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TheBlue22 ,

Many have pointed this out, but I’ll say it again: this only affects innocent people.

Hamas has long stockpiled food, water, fuel, guns, and ammunition. They will be the last to run out.

This does nothing but radicalize the rest of the population, something I would assume the zionist government wants.

Agent641 ,

Waco of the middle east, times a thousand

HootinNHollerin ,
@HootinNHollerin@sh.itjust.works avatar

Religion is the drug of hate. People need to start openly blaming religion for this shit

vacuumflower ,

It’s not really about religion. It’s about tribalism and sabre rattling.

One side is barbaric, another side cowardly, so their sabre rattling doesn’t look very impressive, rather disgusting in both cases.

EternalNicodemus ,
@EternalNicodemus@lemmy.world avatar

Religion is like guns, you can use it either for good or evil :)

h3mlocke ,

We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly

So business as usual, eh?

thechadwick ,

It’s just crazy to me that Israel went from forced migration, following ghetto concentration, to concentrating others with the same dehumanizing rhetoric in the space if a generation.

Not to excuse Hamas’ actions in the slightest, the rocket attack is unjustifiable no matter anyone’s political beliefs. But it boggles my mind that a national identity can flip so drastically that Palestine can be put into de facto concentration camps by people who remember being in camps (albeit in tiny surviving numbers nowadays).

Propaganda works folks. Don’t be a sucker.

Meowoem ,

It’s more understandable when you listen to the Jewish arguments about needing to protect themselves against people who want to kill them, they see themselves as being inside the walls and defending themselves so they see their actions as justifiable because the alternative is another genocide.

It’s hard because neither side is entirely right or wrong, Hamas is a terrorist organisation that gets help from other terrorist organisations - the thousands of missiles they fired over the last few days didn’t come from nowhere, we can’t deny that Iran is a repressive and brutal regime that would love to see all Jewish people dead for religious reasons, just like they hate gay people, women, and so many other groups.

That of course isn’t to say there aren’t awfull racist Jewish people who hate Muslims, but Israel as a nation is starting to work well with many Arab nations such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The country has a lot of problems but is doing a lot of good things in the region also, and it’s doing them working with many Arabs and Arab nations. They see themselves as trying to be good people and they know if they tore down their walls then they’d be massacred, it is understandable how they justify looking the other way when the IDF are brutal or their government makes questionable choices.

dangblingus ,

Cool so they’re announcing they’re doing war crimes?

ryathal ,

Taking and killing hostages are both war crimes.

nicoweio ,

And war crimes justify war crimes?

Llewellyn ,

In the real world - sadly, yes.

DragonTypeWyvern ,

It’s legally how the Geneva Conventions work. You are only bound to them if the other side agrees to it as well.

However, Hamas is not the Gaza Strip, it is not Palestine, and Israel claims the Strip as its territory anyways so to claim the civilian population doesn’t accept the Convention so they aren’t bound by it is ludicrous.

Pasta4u ,

Murder is against the law in western countries but of someone tries to kill you, you can kill them in self defense.

So yea of someone is committing war crimes against you, you can fo ahead and fight back to get them to stop

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

War crimes are war crimes, doesn’t matter if the other side started them first. Israel is stooping just as low as Hamas is with these tactics, you can and should fight in self defense without targeting Civilians

SCB ,

They don’t target civilians. Hamas does.

When you build your headquarters inside a civilian hospital, and that hospital gets bombed, you are to blame for the war crime of positioning your HQ in a civilian hospital, not the person who bombs you.

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

If you build an HQ in a hospital that’s (likely? I’d assume so) a war crime. If your opponent then bombs that hospital to bomb you they are also committing a war crime. Some of you are insane, would you agree with the police shooting hostages because “well they took the hostages first, it’s their fault we shot them”. Fuck no, you’d cry for whoever did that to go to prison. Just because Hamas is stooping so low does not suddenly make it OK for Israel to stoop just about as low.

SCB ,

I only know the war crimes I was taught about that can plausibly be laid on Jews

Yeah I’m aware. Show me on the doll where ((George Soros)) and the ((globalists)) hurt you.

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

be laid on Jews

fancy how it always ends up being this according to people defending Israel as rightful. I don’t give a shit about Israel being mostly jewish. Should I give them a free war crime pass because they suffered from genocide in the past? That how you think this should work?

SCB ,

I don’t care about your beliefs, because you are largely ignorant of the actual situation. I’m calling out the fact that your information sources are blatantly anti-Semitic.

You’re just their rube.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Yes but this particular news story is about Israel publicly announcing a war crime.

QHC ,

Oh, so war crimes are justified as long as the other side does it first?

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Potentially, sure. Things like carpet bombing civilian areas, certain uses of minefields, certain munitions, etc are banned by convention but the thing about the Geneva Conventions are that they are a mutual treaty. Your nation agrees not to do it to other signatories or nations or forces that have otherwise agreed to the limitations as well.

In this case? No. Not at all justified. Hamas might not agree to the Conventions, and thus don’t benefit from the protections, but the moment they suspended elections they lost the right to claim they represent the Gaza Strip, even if Israel didn’t claim it as territory regardless.

Israel is a signatory of the Conventions, and the Gaza Strip is their claimed land, this is a war crime against people they claim as their own, the actions of what amounts to a domestic terrorist network is irrelevant to whether they can starve people into submission.

A standard genocidal tactic of imperialists everywhere, mind you, from the Irish famine, to the Holodomor, to the Bengal Famines.

Iceblade02 ,

Israel doesn’t claim Gaza though

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Fair enough, it’s just the rest of the world that says they act like they do whatever they officially claim, while they refuse to recognize everything necessary for Palestine to exist as a functional state.

Iceblade02 ,

Oh most certainly. Palestine as a whole isn’t a functional state, just the Gaza Strip (albeit under varying degrees of blockade since Hamas was elected and won the civil war). I’d consider the W.B to be occupied/undergoing a slow process of annexation. I think the most realistic solution for the citizens of the W.B is that they at some point in the future get the option to become Israeli citizens with all the rights (and responsibilities) that entails.

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

How do you explain the illegal Israeli settlements there then?

Iceblade02 ,

There aren’t any.

en.wikipedia.org/…/Population_statistics_for_Isra…

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

well, I stand corrected.

Tvkan ,

You’re thinking of the West Bank.

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

yeah probably

Sivalente ,

Israel unilaterally removed itself from the gaza strip all most 20 years ago. They only sell infrastructure to the gazan government.

Wakmrow ,

One of these is a state. A state with US military support.

Cethin ,

They never weren’t, but they at least had the decency to pretend like they weren’t before.

Modern_medicine_isnt ,

so wait. Siege is a war crime? Not taking a side, I’m just a technicalities kind of guy. Its not like locking people in a house. And don’t hostage negotiators do just that in the US? (Could be just on tv). But it’s a big place. Fuel and electricity are nice to haves. They should have some amount of food and water stored up. And the southern border is with egypt, so I assume they can’t actually do anything about that. Doesn’t seem like a straight up war crime. But I have never read yhe definitions they have at the UN.

chiliedogg ,

Using hunger as a weapons against a populace is 100% a war crime, yes.

wwaxen ,

I just took a gander at the list as a refresher, and it is not 100% a war crime. You can argue this is an unjustified or excessive attack on civilians, but a judge may rule that is is required to defend against the enemy (Hamas).

chiliedogg ,

Item 2.b.25 from the list seems to match up:

"Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions; "

Iceblade02 ,

Is the intent to starve civilians or to deprive hamas combatants of any and all supplies?

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

If you are blocking an entire region from getting food and water then yes, the intent is to starve the civilian population.

Iceblade02 ,

Regardless of what we feel is intended or not, that is what war is - hell for everybody involved. Let’s just hope that this doesn’t get drawn out.

SCB ,

That’s not what “intent to starve a civilian population” means. This is not a program of starvation. It’s cutting off resources before an invasion

This isn’t your homebrew DnD game where you can make rules mean whatever you want.

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

This is not a program of starvation

It is though. A program of cutting off resources would be blocking fuel and other goods, not fucking food and water. Ukraine was rightfully put in the corner for cutting off water to Crimea after 2014. There is no excuse to starving people, it’s a horrendous crime which should land the people involved in prison. Besides what do you think will happen now? Who will the Palestinians in Gaza trust more, the murder hobos who got them into this mess or the Israelis who decided collective punishment is an appropriate response? War crimes are called war crimes for a reason, just because one side commits them doesn’'t suddenly make it ok to commit them back.

SCB ,

It isn’t, and whoever told you it is such is just lying to you.

Idk where you people get your “news” but whatever podcasters you listen to are fucking braindead.

You’re exactly equivalent to the dumbest of the MAGA by believing that tripe.

neshura ,
@neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

aljazeera.com/…/israel-announces-total-blockade-o…

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67051292

Gaza is completely blockaded, by Israels own admission. If you don’t want to call it an attack on the entire population there, please go ahead and stay delusional. This is not OK, no matter who does it. It was not OK when Ukraine did it to Crimea, it’s not OK now. It’s heinous and despicable.

SCB ,

It was not OK when Ukraine did it to Crimea

Lmao of course the propaganda you fall for is pro-russian too.

chiliedogg ,

Well the EU just called it a war crime. So between the text of the rule, the spirit of the rule, and the fucking international body of governments’ interpretation of the rule, I think I’m gonna stick with interpretation that intentionally cutting off food, water, and power to the entire region constitutes intentionally cutting off food and water to civilians.

SCB ,

I guarantee you there is 0 fallout in the real world.

Nioxic ,

Thats a bit too much… food and water at minimum

Tilted ,

Maybe don’t bite the hand that feeds you. It is and it continues to be a complete disaster.

dangblingus ,

Maybe don’t be a hand that feeds. Palestinians didn’t choose to live in the Gaza Strip. They were relegated to the Gaza Strip.

Tilted ,

Sure, if you say so. Reality remains the same. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

No, just accept surrender and be dehumanized.

Tilted ,

Or accept one of the countless proposals for peace.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Like which one? Give me one that you think sounded reasonable that the Palestinians did not accept.

Tilted ,

Any of them. Pick one you don’t like and I’ll say that one.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I asked first

Tilted ,

I answered too. Any one of them.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think any of them are reasonable. Please show one where Israel was “moderate”. You made the claim so please provide an example since it’s not uncommon to hear that Israel’s peace negotiations were shit and unfair. So please list a few that you think were reasonable anf the Palestinians missed out.

Tilted ,

I don’t think I made any claim like that. I’m saying the Palestinian side has rejected all proposals - rightly or otherwise. Multiple wars have been lost, and they have no leverage other than terror. If they want peace, they have to choose it.

Honestly, I think the situation is so beyond toxic and arguing right or wrong is pointless. If the Palestinians had the power to enforce their will, they would. I don’t expect anything else from Israel.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Right, thanks, but I think most if not all peace negotiations were giving Palestinians impossible demands with Israel being the biggest winner. If it’s anyone sabotaging the peace negotiations, it has always been Israel acting like an internet troll.

So yes, if Israel were to negotiate like a troll again, it won’t work. So instead of shifting the focus on the Palestinians, it’s Israel that needs a peace agreement that is reasonable and where they make concessions.

Aria ,

Palestinians overwhelmingly would accept a proposal where the Israelis go home in exchange for promising to not enact revenge. It’s the Israelis who refuse.

ChaoticEntropy ,
@ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

What about the hand that is wrapped around your throat…?

Krauerking ,

“Man those slaves don’t understand how nice they have it. We provide them a hole to sleep in and food and water whenever we have some to spare or remember to give it to them…
God why can’t they just be good and respect how much worse we could treat them?! Ugh they act like they are humans when you can see how feral they truly are, watch I’ll beat this one and it doesn’t even learn it’s lesson, just gets angrier and more deranged.
Well guess we just have to show the wild animals that they aren’t people and if they continue to bite the hand that feeds them we take away their kids to punish them for thinking they have any control.
Stay subservient cause I’m better and more human than you.”

Hey. Go fuck yourself.

Tilted ,

Do you need help building a bigger straw man?

Krauerking ,

Blaming the oppressed for being upset about being oppressed and downtrodden is a dick move. I figured maybe hyperbold would make you see that you are a jackass but nah you’d happily be holding the whip it seems.

xc2215x ,

Many Palestinians will end up dying from this. Hamas destroyed any chance there was of peace happening.

branchial ,

Peace was literally never an option Israel offered.

DrM ,

That’s untrue, Israel offered peace a lot of times to Palestine before the Hamas took control in 2007. After Hamas it of course was never an option, the main purpose Hamas sees in itself is the complete destruction of Israel

Asymptote ,

Israeli politicians bicker and argue over who can find a final solution to the Palestinian problem fastest.

triclops6 ,

People here are not fans of the facts you are inconveniencing then with

sirboozebum ,

I agree.

If only the Ukrainians did the same and offered the “peace” that Russia offers them.

Just compromise and give up your ancestral lands.

keropoktasen ,

“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

This. Hamas leaders either have so very low IQ to not be able predict how israel would retaliate, or they just don’t care about their own people’s lives. Hamas and their terrorist goons do not deserved to be called a human.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Unfortunately they are just as human as anyone. This is the point, humans do this.

dingleberry ,

You did it Hamas! https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/480ae4c1-1ba3-4163-80fa-09793acac2cb.webm

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Did what? Cut water and electricity off 2 million Gazan civilians?

dumdum666 , (edited )

Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.

Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian

Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.

Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

They should take down the walls, negotiate with Hamas, return lands to Gaza, end the blockade and start a very long fucking peace process.

Frigorific ,

Isreal now sees Hamas as an existential threat. The only way to end the bloodshed would be Hamas offering an unconditional surrender.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

The only way to end the bloodshed would be Hamas offering an unconditional surrender.

And then what happens? Will Palestinians be guaranteed their basic rights? If Palestinians are not given the chance to be full citizens and have self-determination, this will only repeat in another 2-3 years.

Frigorific ,

I do not think you understand how bad this is going to get for Palestinians in Gaza. Hamas has just perpetrated the worst terrorist attack in Isreals history.

From everything I am reading these are not just retaliatory strikes. Isreal is preparing for a full offensive on Gaza involving tanks, artillery and infantry. This could very well end with Gaza looking like Grozny, Mariupol, or Bakhmut.

I hope that doesn't happen, but if Hamas cared at all about the Palestinian people they would do everything in their power to avoid that. Unfortunately they only care about power and I think this is going to get very ugly in the next phase of the war.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

but if Hamas cared at all about the Palestinian people they would do everything in their power to avoid that.

but if Israel cared at all about the Palestinian people they would do everything in their power to avoid that.

Everything goes both ways exactly the same.

dumdum666 ,

Israel is out for revenge and as I have written elsewhere: When they enter Gaza, they want to get attacked. Because after an attack they will retaliate and every dead civilian, while retaliating against Hamas, will be considered collateral damage.

Hamas made the whole Gaza Invasion an easy sell for a lot of people. And no, I don’t think that it is ok to kill civilians.

My illusory wish for the Middle East would be something like a joint state of Palestinians AND Israelis - so that they can all access their holy sites. Forcing both sides to work together.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Hmmm, so if you were Hamas, for example, and you decide to deescalate in hopes of eventually reaching an agreement over a joint state, what would you do?

Also the same question but if you were Israel, what would you do (let’s say today) to deescalate and seek a joint state solution?

BaroqueInMind ,
@BaroqueInMind@kbin.social avatar

If you are Hamas you cannot do anything now, they are bloodlusted and will not stop until you are dead and your culture is wiped off the earth.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, but for the sake of this example, imagine you are Hamas and have changed your mind, what would be step 1?

BaroqueInMind , (edited )
@BaroqueInMind@kbin.social avatar

Step 1 is to accept your demise. The West will no longer tolerate your version of your beliefs because they are incompatible with the rest of the world's status quo; a certain version of Islam that hypocritically hates the West but enjoys all the products they produce (including cultural like Hollywood action films), but also wants to destroy it and have something akin to what the Taliban have.

Women deserve bodily autonomy and the right to exist as a man or love another woman. Hamas version of Islam hates that way more than regular Islam or even the Catholics and Jews do.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, but let’s say your step 1 is what you would do if you didn’t want to accept your demise (because I don’t think this choice is one that anyone would really take).

BaroqueInMind ,
@BaroqueInMind@kbin.social avatar

If I were Hamas, my existence is at stake. So I would be brutally fighting for my life in the most savage way possible, taking hostages, fighting dirty, and killing indiscriminately so as to demoralize them and destroy them as much as possible.

Frigorific ,
  1. Contact Isreal and negotiate a surrender that would involve at minimum releasing all hostages and turning over any and all war criminals involved in the planning and execution of the massacres.

That is not something Hamas would ever consider though so we are just in the realms of fantasy at this point.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

So if Hamas “surrenders” to Israel, how is this going to stop Israel’s daily oppression of Palestinians? What would Israel have to give back to Hamas?

Frigorific ,

It would stop the ground invasion that is about to happen.

Isreal is not going to give anything to Hamas after the massacres this week. That is no longer an option.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Israel has had options for so long and have waited for this moment to say they are out of options so they had to cut water off 2 million people of which one quarter of a million are now homeless and displaced.

dumdum666 , (edited )

At the moment there probably isn’t any will on either side to cooperate. Reasonable people with a will to compromise have to get involved…

Hamas publicly admitting that they fucked up by killing the civilians, releasing the hostages and calling for negotiations would be a first step in my opinion. Netanyahu would probably not know what to do in that situation.

If Israel were to make a first step: Netanyahu would only have to say that it cannot continue like this.

I mean look at France and Germany for example. Being archenemies for centuries caused immeasurable death and destruction in Europe and the whole world. Only after the Second World War those people realized that it cannot continue like this… and both countries murdered the shit out of each other before becoming something like friends.

Only if both parties are willing to break the cycle of violence, this will end.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds pretty balanced. I agree that Netanyahu would probably not know what to do readily since it would be very unexpected.

I’m was also watching the latest TL;DR video on YouTube about this and it seems that the reports say civilians are the ones who carried out the kidnapping of lots of civilian hostages while Hamas focused on military targets. I don’t know to what extent this is confirmable (since the source is Hamas itself).

tallwookie ,

yep. palestine needs to denounce hamas, round up every single one of them and hand them over to Israel for justice. anything less is an immediate invasion, 100% destruction of palestine.

it wont happen, so I’ll be surprised if palestine/gaza still exists on the map in the next 12 months.

WidowsFavoriteSon ,

How the fuck do you negotiate with a state that does not beleive Israel should exist?

The Palestinians brought this on themselves.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

The Palestinians brought this on themselves.

How?

WidowsFavoriteSon ,

They support a government that refuses to talk peace. The position of Hamas, in its founding documents, is that the state of Israel should be exterminated. You reap what you sow.

snek OP ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

But the state of Israel is also trying to “exterminate” Palestinians. Everything from their far right gov’t to people chanting “Death to Arabs” on the street.

It takes two to tango. If Hamas should step down, then Israel should step down at exactly the same moment.

Toby_2222 ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    WidowsFavoriteSon ,

    How do you say I’m antisemtic without saying I’m antisemitic.

    mrsgreenpotato ,

    He didn’t say a word about Jews, how’s that antisemitic? Israel country does not equal Jewish people.

    BraveSirZaphod , (edited )
    @BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

    For better or worse (and frankly, I take quite a lot of issue with how Israel was founded, looking at you Misters Sykes and Picot), Israel exists now. Most of its population was born there and knows no other home. To suggest that Israel should no longer exist is to endorse the violent elimination of millions of people from their homes, and we've literally just seen what Hamas' method of doing so would look like. Even setting aside ethics, the fact of the matter is that Israel will not let that happen and will do everything in its power to ensure it.

    That said, what absolutely should not continue is any further expansion of Israel into Palestinian lands. West Bank settlements are considered illegal by literally every country in the world and are a deliberate method of ensuring that a Palestinian state is never viable. There is a, now almost entirely implausible, viable solution where Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, swaps some land in the West Bank to account for East Jerusalem, stops the blockade of Gaza, and allows the creation of a Palestinian state that operates as a close security partner.

    What will never happen is any future where Israel no longer exists, no matter how much it might be argued about where it should have been created or anything else. Practically all nations of the Americas shouldn't exist. Most European nations exist out of random decisions by monarchs. Tons of African and Middle Eastern nations were created by dropping some random lines on a map. This is a rabbit hole that does not end, and anyone who actually cares about finding a peaceful path forward has to accept that Israel exists today.

    Frigorific ,

    "How can we support colonisation and genocide in this day and age."

    "Israel shouldn’t exist."

    I think the answer was inside yourself the entire time.

    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@kbin.social avatar

    How do you negotiate with a state that does not believe Palestine should exist?

    tallwookie ,

    you submit. unequivocally.

    WidowsFavoriteSon ,

    False. From its inception, Israel has recognized the need for Palestinian autonomous territory.

    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@kbin.social avatar

    Then why does Israel keep occupying Palestinian territory?

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    The Israeli rhetoric is that Palestine never existed.

    sirboozebum ,

    Members of Netanyahu’s cabinet openly advocate annexation of large parts of the West Bank and have accelerated settlement construction.

    Cutting off food and water for 2.3 million people.

    The irony of Israel recreating the Warsaw ghetto is amazing.

    JasSmith ,

    Hamas has made it clear that taking down the wall would result in tens of thousands of dead Israelis. It's impossible to negotiate with an adversary which has vowed your demise at any price.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    But from Hamas’ side, the exact same thing is true about Israel.

    JasSmith ,

    There is a power imbalance. Israel could kill everyone in Gaza, with or without the wall. Taking down the wall would result in too many Palestinians killing too many innocent Israelis, so it will never happen. Nor should it.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    And not taking it down will soon result in 2 million dead Palestinians.

    RaincoatsGeorge ,

    I think it’s clear that you’re soundly in the pro Palestine camp after they murdered hundreds of Israelis. You find a way to justify that which works for you, that’s your business, it isn’t reflective of reality, it’s just your take on an issue that goes beyond your age by a number of decades.

    If you’re purely in defense of one group or the other here, you’re just wrong and what’s worse is you’re feeding into the exact narratives each group is desperate to push.

    Hamas is a terrorist organization that just committed the 3rd largest terrorist attack in human history. Israel is committing war crimes in retaliation and will no doubt invade and occupy Gaza which will cause thousands more deaths.

    The complexities of this geopolitical issue have gone well beyond ‘this is all Israel’s fault, this is all Palestines fault’. If you can’t get past that, you’re just another ignorant fuck spewing half baked ideas on the internet that has no real idea what they’re talking about.

    That sort of rhetoric is better served on twitter, not here.

    JimmyMcGill ,

    The problem with your comment is that it assumes that this whole thing started with the Hamas attack. Go back in time 2 weeks and your whole argument applies with the sides swapped.

    Israel has been killing Palestinians for decades. Hamas did what it did in response to that.

    Like get some fucking context. Palestinian innocents died and got injured in much MUCH larger numbers than Israel for a very long time.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m pro-Palestinian people. I don’t support Hamas and I think their tactics are bad and they can’t butcher civilians.

    You are replying to a person you think I am, not who I am.

    Hamas is a terrorist organization that just committed the 3rd largest terrorist attack in human history

    Yeah but that list changes a lot if you count what Israel has done to Palestinians. When you remove that from the picture, you skew reality.

    I don’t have Twitter, and will never have Twitter, so get used to me being around here. Cheers.

    Iceblade02 ,

    You do realize that Israel withdrew completely from Gaza territory in 2005, right? They haven’t occupied any land in the area for almost 20 years.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    You left out the part where they put them under siege and control the influx of water, fuel, electricity, goods, and people.

    So they haven’t occupied them, they have just put them in an open air prison.

    Iceblade02 ,

    It’s the sort of thing that happens if you keep attacking your neighbors. Hells, not even Egypt wants anything to do with the Hamas gov:t in Gaza. That’s how bad it is.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    You still are leaving out the part where Israel is the one controlling the siege. Things with Egypt are politics. The checkpoint there under Egypt’s current government has been “open” (as open as it gets in this situation), which still doesn’t mean much and you can’t get anything through.

    These people are under a blockade, completely controlled by Israel, with their own neighbours betraying them.

    How Egypt and Israel feel about the Hamas gov’t does not justify holding 2 million people hostage with no water or fuel or electricity.

    Iceblade02 ,

    Regardless of what we feel is justified or not, that is what war is - hell for everybody involved. Let’s just hope that this doesn’t get drawn out.

    tallwookie ,

    hamas should just dissolve itself.

    sadreality ,

    Looks like someone got a blank check for a genocide finally...

    Car ,

    No electricity, no food, no water…

    If everyday people have the choice of sitting and starving or doing something about it, I doubt many would go quietly into the night.

    Israel will create the next generation of extremists if they do not kill every single person in Gaza. We’ve seen this in every modern Middle East conflict in the past 40 or so years.

    ModernRisk ,

    I always find it odd how people blame “extremists” and the Palestinians for this.

    Israel starts to steal homes, land and killing men, children and women. No one bat an eye to that.

    Then extremists and hate towards Israel came and bam, they are the bad ones suddenly.

    Certainly what Hamas does is entirely wrong however - People cannot expect them be silent and get killed by Israeli forces.

    This is what happens from decades upon decades of oppression.

    This entire conflict was created by Israel stealing land and starting an genocide mission on Palestinians.

    sadreality ,

    Israel is colonining with supperior force and mostly quite or support world order.

    Palestinians are fucked. And have been for decades.

    They deff should be fighting for it but this is a futile exercise.

    Either way, the world until recently game Israel blank check but public opinion is changing on these human rights violations by an allegededly modern state.

    Gen Z in the US does seem to be all that interested in continue US support. So Israel got about 20 years to either kill them off or having to deal with palestiains under different political conditions which won't b as favorable.

    tallwookie ,

    agreed. the current generation of political leaders (boomer generation) is pro Israel. no one else really cares that much, other than to garner votes from special interest groups.

    Scrof ,

    No, decades of extremist indoctrination that is Gazan education system make extremist. Disinformation is what makes extremists. And it’s all being supported by the whole world. Noone in Gaza needs to work, they have EU+US+Qatar welfare system, they have literal nazi shit in their textbooks, they have their stupid religious excuses too, what do you think a young man raised in that filth would do with his free time except slitting throats and launching rockets?

    Username02 ,

    Utterly psychotic. Israeli supporters, India bjp supporters, China ccp lap dogs and Russian shills all share the same brain I swear.

    itslilith ,
    @itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    what a deranged view.

    keropoktasen ,

    True, just look at Japan and Germany. They took so much devastation, yet they can rise above others because they don’t have the same mentality as these people.

    Pips ,

    What the actual fuck are you talking about. The Japanese literally used suicide attacks and were so brainwashed they believed suicide was preferable to enemy capture. The Germans literally committed the multiple genocides. They were rehabilitated over time but it took time and effort. Both committed horrific atrocities, yet through international effort, are largely reformed.

    keropoktasen ,

    That’s the fuck I was talking about. They admitted their defeat, and moved on to rebuild themselves

    tryptaminev ,

    With extensive economic aid and overall support from the western allies. Also while being in control of their borders and recognized as sovereign nations.

    You are not comparing apples with oranges here, but cars with trees or something.

    keropoktasen ,

    The palestinians receives fundings/donations not only from the west, but also from the majority of muslim countries. Every ramadhan, the number of donation increases significantly. So where do you think all those money gone to?

    tallwookie ,

    a large percentage of Iran’s budget does go to funding hamas and other terrorist organizations in the general area, yes.

    ChaoticEntropy ,
    @ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

    Japan and Germany both received massive amounts of financial support and investment to basically shape them into allies. If Germany/Japan had just been beaten the shit of and left to fend for themselves under financial and social sanction then we would have already had WW3. What a ridiculous comparison that you need to stop using for this racist tirade of yours.

    keropoktasen ,

    I’m not being racist, it’s just that most of you fail to see the reality of the situation here. Germany and Japan know when to admit defeat. Do you really think they got the assistance straight away after the war? No, they sort themselves out first, and rebuilt their society. The fundings came much later. Germany even had to pay for the cost of the war for years. Over the course of 80 years, you think how many fundings palestine had received from muslim countries AND the west? The funding which were used to buy weapons to attack their neighbour and further radicalized their own children. Don’t forget that it was the palestine who rejected the two-state solution and the muslim countries who jointly attacked israel first. Even now some muslim country still rejects israel’s right to exist.

    I was an avid supporter of palestine for decades, blindly supporting them just because we had the same religion. But now, I’m also thinking from the perspective of the israeli here. If my surrounding neighbours keep threatening my existence, will I just sit around and let them plot my demise? If they just focus on improving themselves, I wouldn’t mind with whatever they’re doing with their lives.

    neshura ,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    May I remind you that Germany not knowing when to admit defeat is what caused WW2? The entire reason Germany and Japan were propped up economically was because the Americans basically shut down the French and British diplomats for causing the fuckup with their treaties after WW1.

    keropoktasen ,

    That’s the point. You have to know when to admit that you were already defeated, so you can focus on your own nation. As an investor myself, why should I invest in a fucked up country?

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Even killing every person in Gaza will just bread more extremists. Gazans are not the only Palestinians and they are not the only ones affected by Israeli oppression.

    Israel should negotiate with Hamas NOW and stop the siege on Gaza fully.

    newDayRocks ,

    How do you negotiate with someone that just kidnapped and executed or planning to execute hundreds of civilians?

    What do you ask for here? And what do you give up?

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Release Palestinians illegally detained by Israel without trial in place fo the hoostages.

    bingbong ,

    … And stop settling the west bank, revert to the 1967 borders, etc.

    tallwookie ,

    what are the numbers on that? got any sources to cite?

    snek OP , (edited )
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Here you go

    www.btselem.org/statistics/minors_in_custody

    thenationalnews.com/…/israel-holding-most-palesti…

    abcnews.go.com/…/israel-holds-1200-detainees-char…

    I have more.

    newDayRocks ,

    You know what. Sure. I think Israel will go for this.

    Release of all illegally detained Palestinians.

    In return, Israel gets

    • safe return of all hostages taken
    • complete surrender of all Hamas leadership
    • complete surrender and custody of all Palestinian combatants
    • including anyone who conspired or otherwise assisted in the recent act of terrorism
    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Feels to me like that wouldn’t work on Hamas’ side. Another situation where Israel is the total winner.

    newDayRocks ,

    Well since Hamas has already executed civilians, and Israel has both the military advantage and support of world leaders, they are not exactly negotiating from a position of strength.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t think your plan would even remotely lead to a joint country solution, more like Israel just wins.

    newDayRocks ,

    I didn’t suggest any plan leading to a joint county solution.

    You know what would not even remotely lead to such a solution? Kidnapping and murdering civilians.

    Just so we’re clear, everyone loses here. But Israel is not going to negotiate with terrorists, nor should they.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Ah sorry I mixed up the threads. In another one, I was asking people what they would do if they were Hamas to reach a joint state solution. My bad.

    You know what would not even remotely lead to such a solution? Kidnapping and murdering civilians.

    I agree. Hamas are dumb as fuck.

    Just so we’re clear, everyone loses here. But Israel is not going to negotiate with terrorists, nor should they.

    And Israel won’t care about civilian lives either. Not wanting to negotiate with terrorists doesn’t mean all those kids in Gaza had to die. This is not what “not negotiating with terrorists” looks like. What it looks like is wanting to ethnically cleanse Palestinians.

    In your example above, Israel takes all while Palestinians just get “prisoners” back (prisoners that are not really being tried for anything, a literal war crime, so for all intents and purposes they are not detained under any reasonable law and they don’t have the most basic of rights)… and Palestine gets nothing.

    Seems to me like maybe Israel should negotiate with terrorists if it means less dead civilians. But Israel doesn’t care about that. And this is why we are here today.

    newDayRocks ,

    In your example above, Israel takes all while Palestinians just get “prisoners” back (prisoners that are not really being tried for anything, a literal war crime, so for all intents and purposes they are not detained under any reasonable law and they don’t have the most basic of rights)… and Palestine gets nothing.

    Palestine also get the benefit of not having their cities ravaged while Israel troops hunt down enemy combatants. They get to keep some semblance of an autonomous nation. They also minimize civilian casualties in their end, if they actually cared about that.

    Seems to me like maybe Israel should negotiate with terrorists if it means less dead civilians. But Israel doesn’t care about that. And this is why we are here today.

    It’s very hard to make the argument that Israel should care about less dead civilians when the other side specifically targets civilians. I’m not sure why you keep expecting Israel to negotiate with restraint when they have no incentive to negotiate at all.

    What will happen if Israel does not come to the table? Hamas will kill innocent people? And if Israel negotiates and comes to peace with Hamas, the killing will stop? History shows otherwise.

    And since that killing innocent part already happens, there’s nothing left to bargain for is there?

    I also take issue with the fact that bringing accountability to Hamas for what happened is considered one sided negotiations for Israel. How is justice for a terrorist act considered a total victory?

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Palestine also get the benefit of not having their cities ravaged while Israel troops hunt down enemy combatants.

    This should never be a “benefit” nor is it a “benefit” to any other group of people.

    They get to keep some semblance of an autonomous nation.

    Yeah just a “fake” self determination, never a real fulfilling one.

    hey also minimize civilian casualties in their end, if they actually cared about that.

    If they actually cared about that? What is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like you are making shitty generalizations about Palestinians.

    I’m not sure why you keep expecting Israel to negotiate with restraint when they have no incentive to negotiate at all. I don’t expect them to. I have no hope at all that the current Israeli government will stop committing war crimes.

    newDayRocks ,

    This should never be a “benefit” nor is it a “benefit” to any other group of people.

    Then don’t harbor terrorists. It obviously wasn’t a “benefit” to the Israelis who were murdered now was it?

    If they actually cared about that? What is that supposed to mean? Sounds to me like you are making shitty generalizations about Palestinians.

    If Hamas cared about civilian casualties, they would never have kidnapped and executed civilians. If they cared about civilian casualties, they would negotiate their surrender.

    If you’re trying to spotlight Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and hoping to garner sympathy, you’re not going to have much success when the current world event topic is “Palestinians (Hamas) murdered and taken hostage innocent Israeli civilians.”

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re right in your last statement. The world has already ignored Palestinian suffering and the result now is an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Nope, no one would sanction Israel or do anything and here we are today.

    newDayRocks ,

    Ignoring the false statements you are making. If you want the world to support you, don’t commit acts of terror on civilians.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    If you want the world to support you, don’t commit acts of terror on civilians.

    Are you talking about Palestinians or about Hamas? Because Hamas coming “acts of terror” is not justified, and neither is Israel’s acts of terror which it commits daily and without anyone giving a fuck.

    newDayRocks ,

    The world will continue to side with the group that isn’t hunting down innocent people in their homes and at festivals.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    The problem with what you’re saying is that Israel commits war crimes every day. So why should the world side with them?

    newDayRocks ,

    The problem is pro-Palestinian side trying to claim that illegal detention and collateral damage from war is equal to terrorist operations that intentionally targeted massacres of civilians.

    That doesn’t work for anyone with a sense of nuance and common sense.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    I think you only applied your own logic to Israel and not Palestinians.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    The world will continue to side with the group that is ethnically cleansing Palestinians*

    There I corrected it for you.

    newDayRocks ,

    Whatever helps you sleep at night.

    Aria ,

    Israel has executed their own disproportionally large share of civilians today.

    knotthatone ,

    How do you negotiate with someone that just kidnapped and executed or planning to execute hundreds of civilians?

    You don’t. There’s no negotiating with terrorists, it’s too late. There is no good solution. The best Israel can do right now is make every effort to target Hamas, minimize civilian casualties and try to rescue as many people as they can.

    If they go nuts and start trying to exterminate in Gaza they’ll just fuel the next terrorist standoffs and keep this going for several more decades.

    PugJesus ,
    @PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

    If they go nuts and start trying to exterminate in Gaza they’ll just fuel the next terrorist standoffs and keep this going for several more decades.

    Hey, guess what's going to happen!

    I hope I'm wrong.

    But I doubt it.

    knotthatone ,

    I hope so too, but measured and calm behavior is not what I’ve come to expect from Bibi unfortunately.

    keropoktasen ,

    I imagine if Germany or Japan had the same mentality, they wouldn’t be where they are now. A good leader would focus on the future of their own people, not bringing them into destruction.

    tallwookie ,

    palestinian government needs to round up all hamas members, arrest them, and deliver them to Israel for justice. and it has to be done this week.

    CrypticFawn ,
    @CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Unfortunately, Hamas is the Palestinian government.

    tallwookie ,

    not for much longer…

    Asymptote ,

    Why not also make a list of demands to Serbia now you’re at it?

    QHC ,

    What government?

    tallwookie ,

    the one that’s bombing them right now

    bookmeat ,

    You think the ones who escape are going to turn over a new leaf? Or the ones looking on from without?

    Amends1782 ,

    I think the goal might just be to kill every single person in Gaza

    PugJesus ,
    @PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

    “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

    Jesus fucking Christ.

    snek OP ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    This feels like a humanitarian crisis that will soon become a full genocide.

    damnthefilibuster ,

    It feels like the Israeli govt has used this terrorist attack to become terrorists themselves.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    I mean they've been like that since forever, but now they're showing their true colors (more than they were).

    Pringles ,

    I don’t think it is outside of the realm of possibility that in 30 years we learn that the Mossad knew about this and were ordered to let it happen. The intelligence fuckup was so enormous that it seems plausible they at least knew something was up. And the Israeli government has proven itself cynical enough to lend such a thought possible.

    Eldritch ,

    There was rumor that they were observed training for this and the authorities told something was up. Which they seemingly ignored. Defense forces have to be right all the time however. Attackers only need to be right once. So be careful reading a lot into it.

    Iceblade02 ,

    Yep, I’d imagine most times when there have been air strikes, incursions, raids etc. Where they’ve destroyed weapons or captured/killed some terrorist leader could have thwarted similar events.

    lolcatnip ,

    For a long time I’ve thought of the situation there as a slow-motion genocide. Looks like they’re using the “surprise” attack by Hamas as an excuse to go full Hitler.

    ElBarto ,
    @ElBarto@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I think we’ll see Israel just bomb the entire strip into a crater, they’ve spent the last 20 odd years working on weaponry that’s specifically designed to destroy Palestine, they’ve just been waiting for something they can use as an excuse to use it all.

    bookmeat ,

    Now we know why Israel has been so reluctant to send military aid to Ukraine. They’ve been saving it for a special occasion.

    SCB ,

    Jewish space lasers… again?

    quicklime ,

    ok Israel, tell us you’re openly planning to violate the Geneva Convention without telling us…

    dustyData ,

    They already have for decades. It’s pretty well known they have killed wounded, children and civilian/non-combatants, and specifically target medical facilities. There’s even no actual Red Cross in Israel, the President of Israel appoints the president of the Magen David Adom. Something that only happens in a few authoritarian contexts. The ICRC has spend decades trying to get them to international humanitarian standards, but they stubbornly refused and even used financial manipulation (from the American Red Cross on behalf of Israel) to pressure the movement into folding to their demands. Even after being admitted with the approval of the red crystal, they still continue to violate the conditions of their admittance to the movement. They are not supposed to operate outside of Israel but still act on the West Bank and break the conditions all the time. They’re the only Red Cross who is mandated by their state to act as an arm of the army in the event of a war. Something that is explicitly against the principles of the movement and the Conventions.

    OldQWERTYbastard ,

    Best not to poke bomb the sleeping giant.

    520 ,

    They are "acting accordingly" by performing an ethnic cleansing. How disgustingly ironic.

    salton ,

    But the thing is Hamas fucked themselves and the people of Palestine with their recent attack. No one on an international level will bat an eye at what Israel does with the Palestine in the near future. Hamas knew that there would have to be a massive response from Israel but the attack was allowed to take place and no one in Palestine cared enough to stop it. Anyone innocent needs to flee for a border because the laws of physics are just going to play out now.

    SARGEx117 ,

    “no one will bat an eye”

    Where were all the batting eyes when the shoe was on the other foot?

    salton ,

    It doesn’t even matter now. That’s how stupid the attack was.

    520 ,

    No one was coming to their rescue anyway. Everyone else was already turning a blind eye to Israel's abuses.

    salton ,

    Unfortunately the perception of the people of Palestine as being victims of a more powerful state protected them from a lot of actions Israel could have taken but didn’t.

    SARGEx117 ,

    “people recognizing state sanctioned violence made it a lot harder to commit crimes against humanity, so be happy they’ve been allowed to live this long”

    salton ,

    They chose this fight. If Egypt doesn’t want them because Palestinians have caused coup attempts and general terroristic activities in their country. They can swim if they like.

    tallwookie ,

    when did Israel invade hamas territory, kill hundreds of innocent civilians, capture hundreds more and then threaten to execute the hostages?

    neshura ,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    you haven’t been following this shitshow for long have you? Look up Israels illegal settlements, both sides in this are evil and don’t give a shit about civilian lives.

    tallwookie ,

    settlements are by definition peaceful. rocket attacks are the polar opposite.

    neshura ,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    hm, there’s a name for illegally occupying territory of a foreign nation while claiming they can’t claim that territory. Ah right, colonialism. The very act of building settlements in someone else’s territory is an act of aggression, it’s in no way peaceful.

    SCB ,

    Look up Israels illegal settlements

    The west bank has nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas

    Fatah runs the west bank

    neshura ,
    @neshura@bookwormstory.social avatar

    what the…

    those two regions are inhabited by the same people, from the (former) same country. Fatah runs the West Bank yes, that does not suddenly make the people there non-Palestinians. Hamas still uses the issues in the West Bank as ammunition in their propaganda against Israel because the Palestinians in Gaza, surprise, care about the Palestinians in the West Bank.

    SCB ,

    Imagine not even knowing what is happening in the place you claim so passionately to care about lol

    CommanderM2192 ,

    Only savage, ruthless men purposefully murder dozens of babies in an agricultural community.

    There’s been decades of legitimate attempts at peace, and the only party that has stood in the way are Palestinians themselves. At one point, Israel even had proposed a plan that would link Gaza and the West Bank with their own elevated highway and railway. They would have had their own autonomy and Israel would have kept or guarded the territory that was a security risk to them (i.e. being able to fire artillery at Tel Aviv). But that wasn’t good enough for Arafat.

    Educate yourself on the history of the region, on the atrocities committed by both sides (the sinking of the USS Liberty by Israel, the latest barbarism by Palestinians, etc), and on all the failed attempts at peace. The only rational conclusion to come to is that the majority of the Palestinian population support Hamas and are brainwashed, genocidal maniacs.

    Speaking as someone who has been to the Middle East for industrial projects and visited multiple Arab countries, the only “apartheid” states in the Middle East are Arab ones. I’ve been on projects where Muslims tried to separate Americans with PhDs and Masters degrees from their teams and put them in slums just because of the color of their skin or their ancestry.

    Sick of all the vulgar “white girl” naivety in Western culture. Some societies and cultures are just evil, and the brainwashing of their children needs to be stopped.

    Dkarma ,

    The only way there will be peace is if Israel moves. Any other negotiations are pointless. There is no path to peace with Israel staying where it is.

    Ignorant statement of the day: the only “apartheid” states in the Middle East are Arab ones. I’ve been on projects where Muslims tried to separate Americans with PhDs and Masters degrees from their teams and put them in slums just because of the color of their skin or their ancestry

    Imagine siding with the oppressors and not the oppressed and trying to darvo literal genocide.

    You both sides this argument then side with the fascists. Wow.

    CommanderM2192 ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    dokapuff ,

    Don’t need to behead the babies when you can just bomb them, I guess

    CommanderM2192 ,

    Ah yes, I remember that time when the Israeli airforce saw a cluster of babies and decided to bomb them on purpose.

    You know perfectly well that Hamas puts innocents in harms way in order to cause collateral damage. Blame them, not Israel. Fuck off.

    Dkarma ,

    No they just bulldoze the houses of the babies and kicked them off the land. Somehow that makes them the good guys.

    teichflamme ,

    Dude made the effort to list a couple of things Israel did to solve the conflict by compromising and that is your reply?

    Lmao

    Dkarma ,

    There is no compromise when you steal someone’s land out from under them and bulldoze their homes.

    endhits ,

    Israel’s “peace talks” are nonsense.

    Israelis have stolen their land and homes, have performed ethnic cleansing, stripped them of their rights, and acted like they’re the victims the entire time.

    There’s no good solution here, but an Israeli solution is not any solution at all.

    “Israel offering peace talks” is like me offering you a couch after I steal your land and burned your house down. It isn’t workable.

    CommanderM2192 ,

    I’m just giving you one reply. Take a couple hours today or this week to start with Wikipedia and then find alternative sources to further educate yourself on the latest history of the region.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#1948_All-Palestine_government

    You’re wrong, you have the internet freely available to learn the truth. You can either decide that you want to know the truth, or you can be a lazy piece of shit and continue believing lies. Living a life of lies is your problem, not mine.

    KoalaUnknown ,

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

    Since you love Wikipedia links and “peace agreements” here is one.

    CommanderM2192 ,

    And thus all violence then and forever against Jews was justified.

    Of course I know about it asshole. If you think this in any way justifies any violence, then I’ve got some news for you. It was in response to violence perpetrated by Muslims against Jews, so I guess this massacre was justified we’re going to by current day leftist logic. I mean, if it’s right to respond to the massacres perpetrated by Hamas with “you reap what you sow”, then we can say the same thing about this. Read the link you fucking linked dumbass.

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, so I obviously do not support atrocities such as that and condemn them. Just feel like I need to make that distinction for simpletons such as you.

    SCB ,

    You can’t argue with these people man. They are just contrarians. Make fun of them and move on, because absolutely no one with any power in the world gives a fuck what they say.

    CommanderM2192 ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    co209 ,

    There can be no effective peace talks between the neck and the sword.

    Palestinians have always been a people with a homeland but deprived of a state, their identity forged by oppression and resistance under a succession of empires. They were not called to give any input on the British decision to carve out their land for a Jewish state. They were driven out of their land by the millions, and those that remained were squeezed tighter and tigther, slowly pushed out of the usable land by illegal colonists which are protected by the state of Israel. Palestinian statehood was neglected for long enough that Israel was able to shatter or consume all Palestinian territory, making a Palestinian state inviable.

    The state of Israel is entirely the product of imperialism, first British and now American. There can be no peaceful two-state solution because one of these states should not exist! The only peace will be a one-state peace, and it can only be achieved through bloodshed. Either the Palestinian people will finally gain their sovereignty, or the Zionists will finish building their monoethnic, theocratic paradise over the crushed bones of Palestine.

    The idea that “some societies are just evil” is a very poor excuse to justify apartheid, but it’s certainly not a new one. What is more “evil”: to hate those that invaded your land and deprived you not only of self-determination, but of food, water and a future? Or to consider those of a different religion and cultural background as “human animals”, spit on them and their religious symbols, arrest their children and deprive them of their human rights, kick their elders to the curb, drive them out of their family farms and into crowded and guarded ghettos?

    Calling that heinous conclusion you came to rational is an offense to reason and to all moral and reasonable people.

    CommanderM2192 ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    co209 ,

    My point about imperialism stands because it hinges on the creation of the modern state of Israel itself as well as its consequences. The imperialist character of Israel predates even its foundation, let alone the Arab-Israeli War. I don’t understand why you keep linking to this section about the All-Palestine government. Could you elaborate?

    I encourage you to read a bit further into that article about the Gaza Strip. It mentions how Israeli control over the Gaza Strip, both during its occupation and after, has served to operate an intentional de-development, leading to an engineered humanitarian crisis. Israel has arguably turned Gaza into the largest open air prison in the world (the article’s words, not mine), and the large majority of those imprisoned are civilians, including a large contingent of children.

    Here is a link to an article about the recent UN report which categorized Israeli as an apartheid state due to its treatment of Palestine and Palestinians. I encourage you to compare maps of South African apartheid-era bantustans and the current territory controlled by the Palestinian Authority, paying special attention to the fragmentation of territory which destroys any chance of sovereignty and independent development while allowing the country practicing apartheid full control over the isolated area.

    Anyhow, I can see that we are both very passionate about this, but I hope that you are at least able to see this from another point of view and understand that my position is not ill-intentioned. I harbor no hatred towards Jews or Israeli citizens as a whole; I do despise imperialist Zionism and the apartheid practices of the state of Israel. I believe the state should not have been created, because it is from its inception a theocratic herrenvolk democracy and a puppet of imperialist powers used to keep the Arab countries in Western Asia and the Mahgreb in check; and that the best possible solution to the Palestinian conflict is a multi-religious, multi-ethnic Palestinian state in which neither Arab nor Jewish supremacy is permitted.

    SCB ,

    imperialism

    Cannot wait til leftist podcasts invent a more accurate term for “countries doing things I don’t like” because this one is so fucking dumb

    co209 ,

    I’m not a big fan of podcasts, so I got the term from Lenin’s book on the matter; that’s the definition of imperialism I’m using. Countries which are not imperial powers do plenty of things I don’t like. I’m not claiming that one or another war crime is essentially imperialist, I’m saying that the foundation of the state of Israel is a reflection of imperialism as the current, highest stage of capitalism; the stage of the internationalization and concentration of capital through monopoly and the global financial system; reflected politically in the colonization and exploitation of the whole world and its division in empire and colony; which first dominant empire was the British and second and dominant great empire is the US. In this context, the creation of Israel is a British colonial project which was carried out without any consultation to the Palestinian residents of the area, and with the intention to strengthen the British claim to that chunk of the Ottoman Empire. Israel is now repurposed as a bastion of US imperialism in Western Asia, which serves to keep the Arab powers in check and satisfy the goals of Christian Zionism.

    SCB ,

    so I got the term from Lenin’s book on the matter

    Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Tripe is tripe.

    sirboozebum ,

    I totally agree with you.

    In the same vein, Ukraine has totally ignored various offers from Russia and isn’t a true partner for peace.

    All they need to do is compromise and give up their land.

    CommanderM2192 ,

    I’ll just reply with a meme I’m sure you’ve seen going around.

    The moment Russia stops fighting, there is peace. The moment Ukraine stops fighting, they cease to exist.

    The moment Hamas/Palestine stop fighting, there is peace. The moment Israel stops fighting and focusing on their own security, they are genocided.

    If you genuinely care about peace and others, then take some time to educate yourself. I won’t do it for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#1948_All-Palestine_government

    sirboozebum ,

    So the moment the Palestinians stop resisting, Israel will stop settlement construction (i.e. Ethnic cleansing) despite this being the opposite position of Netanyahu’s government?

    Of course!

    seSvxR3ull7LHaEZFIjM ,

    Oh god. My heart goes out to the civilians of Gaza.

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