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Ascyron ,

So… Same as it’s been since the war on terror began in 2001?

Oh, now they can assassinate white people in first world countries, not just drop bombs on weddings in mideast countries. I see. Totally makes all the difference.

(I am feeling very cynical here haha, I get this is a big significant legal precedent for the USA but yeah)

PsychedSy ,

This was kind of my response. Everyone is thinking of Trump’s shit, I was wondering about Al Awlaki. Assassinate a 16yo American citizen at a child’s birthday party in Yemen? Np.

What result did we expect except some weird middle ground that allows the war on terror and a shitload of other extra-judicial killings with no proper declaration of war? They’re codifying immunity that was already assumed.

Ascyron ,

Thank you for being a far better person than I, in that you actually give enough of a fuck to remember at least one specific, named person who was murdered in the way I was described.

This is not sarcasm it’s a genuine emotional appreciation. I don’t have it in me to remember, since all the shit news day in and day out just all blurs together and is too much for me to cope with if I tried to remember, but I’m glad someone is.

PsychedSy ,

Two. The Seals got his little sister.

It does blur. I used to watch all the videos of police murders and try to remember the names. I also used to hope we would make progress.

I think this ruling was the most likely outcome, but I was kinda wishing we’d get every ex-president, except maybe Jimmy Carter, in front of a firing squad.

ms_lane ,

Cyberpunk Intensifies.

How long until the President is also the sitting CEO of Raytheon or Blackwater?

Johnmannesca ,
@Johnmannesca@lemmy.world avatar

We could just go with the cowboy classic Pinkerton as well

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Nah, they got bought by Securitas.

robocall ,
@robocall@lemmy.world avatar

trump said he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and not lose any votes. this all seems like it’s going according to plan.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Seems like he’s not the only one who can do this now

Mr_Dr_Oink ,

The boys did this last season. Its complete satire but its like holding a mirror to reality at the moment.

Fizz ,
@Fizz@lemmy.nz avatar

How is this different than before?

RecluseRamble ,

They stopped pretending.

prunerye ,

The SCOTUS interpretation is exactly the interpretation I was taught in school back in the 90’s/2000’s.

Scribbd ,

A president could always order an assassination on anyone’s ass. It is now with even less ✨ consequences ✨.

pickman_model ,

Wait, are you saying that they actually faced consequences before?

BudgetBandit ,

So, the President is legally allowed to just kill anyone, but if anyone is resisting, even just saying “if you kill my uncle’s nephew’s father’s roommate and I will seek revenge”, it’s

18 U.S. Code § 1751 - “Presidential and Presidential staff assassination, kidnapping, and assault,” which covers attempts to kill or inflict harm on the President.

18 U.S. Code § 871 - “Threats against the President and successors to the Presidency,” which criminalizes threats to kill or harm the President.

zakobjoa ,
@zakobjoa@lemmy.world avatar

Biden has the chance to do a big, big funny here.

mathemachristian ,

If he relly believes democracy is at stake there is only one course of action left

Bytemeister ,

I used the chistofascist supreme court to destroy the chistofascist supreme court.

riodoro1 ,

He wont even condemn Israel to improve his ratings. At this point it seems that the democrats are trying to get trump elected.

Agent641 ,

What if democracy lost 12 years ago and they just pretended the Dems still existed?

blanketswithsmallpox ,

You mean besides the constantly doing that, the aid, and everything else for nearly 2 years lol?

whitehouse.gov/…/fact-sheet-the-united-states-pal…

aljazeera.com/…/timeline-the-biden-administration…

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Not seeing a condemnation of Israel anywhere in there.

C’mon

riodoro1 ,

He said they need to „tone it down”…

acetanilide ,

Very assertive of him

CheapFrottage ,

Middle of the next debate, right in the forehead. Needs a good walk-off one liner to follow it though, that’s probably the biggest obstacle for him

zakobjoa ,
@zakobjoa@lemmy.world avatar

Knife missile on SCOTUS?

drbluefall ,

Send in the flying slap-chop.

Johnmannesca ,
@Johnmannesca@lemmy.world avatar

You mean the slap-chopper?

todd_bonzalez ,

Just drone strike the debate. No survivors. People want both candidates off the table, give the people what they want.

lowleveldata ,

I have seen this plot before… In a game from Japan where the president beats everyone up in a fucking giant mecha

Duamerthrax ,

To be fair, the VP did organize a coup against him.

Agent641 ,

I need to rewatch that Dunkey video.

djsoren19 ,

Honestly, Michael Wilson was willing to ride on the outside of a rocket into space and put his life on the line to save America from nuclear armageddon. We’d be fucking lucky if we had anyone with that level of conviction and love for their country in charge.

CaptainBasculin ,

The real question is, if you defend yourself with a gun is it considered self defence or just the assasination of the president?

Hupf ,

Yes.

Agent641 ,

Its like in that movie with convicted drug trafficker, Tim Allen, where if you kill Santa Clause you become Santa Claus. If you kill the president, even on accident, you become the president.

Fester ,

Instead of getting fat really fast, you get old.

Gestrid ,

convicted drug trafficker, Tim Allen

Is there some news I missed?

Agent641 ,

The toolman loved his nose-beers:

allthatsinteresting.com/tim-allen-cocaine

dogsoahC ,

That’s an Onion article, right?

Right?

hpucks ,

No

mydude ,

JFK would disagree.

idiomaddict ,

In capitalist America, the president shoots you

Duamerthrax , (edited )

Does this mean the President can murder the SC members they don’t like and replace them?

roguetrick ,

Sure. Even better, if you replace them with ones that will rule this was an error and the president only gets qualified immunity, you’ll still be in the clear because you were acting on what you thought the law was.

xenoclast ,

The better move is actually remove the SC, replace it with a new one that repeals all Republican changes since 1980.

Allow the president immunity until the end of this term, then make it a death penalty offence to basically do anything Trump or his cronies have done.

After all of MAGAs leaders are in jail or in the ground for the treason they committed RETIRE and hold an election again.

Their plan will be put back decades AND it’ll be in the light of day for everyone to see.

We can’t win forever but we can win for a while longer

atrielienz , (edited )

If he went to their homes and strangled them himself? Yes. If he ordered someone to do it? The laws and UCMJ apply to those people so no. There’s this thing people keep forgetting about. The UCMJ isn’t just guidelines. It’s actual rules. And murder is still illegal.

Muehe ,

IANAL, but there is the presidential power to pardon. So the president could in theory give an illegal order (as long as it is an official act they have immunity) and promise a presidential pardon once the order is fulfilled (therefore extending immunity to the perpetrator). Meaning the president can entirely circumvent the UCMJ.

atrielienz ,

And those people would still face state charges because that’s how that works. You can’t get a presidential pardon for state crimes.

ArmokGoB ,

Can you face state charges for murder if you’re already facing federal charges for the same killing (you crossed state lines)? That sounds like double jeopardy to me.

atrielienz ,

Yes. You can face state and federal charges separately. Double jeopardy is when they charge for the same crime twice in the same court (state or federal), after you’ve either been convicted or been acquitted.

Specifically they would have to have new evidence in order to charge you a second time in either federal or state court.

Muehe ,

Ok yeah fair enough, that sounds reasonable. But to my knowledge the UMCJ is a federal law, not a state law, so how does that line of argument factor in there? You cited that as an example of checks and balances that would prevent people from following illegal orders, but it being a federal law still means the president could circumvent it with the official order plus pardon combo, at least if my understanding of this new supreme court ruling is correct.

atrielienz , (edited )

Because (just like in NY with Trump, and specific charges) if a crime is committed within a state the state has the right to prosecute regardless of impeachment or federal charges. The UCMJ is technically federal law. But we’re looking at three different aspects of lawful charges for persons who might commit a crime per the Presidents order. The president could absolutely pardon the persons involved. But only at the federal level. There’s nothing stopping the state or states from prosecuting the same individual. It’s not just one set of checks and balances is my point. The department of justice can also bring charges regardless of UCMJ tribunal (Court Material). Which is really where double jeopardy should kick in but doesn’t for service members.

Additionally and most importantly actually, a court martial conviction for murder would result in a dishonorable discharge from the military. That can’t be overturned by a presidential pardon. They would lose their benefits. Medical and so on. Pensions. It’s a cost benefit analysis at that point. They don’t just get to walk away no harm no foul cause presidential pardon.

Muehe ,

All good points if true. However I will say that to my limited understanding a crime under a specific law having been pardoned, that same law can then not be used to prosecute this crime anymore. Meaning states would have to find a different (preferably state) law under which the same offence is punishable.

And that is all disregarding other issues like packed courts, republican controlled states, the vagueness of double-jeopardy in this regard, and the general chilling effect a presidential pardon would have on prosecutors to even press charges in the first place.

The loss of benefits is easily circumvented by promising a golden parachute along with the pardon, so I could still see a lot of fanatics doing the crime “for country and freedom” or whatever they tell themselves.

Overall this seems like a potentially dangerous erosion of checks and balances that is easily abused when put in the wrong hands. As the dissenting opinions in the ruling openly state.

atrielienz ,

I don’t disagree with that in the grand scheme of things. But a presidential pardon can only be accepted under the understanding that the person who receives it is admitting by accepting it that they committed the crime. As such a service member with a dishonorable discharge would not have their benefits re-instated, for instance.

Muehe ,

Yeah but like I said, if you promise some other form of compensation on the level or above what they lose in benefits, you will still find people willing to follow these illegal orders. Hell you could find people willing to follow illegal orders even before this ruling, but now that the presidents right to give illegal orders is explicitly enshrined in constitutional jurisprudence this pre-existing problem is much worse. I doubt those people will care about a dishonourable discharge, on the contrary it will make them martyrs to “the cause” and they will be worshipped for it. And it remains to be seen how all this would play out in court, I guess it’s quite possible for the defence to argue that if the president has immunity for giving orders, their subordinates have immunity for following those orders.

atrielienz ,

At the point where you are offered some other form of compensation, I believe that would be considered a bribe, which is also illegal.

Muehe ,

That it was offered is nigh impossible to prove if the offer is only made verbally though. And conversely, if they make the offer an “official act” they are immune again.

EvacuateSoul ,

So do it in DC

atrielienz ,

The Criminal Division of the Superior Court of the District of Columbia is responsible for processing all local criminal matters including felony, misdemeanor, District of Columbia code violations and criminal traffic cases.

Duamerthrax ,

If he went to their homes and strangled them himself?

I was actually think of him pulling a Vlad the Impaler and inviting them over for dinner.

The UCMJ isn’t just guidelines. It’s actual rules. And murder is still illegal.

If there’s anything I learned from the Trump years, hell even the Bush II years, is that there are no rules if no one enforces them.

Cryophilia ,

Plenty of people willing to go to jail for 20 years to preserve democracy.

atrielienz ,

If there were someone would have taken a shot at Trump long before now.

ZILtoid1991 ,

Yes, but

Tartas1995 ,

If it is an official act, which would mean they would have to assassinate you in their function of being the president. In other words, they couldn’t just kill their neighbors.

They could probably kill them as part of a celebration, I guess. Jk, I hope.

1rre ,

The president has always been allowed to assassinate you… They’re in charge of the CIA/FBI/NSA/IRS/Other scary 3 letters who assassinate people all the time.

Making presidents immune in official actions is almost required given the sheer number of decisions they have to make and the scrutiny they’re under means they’re sure to break laws sometimes, plus the subjectivity of some laws (eg is making bad decisions and crashing the econony/causing infighting in the military or whatever else treason?) however in unofficial actions they should absolutely not be immune.

Jimbo ,
@Jimbo@yiffit.net avatar

Brb, looking up who the IRS assassinated this year

1rre ,

I wouldn’t if I were you they’re the scariest of the lot

jacksilver ,

I get why you’re getting down voted, but also at the same time Obama did drone strike a US citizen …wikipedia.org/…/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki

SkyezOpen ,

“Trump was a threat to democracy and I took appropriate action”

Literal fascist shit? Yes. Legal? Who knows? By the time they figure it out, biden will be dead from old age.

Holzkohlen ,

Maybe social media was not worth it.

TheRaven ,
@TheRaven@lemmy.ca avatar

Congrats everyone, we got the Purge, but remember this is America where hoarding happens. Everyone doesn’t get one day, one person gets 4 years.

HEXN3T ,
@HEXN3T@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

But remember, if you do drugs, you go to hell and fucking die

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