” is perpetrated by and against those of lower socioeconomic status in the US.

I use “street crime” here because that’s how it’s labeled in federal statistics AND because if we counted violent crime done through economic imperialism and corporate thuggery, it would dramatically alter that picture.

Nevertheless, saying that poor and abused people use knives and not-poor white men (implicitly, by way of being contra to the former) use guns is a sub-optimal and vaguely racist way to structure that sentiment.

That weapons restrictions are heavily rooted in a history of racism and moral panic in the United States isn’t lost on me. Even more complex when you add in the shifting terrain and definition of “whiteness” during the 20th century, e.g. Irish-, Italian-, Jewish-Americans et al., especially in the context of early and mid-20th century weapon regulations.

Chozo , 3 hours ago

Nevertheless, saying that poor and abused people use knives and not-poor white men (implicitly, by way of being contra to the former) use guns is a sub-optimal and vaguely racist way to structure that sentiment.

I don't disagree, but I think maybe we interpreted his comment differently, as the way I read it was the other person making exactly this point. I took his comment to be explaining from the perspective of one imposing such a law, as opposed to a belief they're presenting as their own.

Even more complex when you add in the shifting terrain and definition of "whiteness" during the 20th century, e.g. Irish-, Italian-, Jewish-Americans et al., especially in the context of early and mid-20th century weapon regulations.

Yup! A couple other examples I can think of are stilettos and switchblades being banned shortly after Italian knife makers picked up on the trend, under the guise of being "mafia" weapons. One excuse they often go for is that the blade can be deployed too quickly, which is BS; you can give a 10-year old kid any old folding knife with thumbstuds, and with 5 minutes of practice they can deploy it just as quickly as any spring-loaded knife.

It's a tale as old as time. Any time the feds see a group of people arming themselves, and they're not white (or not white enough), they'll bend over backwards coming up with any justification to strip them of their defenses.

WoahWoah OP , 2 hours ago

My understanding is that the “mafia” thing is also why short-barreled rifles, silencers, and machine guns are heavily regulated. I’m pretty thankful for the latter, but the first two seem kind of silly to me at this point in time.

And then the poverty issue returns when we consider that the regulations require the purchase of a $200 tax stamp for the above. A chunk of change to be sure, but the price has never changed since its inception of these regulations in 1934.

An adjusted tax stamp for one of those ATF items in today’s dollars would make it about $5,000 for each stamp. You can see how, in 1934, that effectively kept certain types of weapons and accessories out it the hands of the poor.

PhlubbaDubba , 1 hour ago

Pointing out that white men are a privileged class the law and especially law enforcement caters to is not in fact a racism.

WoahWoah OP , 32 minutes ago

That’s true. But implying non-white people are poor, abused, and knife-wielding criminals is. You just structured your comment in a clumsy matter, it’s fine. The conversation went somewhere more interesting and involved without you.

tiefling , 1 hour ago

Butterfly knives only became legal in NY and MA about 4 years ago. There’s virtually zero reason to ban them other than protecting stupid people from accidentally cutting themselves

(I’m one of those stupid people)

WoahWoah OP , 34 minutes ago

I got one of those things at a state fair when I was a little kid and set about immediately cutting myself trying to flip it open and look cool. My mom took it from me shortly thereafter. That ended the short saga of WoahWoah and the butterfly knife.

At this point, I can’t think of any reason I would want one. People that can use them well look pretty cool, but as a purposeful knife, they seem pointlessly complicated and prone to user error.

tiredofsametab , 2 hours ago

I moved to Japan where knives are also heavily restricted. If you live in Japan, you need a permit to purchase anything with a fixed blade over 15cm and it must be kept in the home. You can't legally carry a pocket knife with a blade longer than 6cm (I think 8cm if it's a folding but not fixed blade) and even then, if stopped, you need to have a specific reason for carrying it around.

It was really weird to me, as someone who carried a pocket knife basically everywhere. I did learn, though, that "in case I need to open boxes" is a case that has come up like twice in 10 years.

As for guns here, handguns are not allowed at all. There are licenses for airguns (pellet guns), rifles, and shotguns. Separately, there are licenses for trapping and hunting that do grant some permissions outside of what I wrote above (hunting/trapping license but no gun license means you're going to be killing your catch with knife, spear, strangulation, drowning, or electrocution).

WoahWoah OP , 34 minutes ago

Interesting. I will say, I use my pocket knife usually at least once a day for one thing or another. They’re surprisingly useful for all sorts of tasks.

ArcaneSlime , 6 hours ago

Well there are such restrictions on guns, try and get a short barrel rifle in under 30 min, the paperwork alone will take that long.

But also yeah those laws suck and shouldn’t exist. Much like the original intent behind CCW permits where the theory was “concealing is for criminals,” those knives were also seen as “for criminals.” It’s just old outdated bullshit that goes largely uncharged but can be used if they want to fuck with you. In some cases “criminals” was also synonymous with black people or even italians depending on the year lol, and were passed for racist reasons.

pushECX , 1 hour ago

I was thinking the same thing. There are definitely restrictions on the size/function of guns, and you have to fill out paperwork, get fingerprinted, etc to get past those restrictions.

To buy any gun at a store, you also have to have a background check, which you generally don’t have to do for knives.

Sequentialsilence , 8 hours ago

The US has strong knife laws? I carry a knife almost everyday and this is the first I’m hearing of this. The only time I can’t take my knife somewhere is if no weapons at all are allowed there, like government buildings.

WoahWoah OP , 8 hours ago (edited 8 hours ago)

What state do you live in? You might be surprised to find you are technically breaking the law. Or you’re just carrying a simple little folding knife.

Sequentialsilence , 6 hours ago

I went looking at every state I’ve lived in and the one with the most restrictions was Texas, obviously states like New York or California will be more restrictive, but the only real restrictions that I found outside of new england / California, were switchblades or “automatic opening knives”, and carrying in locations like schools and government buildings, which I expected. I used to carry a 8” hunting knife (13” overall) when I did a bunch of outdoor work, now I carry a smaller 3” folding pocketknife (6” overall).

WoahWoah OP , 5 hours ago

Did you look at the length restrictions in Connecticut? 🤣

Death_Equity , 8 hours ago

I’m my state there are restrictions, but they are pretty much accessory charges that you won’t get unless you are a dipshit. You do have to have a firearms permit to carry an automatic knife though, I am not aware of anybody getting charged with that and that alone.

What is funny is you can have a ka-bar on your belt not concealed and be fine, but you aren’t suppose to carry a pocketknife with a blade over 3.5". Also if the fixed blade knife is sharpened on both sides of the blade, that is a no-no, but if it folds it is fine. I think they just removed the ban on butterfly knifes or it has the firearms permit exemption now, but I would have to check to confirm.

As you can imagine, the gun laws make about as much sense and don’t do much to help the problem of violence.

Fubarberry , 4 hours ago

It depends on the state, my state has almost no knife laws, but in New York (for example) nearly all folding knives are technically considered illegal gravity knives. Basically if you open a knife 99% of the way, and are able to flick it the remaining 1% open it’s considered an illegal gravity knife.

It’s pretty dumb.

WoahWoah OP , 2 hours ago

Not anymore in NY, but yeah.

Fubarberry , 2 hours ago

Oh, good to hear they repealed that law.

clif , 7 hours ago

Depends on the state. Down here there are pretty much zero restrictions except with an asterisk that it’s illegal to harm someone with them… AKA, an extra charge of you’re a dick and stab someone.

I’ve been carrying an “out the front automatic” for the last few years.

WoahWoah OP , 2 hours ago

It’s kinda funny that they’re like knives are cool unless you stab someone with one. If only we had other laws covering the legality of stabbing someone. 😁

Geek_King , 8 hours ago

When a moral panic happens, a lot of things get blown out of proportion. A good example was the panic relating to D&D and satanism. There was a huge panic sometime in the 50s or 60s about the police dealing with young thugs with concealed switch blades, which could be hidden, and then deployed one handed so fast a cop couldn’t draw his weapon fast enough. So this panic got a lot of laws drawn up to ban any switch blade.

Since then, the there are knives that skirt the law by not having a spring which force the blade open, instead a tension bar. There are still types are illegal to carry if a Cop would find out you have it, like “Out the front” switch knives.

The stupid part is, there are plenty of “one hand deployable” knives on the market that are 100% legal. But the laws never get revisited. In my state it’s illegal to have a out the front switch blade, yet a bunch of high end OTF knives are for sale at a sporting store. They just post a sign that says “Know your local laws”, which some how makes it okay to sell.

If anyone has more to add, or corrects, let me know.

WoahWoah OP , 7 hours ago

Seems correct to me. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

SomeAmateur , 4 hours ago

It also goes to show how laws made during the moral panic don’t go away even decades after that panic fades.

This is often in mind when responsible gun owners are critical of more gun laws. The govt won’t go “that was silly of us here’s your bit of freedom back” even if a law objectively had zero positive effect

thurstylark , 3 hours ago

The arbitrarity of some states’ knife laws is also a problem. I don’t remember which state (OK pre ~2015 law updates perhaps?), but I read about one that had few carry restrictions below a certain blade size (somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 inches, IIRC), and if you’re caught carrying one over the limit, you basically have to give a specific purpose for having it. Assuming your case goes to trial, this means it’s more or less up to the judge to determine if your use was valid, which is juuuuuuuussst flexible enough to persecute the “right” people. (assuming I’m remembering correctly that this was in Oklahoma, that would be Native Americans)

Switching gears; Some More News had a pretty comprehensive video about moral panics, which also includes some history on switchblades in particular, for those interested.

WoahWoah OP , 2 hours ago

I think it’s 1.5 inches in Connecticut. Lol

FuglyDuck , 2 hours ago

If you look at the timing of most the laws against specific types of knives… you’re going to notice a pattern where there was some scare involving some minority or alt group.

Switch blades were outlaws after Hollywood depicted African American villains as gangsters with them.

Same with ballisongs and Asian gangsters/villians.

All of that said, auto-openers have a hair trigger and I would suggest instead getting a good flipper you can easily flick open. Benchmade bugout is my EDC (not for fighting, it’s light and solid.)

masquenox , 3 hours ago

Shooting open an Amazon box seems inefficient.

True, but it’s the American way.

wildbus8979 , 9 hours ago

The corrolary is that there’s essentially no knife control in Canada. There’s no length limit or anything. The law just states that you can’t carry a weapon. But if you have a reasonable reason to be carrying a machete (like going bushwacking) you’re good.

JeromeVancouver , 8 hours ago

I think switch blades are illegal in Canada too, but I could be wrong

lord_ryvan , 8 hours ago

I mean, those are reasonably weapons, no?

wildbus8979 , 7 hours ago

Yeah you’re right, that is one limitation. The rational is that it has no purpose other than being a weapon.

WoahWoah OP , 7 hours ago

I think the difference between “assisted open,” which is almost always legal, and “automatic open” (e.g., switch blades") is very minor. They are both just ways of freeing and locking the blade for use. I don’t think either of them implies they will be used as a weapon. I would guess the laws are just stupid and, as another user pointed out, related to a historical “moral panic.”

Damned greasers and their switchblades and leather jackets. When you’re a Jet, you’re a Jet all the way, from your first cigarette to your last dying day!

wildbus8979 , 7 hours ago

Fair

adespoton , 4 hours ago

There are also length laws and switch laws. I know, because I once had a hunting knife that was slightly over the length limit. The RCMP insisted I grind it down and submit it for inspection.

However, such restrictions are use-based; you can have a set of steak knives that are over the limit, because their intended use is obviously not against humans. But if someone pulls a steak knife on someone in public, they’ll run afoul of the knife laws.

I once sat on a jury for an attempted manslaughter knifing that took place in a kitchen with a steak knife, where both participants were drunk at the time; lots of interesting arguments were made by both sides.

wildbus8979 , 3 hours ago

Unless there’s some provincial law, RCMP was fucking with you. There is no length law.

What is the maximum blades size one is allowed to carry in Canada?

There is no specific blade size restriction for carry in Canadian law. However, the larger the size of the blade, the more difficult it would be to identify it as a tool for everyday use. For example; if you are hunting, then a large fixed blade knife on your side is generally acceptable. However, carrying the same large fixed blade knife on your side while walking downtown in a major city would be a different matter. If you have specific questions, please contact your local law enforcement agency

bladescanada.com/FAQ-Frequently-Asked-Questions

The only reference to knives in the criminal code concerns so called automatic knives:

laws.justice.gc.ca/Search/Search.aspx?txtS3archA1…

There is no law banning the carrying in public knives with sheaths, knives that take both hands to open and any knife with a fixed blade and certain non-prohibited folding knives, assuming they are not carried for a purpose dangerous to public peace or for the purpose of committing a criminal offense.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_legislation#Canada

What Size Knife Is Legal To Carry In Canada?

In Canada there’s no specified blade length that makes it legal or not. The knife’s legality is determined by the purpose of carrying the knife and its design.

staysafevancouver.com/…/can-i-carry-a-knife-in-ca…

southsamurai , 4 hours ago

My opinion is that it comes down to people not caring as much.

Yeah, that seems obvious, but bear with me here.

Know what the biggest difference there is between knives and guns? It ain’t how they do the job as weapons, though that is a big one. It’s that guns all work the same, so if you start banning one kind, it ends up applying to far more than anyone that thinks of firearms as an extension of the right to defense, a core human right, is willing to accept.

You ban switchblades, and there’s still fixed blades, slipjoints, lockbacks, etc. Nobody has ever tried to make the kind of laws you see around knives in other countries, but if there was an attempt, I don’t think there would be as much passion against it as there are with guns because there’s just not as much concern about knives as part of the right to defense because guns exist. Range > melee 90% of the time.

Firearms are the gold standard for personal weaponry. So out of the peeps that care about the enumerated right to keep and bear arms simply don’t think about knives as much. Same as they don’t think about bows, or swords or halberds. They don’t care because the fight isn’t as relevant to them.

And, on the other side of things, because guns are the gold standard, you don’t have as many people targeting knives. There’s less to fight against

Now, if guns disappeared, see how quickly crossbows and swords started being the target as people shifted to them instead of guns. That’s where the fight would go to. Ban those, and there’s going to be steps all the way down until the debate is about how big a rock you are allowed to have.

Also, because of that lack of give-a-shit, knife laws aren’t draconian everywhere. There’s some states where you can own and carry any knife you want. Others only ban knives that can shoot across the room, or other specific, niche types

Also, I think you’re underestimating how easy it is to get a pistol. If you go in without the work done ahead of time, you ain’t buying a pistol in half an hour. I don’t think even Texas is that loose. Background checks take at least that long. Maybe I’m behind the times om something, but even “shall issue” permit states, you have to count getting the permit in the time factor, imo.

WoahWoah OP , 3 hours ago

As I understand it, NICS checks take minutes now that everything is done electronically. The more comprehensive so-called “universal background checks” are only required in a minority of states.

30 minutes is probably on the longer end for the whole process. So, you may be behind the times a little bit on this one, but idk for sure, and obviously it varies from state to state.

I know my friend bought a hunting rifle in about 15min last year to go deer hunting for the first time, because I went with him out of morbid curiosity. I think if you’re over 21, a handgun purchase is identical.

The background check was so fast I didn’t even know they did one until I told him I thought they need to do a background check and he told me they did it while they were packaging his gun and ringing it up. I thought it was like in The Simpsons where it’s a few days, where Homer goes “aww, but I’m mad now!!” Lol

southsamurai , 3 hours ago

Well dang! That’s kinda neat that the tech has gotten better.

I’m in a permit state, so I definitely fell behind on that, thanks for the info.

Reverendender , 8 hours ago

You definitely need to start shooting open your Amazon boxes

sanguinepar , 8 hours ago

Not when he/she is buying dynamite though.

lord_ryvan , 8 hours ago

Do it. For legal change.

corsicanguppy , 4 hours ago

Heck, do it for science.

Fubarberry , 4 hours ago

There are actually some legal movements to reduce unnecessary knife laws, because a lot of them are based around the idea of 50s punks and don’t make actual logical sense.

But yeah, it depends entirely on the state. The only knife laws in my state is you can’t conceal carry a Bowie knife, but all other knives (OTF, automatics, balisongs, etc) are legal.

cacheson , 4 hours ago

There is a "Knife Rights" organization that works to overturn these laws. From what I hear, they tend to be pretty successful, since there isn't a ton of attention on the issue and there isn't much in the way of entrenched opposition the way there is on the guns issue.

rhythmisaprancer , 8 hours ago

I suspect it is because knives are not included in the second amendment of the constitution. That is a pretty easy argument for people to use against gun regulation (whether or fair or not), but there is no such thing for knives.

WoahWoah OP , 7 hours ago

Knives are included in “arms.” In 2008, the Supreme Court ruled in Heller that the term “arms” has the same meaning as it did in the 18th century and includes anything that can be used for defense, carried for offensive or defensive action, or used to strike another person.

radix , 7 hours ago

Laws on the books generally don’t get overturned unless they are specifically mentioned in a court ruling, or there is some action by a legislative body. If you want to be able to buy/sell switchblades, you could challenge the law and see where it goes. But apparently nobody has bothered to take it to court.

rhythmisaprancer , 6 hours ago

Wow, thanks for sharing that! So much for my thought.... It makes yours more poignant though. Perhaps it is just a matter of obsession? Are the folks who obsess over firearms different than the folks who obsess over knives?

WoahWoah OP , 5 hours ago

I would say so, though while looking at reviews for a new pocket knife, I realized there’s a lot of obsessed people who, like gun people, think owning knives is a personality.

SomeAmateur , 4 hours ago

I guess knives aren’t socially seen as defensive arms even if legally they are