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TokenBoomer ,

Minnesota: “I’m breaking up with you.” Uber/Lyft: “You’re not breaking up with me, I’m breaking up with you.”

Fedizen ,

“we don’t want to pay min wage” -billionaire run companies who cannot pay people competitively with taxi services 10 years ago.

jennwiththesea , (edited )
@jennwiththesea@lemmy.world avatar

Minneapolis should make public transit free for a few* months, to encourage folks to use that instead. Golden opportunity.

nutsack ,

public transit?

LeafOnTheWind ,

For the areas it covers, Minneapolis has a pretty good public transit.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

its pretty cool you can go from home to work to the store and back home without ever going outside. lifesaver in some of the harsh cold winters

LibertyLizard ,

We support a minimum earning standard for drivers

Is that why they spent millions to defeat a law in CA that would have clarified that their employees are in fact employees and should be covered by minimum wage laws?

I have to wonder how hard it would be to build some kind of open source platform to compete with these companies. Then the drivers will be free to set their own rates and this rent-seeking behavior can be undermined.

aniki ,

That’s why emails come from a no-reply address. You need the media to draw attention to the bullshit. Good luck with that.

Chozo ,

I have to wonder how hard it would be to build some kind of open source platform to compete with these companies.

I'd have to imagine that the answer to that is "really damn hard". Look at any Lemmy instance and see how hard it is just to create and maintain an open source "comment section for the internet" platform; now imagine managing thousands of financial transactions on that platform, processing background checks, establishing some sort of trust and security team, and people's livelihoods depending on that all working reliably all the time.

There's a reason why only VC-backed companies have managed to get off the ground in this space; it's hella expensive for a bunch of volunteers to manage.

NotMyOldRedditName , (edited )

I’ve always thought that a smart contract system on a blockchain like Ethereum could make for a really good ride share app that’s focused on the drivers running their own independent business.

It would solve the payments problem. It could also automate the requesting and accepting a ride.

The drivers could post their own rates

The contract could take a small fee out of the ride fare to help fund the devs.

And with the latest Ethereum upgrade this week, you could transact for pennies.

I’m still not sure how decentralized trust would work though, and how you’d get licensed.

Real time map updates might be a problem too, but maybe the driver app and rider app could find each other and open a websocket and stream GPS locations peer to peer instead of via any centralized server? This part might be more janky at first vs a central service.

Edit: and the service could run on a stable coin so people aren’t subject to volatility

Edit: just thinking on the GPS… if the driver publicly posts a web socket/api address you can connect to peer to peer, what if it only accepts connections by the current active ride. So the riders wallet signs the app request to open the socket and then the two parties can start sharing their location? That way it only gets shared to the appropriate people. But if a driver wants to know where before accepting, the rider would need to publicly post the where, so maybe you only post to 2mile radius or something, and the actual address gets done peer to peer if accepted?

Edit: also the contracts are open source, it’s the front ends that would be the developers business, and technically anyone could copy the smart contracts and write their own front end to them, and if it took off, I imagine people would eventually write an open source front end as well. It’d help keep costs down as if you were too uncompetitive someone else could enter.

Edit: and if it was just an open source front end, no city would be able to stop it. It’d be forever accessible where someone could post they are available to pick up, and anyone could post they need a ride. Trust wouldn’t even need to be solved by this specifically, trust is a problem other people/business can solve and it just hooks into this.

Chozo ,

You're identifying all the reasons why a team of volunteers haven't been able to manage such a feat yet.

NotMyOldRedditName , (edited )

Hahaha you’re right, it’s still not simple, it just makes the payments and connecting two people easier. The rest is still a lot of work and there are many unclear solutions to some problems.

It does remove all the need for centralized nfrastructure like AWS though which would lower costs

I think something like this though could be the solution to the gig work people getting the shaft. It’d give the power back to them.

Ghostalmedia OP ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

The shitty gig companies decimated the taxi industry, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see things like drunk driving tick up, especially come winter.

I hope the city can incentivize something new to fill the void. And hopefully they can also put guardrails around it so drivers and passengers don’t get screwed.

iopq ,

The industry got decimated due to being worse than the apps. The apps 100% exploit drivers, but let’s not act like calling a cab was such a good experience 20 years ago.

MamboGator ,
@MamboGator@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    aniki ,

    I’ve had shit service and terrifying experiences no matter what cunt was behind the wheel. This talking point, probably invented by an advertising company doing PR for the taxi industry, needs to fucking die already.

    ABCDE ,

    Yeah no. Taxis are dodgy and often thieves with low to zero accountability.

    PrettyLights ,

    I stopped riding in cabs after the umpteenth time of getting pressured to pay in cash instead of credit card or being told the “meter was broken” and I had to pay a flat rate.

    Ridesharing has a lot of problems but they’re a much better customer experience.

    echo64 ,

    The apps weren’t profitable. They sold rides for less than it cost them, which killed the industry. That’s what all disruptive companies do, sell for an unprofitable price and have investor money make up the difference.

    Taxi companies could not compete. How could they? It didn’t matter if they were good or bad. There was no chance to compete because they all went out of business.

    Again, the apps didn’t win because they were better, it’s because they didn’t allow competition. In a sane world they would have had to have made a profit, and the taxi companies would have made their own app, and things would be pretty much equal across the board. But that never happened.

    ABCDE ,

    Again, the apps didn’t win because they were better, it’s because they didn’t allow competition.

    I rarely ever took cabs or other such transport because they’re universally dodgy as fuck. Apps made it convenient and accountable, thus succeeded.

    echo64 ,

    You miss the point, taxi companies couldn’t compete with apps, they couldn’t have their own app. Because of investor lead disruption

    ABCDE ,

    Some taxi companies made their own applications.

    echo64 ,

    Again, they did and failed because they couldn’t compete because investors paid for the likes of uber to run everyone out of business. I don’t know how more I can explain this to you, but you don’t seem to understand.

    ABCDE ,

    they couldn’t have their own app

    There was nothing stopping them and they set their own up; I’m referring to places in the UK where I know it happened, and some other countries too (SEA).

    I don’t know how more I can explain this to you, but you don’t seem to understand.

    Likely because of your explanation in the first place.

    echo64 ,

    okay you are obviously taking this far too literally, obviously they could make an app, but the apps could not survive and exist because the competition would undersell them, paid for with investor money.

    do you see what i’m trying to get through to you yet? everyone is saying “well the apps are better!” when the reality is that the big investor backed corporations like uber pushed all the smaller taxi firms out with uncompetitive price undercutting, they didn’t die out because they didn’t have an app, they couldn’t survive with an app or without - they couldn’t make that app to make you happy because you’d still pick the 20% cheaper one anyway

    ABCDE ,

    Well yes, I read what you said as you wrote it. I can’t infer very well over text.

    BombOmOm ,
    @BombOmOm@lemmy.world avatar

    Honestly, it was both, plus a third thing.

    • Uber/Lyft pay like shit and run at a loss.
    • Cabs almost universally sucked. Nobody wanted to use one outside of somewhere like NYC; and only then because parking sucked so hard driving yourself is an even shittier option than the shitty cabs.
    • In places like NYC, the government over regulated cabs so hard the medallions cost into the 6 and 7 digits of dollars. Out-competing that simply involved…not paying 7-digit sums of cash just for the ability to work as a cabbie…
    ripcord ,
    @ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

    I still don’t understand how Uber and Lyft can be so expensive to run.

    stoly ,

    They aren’t. You’re paying a smallish dev staff and some people to answer emails. The rest is pure profit. If you’re not making money then you’re an idiot.

    Ghostalmedia OP , (edited )
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    100%

    American cabs fucked passengers. Gig companies fucked drivers.

    I recently said “fuck it, I’ll take a cab from the airport cab pool.” It was like immediately time traveling to a differently shitty moment in history. The cab smelled like it was made out of Newport filters and ass, and when we got to my home, the guy refused to take a credit or debit card.

    Dude was picking up people from the international terminal, where they were often landing without local currency, then he would tack on a trip to the bank, with the meter running.

    He had Master and Visa card stickers on his car.

    DoctorRoxxo ,

    That’s when you refuse to pay, not your fault their card reader is “broke” and they didn’t inform you when you got in. They can get fucked, they tried pulling this shit on me before. I straight refused to pay cash.

    Ghostalmedia OP ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, that’s what I did. I said, you can take me to the bank for free, or I can not pay you.

    After arguing with me he then relented and one of these magically appeared.

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b6184afb-8a15-4719-b32e-aa7d579df84f.jpeg

    Pacmanlives ,

    Man I have not seen one of those credit card carbon copy machines in a long time! It’s funny current credit cards will not work on them since they don’t have any raised numbers

    Ghostalmedia OP ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    Haha yeah. My CC doesn’t even have numbers on the card. They’re in an app so they can be quickly swapped out if the card is compromised.

    fidodo ,

    Yeah, fuck taxis to hell and back. I know Uber and Lyft suck for the drivers but I try to help out by being polite and leaving a good tip.

    stoly ,

    Exactly. If you’re in NYC or SF, fine, just hail one. If you’re anywhere else you’re gonna wait 1.5 hours.

    fidodo , (edited )

    What do you mean? You can just call their dispatch line and talk to an incredibly rude person over the shittiest phone connection imaginable then try to describe your location and hope that they heard what you said correctly from their mumbled response and hope they might show up and then charge you an unknown amount that you didn’t know until you reach your destination while having no idea if they accept card or will demand a tip.

    Blackmist ,

    The whole gig economy needs to be stamped out. In a capitalist society the role of government should be to protect people from corporations and they’re not doing it.

    It’s such an obvious scam as well. “Oh it’s not down to us what our contractors pay their employees!” as if they don’t know exactly how much it takes for them to hire people to do it at minimum wage and then paying somebody else substantially less.

    fidodo ,

    The taxi industry let themselves get decimated because they fucking sucked and refused to improve their services. Not defending uber or Lyft, but taxis really fucking sucked and they got decimated because people were more than happy to ditch them for something better.

    pete_the_cat ,

    Fuck Lyft. I stopped using them after I dropped my phone in a ride and it took the idiot customer service agent FORTY FIVE MINUTES to reach out to the driver. They kept asking me to login to my account to verify it was me, but I couldn’t because it kept sending the 2FA code to my phone… Which I didn’t have. The agent wasn’t able to comprehend this.

    EvilLootbox ,
    @EvilLootbox@lemmy.world avatar

    What about Uber Eats and Doordash and the others? Do they have to comply with the new minimum wage or shut down too? Hoping they can make a decent wage.

    Uber was forbidden from setting up where I live but Uber Eats is a thing here.

    hperrin ,

    Bye, Felicia!

    STOMPYI ,

    Good riddance.

    Russianranger ,

    I guess there is going to be a split on this in terms of what people think. Obviously ride share drivers would love this, and since the only time I’m in Minneapolis is when I’m on business, it’s my company footing the bill, not me.

    However - if it was me footing the bill, I’m sure I’d be much less inclined to take a Lyft/Uber. However, ending ops over this is stupid, because there will be people that will pay for it, business or personal. Let the market decide what’s palatable.

    Everyone’s wallet is shrinking due to the rampant inflation over the past several years, and if you’re a full time ride share driver, it’s hard to cut even with the rising costs all around. Even before the inflation was hard. Vehicles don’t run on hopes and dreams and need maintenance.

    hperrin ,

    Wouldn’t it be great if our wages were keeping up with inflation.

    rdyoung , (edited )

    This is the beauty of self employment. As I said in a previous comment, I’m a driver and one of the apps I work along with my own service give me the ability and freedom to raise my own rates when I feel the need. Truth is though, as it stands, most uber and lyft drivers could make more than enough if the companies were forced to pass on a percentage instead of low balling offers. Very rough math says they could pass on a fixed 80% and charge the rider whatever they feel like at any point in time. This would give them more enough profit along with covering all costs. They won’t do this because they are greedy and states/cities won’t make them do it because they are stuck in the hourly mindset when most IC work is not hourly. This job is all about miles. Watch dead and wasted time of course but it’s not all about the hourly.

    nickhammes ,

    But it’s a tactic, right? They could still make money, if a bit less, by operating in Minneapolis. But they can put pressure on residents to try and get it repealed by stopping, and try to send a message to other cities.

    iopq ,

    No, they barely make money as it is

    Lyft is losing money, Uber is barely profitable

    nickhammes ,

    As a whole, yeah, but top-line losses don’t mean each ride makes them less profitable. My understanding was their margins are slim enough they need a lot of rides to subsidize their fixed costs, so fewer rides means less profit, not less loss.

    If Uber is actually profitable, stopping operations in Minneapolis really should make them less so. If this isn’t them taking a small loss now because they believe they’ll avoid a bigger loss later, I can’t make sense of it.

    iopq ,

    Yes, they could make a very tiny profit from a decently sized city, but then it might encourage other cities to follow suit.

    The costs are not all fixed, covering another city means paying more support agents, having people signing up local drivers, etc. so after this change it might not even be profitable after all

    nickhammes ,

    That’s my point though?

    If costs like support agents that scale with rides make the rides unprofitable, their business model is upside down. Especially for Uber, I’m counting costs that scale with rides with costs per ride, vs infrastructure and truly fixed costs. Maybe they’re so close to breaking even per ride that raising costs depresses demand enough to make them unprofitable, but it seems a lot more likely they’re doing this to send a message first and foremost.

    rdyoung ,

    Uber is making way more money than they let on. They got caught stashing millions over seas. They and lyft both take over half of the transaction on average and have reduced their support teams to mostly bots and people who can barely read.

    iopq ,

    Millions? That’s almost as much as they make in a day

    rdyoung ,

    Tell us you don’t understand gross revenue versus net profits without telling us.

    iopq ,

    Uber increased the cash on hand by 139M in the 4th quarter, so they definitely make more than a million a day net profit

    rdyoung ,

    I’m a driver in another state/city but if I lived in Minneapolis I’d be loving this.

    Why?

    I drive uber, empower (a service launched in my market) and I’m building my own service. Getting uber and lyft kicked out of town will do amazing things for the industry and the drivers and riders. Regional services will pop up and this will help filter out the drivers who know how to run a business and act professionally and those who shouldn’t be self employed and customer facing.

    I’m on track to pull 6 figures in the next year or two. I’m currently in the process of upgrading to an EV, later this year we will be buying my wife a phev mini van for her to main and I’ll use it for business if needed as well as for road trips.

    Kraven_the_Hunter ,

    And at least Lyft is sending emails to customers making it sound like paying a decent wage makes their business model unsustainable.

    Neato ,
    @Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

    Which is weird because what’s their overhead? They run an app. 99% should be going to drivers.

    fitgse ,

    They have to pay hundreds of millions a year bribing politicians across the world!

    ABCDE ,

    Card fees, keeping it updated, onboarding drivers and doing checks, accounting for fraud, employees, advertising. 99% is a silly figure to request.

    Chozo ,

    Yeah, apps that offer a live service across the globe 24/7 definitely run themselves. It's just a silly little computer, after all. Totally.

    skizzles ,

    You’re right even though you’re getting down voted.

    Doesn’t make Uber or Lyft any less shady of a company but so many people have no idea of the overhead it takes to “run an app”. They think that it’s just some computers talking over the Internet that they pay 100$ a month for and not the possible 100’s of thousands of dollars they pay monthly for the infrastructure to support those apps.

    It’s not an offline game that someone can just download and play, it’s a live service that is running, plus all of the data whether financial or otherwise that is being stored on multiple levels of backups not to mention the security infrastructure that needs to be maintained etc etc etc.

    That being said, I’m not defending these companies in the slightest, but for someone to just say “run an app” is a massive understatement.

    Chozo ,

    You're right even though you're getting down voted.

    Par for the course at LemmyWorld. Redditors brought their Redditor attitudes to LW and downvote anything they could possibly conceive as corpo sympathizing.

    KevonLooney ,

    It’s relatively cheap to maintain the service. What costs money is marketing and expanding that service. That’s what most people are working on.

    Remember, Lyft and Uber have thousands and thousands of people giving them money every day. They don’t even maintain the cars, they just take a cut off the top. Sometimes greater than 50% of the ride.

    They are making a ton of money, but they are also wasting it on new markets, new features, and Superbowl ads. They could easily just charge a little more in Minneapolis to make the same money, but they don’t want the drivers to win.

    Chozo ,

    It's relatively cheap to maintain the service.

    "Maintaining" means more than just leasing out a few server farms. It also means hiring software engineers, customer/driver support staffs, HR, legal teams, designers, etc, all of which are required to keep the day-to-day going. Uber and Lyft aren't small operations, by any means. They are monstrously huge projects that require a lot of bandwidth - both technical and human - in order to keep the lights on.

    For what it's worth, Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, and pretty much every gig app out there have all operated at a net loss from the very beginning. It's not just expensive to maintain the service, it's impossibly expensive.

    KevonLooney ,

    It’s not impossibly expensive. Uber is a public company and you can just read their annual reports. Their gross profit margin ranges from 38% to 45%.

    They spend $4 to $5 billion every year on sales and marketing, more than any category besides cost of revenue (actually running the app).

    …cloudfront.net/…/bbb206f1-a6ba-4521-82cf-ae2d401…

    No, they are not just trying to keep the lights on.

    iopq ,

    It is already unsustainable, they are losing money

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