There's a big difference between being against Israel and being antisemitic, and people need to see that. Heck, I'm literally Jewish and I don't support Israel.
And, as I’ve heard someone else point out - isn’t it literally anti-Semitic to assume that Jews and Israelis are, like, the same thing? And/or that Israel is, like, the global mouthpiece for Jews everywhere? Seems a bit reductive, to me… Seems on the same level as thinking the leader of Kenya, or Nigeria, or any African nation speaks for Black people everywhere.
I’ve always felt the nation of Israel is squatting on the name. Like, aren’t there people outside of Israel-the-nation that also claim to be Israel (in the Biblical sense)?
Rubenberg 1989, p. 358: “The labeling of individuals who disagree with the lobby’s positions as “anti-Semitic” is a common practice among Israel’s advocates. For example, when Senator Charles Mathias [R., Maryland] voted in favor of the AWACs sale to Saudi Arabia, a Jewish newspaper in New York commented: “Mr. Mathias values the importance of oil over the well-being of Jews and the State of Israel. The Jewish people cannot be fooled by such a person, no matter what he said, because his act proved who he was.” Former Congressman Paul “Pete” McCloskey [R., California] also has had the charge of anti-Semitism leveled at him: “When I ran for reelection in 1980, I was asked a question about peace in the Middle East, and I said if we were going to have peace in the Middle East we members of Congress were going to have to stand up to our Jewish constituents and respectfully disagree with them on Israel. Well, the next day the Anti-Defamation League of the B’nai B’rith accused me of fomenting anti-Semitism, saying that my remarks were patently anti-Semitic.” Indeed, it may be that the weapon of greatest power possessed by the pro-Israeli lobby is its accusation of anti-Semitism. George Ball comments: “They’ve got one great thing going for them. Most people are terribly concerned not to be accused of being anti-Semitic, and the lobby so often equates criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. They keep pounding away at that theme, and people are deterred from speaking out.” In Ball’s view, many Americans feel a “sense of guilt” over the Holocaust, and the result of their guilt is that the fear of being called anti-Semitic is “much more effective in silencing candidates and public officials than threats about campaign money or votes.””
I am “against” religion as I think it does more harm than good but I am pro religious freedom for everyone and a peaceful cooperative global society. So I think that makes me hardly hateful towards religions or the believers. Well tbh I have a hard time accepting religious extremist positions in societies, but everything comes with a price… I take religious freedom for everyone if that means someone thinks a book with instructions on how to abort a baby is against abortion and that it should be law.
Most extremists are worrisome. Some cause more trouble for those around them than others, though. An extreme pacifist might get more abuse than someone who isn’t, for instance, and that isn’t great, but it’s a more personal problem than trying to force your views and behaviors on others, which many other types of extremists try to do.
An extreme pacifist might get more abuse than someone who isn’t, for instance
Don’t know whether I’d qualify as extreme, but yeah, pacifism tends to be equated with all sorts of deliberate harm by some people who consider things like war and violent retribution necessary evils if not even inherently good 😮💨
Also, there’s the “sticking to your principles in spite of popular sentiment is the same as naïveté” crowd 🤦
I’m against the Israeli government’s murder of children and murder of all the other innocent people in Palestine.
Should I be against Israel itself?
Note I’m [US] American, so I’m against the incalculable harms we’ve perpetrated on the world and our own citizens over the past couple hundred years. I would hesitate - pending some replies to me here - to say “I don’t support the USA” given the very cool people and the Bernie Sanders types and the benevolent US aid organizations and the National Parks and so on (some fediverse developers)… but have an open mind and curious to hear your thoughts on semantics.
At this point, when someone says they are ‘against Israel’, what they mean is that they are against the genocide the Israeli army is carrying out in Gaza. Maybe there are some who want the country itself toppled - neo-Nazis, for example, or those detached from reality - but they are a small minority (outside of Iran, perhaps).
There is a massive difference between liking a concept or the implementation of that concept. Communism is an utopia, socialism is seen as the way to get there.
Socialism did not proof to be viable in reality, with dictators claiming to set up communist states, while not setting up working socialist societies.
The thing is that implementing such a society includes a massive restructuring of government and ownership of goods. Those measures have a very strong tendency to dissolve in civil wars and dictatorships. It is of course an option to label anyone who doesn’t want to give up resources an enemy of the class / state and imprison and torture them, but it does not create a stable society in which people actually choose to live, if they can decide on that.
I would caution you about socialism being a way to get to communism.
Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, the founders of communist ideology, believed democratic socialism was a sham and true communism could only be achieved through a violent overthrow of the bourgeois.
The complex restructuring you mentioned is why they thought a transition from socialism to communism would not work.
Man im pretty socialist who lives in ex east germany with my parents actually being parz of that time and i gotta tell you, with what i hear from them, it was horrible
Ah yes the oh so good DDR with exciting features such as
no freedom of movement
constant shortage of any goods
being a dictatorship
(contrary to your first point) a housing shortage
a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time
political pressure
control over the media
the fucking stasi
And what i mean by pretty socialist is: everyone gets equal opportunities no matter what race, religion, gender, political views, etc. I want that chad - who just lost all his belongings - has the same chance to live a fulfilled live as elon musk has. I abhorr the fact that there are billionaire’s or even just millionaire’s while other people have to choose between paying rent or eating, and those people not even being in the worst situation compared to others.
Think about why this might be, Friend. Really think hard about it. What large geopolitical things were happening at the time?
being a dictatorship
Yes, of the proletariat
(contrary to your first point) a housing shortage
Again, source? Also, wondering what you think happened before East Germany existed that might have contributed to this. Surely this changed over time
a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time
Because people working 3 jobs under capitalism have so much free time? What does this even mean?
political pressure
Again, what does this mean? All Political cultures and institutions exert pressures on their population… That’s how politics works.
control over the media
I’ll agree that the siege mentality of much of former socialism led to a lack of press freedom, which was ultimately detrimental, but again… Why might this have been?
the fucking stasi
Quick, name the West German secret police!
Let’s assume for a minute that everything you’ve said is entirely true. If we’re to be thoughtful about this. East Germany was a historically poorer, agrarian, region of Germany, much less industrialized, artificially lopped off from the west (not by the USSR, btw, who wanted a unified, nonaligned Germany, like the allies had done with Austria), it was heavily sanctioned, had been bombed to shit, much like the rest of Europe, but was made to pay the USSR reparations, that it wasn’t as capable of paying, as a unified Germany would have been. The USSR even dismantled entire east German factories and shipped them back to rebuild their own industrial base.
How do you expect any country to not come out of that with considerable problems?
And the GDR did have considerable problems. I think you and I would disagree on what those problems were, but in the broad strokes, that much we can agree on.
But I would contend that, even with that in mind, East Germany ended up being a much more positive socialist experiment in many respects then say, Romania, which suffered a much more severe centralization of power, and cult of personality issues, then East Germany did.
In fact, looking at the makeup of the East German Parliament and its mass organizations, there was a much greater degree of representation of various social cleavages then in some other Eastern Bloc states.
While you could say argue that this was only ‘on paper’, that really depends on what period of East German history you’re looking at, as the electoral system was altered a handful of times.
Regardless though, this was an expression of the fact that East Germany had a more open Political culture due to its institutions being establisehed as part of an intended nonaligned, unified, German state. And due to the fact that it had received the socializing effects of industrial capitalism that gave it things like an incredibly progressive Queer movement, that other Eastern Bloc states, which were formerly feudal backwaters, hadn’t developed.
Tl;Dr - this shit is a lot more complicated than listing off bullet points for “why East Germany was Evil”, That I was taught in the 7th grade.
Love how you counter concrete, material facts like “guaranteed housing, employment, and childcare” with fact-free scare mongering like “political pressure” and “control over the media.”
There’s never any analysis about what this shit really means. “The fucking stasi” gets thrown out there like “the boogeyman” without even a thought towards how the U.S. security state violently repressed a nationwide movement against police violence in 2020, or how right now that same security state is violently repressing people protesting the genocide we’re supplying. You’re supposed to belive the stasi is the worst thing possible without ever digging into how it functioned, and certainly without asking how it compared to other states.
im sorry but you seem to have been fed quite a few western myths about the gdr. you seem to be arguing in good faith though, so lets examine:
no freedom of movement
this is just plain wrong. tourism was possible and encouraged not only within the country, but also to fellow socialist states like czechoslovakia and hungary, as well as, albeit to a lesser extent the soviet union. such trips were enjoyed by virtually the entire population thanks to guaranteed vacation time.
constant shortage of goods
shortages were only a thing in the immediate aftermath of ww2, as well as during the 1980s. in the second case they were caused by the economic liberalization enacted at the time due to western pressure, as well as the general deterioration of conditions in the eastern block at the time, which happened for similar reasons. during the late 60s and 70s per capita consumption was more or less equal to the west.
being a dictatorship
every state is necessarily a dictatorship, as this is important for class preservation. just as liberal states will mercilessly crush revolutionary elements, so must socialist societies crush counterrevolutionary ones. please read engels on authority to understand this point better. it is a short read and very eye opening.
a housing shortage
any source on this claim? the only periods i can imagine this to be the case is in the beginning due to war era destruction and the end due to crisis.
a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time
this is in fact a valid point. a solution for this could have been found within the socialist system though.
political pressure
already answered previously in the point about “dictatorship”.
control over the media
“All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie.”
– v. i. lenin
the fucking stasi
the mfs was necessary due to the constant threat of counterrevolution going out from west germany. but its reach and capabilities are much overblown in western propaganda nowadays. in fact, the east spent much less on its intelligence apparatus than the frg while still managing to have a lower crime rate.
the goals you stated are extremely noble and i do in fact agree with every single one of them. you are being idealist though, which means that you absolutely need to read theory, especially lenin. a good reading list can be found here. if you would educate yourself properly you could become a great contribution to the communist movement.
thats exactly what the dictatorship of the proletariat is for! after the exploiting classes are eliminated, the state will wither away, leaving a classless society, aka communism. this takes much time though.
why are reactionaries always assuming that their opponents are children? only because you are a teenager living within the imperial core, consuming nothing but nato propaganda, you shouldnt assume that everyone else is an equivalent.
This is bullshit. I will refute most of your points as someone who has lived in Socialist Hungary before the iron curtain.
Housing was not guaranteed. You were assigned lodging based on need. If you had no children, you were staying with your parents and two siblings in the 1BR apartment. Once you got a kid, if you were a young couple, you got an apartment with an elderly in it, that you had to take care of along with your new born, until their death. After that the apartment would be yours. To overcome the shortages of housing, the government invested into building temporary housing called panel buildings. They were not meant to last for more than twenty years.
Education was discriminatory in the sense that those favoured by the party got a pass. You have long hair? Your dad had long hair? You are a Gypsy? Yeah sure, you can pass elementary grade 8, but you sure as hell won’t be allowed to go into a four-year highschool for your profession and graduation . Best you could hope for is a 2 year middle school for a manual labour job (szakmunkásképző). If at all. Often it’s off to the fields for you to work at the communal fields.
0% unemployment because if you are unemployed you go to prison. Off to the fields or else!
Sales tax (VAT) has been 25% even before 1988
The railway system the country has was all built before the second world war. It got maintained during socialism, but the best they could do was put train drivers on concession show trials and execute them when accidents happened instead of actually improving the system. To this day the max speed on these rail lines is 120kmph and many of the smaller lines are falling into disrepair and unelectrified.
Healthcare was universal, however it was not highly developed nor without discrimination. What was true for education was also true here. You better be a good party member or else. If you were lucky, you had a relative working in healthcare to skip waiting lines (I’ve benefited of this a lot)
This one was a given. Although you still had to pay for meals for your kid at the daycare. But the times were also different back then. Those responsible for child care were not necessarily professionals and hitting children if they had misbehaved was still a thing.
I don’t think this had a measurable comparison in any way. How do you draw comparisons?
Ahh yes, how nice. Went from nazi dictatorship to literal Russia planted dictatorships in both East Germany and Hungary ('56).
“Throughout Eastern Europe and the former USSR, many people grudgingly admitted that conditions were better under communism (New York Times, 3/30/95). Pro-capitalist Angela Stent, of George- town University, allows that “most people are worse off than they were under Communism . . . . The quality of life has deteriorated with the spread of crime and the disappearance of the social safety net” (New York Times, 12/20/93). An East German steelworker is quoted as saying “I do not know if there is a future for me, and I’m not too hopeful. The fact is, I lived better under Communism” (New York Times, 3/3/91). An elderly Polish woman, reduced to one Red Cross meal a day: “I´m not Red but I have to say life for poor people was better before … Now things are good for businessmen but not for us poor” (New York Times, 3/17/91). One East German woman commented that the West German womens movement was only beginning to fight for “what we already had here… We took it for granted because of the socialist system. Now we realize what we [lost]” (Los Angeles Times, 8/6/91).” Michael Parenti - “Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism”.
A new book by Kristen Ghodsee, an anthropologist at the University of Pennsylvania, argues that women have better sex under socialism.
If that sounds strange to you, consider this: A survey of East and West Germans after reunification in 1990 found that Eastern women (the socialist side of Germany during the Cold War) had twice as many orgasms as Western women.
What in the world accounts for such a wide gap?
According to Ghodsee, it’s about social safety nets. If, she argues, you build a society that supports women and doesn’t punish them for having children or devalue their labor, it turns out they’ll be happier and have better sex.
But it doesn’t matter how many studies or surveys or policy differences you point to – some guy always has an old relative whose story outweighs everything.
What exactly are these quotes supposed to prove? This was what, a few months or a few years after reunification? Any social change that large is going to cause some turbulence. And of course Parenti has an agenda, so he wouldn’t include someone lauding their new experience.
The problem with liberal democracies isn’t that representatives are elected, its who those politicians represent. It’s not the working class, except when it is and those politicians get Salvador Allende’d 💀.
Best not to vote then? Best to let the guy win who has promised on the campaign trail to make the lives of trans people, women, immigrants, basically everyone who isn’t a straight white male, as miserable as he possibly can, and not put up even a token resistance against Israel, because the other guy isn’t resisting Israel as hard as we’d like and is therefore just as bad?
I hate Biden too but not voting is not the solution.
So? You’re snarkily commenting on the actions of a US citizen.
You were asking me what I was about to do in the coming 4 years, probably concerning US politics.
The fact remains that there’s work to be done by the people and it will either happen under Biden or Trump.
Again: You were adressing me.
One of those options is clearly more inhabitable than the other.
It’s not about inhability. It’s about a system that’s in constant peril of sliding into fascism isn’t worth defending.
You being from another country and sowing political discord isn’t the gotcha you think it is.
I’m not trying to do that. This is an international meme community about politics (nowhere it’s specified that it’s exclusively about US politics). If I’m not allowed to show my political beliefs here: where can I show them?
Trust me: I’d rather no nothing about the politics of that failed state. But here we are with the world police noticing that it has - like all police - a fascism problem. 🙄
You were asking me what I was about to do in th coming 4 years, probably concerning US politics.
Yeah, shame on me for assuming you were commenting on something that mattered to you. Egg on my face for not recognizing that you’re just cackling from the sidelines.
It’s not about inhability. It’s about a system that’s in constant peril of sliding into fascism isn’t worth defending.
Then you’re either saying there’s no way to fix that system (which is pointless and petulant). Or that there’s work to do beyond voting to make those fixes (which, see my previous comment)
I’m not trying to do that.
Then frankly, it’s not clear what you’re actually trying to do. Whatever it is, its coming off as pointless and annoying at best and deliberately divisive at worst.
Palpatine kinda DID end the voting system (analogue to parliamentary democracy):
“The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I’ve just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.” -Grand Moff Tarkin
So, in other words, the two are more alike than is initially obvious.
I think it’s more to do with that if the collective workers vote to become a union or not, and succeeds in that vote, then the owner/company must recognize them as the union and engage in negotiations as such.
If the vote of the workers fails to choose to unionize…well usually that means the people who tried to organize it get fired because there’s no union
The second verse of “Weird Al” Yankovic’s song, Headline News, is about these two.
Once there was this girl who Swore that one day she would be a figure skating champion And when she finally made it She saw some other girl who was better And so she hired some guy to Club her in the knee cap
Now you may find it inconceivable or rather very least a bit unlikely that The relative position of the planets and the stars Could have a special deep significance or meaning That exclusively applies to only you But, let me give you my assurance that These forecasts and predictions are all based on Solid, scientific, documented evidence So you would have to be some kind of moron Not to realize that every single one of them is absolutely true Where was I?
Lest anyone accuse Yog of voting for Trump, rest assured, their post history strongly implies they’re not American and have zero understanding of American politics.
Police forcibly removing peaceful protestors who say israel is commiting genocide. To me this is trying to silence critisicm of the intitution supporting it
Then there’s Julian Assange, who the US has been persecuting from afar for the last 13 years despite 1) breaking no US laws, 2) not being a US resident or citizen and 3) not having been on US soil. It does this to threaten journalists not just at home but everywhere.
Students have always been persecuted, throughout human and US history.
It was like that in the French Revolution era, it was like that in the 60s–70s, and it’s like that in this era.
My point is that students being persecuted is by no means a thing unique to this era; it’s because college has been and still is a place where people are encouraged to think and governments have never liked that.
How is that relevant? Political dissidents like Omali Yeshitela and journalists like Assange have also been persecuted before, but why point it out?
Honestly it sounds like you may be trying to make excuses for these attacks on student protestors by claiming that they’re an inevitable force of nature. That it’s always been this way and always will be. Nothing to see here, move along. Hopefully that’s not what you’re trying to do.
And no, the state is not persecuting students for thinking, it’s persecuting them for the same reason it’s persecuting Yeshitela and Assange: for expressing things it would rather not have expressed.
It’s relevant because it seemed like you were saying that students being prosecuted for protests and other things was a recent phenomenon. I was merely saying that’s not the case.
Honestly it sounds like you may be trying to make excuses for these attacks on student protestors by claiming that they’re an inevitable force of nature. That it’s always been this way and always will be. Nothing to see here, move along. Hopefully that’s not what you’re trying to do.
Not at all. I’m not making excuses for either party. I was merely under the impression that you were saying prosecution of students was a relatively modern phenomenon, and was stating it was not.
And no, the state is not persecuting students for thinking, it’s persecuting them for the same reason it’s persecuting Yeshitela and Assange: for expressing things it would rather not have expressed.
Both are true, honestly. Universities have often been hotbeds of alternative viewpoints, and these are largely caused by said universities naturally having cultures of free intellectual thought. Establishments throughout history have generally not liked the resulting alternative viewpoints and thus have prosecuted them. For one reason or another, for good or ill. I’m making no judgement here one way or the other.; I’m merely making a statement.
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