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todd_bonzalez ,
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

Lots of heartless people in the comments who didn’t read her side of this. Honestly, I sympathize with her almost entirely.

She didn’t know she was pregnant. This is something that happens to women of her size sometimes. Not all pregnancies have the telltale symptoms. Sometimes you learn about your pregnancy as you’re going into labor.

It’s rare, but it absolutely happens.

She went from having a normal evening, to giving a natural birth alone in her apartment in a matter of about 20 minutes. She went from thinking she was having cramps to holding her newborn baby.

Within 10 minutes the baby had been dropped out of a window.

The amount of trauma this woman experienced, combined with the extreme and often immediate postpartum mental health issues, including psychosis, absolutely led to her making a completely irrational and tragic decision. I find it hard to swallow that she deserves punishment as if this were a long thought out plan to kill a child. This was a poorly handled crisis handled by a traumatized woman in a fugue state. She was not in a sound state of mind.

She doesn’t deserve prison, she deserves compassion for what she’s suffered and treatment for her mental ailments.

That they interrogated her and used her panic over her career against her as if she schemed to kill a child to further her career is honestly a disgusting angle to try to punish this woman. They opportunistically grilled a woman experiencing trauma so that they could throw the book at her.

qdJzXuisAndVQb2 ,

She murdered a baby. She needs rehabilitation, help, sure, but it doesn’t get much worse than baby killing, imo.

todd_bonzalez , (edited )
@todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee avatar

She was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Even the courts that I am criticizing aren’t going as far as you.

Regardless, whatever emotional response you have to the death of the baby shouldn’t matter in comparison to the circumstances and motives leading to it.

Your zero-tolerance for “baby killing” is what lands women in prison for miscarriages.

qdJzXuisAndVQb2 ,

Terrible attempt at a straw man at the end there, 2/10.

HawlSera ,

You’re a fucking lawyer for a prestigious car brand. Surely hiring a god damn nanny was a better solution than child murder?

Buddahriffic ,

Take a week off, go to the hospital to get yourself and baby checked out. While in hospital, order a car seat. They’ll probably give you some diapers and an outfit or blanket.

Then, when you leave the hospital, head to fire dept and place baby in the “need a baby, take a baby, have a baby, leave a baby” box.

HawlSera ,

I know you’re being facetious, but this was in Germany where workers actually have rights to take a week off, and healthcare is freer than breadsticks.

Buddahriffic ,

That’s sad that your first assumption was that I was joking because I said “take a week off” and “go to the hospital”. Not a statement about you but about the state of things in some areas.

Though it’s also sad that I silently assumed those weren’t outlandish suggestions because she was a lawyer (though, as a Canadian, I did forget for a moment that “go to the hospital” might be a showstopper rather than the minimum level of care a parent who doesn’t want their surprise baby should do before abandoning it at the fire dept).

The only part that I had intended as tongue in cheek was the “leave a baby, take a baby” bit. The comment was intended as a “this is a better way to handle this than dropping the baby out of the nearest window that doesn’t involve having to take care of the baby at all, beyond a week of dealing with it with a minimum level of responsibly.”

Alternatively, put the baby in a box with a towel, drop it off in a location where it can survive 5 minutes and call 911 to that location. Or call an adoption agency.

shekau ,

birth took place ten minutes prior to the tragic incident

Bro got spawn-killed

njm1314 ,

I’m not sure she’s actually wrong in the part about it Jeopardizing her career, because let’s face it sometimes that’s true. However did that not occur to her before she had the child? Surely she should have known that and not had a kid if that was her main priority.

HawlSera ,

Or, she’s a lawyer for a luxury car company…

So hire a god damn nanny?

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

What the fuck

Finkler ,

Exactly…

FlowVoid ,

Sounds pretty awful, but remember that prosecutors don’t have ESP. So “prosecutors claim she didn’t want to jeopardize her career” is not the same as “she didn’t want to jeopardize her career”.

It’s not like she wrote in her diary “Today I killed my newborn because I thought it would interfere with work.”

Dud ,
@Dud@lemmy.world avatar

Yea I don’t think many are as focused on the motivation part as much as the lady defenestrating a fuckin baby.

FlowVoid ,

That’s fair. Pure unfounded speculation: I wonder if there was an element of post partum psychosis.

Ulvain ,

My guess: didn’t know she was pregnant until very late. Options were dwindling or nil. She was completely and insanely career obsessed and career-anxious.

Arrives the last month or two. Pregnancy is hard to ignore then, but it was probably daily terror and panic as she didn’t know what to do. She probably felt cornered, insane with anxiety and barely holding it together in a field that doesn’t give you any room for error.

By the time she has to deliver, her brain is likely already pure soup from the anxiety, obsessing with how she can’t handle it, how it can’t be happening, how she can’t be a mother, doesn’t want to be a mother, can’t - not doesn’t want to, but can’t! CAN’T you understand?! - stop to work.

So she delivers secretly. By this point she’s too far gone, mentally a complete mess, insane, unstable.

So she kills her newborn.

Not as a heinous premeditated act of hatred, violence and mischief, but as a completely insane act of post partum depression, psychosis, work related anxiety and sheer craziness.

She didn’t choke or shake the baby then dug a grave at night - she didn’t do some elaborate crime and elaborate body-hiding shenanigans.

She threw. The. Baby. Out. Her. Own. Window.

And she’s a lawyer.

There was no attempt whatsoever to not get caught or to act surreptitiously.

Just pure terror, psychosis and a horrible, tragic impulse that ended up terminating a new life and ruining another.

Sorry i got carried away lyrically lol.

Kecessa ,

Yeah the title doesn’t mention that she gave birth in secret and threw the baby out her window 10 minutes later…

MataVatnik ,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah this is a pretty important detail I think.

kshade ,
@kshade@lemmy.world avatar

German-language media says that she claims to not have known that she was pregnant, her Internet search history showed she likely did. Defense said that she was traumatized and had suppressed that she knew. Psychiatric evaluation says she was fully accountable. It’s kinda obvious that there was something very wrong going on, though.

swr.de/…/mordprozess-landgericht-junge-frau-lauff…

coolteathatisgreen ,

" Hoech claimed Jovanovic was unaware of her pregnancy and overwhelmed by the sudden birth."
How can one unaware of her pregnancy until give birth ?

FlowVoid ,

It happens.

afraid_of_zombies ,

You think you would notice missing 9 periods, having your entire nipple area change color and produce milk, need to go pee every thirty minutes, feet swelling, rapid temperature changes, focus problems, food cravings, vomiting for three months, odor sensitivities, not being able to tie your shoes, weird fast reflexes, urge to take on home repair projects, and skin changes.

But I am positive someone here will tell me about their friend’s cousin former yoga instructor’s roommate who didn’t notice for some reason and act like this is the norm

WldFyre ,

It’s not the norm but it’s also not unheard of.

HawlSera ,

No joke I have a friend of mine who just went to sleep one night and woke up with a baby covered in blood crying on her bed, umbilical chord still attached… Glad she doesn’t roll over in her sleep

Steve ,

Gee do you think?

Pavidus ,

Now there’s a word you don’t get to use very often!

Kecessa ,

Unless you follow Russian news!

unexposedhazard ,

“Funny” list to look at if you are bored en.wikipedia.org/…/Suspicious_deaths_of_notable_R…

Lots of uses of the word “window” in there

JudahBenHur ,

defenstrating!

Burstar ,
@Burstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I know. I need eye bleach after reading that headline.

coolteathatisgreen ,

What the fuck I just read ?

BilboBargains ,

Let’s set aside motive and treat this woman’s obvious problem with her mental health. The last thing she needs is criminal proceedings and punishment that achieves nothing apart from getting conservative dicks hard.

LouNeko ,

As fucked up as this is, there’s so little information given by this article that I can’t even form an opinion on it.

sunzu ,

Feels clickbait but it got me going for a minute haha

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

My current take is babies should not be thrown out of windows

Imprudent3449 ,

Sure that was my initial impression too, but I think I am going to sleep on it and maybe take some polls or study the matter more deeply. Can’t be too rash when judging someone for tossing a baby out of a window.

hardaysknight ,

Yeah, what if the baby was an asshole?

LouNeko ,

'Who are we killing, I won’t do kids, that’s a rule, but the rule’s negotiable if the kid’s a dick.'

  • Adrian Pimento, B99
afraid_of_zombies ,

Also it is really important that we consider all points of view. Maybe the pro-baby throwing out of the window side raises some interesting arguments. Let’s hear them out

MataVatnik ,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Personally I like to listen to all sides

Cypher ,

Fucking extremist!

charade_you_are ,

You say that but it’s well known some of them babies are out to get ya

HelixDab2 ,

Hmmm. It looks like Germany has fairly strict limits on the availability of abortion; it’s on-demand up to 12 weeks, but requires mandatory counseling first. It seems like perhaps expanding abortion access to on-demand up to the point of realistic fetal viability and eliminating the counseling requirement might–might–have led to a different outcome here.

I wonder if she had attempted to terminate her pregnancy prior to this point?

For the people saying that she should have just adopted the infant: that’s extremely difficult for someone to do, even if they know that they don’t want a child or are not capable of caring for it. I’ve seen multiple teens end up keeping children that they didn’t plan on, didn’t want, and had no means to care for, all because they couldn’t go through with an adoption in the end.

SirDerpy , (edited )

deleted_by_author

    •
    HelixDab2 ,

    she threw one out of a moving vehicle.

    Building. She threw it out of her apartment.

    ReveredOxygen ,
    @ReveredOxygen@sh.itjust.works avatar

    If you can’t stand to give your baby up, you’re also not going to be willing to throw it out the window

    bob_lemon ,

    The government has called up an expert committee and asked for their opinion on potential reforms.

    The report came in April, and it strongly suggests making it actually legal in the first 12 weeks (it is currently only decriminalized) and getting rid of the mandatory counseling. They leave it up to the lawmakers to deal with week 12 to 22 (where the fetus starts being able to sustain itself).

    The government has not yet started on n implementing this, however.

    MTK ,

    Those speed runners find the weirdest bugs in the simulation

    prole ,

    Holy fuck lol

    some_guy ,

    Defence attorney Malte Hoech, 53, presented a contrasting view, arguing that the incident was a tragic accident. Hoech claimed Jovanovic was unaware of her pregnancy and overwhelmed by the sudden birth.

    So your client is intelligent enough to earn a law degree and achieve a high rank at a prestigious multi-national, but too stupid to figure out she’s preggers? Yeah, that’s believable.

    Drewelite ,

    I’ve known some workaholics, And they can be pretty oblivious to everything that isn’t in the lane of their work life. Their own health, already born children, basic life stuff, etc… Also stress induced amenorrhea is a thing .

    This psycho should absolutely go to prison. But it’s possible she’s at least being honest.

    some_guy ,

    Interesting take. I’m open to it. Thanks.

    DrFuggles ,

    it actually is. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonaticide?wprov=sfla1 has a bit to say on it, but doesn’t go too much into the root causes. The majority of cases as far as I understand it stem from the mother not wanting to accept that she is pregnant. This is a delusion, mind you, and if untreated, can have dire consequences as shown here. To mothers who are not adequately prepared for birth (because they, for whatever reason, have repressed their pregnancy), giving birth must be about as traumatizing as if I were to wake up tomorrow with a third leg (that wants to be fed).

    The German-language coverage of this is also very hit and miss. most outlets, like here, put an emphasis on here being a Porsche lawyer, which is a) bending the truth somewhat for shock value (she’s a contract counsel for their financing subsidiary iirc) and b) completely irrelevant, as other outlets point out that this pathological behavior does not know class boundaries.

    phoenixz ,

    Thanks for that very reasoned response

    samus12345 ,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    https://i.imgflip.com/8x9iz4.jpg

    someguy3 ,

    Fuck dude.

    samus12345 ,
    @samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

    I know, I’m awful. At least I had the decency to edit out the last panels.

    TheMightyCanuck ,
    @TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works avatar

    It makes the joke just that much more of an oof tho.

    10/10 my friend

    phx ,

    I think that makes it even better. Fucking dark, but still funny because we all knew right away what the last panel would look like were it there…

    Raptor_007 ,

    Ok I legitimately laughed at this. Well done, sir.

    needanke ,

    Please repost that as its own meme, this is gold!

    AeonFelis ,

    WDYM “its own meme”? Comedy is all about context, and this meme is only perfect because it’s in the context of this story.

    needanke ,

    Generally sure, but I think part of the context that makes this funny is the meme format itself, which is why I think it would also work without the context of this post.

    Hegar ,
    @Hegar@fedia.io avatar

    This just sounds like post partum depression to me.

    Twinklebreeze ,

    Post partum psychosis.

    card797 ,

    I can’t even begin to understand what it’s like inside a woman’s brain after childbirth. My wife struggled through it and came out ok. I’m glad I could help her.

    cybersandwich ,

    I read that the hormone swing from pregnancy to “back to normal” the month or so after is the fastest swing in hormones a human can experience.

    It can absolutely fuck up your brain during that time + lack of sleep + stress. It’s a recipe for this kind of thing.

    Patrizsche ,

    You’re all rational and empathetic about this smh

    Hegar ,
    @Hegar@fedia.io avatar

    That's definitely how I try to be! 😊

    prole ,

    “Just”

    Addv4 ,

    So, I’m guessing abortion is banned or banned early in Germany?

    FlowVoid ,

    She claims she didn’t know she was pregnant.

    FartsWithAnAccent ,
    @FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

    Did she not know about adoption either?

    AGreenPurple ,

    You also have the option to give up newborns at hospital sites anonymously and safely without any fear of persecution. I would have expected that you would know such a thing if you’re smart enough to become a lawyer, this was anything but a rational decision.

    vxx , (edited )

    It’s complicated. Basically it’s illegal, but there’s exceptions. The one exception that makes this law very weak, is that it isn’t illegal anymore if you got counseling at a place specialised for it.

    Rape and medicinic reasons are also exceptions and counseling with the doctor is enough in that case.

    It also has to happen in the first 90 days after getting pregnant.

    Creat ,

    This is a very complicated and backwards way of saying: it’s not illegal, you’re required to talk to a specialized counselor first though. That’s also frankly not an un reasonable requirement.

    It’s not that complicated.

    JimSamtanko ,

    I guess she didn’t think infanticide would hurt it? She’s clearly not a good lawyer.

    overload ,

    Insane. I can’t imagine a woman doing that to her own newborn baby. Defenestrating a baby would also ruin her career, so I guess she has a lot of other things going into that decision.

    Kalkaline ,
    @Kalkaline@leminal.space avatar

    It’s not a logical decision.

    overload ,

    My point exactly.

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