It’s the people that changed. It used to be common sense. There were places parents knew that you just didn’t bring kids. But now, parents are taught to be entitled. They demand to bring kids everywhere.
It's more likely to swing back the other way, in my experience. Entitled parents use their children as a weapon in public, but the attention often stops in private, when the parents want "me time" and still have a burdensome kid to take care of. The kid grows meek and people-pleasing to earn the parent's positive attention and grows emotionally stunted because "crying makes mom and dad mad, emotions are shameful."
It's still an absolute mess of course, but once a parent who shouldn't be a parent reaches a certain level of entitlement, the damage done causes things other than more entitlement.
As a parent I don't understand that need to bring the kids everywhere. I don't want my own kids running around while I'm trying to enjoy "adult" activities let alone any one else's.
I’d suggest that a minor contribution to this would also be stagnating wages; inflation; and increased cost of childcare. Now the ‘adult’ activities we want to enjoy are more expensive; we’re earning less money (in real terms); and childcare is more expensive, leading to a lot of people on the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum to be faced with the choice of ‘take your kids or don’t go at all’.
I definitely agree with you though. Western societies have been becoming more individualistic and entitled and that’s likely the biggest cause. I just don’t think it’s the only cause. As with everything in life, the reasons why something happens are usually varied and can rarely be boiled down to one thing.
Individual selfishness is responsible for… People having children, raising them, and bringing them places?
Am I insane or does that just on its face not make any sense?
Your first paragraph is the actual reason here. It’s too expensive for a lot of parents to get a babysitter, so they need to bring their kids with them if they want to go do something. And for many people like me who work from home (I don’t have kids yet but the point stands) that one night every week or so that we go out to dinner is basically the only time I go to do anything fun outside the house that isn’t working out. When I worked in an office (which I ever want to do again) I’d go out to lunch with coworkers and occasionally do a happy hour after work, but that isn’t an option anymore.
If I had kids we’d be bringing them with us when we go out because it would be significantly cheaper than hiring a sitter for a few hours.
Individual selfishness is responsible for… People having children, raising them, and bringing them places?
Am I insane or does that just on its face not make any sense?
It has always been cheaper to bring a kid with you to something to hire a sitter.
Previous generations seem to have understood that having kids means you don’t get to do all the things you want to do all the time. Or, doing so will cost however much a sitter cost.
But, as an example, I was in a comically expensive restaurant not too long ago to celebrate a friend graduating law school. (Appies are 30+, entrees range in the 50s and it would be gauche to only get an entrees.) But, even in a lovely place some parents decided to bring their screaming child much to everyone else’s delight. The cost of a sitter would’ve been less than either of their meals, their wine or a fraction of what his suit cost. But they decided to keep that money and inflict their child on the rest of us. To me, that’s selfish.
My mom knows that I absolutely do not want kids. Like, the idea of being a parent makes me feel physically ill. She is still hoping that she’ll get grandchildren. Last time she told me she’s still hopeful that I’ll change my mind, I got rude and told her to fuck off with that shit. I told her that she needs to keep that kind of thing to herself and that telling me that repeatedly feels very disrespectful.
That was about 6 months ago. She hasn’t brought it up since. This branch of the family tree ends with me and that’s totally fine imo. Everything has to end eventually. My mom’s in total denial about that fact.
I get you. I also hate kids running around. I understand they’re kids and they don’t know better, but their moms don’t even care. That’s the problem because the kids never learn to respect other people’s space.
And if you say ANYTHING, even politely, the mother gets offended. I was once on a plane trip where I desperately needed to get sleep before driving home from the airport, and I was next to a mother who gave her son a very noisy toy. He kept banging it against the seat constantly, and I said please. I said "Could you please play quietly?" and she gets mad at me. "He's only 6."
Eventually the kid caught on that I had a terrible headache and quieted down, but his mother didn't even say a word to him to ask him. I told him "Thank you for playing quietly" afterwards and ignored her.
This happened to me in the USA. I told the doctor I want to be sterilized and neither my husband nor I wanted kids.
He told me it would be unethical. My husband might die and then my new husband would want children. I told him I would not change my mind, and such a man would be incompatible for marriage with me. He told me I’d change my mind. So basically, yes some hypothetical future man would want to use me for a baby factory, that’s why I can’t be sterilized.
I was 30. I’m older now, still don’t want them. I’m too ashamed to ask again for sterilization. My husband has a vasectomy scheduled soon (weird how a doctor had no problem doing that for him. Wonder what the difference is???)
I think the doctor thinks of your husband as a baby factory manager and as he wants the baby factory out of operation it is his choice. Now if he died a new manager could start up the factory again. I know this is extremely fucked up and there is no reason you should not be able to get sterilised but it is a fucked up world we live in.
Easier said than done, anyway. I was just shocked he said that. I’m sure if I wanted his statement in writing he would have written something like “I don’t recommend this for women who have not yet had children because there are plenty of other effective treatments like [etc]” and nobody would care.
Someone at my work was told something similar by a different doctor (in a different state!) that he wouldn’t sterilize her because she wasn’t married. She had 3 children already in her mid twenties.
Pushing back on this stuff is a battle that shouldn’t have to take place on the personal level. We’re going backwards in women’s healthcare in America, too.
Indeed. Your friends will hopefully have family or other friends who can be on sitter duty. What’s important is you don’t disappear just because they’ve got kids.
Stick the kids birthdays in your calendar. Set reminders. Get the kids gifts. Be that uncle.
Across my family and friend group, I’m an uncle to 10 kids and I’m all of their favourite as I’m the cool uncle (it’s amazing what Lego can do for favour).
And with that, I still see my friends all the time. We don’t get blackout drunk but I see that as an age thing rather than because they’ve got kids. And because the kids know me, my partner and I are invited over to everyone’s places regularly; kids are in bed by 7 and then we get to hang for the evening.
Additionally, if you want to be the best friend you can, when a friend has just had a kid, pop over with some cooked meals (some ready and some for the freezer), being disposable cutlery and plates, and some empty trash bags, and feed your friends. Bundle the trash into the bags and take it with you. You have no idea how much a meal and no waking up after will mean to two very tired friends.
I do it every time. I aim for around a week of meals if I can (chili, curry, soup, all freezes well and easy to make loads of).
There will be a day when the kids are self sufficient and your friends will be wanting to be far more social again but if you can’t be a friend in the mean time, they won’t be knocking on your door afterwards.
Being child free is a personal choice. It’s also a choice to support those who want to have children. In my opinion, it’s the best of all worlds. I have my friends, I have no kids, but I also have a positive impact on my friends’ kids’ lives (coding, maths, science, music). It’s pretty nice.
One of those kids bought my partner and I massive German beer glasses (my partner is German) and we drink out of them daily. Kid used their own pocket money too. It’s a nice feeling knowing my world and friend group continues to grow as I age, rather than shrink.
Thanks for sharing your experience. It seems you have found a sweet spot that works well for your life, and you sound like a good friend. I get the impression that you enjoy a kid’s company far more than I do, though. I generally get exhausted around them and the stressful lives their parents lead, and I don’t actually want to be a part of this. Which is a me-problem, I know. I fully agree with you when you say that they will probably not be knocking on my door when they are ready to be social again, but it sounds like a very one-sided effort to maintain a friendship in the meantime. My friends mostly move out of the city back to where they grew up as well, so just popping over with a meal is not always possible. I have myself moved elsewhere for work now, partly because the number of friends still staying in the city I lived in before had greatly diminished.
I used to go on mountain hikes with my best friend from my childhood once a year (we’ve already lived in different cities for a long time, so we haven’t really been hanging out for many years), but he’s awaiting twins anytime now, so it’s going to be at least some years before it will be possible for him to even consider spending any vacation days on such a trip. I used to have yearly cabin trips with friends from university until they got all got kids approximately at the same time (during COVID). They now go on kid-friendly family vacations together. I used to frequent restaurants with a fellow foodie. We sometimes still do, but it’s gone from maybe once a month to once every two years. It is these kinds of relationships that I miss.
Everyone has a different feeling towards kids and you’re in no way required or in the wrong to not be interested in being around them. And you’re right, it can be one sided, but I have noticed the friends I made an effort with have been far more social (especially once the kids are two or so) than those I didn’t make an effort with.
It might be worth going out of your way and looking for friends who are child-free, and if you can’t find the place or space, maybe be the one to make it.
I’ve friends in my town who are child-free through choice and I have friends nearby who are child-free due to being unable to conceive and not wanting to adopt. I’ve also plenty of LGBTQ+ friends who the vast majority are also child-free and want to stay that way. They’re out there. But it might mean you need to come to terms with letting your oldest friendships fade while you seek out new ones.
It could be as easy as going out and doing the things you enjoying and finding people your age there (or prehaps a little older since if they’re child-free and doing those things, or have kids but still do them, that’ll gel better with you).
Really appreciate the honest and open discussion with you in this thread. I hope you’re able to find your people and to live the life you want for yourself and your partner.
I have a friend who has one kid and another on the way. At this point for traveling. He worked out a deal with his wife that he can travel on a big trip once a year until the kids get older. Before he had kids we would typically go on large backpacking trips multiple times a year.
I’ve noticed so far that it’s mainly scheduling. If you can get something written into their calendar. Then the kids don’t need to come along. Depending on the parents of course. In my experience if I can talk to my friend and sit down and pick a date and get onto the calendar. Then he can typically go on more smaller trips. Allowing him and his wife to plan for grandparents to come and support while he’s gone.
But if the parents aren’t into that. There’s nothing you can really do.
Right, nothing I said should be taken as gospel. In my opinion it’s just what naturally happens with good friends. There’s no way around it. The kids end up getting to know you. I have zero clue as to what you’re so offended about. I honestly doubt you have any friends anyway and are just arguing to be arguing.
I have zero clue as to what you’re so offended about.
People like you, actually.
So childfree people should mark in their calendars the crotch goblins’ birthdays and buy presents for them? Become “uncles”? That kind of commitment to children is what we’re avoiding, for crying out loud.
And, despite your ill will, my friends are many, and most of them are childfree or have grown children, and our shared activities are, excluding very rare occasions, devoid of infants.
That uncle role is not something I am looking for, though. I am after adult relationships, and it is the loss of these I am saddened about. For the record, I do not blame neither the parents or especially their kids for this change. They do not owe me a continued adult relationship for our entire lives. It is completely up to them to pursue this life, and as I said, I am happy for them as long as this is what they really wanted, and I agree that their kids should be their priorities once they have had them. But so far, in my experience, the kind of relationship becomes completely different. For instance, my girlfriend and I were invited over for dinner to one of my close friends from my twenties, his wife and their two kids. After we left, we were both left with a feeling that we hadn’t talked with them at all - we were interrupted constantly by their kids seeking their parents attention. Some parents handle this better - I know others who are better at setting boundaries for their kids and teaching them to not interrupt and wait for their turn, but the interactions with them are still very different - their lives almost entirely revolves around their kids. I was once involuntarily part of a conversation regarding the color and viscosity of kid’s shit.
When I reread my original post, I realize it could be interpreted like I want to somehow get things back to how they were before. I know they won’t be, and it’s not what I meant. I was simply after real stories (i.e. not imagined solutions) of how people in a similar situation, having experienced a similar loss of close friendships, ended up with either new, great friends with a similar outlook on life or anything else that improved that part of their life.
I’m sorry to tell you, the real solutions to keeping friends after they have kids are what you’ve said you don’t want. So, for you, it looks like you’ve already decided you don’t want to be friends with people who have kids. That leaves you with a much smaller pool of people and in an age bracket where it’s much more difficult to meet people.
Maybe try finding hobbies that don’t have kids in them.
Well yeah for someone who literally hates kids and wants to cut off their friends because of it. It wasn’t a suggestion. It was what another good friend would naturally do/become to another good friend. It doesn’t come with anything that you need to do. There’s no responsibilities. You’d just be around so often that’s how the kids would begin to look at you.
Some cultures use uncle/aunt pretty freely for any older family friend who was around a lot. I remember my mom was “auntie” to lots of kids when I was younger but there was no obligation or anything its just a term of endearment to a close older woman.
I don’t like kids, I have a few friends with kids, some of them really like me, if it were up to me I’d prefer if the kids they didn’t even know I exist.
That said, I value my friendships with their parents. Having a good relationship ship with their kids means my friends get to stay in my life. If I don’t have a decent relationship their kids, that limits how much I can see with my friends, and if I’m particularly rude, antagonistic, etc. toward them they may choose to cut me out of their lives entirely. It’s a matter of whether you like your friends more than you dislike kids.
If your dislike of kids outweighs how much you value your friendship, I think that can be a valid position to have, but it should probably also raise some questions about whether you value your relationship with your friends enough for it to be worth continuing, and/or whether you have some unresolved issues with kids that you may need to address.
If I never had to see my friends’ kids again, that wouldn’t bother me one bit. If I didn’t get to see my friends for years, that would bother me, and for now at least, my friends and their kids are going to be a package deal, so in my case it’s an easy cost/benefit analysis. I value my friends more than I dislike their kids, so I’ll tolerate their little crotch-goblins.
I specifically object to the “becoming an uncle” part. This includes special attention, gifts, considerations well beyond what I’m willing to give even to my own non-immediate family. Visiting my friends and acknowledging, even interacting with the kids superficially, that’s more than OK. But they are not my family and they’ll never be.
How they view you and how you view them are not necessarily symetrical. Some of my friends’ kids definitely view me in sort of a familial way, like a favorite uncle, I don’t return that sentiment, but it doesn’t make their view of me any less valid. I’m not giving them any gifts or any more attention than is strictly necessary.
Many of us do view our close friends as a sort of family, I’m much closer to a lot of my friends than I am to some of my family members, it wouldn’t be wrong to say I think of some of them as sort of extra siblings and favorite cousins. I also have relatives I don’t particularly like and try to avoid, but still have to play nice with at family functions, and the kids kind of fall into that category. They’re sort of like the racist uncle, the spoiled cousin, the bitchy new fiance, or the drugged-out family fuck-up. They’re part of the package deal with the rest of the family, but if they just vanished one day I wouldn’t be too broken up about it.
You mentioned in another comment having lots of uncles. Your family never gets together? No holidays, weddings, funerals, birthday parties, family reunions, etc?
If that’s the case, I don’t really see your opposition to being an uncle, it apparently comes with no added obligations in your family.
You mentioned in another comment having lots of uncles. Your family never gets together? No holidays, weddings, funerals, birthday parties, family reunions, etc?
Very rarely, and it doesn’t involve any obligation. My mother’s side of the family is in another country, and I’m not close with my father’s side. Besides, nobody is entitled to my time by default.
If that’s the case, I don’t really see your opposition to being an uncle
Words have meaning. Implying a relationship of any kind with kids when I despise them is insulting.
I think this makes sense. Firstly, respect your friends have children. Then, decide how to interact with them now that its what is happening.
If you want a regular, often relationship, having the ability to talk with the whole household on some level just seems sensible. They live there too; the kids are a person even if not a fully experienced one. Being an Uncle or an Aunt can be fun, or just be civil and honest. Ask stuff, field questions and above all don’t be a dick.
The alternative is just to catch your friends when they’re free. This might be rare or very occasional. That sucks but its their right to raise a family. The kids are dependant on your friends and your friends need to make sure they’re OK. It requires patience and understanding. Possibly a little ingenuity.
In my experience, many parents will enjoy some time away from their kids every so often. If they want it, they’ll find a way. And older kids will enjoy sometime where their parents aren’t hovering over them. Either a weekly event or occasional times out might be possible to be carved out.
From my own Mother’s words: your entire world shifts to revolve around your kids when they arrive. I would say you’d need to understand that and act appropriately.
My dad best friend and his wife are child free. When my dad started having kids they continue to see each other regularly but instead of going out to restaurants or bars the friend was “inviting my parents for dinner, in their own home”.
So he would come home with food, prepare dinner for us. It was a great way of doing it.
They do if the principles maintain an environment your customers can tolerate, thus keeping your customer base intact instead of seeing them go somewhere that doesn't have kids running around everywhere.
This is the first answer in the whole chain that has made sense to me. Regardless of what type of parenting philosophy people subscribe to, businesses are going to do what makes money. It doesn’t matter what everyone thinks is right or wishes would happen.
Table top RPGS, board games, poker/card game groups, baking, cycling, volunteering at an org you feel strongly about, trail building to add to the list. As mad as I am at Reddit this would be the perfect thing to scour your local subreddit for groups for.
The other night, my SO and I went out for dinner at a nearby place and there was literally a group of kids running laps through the tables while the parents just looked on.
No way am I saying don’t get your kids out for dinner but atleast enforce basic courtesy applicable in public spaces!!
That’s where you take them to Applebee’s, somewhere where I’d expect kids to be running around. They shouldn’t, but I expect it. Fine dining no way should they be in that position
I always thought of it like this. If the main purpose of the establishment is alcohol, children shouldn’t be allowed. So bars, breweries, etc. If a restaurant also happens to have a full bar, with bar tables (different than the regular restaurant tables) then kids should be allowed in the restaurant part only.
I know no one upholds anything like that, since I see kids all over breweries and bars in restaurants but it would be nice.
Personally, I’d pay extra for a completely child free eatery though.
I’d even settle for just “not demonized for not allowing children”. We have had some breweries here that have attempted to and parents just screech about how they’re not “family friendly”. Yes, that’s the point, it’s not a family friendly place. It’s a place for adults to come and drink, what is so bad about some of them choosing to be adult only?
Yeah, people seem to have forgotten that parenthood is a sacrifice. I’m in no way saying people who have children shouldn’t be allowed in public, but there is a time and place for kids. Personally, I wouldn’t want my kids around a bunch of drunk people, if I were a parent.
Exactly, I get you have kids and you have a hard time finding sitters and everything, but parents chose to have kids. It’s not some great secret that parenthood takes up time and means sacrificing these things, that’s why I’m choosing not to. I don’t view those as excuses personally, if you are a parent then you need to find someone to watch your kids if you want a night out, that’s the trade off. Not change everywhere you want to go into a “family friendly” place, or you know, go to a family friendly place.
But then they have to deal with other people’s kids. Yuck. Who wants that?!?!? Yes, I’ve heard parents say that, when in a not kid appropriate place, with their kids.
I mean, most people are going to raise kids at some point in their life.
I entirely get people who don't have kids around wanting to have establishments with "no kids" rules. That's great, nothing wrong with having an establishment that caters to them. But I also think that people who have kids should have options that cater to them as well, should be some establishments in the industry that do the same for them.
Right, like almost every other barber shop in the country. This was one barber shop out of dozens around me that are all labeled as “family friendly”, but this is still the one they chose to come to.
I hear this argument a lot but the fact is that most places are family friendly, but when a restaurant wants to be explicitly adult only it makes national news.
I’m can usually have 2-3 drinks and be fine… but if I get caught up with friends and go over that, yeah I sleep like absolute shit. I won’t even be hung over (I drink a ton of water, hydrate while consuming alcohol!!) but I still sleep awful.
As a parent anytime my daughter acted up one of us would take her outside. She would lose her audience and no one wants to hear that. We only had to do that a few tines before just saying “if you keep this up I’m going to take you out side” would put an end to the fit…now that being said my daughter was generally a very easy child to raise and I know that is not always the case.
My dad did this with me. I started wailing in church and he took me out to the car in summer with a window cracked. Eventually I had enough, stopped, and said “I’m hot”. I’ll never forget his wise words:
Yeah well I’m hot too but it’s your fault we’re out here.
Our neighbors do the same, especially on weekend mornings while the rest of the neighborhood is still asleep. Outside isn’t necessarily a location where you’re not bothering anyone.
The problem is, everything literally will revolve around their kids. Want to get together and watch the game? Sorry, all day cocomelon party on tv now. Want to sit around a fire and chat? Sorry, too dangerous for the kids. Just want to sit and chill? Sorry, the kids will be running through the house screaming. Want to hit the new, trendy restaurant? Sorry, we need a place with chicken nuggets on the kids menu. Want to just have a conversation? Sorry, the only thing they can talk about is their kids now. Want to just get together? Sorry, I’ll have to hind time between the playdates/dance/gymnastics/sports/whatever the kids have scheduled.
Sure, maybe that isn’t always the case, but it often is.
This hasn’t been my experience with friends with kids. They’re mostly babies and toddlers right now but I mean a kid can be supervised around a camp fire. And most kids are in bed at like 830 and then you can hang for a few hours of adult time. It seems to me that they get enough of their kids and are happy to talk about grown up shit for a while when I see them. And any of my friends who like sports have got their kids watching sports with them since they were tiny. Those kids know the hockey game is staying on.
Its a bit harder to hang out but honestly I find I see them as much as my child free friends. Its just hard to find mutual time off in general now that we all have jobs and live apart and shit.
It’ll be easier for them to get baby sitters when the kids are a bit more selfreliant when they’re a bit older too. But you do have to get some child free friends too, like not too many of my friends with kids are going to be hitting up too many music festivals with me for a while I reckon.
This hasn’t been my experience with friends with kids.
Perhaps it is not everyone’s experience, but it is a common experience.
And most kids are in bed at like 830 and then you can hang for a few hours of adult time.
No. I hit the bed not long after. I go to work early and try to be in bed by 10. I am not waiting up all night just because that is the only adult time you can find.
Wow! Interesting. Also makes sense in the context of fostering the evolutionary adapted benefit of the mother forming an ‘in group’ bond with her baby.
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