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Leviathan ,

Flat earthers generally vote for people who are hell-bent on erasing workers’ rights. That’s why I would be arguing.

themeatbridge ,

Yeah, the whole “live and let live” movement has removed the social barriers to being a fucking moron. Ignorant people holding onto stupid beliefs should be made to feel bad by the people around them.

ZILtoid1991 ,

The whole “live and let live” movement normalized far-right talking points in my country, then the “live and let live” movement suddenly disappeared…

MadBob ,

I don’t think one follows from the other though eh?

boatsnhos931 ,

Anon has found the way of the masters

rainynight65 ,

The problem is that flat-earthers aren’t just that. They usually believe in all kinds of other kooky stuff as well, and some of those beliefs pose an active danger to society.

Pegajace ,

Exactly, the same mindset that takes you to “The entire geophysical establishment is wrong/lying about the shape of the Earth, so I’ll listen to this Youtube crank who says it’s a disc instead” will also lead you to things like “The entire medical establishment is wrong/lying about the effectiveness of masks & vaccines, so I’ll listen to this podcast crank hawking horse dewormer instead.”

atomicorange ,

There’s always an implied “them” hiding the conspiracy as well. It’s just a couple of short steps from flat earth to “jews will not replace us”.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

To be fair, the medical establishment did lie about it, but not because of some weird “big mask” or “big pharma” conspiracy, but because they have a tangible impact when used by large groups and overselling them would have better outcomes than underselling them.

It’s a classic problem those in power have to deal with: tell the truth and get an underwhelming response, or oversell and get a better response.

Don’t take horse dewormers though, that’s just dumb.

rainynight65 ,

Overselling something that is true is not the same as flat out lying about the efficacy of a random pharmaceutical. Not even in the same neighbourhood.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

You can surely at least understand the mindset there. Basically, when party A is obviously lying, a party B that calls them out appears more trustworthy, and it’s easier to overlook the obvious flaws in party B’s alternative. Here’s the logic, specific to vaccines:

  1. group A claims vaccines are effective against contracting a given disease
  2. group B points to evidence of actual effectiveness, which vastly falls short of what the public thinks
  3. group B proposes an alternative to the vaccine, implying it’s effective and that group A doesn’t want others to know about it
  4. group A attacks group B’s alternative

This creates an us vs them situation, so if you already distrust group A somewhat, it’s easy to side w/ group B, assuming you have no actual knowledge to parse the available information. The same logic works with anything, you just need a little bit of distrust w/ some authority, evidence of false/misleading statements, and a seemingly credible alternative.

The trick is to not lie/be misleading in the first place so you don’t break the trust. Trust takes years to build and a moment to break, so you need a very good reason to break the trust.

rainynight65 ,

No, I really can’t understand the mindset. Especially not in the face of the constant undermining of trust by certain elements of society, including when they’re in government. We didn’t just arrive here for no reason. The same people who have eroded the trustworthiness of government and authority (on purpose, see Reagan) over decades are the ones who now exploit the results of their actions, for their own gain.

If, in your scenario, group B was on the level, it would be a different story. But they aren’t. If A oversold their claim, B would have massively oversold theirs. And that was easy to prove and has been proven. B also just didn’t oversell their own claim, they also exaggerated the claim that they refuted to something that, in this form, was never said - standard MO.

There is no trick to this. Being factual and getting people to believe you is much harder than telling an easy but good-sounding lie and getting people to believ you.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

If A oversold their claim, B would have massively oversold theirs. And that was easy to prove and has been proven

Right. But if A is supposed to be the trusted authority and B proves they aren’t trustworthy, you’re more likely to not believe criticisms of B because “the establishment” has already been proven untrustworthy. That’s how conspiracies gain traction, and any amount of hiding of information gives fuel to detractors.

So people are going to ignore criticism of B because they’ll feel that B is the “underdog” being attacked by “the establishment.” That’s how these things work.

There is no trick to this. Being factual and getting people to believe you is much harder than telling an easy but good-sounding lie and getting people to believ you.

Sure, but trust is earned. You can’t lie 5% of the time and expect people to believe everything you say, if they find out about that 5%, the other 95% will be called into question. So you need to reserve the lies for when they really count.

Lying will work in the short-term, but it has big consequences in the long-term, so if you’re a long-term entity (e.g. the CDC, FBI, etc), you need to be very careful about how people interpret your message.

rainynight65 ,

So how come people trust Donald Trump? How is it that he can get away with lying whenever he opens his mouth, how is it that people buy it when he pretends he’s the underdog and not part of the establishment? How is it his followers, who are so ready to believe that the government lies to them all the time, don’t call anything of what he says into question?

If we go by what you say then we’re basically fucked. Government and authorities can never regain trust because thanks to people like Trump, thanks to parties like the Republicans, who have spent decades undermining that trust, thanks to the mass media who are highly complicit, we live in a post-truth world, and it’s enough that a government wasn’t 100% truthful that one time, we can never trust them again.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Because they’re convinced he’s fighting against the establishment, so since he’s fighting against people they “know” to be liars, he must therefore be more trustworthy. Add to that the “star power” of being a “successful businessman” and people will think he’s fit for the job. That said, that’s a pretty small, but very vocal subset of his base. A much large subset of his base will vote Republican regardless of who the candidate is, so a candidate just needs a large enough, rebid fanbase to get the nomination and they’ll automatically get ~40% of the vote.

The same exists on the other end of the spectrum (vote blue no matter who). You’ll have a very vocal subset for each popular candidate, and a large group who will vote for their party’s nominee regardless.

Those aren’t the people you need to convince, you should be focusing on those in the middle. There are lots of cohorts, such as:

  • libertarians - anti-war, pro-civil liberties and pro-fiscal responsibility
  • greens - anti-war and wants fixes for climate change
  • single issue voters - abortion, health care, national debt, immigration, etc

Those are the groups that care more about whether a candidate lies on issues they care about than party affiliation. So a candidate needs to be careful about what lies they tell.

bitchkat ,

Don’t need a podcast when the president at the time was telling them to take the horse dewormer.

ashok36 ,

Yup, the root of flat earth conspiracy y theories is that some group is fooling everyone to enrich themselves. If you keep scratching through the layers it’s always jews that are behind it.

It’s just antisemitism cloaked in a ridiculous conspiracy.

Laser ,

Normal day at the NASA factory

ProgrammingSocks ,

Anon wouldn’t have gotten anywhere with that argument anyways. If your goal is to make them stop believing then you have to ask questions without seeming like you’re leading him to a certain conclusion in any way.

Lightor ,

This! I’ve had by far the most success by asking simple questions and having them come to the realization themselves. Forcing your view down their throat never goes anywhere. Their guard goes up and it becomes a matter of pride.

gnutard ,

What are some good points to make them come to the realization themselves?

ToucheGoodSir ,

Eh nah. Pointless debate and argument is kek

Prunebutt , (edited )

At the wage-slave bit, I was hoping that anon would try to raise the coworker’s class-consciousness.

andrew_bidlaw ,
@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

In a sense, they are on the same side.

feedum_sneedson ,

It’s flat, we all are.

Lemminary , (edited )

Weird that the OOP thinks it’s “intellectual superiority” to simply have your facts straight.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

well, it is. I mean, it’s a low bar, but comparatively, yeah.

m4xie ,

Like saying hygienic superiority is not being covered in feces. It is, but that shouldn’t be the contest.

vormadikter ,

I shall remember this comparison and use it at the most inappropriate situation. Thank you.

blanketswithsmallpox ,

1: Why do you always have to be right?

2: You were literally bitching about getting a raise and losing money. That’s not how that works!

1: Anecdote lawyer politicians taxes useless idiot not even a Republican talking point drivel.

2: Stare and say nothing.

1: Implodes a month later by sending out emails to everyone across the company about work being work and gets fired.

2: Goes back to work short staffed.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Uh, what?

blanketswithsmallpox ,

It’s a ‘made up’ conversation with a coworker.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

This is the stupidest shit I’ve ever heard.

daqu ,

More stupid than oceans on the underside of a ball?

Hadriscus ,

😂

Lightor ,

More stupid than the earth being millions of years old? Everything would be old and rotten if that were the case.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

not as stupid as some of your comments elsewhere.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

remember that time you called health insurance “gambling”, which is why you refuse to get any? (or support universal basic health care)

ah, good times.

SatansMaggotyCumFart , (edited )

I’m flattered that you spend so much time thinking about the things I’ve said.

I’m writing a book of my thoughts, I’ll let you know when I’m done.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

given you’re eating crayons at a faster rate than you can learn to write coherently, I’m not going to hold my breath.

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

I like how spicy you’re getting.

It means you care, friend.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5ff8a7c1-ea98-4ff0-9038-039b7900a800.jpeg

shalafi ,

We used to make fun of people like this. Humiliate them. Alas, no more. Everyone’s opinion is now valuable.

Prunebutt ,

It’s not that their opinion is now valuable. We just figured out that Bullying doesn’t work.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

except that it does

Prunebutt ,

Sure, bud.

archon ,

To supress elements in a herd? Sure it does.

Healthy for the individual? Not so much.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

it’s like no bully ever got lunch money from another kid ever, because bullying doesn’t work?

the mafia/mob tried to run protection rackets, but were never successful because bullying doesn’t work.

🙄

jfc you people. 🤦‍♂️

Prunebutt ,

Ok, bullying doesn’t work if you have “good intentions”

Hadriscus ,

Humiliating people does not help them grow, study suggests

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

it’s just as equally effective to break dumb beliefs like this as reasoning is, and both are far more effective than empathy, according to studies.

Oni_eyes ,

I’m going to need a source for those claims.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

GIYF. the paper is out there, published and reviewed. circa 2021, I think.

Oni_eyes ,

You made the claim, you provide the source.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

naw, I’m lying. it doesn’t exist. whatever you want to believe, I don’t fucking care about you.

If you want to look it up, look it up. if you don’t, don’t. I have zero interest in trying to convince retards.

Oni_eyes ,

Mmk and I have no reason to take anything you say seriously. Guess you’re just a lying sack of shit.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

heh, sure, if you say so. 🤷‍♂️ If saying that makes you feel better, I’m happy for you.

The paper still exists, regardless whether you believe in it or not, though.

Oni_eyes ,

Cool, dunno why you can’t link it since you are the one using it.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

I dunno why you can’t link it since you are the one caring so much

Oni_eyes ,

Because that’s the basics of discussion. You use a source, you link it to support your words.

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

but… I don’t want to. I don’t care about you or your opinions enough to bother. 👍

Oni_eyes ,

Cool, then don’t respond?

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

👍

ASeriesOfPoorChoices ,

also, I already said I’m lying. Are you wanting to prove I’m lying about lying?

Socsa ,

No, but it prevents other people from engaging with a topic to begin with

Lightor ,

On the other hand, normalizing and allowing it just enables and validates it.

paddirn ,

I think that’s what the internet has done for us, it’s removed that sort “social immune system” that prevented crazy ideas from spreading. Before, if somebody had some crazy ideas, the most they could usually do was rant to people on the bus/subway, maybe make some pamphlets, or some other small-scale thing to spread the idea. At best you might find someone on AM radio broadcasting at weird hours. Individuals would get exposed to it, but would likely never pass it on, this contained crazy ideas and they rarely got traction to spread.

Now the internet comes along, and suddenly crazies are getting hooked up with impressionable people easier than ever before. Crazy ideas have an almost endless supply of rubes that will eat them right up. Our social immune system can’t protect society from all the insane things flying around at high speeds all over the place now. It’s intellectual chaos.

nonfuinoncuro ,

I mean the social immune system also prevented ideas like worker solidarity, gender equality, socioeconomic mobility, sexual freedom, etc. from spreading but I get your point. Opening Pandora’s box let the crazies out as well as the AOC/Bernie and free Palestine crowds.

OsaErisXero ,

The problem being, at least for the moment, the crazy is winning

Quacksalber ,

On the one hand, yeah. Worrying about stuff that you have barely any control over won’t get you far. But on the other hand, that guy’s vote counts as much as yours. And if he already believes such silly conspiracy theories as the flat earth theory, he will be easily swayed by whoever is the loudest contrarian.

rockSlayer ,

the challenge isn’t to let him enjoy life with his stupid ass conspiracy, it’s to get him to realize for himself that he’s been duped by both strangers on the internet and Conservative conspiracies. Deradicalizing and then radicalizing is hard as fuck

Psionicsickness ,

This guy’s vote counts as much as yours. I.E. next to nothing.

Oni_eyes ,

Depends on where you live. California, Texas? Yeah close to nothing in comparison with someone from Wisconsin. For some reason that I keep getting told isn’t political favoritism.

Lightor ,

Yah, it’s not so much what he believes, but that he displays a lack of critical thinking skills or even common sense. That’s just how it came to the surface.

Drewelite ,

Right and that should be the target of our efforts. Not fighting over scientific research they’ve already decided to reject. Encourage them to think more critically. You can only encourage someone when you have their ear. You only have someone’s ear when they’re comfortable around you. Demeaning someone’s intelligence and telling them their world view is a toxic lie, is a quick way to convince them they’ll only ever be at odds with you.

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