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Exiled Chinese artist Ai Weiwei: 'Censorship in West exactly the same as Mao's China'

He was responding to a question about the cancellation of his exhibition by the Lisson Gallery in London in November following comments on social media referencing the Israel-Hamas conflict.

His post, which was subsequently deleted, suggested the “sense of guilt around the persecution of the Jewish people” had been transferred and used against the Arab world.

Referring to his own family’s exile when he was one year old, the activist said: "I grew up within this heavy political censorship.

“I realise now, today in the West, you are doing exactly the same.”

He drew parallels with the disastrous purge under Mao, which took China to the brink of anarchy.

Criticising the suspension of two New York University professors for comments related to Gaza, Ai said: "This is really like a cultural revolution, which is really trying to destroy anybody who have different attitudes, not even a clear opinion.

Ai’s art often addresses political issues in China and he has frequently criticised Beijing’s record on human rights and democracy.

DAMunzy ,

There is plenty that is wrong with the US/West but losing a private job/gig and getting a post deleted from social media is not the same as the government jailing you.

masquenox ,

He drew parallels with the disastrous purge under Mao, which took China to the brink of anarchy.

Mao is an anarchist now? Has somebody told the tankies?

Alllo ,
@Alllo@lemmy.world avatar

his name is ai. he literally makes ai art

TechNerdWizard42 ,

It’s even worse. Western censorship and spying are very strong, just like China. However many in the west have fallen for all the western propaganda without critical thinking. In China, they get propaganda fed to them as well but being less isolationist they seek out more information even if they don’t say it. Whereas Americans specifically will shout propaganda they heard and didn’t even understand from the rooftops and not care to educate themselves at all.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Americans believe that racism ended because Rosa Parks sat on the back of a bus. And that Nelson Mandela ended Apartheid with a hunger strike in prison.

The Chinese and Russians are jealous of how brainwashed Americans are

deft ,

this guy has never spoken to an American

Dark_Arc ,
@Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg avatar

In China, they get propaganda fed to them as well but being less isolationist

Ah yes, the great firewall, the epitome of free speech and globalism.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Because reading an article has proven really difficult for some, here’s some lines from the article:

So basically I was talking on Twitter, just answering someone’s question. Normally you can talk, or whatever you like. You can joke, you can make fun, you can, you know, just give your opinions.

But today I see so many people by giving their basic opinions, they get fired, they get censored. This has become very common."

Criticising the suspension of two New York University professors for comments related to Gaza, Ai said: "This is really like a cultural revolution, which is really trying to destroy anybody who have different attitudes, not even a clear opinion.

So I think that this is such a pity, that it happened in the West, so broadly in universities, in media, in every location. In universities or political sector - everywhere - you cannot talk about the truth.

In 2011, Ai was arrested at Beijing Capital International Airport and detained for 81 days. He left China in 2015 and has not returned since.

wahming ,

The guy who was arrested and detained for 3 months by the Chinese govt is using his freedom of speech to complain how the west has just as little freedom of speech?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

This person is just a troll.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Yes because now that he’s saying things the west doesn’t like he’s getting censored too.

This might be really hard to understand but China also has useful idiots which shill for them online by hating on America and get censored when they start asking too many questions

wahming ,

Do you honestly not see the difference between getting your post removed or account banned, and getting thrown into jail indefinitely? This is just another ridiculous ‘both sides’ argument which ignores that one side is multiple orders of magnitude worse

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Post removed? You mean people get fired from their job and censored from all platforms by targeted israeli slandering campaigns?

wahming ,

And… That’s worse than the govt throwing you in jail at their whim and fancy? Dude, fuck Israel and what they’re doing in Palestine, but this is a ridiculous argument.

Linkerbaan OP , (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Yes because then there’s morons online being stupid enough to think the west has free speech and even defend it.

Here’s a good video for you

Also Electronic Intifada literally had a Washington Post article by a proclaimed Zionist written against them which called them "Holocaust Deniers.

skozzii ,

If that’s the case then he should have no issue discussing Tianamen Square?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

As much as an issue as saying that Hamas didn’t commit any rape on Oct7 which is factually true.

Kusimulkku ,

Have people had an issue saying that?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. In fact multiple of my posts in the past from MondoWeiss and The Grayzone debunking many of the initial rape accusations even on Lemmy have been removed by mods for supposedly being “propaganda”.

All while allowing multiple posts from Zionist outlets such as New York Times filled with propaganda to manufacture consent for Genocide were allowed the front page. Of course, all without a shred of evidence.

Even the mods here are very complicit in censorship for israel and they still are removing many Pro-Palestinian media and even from NGO’s such as EuroMed-Monitor without any credible reason.

Now four months into the Genocide everyone is starting to realize that the rape accusations were completely false it was manufactured consent all along.

Kusimulkku ,

I was thinking some government repercussions rather than just internet mod drama

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Oh sure.

Many people got fired from their jobs for “anti semitism” including teachers in universities as mentioned in the article.

And there are many others such as soccer players and film makers that lost their jobs for speaking out against israel’s Genocide.

And AIPAC is currently spending 100 million+ dollars to and replace any politician that speaks out against them.

Kusimulkku ,

What did those who got fired say, was it the thing you mentioned?

deft ,

watch as he desperately reaches for straws!!

deft ,

you’re going to get that one moron who claims that event was some bullshit failed color revolution

cmeu ,

His “art” looks like it’s just him going places and taking pictures of flipping the bird at some landscapes? Edgy

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

He was hailed for criticizing China for being an oppressive regime. Very brave such hero.

Then he started criticizing israel and they cancelled all his exhibits.

Hyperreality ,

As reported on by Sky News.

Do you still think all Western media, like SkyNews, are Zionist controlled Linkerbaan?

I seem to remember you making that claim. You also got upset when I disagreed with you, because unlike you I don't think all western media are controlled by Israeli Jews and their allies.

Linkerbaan OP , (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I remember backing up my claims with evidence of graphs and NLP studies which you conveniently ignored and then left. Maybe go back and read those.

Furthermore not sure why you’re still using the word “Jew”. i have told you multiple times that Zionism and Judaism are two entirely different things so I’ll report your comment for anti-semitism.

ElleChaise ,

Are you now claiming that the Zionist movement does not consist of Israeli Jews?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Yes the majority if Zionists are not Jewish this is a well known fact. In the words of Genocide Joe:

You don’t have to be a Jew to be a Zionist, and I’m a Zionist

And in the wise words of Ilan Pappe describing the white surpremacist Zionist movement:

“Most Zionists don’t believe that God exists, but they do believe that he promised them Palestine”

Hyperreality ,

No no. They're 'entirely unrelated' don't ya know?

Honestly, it'd be funny if the guy wasn't spreading such icky views.

Hyperreality , (edited )

I remember backing up my claims with evidence of graphs and NLP studies which you conveniently ignored and then left. Maybe go back and read those.

Not me. Probably replied to someone else who was critical of you claiming all western media are controlled by '''The Zionists'''.

I’ll report your comment for anti-semitism.

You did that last time. Paraphrasing your claim that Israeli Jews and their allies ('the Zionists') control the media does not make me an anti-semite.

You really should take a long hard look in the mirror, instead of perpetuating nasty anti-semitic tropes. Especially when you just posted an article from a western media organisation which you claim is Zionist controlled.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Paraphrasing your claim that Israeli Jews and their allies (the Zionists) control the media does not make me an anti-semite

Yes it does. You are slandering Jews.

Also have a fun read theintercept.com/…/newspapers-israel-palestine-bi…

Hyperreality ,

You are slandering Jews.

By paraphrasing what you said? Almost self-aware.

Here's the thing. Unlike you, I don't think Israeli Jews and their allies control Western media. That's you. But hey, feel free to abuse that report button. Sure the mods have nothing better to do.

Also have a fun read theintercept.com/…/newspapers-israel-palestine-bi…

You're quoting a Western media article which is critical of pro-Israel bias, to prove that Western media are all controlled by the Zionists.

I mean...

Are you sure you're not parrotting Zionist propaganda Linkerbaan? Netenyahu likes to paint any criticism of Israel as anti-semitism, and you certainly aren't helping the Palestinian cause by going on about how western media are all controlled by Zionists.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The fact that OP is trusting what Rupert Murdoch’s outlet has to say about this shows you that they either don’t understand where their allegiances lie or do understand and are pretending not to be right-wing.

funkless_eck ,

being reductive about any process is easy.

  • Olympic medalists just run really quick in one direction
  • The Godfather movies are just a bunch of people talking about fake stuff
  • Your partner/child is just a collection of cells responding to stimulus.
  • The Hubble telescope is just a tube with mirrors in

It renders any conversation pointless.

Buffalox ,

Referring to his own family’s exile when he was one year old, the activist said: "I grew up within this heavy political censorship.

So he was already grown up at 1 year old? What a moron.

CosmoNova ,

Guy is basically just a western borderline tankie.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Except he’s allowed to say that…

RainfallSonata ,

His post, which was subsequently deleted,

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

…which was then reported on by Western media and he wasn’t thrown into a prison camp.

So again, he’s allowed to say that.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Ah yes cancelling artists livelihoods and censoring them is entirely different.

We’re lucky America doesn’t run any torture camps where they lock up people without trial.

Oh what’s that they do?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

We’re lucky America doesn’t run any torture camps where they lock up people without trial.

Which one has he been put in because of what he said? Please name the facility.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I debunked your entire point with evidence and you’re pivoting.

Address this line:

We’re lucky America doesn’t run any torture camps where they lock up people without trial.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

My entire point is that he is able to say what he wants to say without being thrown into one of those camps.

Thus it is not exactly the same.

You seem to have a strange idea in your head that it is impossible to criticize America (he said the West as a whole, by the way) without comparing it to one of history’s worst dictatorships.

Believe it or not, it’s not a contest. You can criticize both and still admit one was worse.

Either that, or you know nothing about 20th century Chinese history.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Ah the enlightened take where censorship only applies if people get thrown in jail.

Nevermind them being deplatformed and their livelihood being taken away

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Again- this is not a contest.

Let me ask you this- if censorship in the west was EXACTLY THE SAME as in Mao’s China, how were you able to post this on Lemmy?

Also- why is Rupert Murdoch still alive and publishing what Ai Weiwei has to say?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

People are openly calling for Nazi style genocide on Palestinians, even in our governments.

And anyone who doesn’t support literal Genocide gets censored.

Censorship doesn’t just equate to being thrown in jail. The West wants their illusion of freedom of speech alive so people continue to defend it.

Also - Ai was platformed on Democracy Now! as well.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yet again- it is not a contest. No one is denying that there is censorship in the West.

Censorship is not all that Mao’s China did. They threw people in camps or executed them for criticizing Mao’s government.

Do you not know what the words “exacactly” and “same” mean? Is that the problem?

That said, this is just a lie: “And anyone who doesn’t support literal Genocide gets censored.” The proof it’s a lie is your article, published by the largest private news organization on the planet, based in the West, not censoring him.

But I do enjoy you claiming someone getting their message across on mass media is being censored.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Which is also untrue because in the West we also execute people and lie about it. When someone blows the whistle they get thrown in jail. See Edward Snowden and Julian Assange. You act like people are free to speak about our war crimes while Biden is actively trying to throw people in prison for exposing them.

You must support actual Nazi style Genocide or you get deplatformed, demonitized and removed from government positions.

The irony is in how our government and media kept praising Ai for speaking out against censorship in China but then turned on him when he criticized subjects that we like to keep censored here.

Sky News is a UK outlet so it’s not American mainstream media covering this.

The punishments might be slightly different, but that is just so people like you keep screaming about “free speech”.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

America is not The West. Stop ignoring the rest of the western world and pretend he said America. He did not.

He said this: “I grew up within this heavy political censorship. I realise now, today in the West, you are doing exactly the same.”

What you have shown is that you do not know what the terms “heavy political censorship,” “the West,” “exactly” and “the same” mean.

Either that or you’re pretending you don’t, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar
FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I see, so you think what Mao did in China in terms of censorship was cancel art shows. Correct?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Mao committed Genocide and censored people from speaking about it and exposing his war crimes.

Which is quite similar to how the West commits Genocides, kills millions and prohibits people from speaking about it.

The fact that Edward Snowden is prosecuted proves my point. But you don’t know anything about that guy, you’re just an expert on Mao’s Donger

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Please provide evidence that Denmark prohibits people from speaking about genocide.

Or do you deny that Denmark is part of the West?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Gets debunked

Brings up entirely different subject

Gets debunked again

Insert random irrelevant demands here

Please provide evidence that China censors Ai Weiwei from speaking out against the Genocide of Palestinians. Or do you deny that China is censoring free speech?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Wait…

Are you under the bizarre impression that Mao is currently running China?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Please prove that Mao isn’t secretly running China from his grave

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

What the fuck?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You’re the one asking evidence for irrelevant claims. Surely you can do the same when others ask it of you

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Not at all.

The claim was that “censorship in the West is exactly the same as Mao’s China.”

Denmark is part of the West. I can show it to you on a map if you don’t believe me.

Either censorship in Denmark is the exactly the same as Mao’s China or that statement is a lie. Which is it?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Ah, we had America, Germany and France, but I forgot that Denmark is the only true Western nation.

NSA spying row: Denmark accused of helping US spy on European officials

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Did Ai Weiei specify which nation? Did he talk about spying?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You WeiWei?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I see, you don’t even know who your own article is about or what they were quoted as saying.

You didn’t even read your own headline.

You don’t know who Ai Weiwei is, you think ‘the West’ means America, you don’t know who Mao was, you don’t understand censorship and you don’t understand what “exactly the same” means, so I wonder why you even bothered posting this.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar
FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Got it. You’re just here to troll. I’ll be sure to flag your posts from now on.

HelixDab2 ,

Edward Snowden published top-secret material about (illegal) surveillance being done by the NSA. Regardless of whether or not what the NSA was doing, the activities were highly classified. That is not the same things as reporting; you’ll note that the reporters and newspapers that published what Snowden leaked (The Guardian, The New York Times, The Washington Post, others) didn’t face any reprisals from the US gov’t, just Snowden; that’s likely because the US gov’t already lost that fight in NYT v. US in 1971.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Edward Snowden exposed the CIA for violating the constitution. He was legally bound to expose the CIA.

HelixDab2 ,

If that was the case, then staying in the US to fight the charges would have been the logical step. But it’s not, so it wasn’t.

Also, he exposed the NSA. Not the CIA.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The US was also breaking the constitution why would they uphold it? You’re using a catch 22 for nonsense defense.

Also he worked for the CIA and you are right he exposed the NSA as well.

HelixDab2 ,

Claiming that the organization was breaking the laws, and so he was legally protected in leaking information–that would be roughly a whistleblower defense–is an affirmative defense. It’s similar to saying that I was legally justified in shooting someone because they were assaulting me. But affirmative defenses require you to show up in court, not defect to a hostile country that is doing far, far worse than the US has done in the last century or so.

If he truly believed that what he was doing was legally defensible, then he would have stayed and lawyered up.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Did Epstein kill himself?

HelixDab2 ,

Probably. His autopsy was consistent with suicide, and cameras not working in jails, and DoC cops not doing their jobs is pretty much par for the course everywhere. A multi-millionaire, life-long child sex abuser, committing suicide rather than rotting in prison and getting the shit kicked out of them monthly? Yeah, it tracks. It’s plausible, it’s consistent with the forensic evidence we have available, and in the absence of anything other than, “well, that seems awfully convenient for Clinton, Trump, and Prince Andrew!”, that’s the best answer there is.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I mean OK if you think Epstein killed himself then you win and I’m not going to bother debating this.

HelixDab2 ,

And exactly what evidence do you have that Epstein was murdered? Please, share with the class.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No you win. You are too intelligent and smart. I can’t argue with that.

Hyperreality ,

And anyone who doesn’t support literal Genocide gets censored.

I'm afraid I'm unable to read your comment because it has been censored.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe that means I’m posting from China because if a Chinese person posts on Lemmy their tweets don’t appear because the CCP censors them.

SupraMario ,

deleted_by_moderator

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  • Linkerbaan OP ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Whoops I forgot that any criticism of the west enforcing Genocide makes me a Tankie that denies Genocide

    SupraMario ,

    Naa, we who live in the west criticize it all the time, what we don’t do is act like the CCP can do no wrong and bring up whataboutism to defend it, which is exactly what you’re doing here.

    Count042 ,

    What the hell. Why are you on a federated platform if you don’t want to see what your server federated with?

    Go back to reddit, if you want to live in a curated bubble.

    SupraMario ,

    Cause tankies who are sympathetic to the CCP and russia, which is the mass majority of lemmy.grad and now lemmy.ml, need to be told to fuck off. BTW, lemmy.ml is real close to being defederated just like lemmy.grad was, because of the CCP propaganda that’s spewed.

    Count042 ,

    Is it? And how would you know?

    Are you on the mod team? Cause I don’t see you listed.

    SupraMario ,

    You might wanna go read some comments from your fellow ml users then.

    Count042 ,

    BTW, lemmy.ml is real close to being defederated just like lemmy.grad was, because of the CCP propaganda that’s spewed.

    Is it? And how would you know?

    Are you on the mod team? Cause I don’t see you listed.

    SupraMario ,

    Just a guess, lemmy.grad and hexbear were kicked because of the amount of crazy tankie shit from them. So a lot of those users jumped to lemmy.ml

    Not to far a reach to catch on.

    Also being an admin of an instance or part of some instances mod team doesn’t mean you can dictate that all instances will defederate anything. You do understand how a decentralized platform works right?

    Count042 , (edited )

    Do you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever?

    You implied that you had inside knowledge that Lemmy.ml was about to be defederated from Lemmy. World.

    I was asking how you know. You’re not on an admin team, so I don’t think you have inside knowledge.

    I literally quoted the line you did it, too.

    SupraMario ,

    Yes no I didn’t, I said it was close, because I’m seeing the same CCP shit tankies from grad and hexbear have moved to .ml

    No where did I say this was a fact.

    Count042 ,

    BTW, lemmy.ml is real close to being defederated just like lemmy.grad was, because of the CCP propaganda that’s spewed.

    verdantbanana ,
    @verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

    West has to look more democratic than China to keep the show mean “democracy” going

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I see… so the West “has to look more democratic” than Mao’s China by… not censoring people or putting them in prison for criticizing Western governments?

    Then it’s not “exactly the same as Mao’s China,” now is it?

    Buffalox ,

    We’re lucky America doesn’t run any torture camps where they lock up people without trial.

    Which you are free to criticize and expose.
    Yes we agree it’s wrong, but that doesn’t make the comparison to a totalitarian system right.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I find it very interesting that OP seems to believe that the West and America are the same things.

    I think Norway would be interested to find out they weren’t in the West. Not to mention Canada.

    Buffalox ,

    the West and America are the same things.

    To be fair to a large extend it is with regard to international affairs. We have many agreements with USA, that are very much dominated by USA.
    Norway is in NATO, which is clearly a US dominated organisation, because they constitute more than half the defense capability of NATO.
    In much the same way, USA is dominating in the west, because it’s the biggest economy and has the biggest military to enforce their policies, which is largely accepted by allies.
    Trump is trying to destroy this entirely, to benefit Putin and China, I think we need to accept our international cooperation with USA, and hope it lasts a while longer.

    PS: I’m from Denmark.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, but they’re talking about things like anti-BDS laws and the way the U.S. treats prisoners. I’m pretty sure Denmark doesn’t have anti-BDS laws and I know Denmark treats its prisoners much better than either the U.S. or China.

    Basically, all of their criticisms are U.S.-centric.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    By the way, they are now claiming that Denmark also has censorship levels at the same level as Mao’s.

    Buffalox ,

    Yes obviously, since Denmark is one of the top democracies in the world, with the highest level of free speech, it’s just as bad as a totalitarian regime. 😜 🤪 What an idiot. 🤡

    Hyperreality , (edited )

    I've had multiple run-ins with OP before.

    Obviously OP has plenty of nasty views (eg. thinks '''Zionists''' control all western media), but is also incredibly ill informed (like thinking Sudan used to be a French colony) and almost certainly functionally illiterate(posts links to articles which say the exact opposite of what OP thinks they do). Also almost certainly upvotes their own comments with alts.

    The reason I think this, is because in the past, OP has mistakenly quoted something someone else has said as a reply to my comment, then failed entirely to grasp that they're replying to a different comment even when I've said as much. These nonsensical comments still got upvotes, which makes no sense even if people are very partisan.

    The only reason I don't think they're a useful idiot, is because they're so ill informed and obnoxious, that if anything they're actually hurting the people they thinks they're supporting. Then again, maybe I'm harsh and they're just some dumb kid.

    I really should block them, because honestly arguing with them feels a bit unfair, even if it is funny. Also the whole arguing with pigeons and getting shit in your hair thing.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Well they don’t seem to know what ‘exactly the same’ means, so functionally illiterate is a good guess.

    Linkerbaan OP ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    MFW someone says you can expose and criticize them

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/81a1753f-f5f2-48e4-af79-b939a1f94a70.png

    verdantbanana ,
    @verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

    West has to look more democratic than China to keep the show mean “democracy” going so of course we allow more than China, but news is still being censored and journalists are being silenced in the West as well

    propaganda machines got you thinking otherwise

    has to be two teams each on “opposing sides” to get the citizens rallied in the right camp and thinking

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    news is still being censored and journalists are being silenced

    As I told OP, this is not a contest. You can criticize the West without saying it is exactly the same as Mao’s China. It is not. Because if it was, you would never have heard Ai WeiWei say so. They would have been put in a “re-education” camp long ago. And even if they somehow were able to get that message out, not a single news outlet would report on it.

    In this case, News Corp is reporting on it. In other words, an outlet owned by Rupert Murdoch is making the claim that you can’t get away with having the freedom to say what you want in the West.

    If that were true, Rupert Murdoch wouldn’t still be going strong at 92 with a vast media empire that is able to get away with lying constantly in order to be critical of the governments of the countries his news outlets are in, he would be dead.

    Socsa ,

    Hah! We’ll just pretend to respect his rights by respecting his rights! He’ll never suspect it!

    ccunning ,

    😱😱😱

    Ooops ,
    @Ooops@kbin.social avatar

    which was subsequently deleted

    ...by him.

    Only to repeat it again on tv. While crying that he isn't allowed to say what he was just allowed to say.

    Linkerbaan OP ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar
    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I have no idea what that means, but I assume, since you posted the article, that you agree with the person whose message got out in the Western media and who was not thrown into a “re-education camp” that censorship is just the same as what Mao did. Because his tweet got deleted. Correct?

    Stern ,
    @Stern@lemmy.world avatar

    I have no idea what that means

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

    He leaked intelligence and fled the country to avoid detention.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Ah, I didn’t recognize him from the photo.

    So no reason for OP to have posted his picture since Weiwei didn’t leak any intelligence.

    Passerby6497 ,

    “Man who fled country after commiting crimes to expose other crimes is a good example about how you can’t criticize governments” is a blistering hot take, and one I’m not surprised the OP is making, considering how ignorant they are in other replies.

    Buffalox , (edited )

    Yes the independent artists and journalist Snowden, who couldn’t display his art exhibition because of government censorship. That’s a perfectly reasonable comparison. /s
    Oh wait… He wasn’t an artist or journalist or even independent, he was a government contractor, who had signed not to reveal what he was working with.
    Yes it sucks that whistleblowers that reveal things that are relevant, often become victims. But we are at least free to discuss what he revealed, and air our opinion and even protest and vote against politicians and policies that defend the system when it’s doing wrong.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    So far, OP has claimed that censorship in the west, as a whole, is exactly the same as Mao’s China because of Richard Snowden, U.S. jails, anti-BDS policies and “deplatforming.”

    Weirdly, OP has not been put in a re-education camp for saying such things.

    I had no idea Mao was so lenient.

    Buffalox ,

    He was a really nice guy, who just needed to kill a few people now and then. 😜

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    Landlords unironicly deserve it

    so do facists

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    Have you read the constitution of the PRC before?

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Why? Does that change what Mao did?

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    Well first wonderful moving the goal posts, as the reason I bring up the PRC constitution is because “Article 35 Citizens of the People’s Republic of China shall enjoy freedom of speech, the press, assembly, association, procession and demonstration.” so they have the same right to speech that you do in the United States with the same garentee, If you want to tell me its only as good as the paper its written on, I will ask the same thing about the US.

    Second, what did Mao do, kick the Facists off the mainland? Kill landlords (who had it comeing, even ask the founder of capitalism), create a nation that would be the largest force for lifting people out of poverty? Please elaberate your crimes that the goal post has now moved to … given it is not just freedom of speech any more

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    The claim was “censorship in West exactly the same as Mao’s China.”

    You’re saying Mao wasn’t so bad? Then I guess there’s no complaint to be made here.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    I am saying that the West is significantly worse, that being said, I am also not going to say the PRC is perfect… just sigificantly better than the west. I was only bringing up the fact that when you mentioned “In the west you can critisize your own government” the same right applies in the PRC… Heck the PRC has more political parties than here in the US.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    The same right did not apply to China under Mao.

    The PRC constitution was ratified in 1982.

    Mao died in 1976.

    Do you think maybe the rights guaranteed in a document ratified in 1982 might be different to the rights before that document was ratified?

    No, you don’t. You’re just muddying the waters. Probably intentionally.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    They did update it after Mao died, yes but the freedom of speech was listed in the origial.

    I do think that the PRC is better than the west, and it does infact have more political parties. however my responce was to your claim that their you can critisize the government in the west but not in China, a patently false claim.

    I do not know what you are talking about mudying the waters I assure you it is not intenrional, however it was not me who has moved the goal posts … geez 4 times now?

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    but the freedom of speech was listed in the origial.

    Please demonstrate this to be true.

    I would like to see the constitution that guaranteed free speech during the Cultural Revolution.

    Do show how it squared with Wu Han dying in prison because he wrote a play.

    Also, it is a lie that I moved the goalposts. I have not once strayed from saying that the claim that ‘censorship in the West is exactly the same as Mao’s China’ is false.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    No your starting postion is that you cannot critisize the government in the PRC… I have pointed out they have the same rights in the PRC as in the west documented in the same way.

    ARTICLE 45 Citizens enjoy freedom of speech, correspond- ence, the press, assembly, association, procession, demonstration and the freedom to strike, and have the right to “speak out freely, air their views fully, hold great debates and write big-character posters.”

    Also just to rub a little salt into your wounds ARTICLE 52 Citizens have the freedom to engage in scientific research, literary and artistic creation and other cultural activities. The state encourages and as- sists the creative endeavours of citizens engaged in science, education, literature, art, journalism, publishing, public health, sports and other cultural work.

    Let me look ever so quickly at your Wikipedia link really quick, and may I note that wikipedia is known for being increadably inacurate and reactionary at all times. After just a little bit of digging I found his arrest was not due to the play in question, but general subsersive activities, that where found to be a threat to the state. Fun fact if you do this in the United States you will also find yourself in prison. I would also like to point out, why is Sweedish Citizen Julian Assange Rotting in Prison at the request of the United States government for the crime of Journalism

    3rd you have moved the goal posts, from You cannot critisize the government in china, to what does the constitution have to do with anything, to I was never talking about that you are muddying the waters, to what about this person who tried to tear down a newly formed just after its civil war government jailed. This is moving the goal posts.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Please tell me the “subversive activities” that Wu Han was involved in. Did he commit any violent acts? Who did he kill or physically harm? Or was he a spy? Did he sell secrets to the U.S.? What?

    Because I’m pretty sure the “subversive activities” were criticizing the government.

    Feel free to enlighten me. But be sure to provide evidence. So far, you’ve told me about articles in a constitution ratified in 1982, after Mao died and this is specifically about Mao’s China.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    I brought up articles from the Pre 1982 constitution, or are you conveniently ignoring that I provided the evidence you requested, interesting that when I provide requested evidence you ignore it.

    Second you have now ignored my request for information about asange. Strange, who id assagne kill or phisicaly harm, did he sell secrets? last I checked he merly did a journalism… or are we going to also ignore this and make it so only I do the responding here. It is a wonderful retorical trick to make it seem like I am always on the back foot, so to an outside observer it apears as though your winning, dispite the fact you have contributed nothing to the conversation, well besides throwing new accusiation, not responding to my counters and moving the goal posts.

    Third you have to understand the material conditions of China at the time, those being coming right out of s civil war* with a US and other capitalist funded side the ROC who flead but where not fully defeated going over to tiwan. For a state in this postion to sucseed, Especialy in the earlie years they have to be hyper vigilent, if not the US usualy will be the one to come in and cut them where they stand, just look at Most of latin america, the exception proving the rule is cuba with their over 600 attempts. or the attempts the US made to destroy the USSR. If you read the works of Wu Han, during this period, he was a class colaberationist (read facists) his play, that agian was not the reason he was arrested but was likely used as point to prove the class colaberation. If you do not think the US does not do similar you are fooling yourself, the seddition act is still on the books in the United States so “Seddicious Speach” will land you in jail too.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Haha. “You have to consider how China was at the time, therefore imprisoning people for criticizing the government was okay.”

    Got it.

    Assange is not relevant to the claim, because Ai Wewei was talking about himself. Also, Assange is not in a “re-education” camp where he will be worked to death. Has he been treated well? No. Was he treated like Wu Han? No.

    The fact that you are able to say all of this and have not been imprisoned might show that you’ve been taken in by Rupert Murdoch’s tabloid journalism, much like OP who posted it in the first place.

    You know, Rupert Murdoch. The notorious Marxist.

    I also like how you are simultaneously claiming that the statement that “censorship in the West is exactly the same as Mao’s China” while insisting that there was freedom of speech in Mao’s China and Mao’s China was not a totalitarian oppressive regime.

    Ether the claim “censorship in the West is exactly the same as Mao’s China” is false or, by your own claims, there is just as little censorship in the West as there was during Mao’s China, which, according to you, did not censor people. Either way, I’m not sure why you’re complaining about it.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    no it was not for critisizing the government it was for being a class colaberationist, there is a massive MASSIVE diffrence. you know… they where just fighting Facism … he was a facists… or atleast acting for a long period of time like a facist…

    Second he is being treated worse, Assange’s treatment is classified as torture, the PRC by all reputable sources I have found in the time we have been talking did not resort to torcher

    I can go to China and Critisize China too… Agian it is not a right exclusive to the west, the point I was making BACK AT YOUR ORIGIONAL POINT, before you moved the goal posts multiple times.

    Murdoch is a stanch Capitalist, arguably a facists, we are not the same

    I am not claiming those 2 statements, I am saying 1) Mao’s PRC was not totalitarian, it was a free society that we can expect given they just emerged from a civil war. 2) the PRC is while not perfect and free of all censor ship significantly better than atleast the United States if not the west, 3) There is significant censorship in the west"

    I never made the claim that the west and maos china are the same this is a claim you have ascribed to me and that I have not made, my origional clame, and the one I am still making is that The PRC has freedom of speech and that said right is not exclusive to the west, and is arguable better upheld by the PRC.

    Last I have still heard nothing about your false claim that I did not provide the Mao Era constitution text when I in my reply 2 ago did do so, and you blatantly ignored it, because it was inconvenent to your argument.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Again- either Censorship in the west is the same as Mao’s China- the claim in the headline and the article, in which case, according to you, there is no censorship -or- that claim is false. I’m starting to think you didn’t even read the headline, let alone the article.

    It’s very simple. It’s also the only thing I have been discussing this entire time.

    Also, I have no idea what text you provided because you didn’t link to it. I have no reason to just trust you presented it accurately. You could have just as easily made it up.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    I think you are under the false notion that my issue with your comment was that you where saying that the headline was false, That was not my issue, I too take issue with the headline but in the inverse way and we have not at all been discussing that, for any reason and I am sorry you got that impression.

    That being said that is not what we have been discussing this entire time, as I have stated MULTIPLE TIMES, my argument is that freedom of speech is not exlusive to the west as you heavily implied in your first comment, and that is what I have been taking issue with.

    And I can one tell you it is from the Mao Era Constitution, and I could have made it up, but I have integrrety, unlike you when you just without warrent or evidence said Feedom of speech is an exclusivly western thing. or in such that I only provided you the post 1982 constituiton immedatly after I provided, and cited the Mao era constitution.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    That may not have been what you were discussing, but it is the only topic I have been discussing this entire time, which is why I have brought it up over and over again.

    And, again, I have no idea if you cited that constitution because you didn’t link to it. Again, you might have made it up. I’m sure you want me to “just trust me, bro,” but I don’t.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    You are free to look it up for yourself, I do not expect yoy tp trust me on absolutely anything, but I am not going to be uploading an entire PDF into a comment

    Also if we want to refraim, I will happy argue the PRC is better than The USA, if that is what you would rather be arguing?

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    All you have to do is post a link. Just copy and paste a URL. That you refuse to do so certainly makes me think you were being dishonest.

    And no, yet again, my argument is that the claim that “censorship in the West is exactly the same as Mao’s China” is false. That is all my argument has ever been from the start, which is why I have brought it up in almost every response to you. If only you would read it. Or the article. Or the article’s headline.

    I really don’t care about your opinions about China.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    It is a pdf saved to my computer, how the heck do you want me to “coppy a url”

    I read the article headline, I too say its false, but I also disagree with you, funny how that can work, we can agree in a boolian statement but disagree with each other, my argument to you is that your starting comment was incorrect and accademicly dishonest

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure. You have Mao’s constitution saved as a PDF on your computer. Very believable. Surprisingly convenient.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    You know how often I have this exact argument in a year IRL, I am a communist, I hear “You wouldn’t be allowed to critise the government in a communist country” all the time so I have a habit of once I have to use a constitution of an AES county, or a specific edition I save it

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure you do. Because downloading a PDF of it that you can’t actually show is far better for these discussions than linking to one you can show. “Trust me, bro.”

    BrokenGlepnir ,

    But you moved the goal post? The first one to bring up the modern prc in this chain of comments was you. The goal post was Mao before hand.

    june ,

    I’m not here to engage in an argument, only to point out that this:

    so they have the same right to speech that you do in the United States with the same garentee, If you want to tell me its only as good as the paper its written on, I will ask the same thing about the US.

    Is fucking idiotic. You’re trying to argue that if one country has a constitution that it ignores but uses as a front for people like you to point at and say ‘china’s great and has free speech’ it invalidates every other country’s (or maybe you’re just arguing against the US constitutional right to free speech?) constitution because it’s also written in paper. Absolutely idiotic.

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    The US does not follow their own bill of rights worth shit, and do you mind showing me where the PRC violates their own constitution please?

    Kusimulkku ,

    If everything in a constitution must be how it is in real life, does that also cover the US constitution?

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    I am allowing 2 arguments one where we assume both are followed and one where we assume nither are followed, you may pick your path, I have found usualy americans defult to the US constitution being mostly followed but any forgin “evil” country not even looking at theirs

    Kusimulkku ,

    I’m not American

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    Ok? I usualy get the “pleasure” of arguing with americans … usualy in real life" so are we going with constitutions are words on paper or infaliable documents?

    Kusimulkku ,

    I mean obviously they’re not real life

    CooperRedArmyDog ,

    With that Established I posit, that the Quality of life is SIgnificantly better, in the Peoples Republic of China

    Kusimulkku ,

    Can you explain what that argument has to do with the topic?

    HelixDab2 ,

    The US constitution is more-or-less followed; courts largely try to interpret intent and meaning–or originalism, depending on the judge in question, and it’s mostly followed, eventually. On the other hand, despite what the Chinese constitution says about the right to free speech, assembly, etc., it’s quite clear that there is official state censorship regarding certain subjects, and peaceful assembly in support of, say, democracy will result in people being run down by tanks. In the US, you can accuse a sitting president of sexual assault, and actually file a civil suit against the president, and end up winning a few hundred million for defamation. On the other hand, if you are an international tennis star in China, and you accuse a party official of sexual assault, you will likely disappear for several months before emerging for very limited public appearances to apologize before “retiring” from tennis. If you aren’t famous, odds are pretty good that you just don’t reappear.

    You can argue that peaceful demonstrations in the US are also subjected to police repression–see also BLM–and I’d agree. On the other hand, I would say the number of people killed by state actors in the US at demonstrations usually numbers between zero and the low single digits, while the death toll at Tianmen square alone is believed to have been tens of thousands. The Kent State massacre was likely the largest number of peaceful protesters killed by police in the last 75 years or so in the US.

    masquenox ,

    Well, the US constitution does explicitly allow slavery - and the Us prison-industrial complex certainly does apply that in real life.

    Kusimulkku ,

    I think we were talking about positive stuff. It’s probably easier for people to accept that the bad stuff is real

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