Its definitely an apartheid state. Unlike South Africa the ruling ethnicity is the majority. They've been at war with the minority since it's inception since that meant physically displacing people who didn't want to leave. I don't believe peace was ever an option Israel honestly considered.
While there surely is reason to criticize Israel on many levels I don’t understand what people like you expect what Israel or any other state would do if there was a group (Hamas, which is designated as terrorist by many Democratic countries) raiding it’s territory and kills and kidnaps a number of it’s citizen.
just to put in relation 1.400/10.000.000 Israelis would equal 46.000 USA citizen (333.000.000 inhabitants). when applying this scale this would be much worse than 9/11.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
Anyway, the whole middle east is fucked up and I wish that they could finally all live in peace and ditch their religious fanaticism so the few can not exploit the religious for their fascist cause whether it be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.
Being reasonable and understanding things are complicated and nuanced isn’t going to happen on Lemmy.
The nutters here are going to sit on a Hamas propaganda source like Al Jazeera, knee-jerk to every article designed to drum up hatred and dumb down the situation, and go hop in bed with every anti-semite masquerading as the left that they can find. All the while pretending this conflict exists in a vacuum and lately even blaming the deaths on the 7th on Israel in their comments.
I appreciate your attempt to bring rationality and reason to the discussion, but you’re wasting your time on this shithole.
Israel doesn’t exist just because of or for Zionists. Or do you propose everyone who was born there but happens to not be a Palestinian should leave the country?
No, I advocate for them to demand a single Democratic state with Democratic rights for everyone, regardless of ethnicity. Since, you know, they’ve intentionally done everything possible to kill a two state solution.
Otherwise, they promote an apartheid vision for the region.
Also, it does exist solely because of Zionists. Where do you think it came from?
It exists to be a unsinkable US aircraft carrier parked at the crossroads of Asia, Africa and Europe. It’s an ethnostate where non-jews are disenfranchised and nonwhite Jews are sterilized.
Jews, Christians and Muslims coexisted in Palestine long before the European colony arrived.
Israel lost 0.014% of its population to the Hamas attack. Gaza has lost about 0.52% of its population to Israel’s rampage and that over 40% of those deaths are children. How is that comparable at all?
Here’s one, sorta, that doesn’t include where they checked a Palestinian employees family bit, but it’s the middle of the night and I’m trying to go back to sleep. I’ll find it in the morning.
I appreciate your attempt to bring rationality and reason to the discussion, but you’re wasting your time on this shithole.
yeah, I realized this half way through typing but wanted to finish this anyway.
And yeah, asking for independent verification the way you did absolutely implies denial. I should have realized that from your instance that you’re from a country that literally defines anti-Zionism as antisemitism.
Wow. Now the instance I am coming is the point of debate. Honestly, you are not interested in any honest discussion after all. I don’t have any political agenda with me like you obviously do.
All I do is wish for war and terrorism to end and this needs democratic processes and independent press after all. This is my point.
It also doesn’t help that Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians either. For example when they shoot rockets and place the rocket launcher next to a hospital or school, they know it’s going to be hit by Israel at some point.
I get the reasons for both parties, but fighting isn’t going to resolve this, they have both tried for wat too long. Divide the country and get all the other nations to recognize both countries is the only thing that could work (I believe).
What do I expect them to do? Not ‘mow the grass’ every couple of years. Not use soldiers to protect murderers as the ‘settlers’, sorry, thieves go in and steal more of west bank. Somewhere that has no hamas, by the by.
What do I expect them to do? Not commit genocide. That’s what I expect.
I also expect them not to be a white supremacist apartheid ethno state, but I know that one isn’t possible, just as I know that it isn’t possible to not expect them to be terrorists or commit the Nakba, or to socialize with the Irgun.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is literally justification.
Maybe try not justifying the murder of over 10,000 civilians if you don’t want toxicity.
So in other words if this killing helps rooting out Hamas then it is all justified. Because obviously the next generation of Palestinians will be thankful that their siblings, parents, grandparents where rooted out of their homes or slaughtered in the name of anti-terrorism action as collateral damage. Surely nobody growing up without prospects and has to deal with such hardships will wabt any revenge or justice for their sufferings. Surely this will not radicalize the middle east any further. In fact they should be grateful that they are honored to die in the name of Israëls justice.
I don’t want to justify, all I am looking for is a discussion. I could not provide a solution either and I do not support war. All I am saying is that I don’t know what to expect from a country to do.
I do not excuse killing of civilians or even genocide and personally think that Israel should take more care about civilians which is even in alignment with the statement of Mr. Blinken. Also they may rightfully be criticized in relation to blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza.
All I do say is that unbased information is hard to come by at this stage as the information sphere from inside Gaza is mostly controlled by Hamas. Israel surely is no unbiased source of news either, but international press has more access there. Again I do not neglect nor justify killing civilians and especially children. But still it should be distinguished between actual genocide which includes intentionally deporting and killing civilians and collateral damage, both of which are to condemn, as are the actions of Hamas relating to raiding and terrorizing Israel civilians and taking them hostage. This is no way of deescalation obviously either.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is you justifying it.
Let me guess: you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
No, I do not justify bombing civilian infrastructure. I do try to explain why civilian casualties are too high. While Hamas should not use civilians as human shields, Israel should not bomb them non the less and disregard civilian casualties. It’s both wrong.
you’re a member of the Alternative for Germany party?
Hahaha never. Now fuck off with them Nazis.
Edit: To be clear and give my final statement. I am not politically active and do not have an agenda. I am not member of any political party, but I do actively vote and politically debate with friends. Currently i would consider myself mostly in line with the green party while having a negative view on both extremist left and right boundaries but I also dislike the major parties curruption riddled SPD (esp. Scholz), CDU and inhumane corporate and lobby party FDP. AfD and the other Nazi parties are the worst obviously.
Again, I think Israel should rightfully be criticized for many things, but clearing out Hamas makes sense when viewed as it’s own topic. And looking at the number of high civilian casualties in Gaza they are being criticized even by the USA, you still have to consider that Hamas are hiding in civilian infrastructure on purpose to use them as human shields. Also while the numbers of casualties in Gaza are being reported from inside Gaza you would not know how many of them are actually part of Hamas. They won’t give you this information.
This is you ‘both-siding’ genocide.
There is one proper response to genocide. Unconditional condemnation without qualifying. Anything else is standing idlely by.
Criticism while also saying ‘but Hamas did this’ is not unconditional condemnation.
Let me ask you this: do you think there is any behavior that can justify genocide?
You can take issue with the numbers and be as conspiratorial about them as you like, but that goalpost movement doesn’t do anything to support your point.
Your unwillingness to label the killing of thousands of children in either regard shows an apologism and an intellectual dishonesty that doesn’t bely any useful contribution to the discussion.
Faux impartiality and centrism is the kind of toxic behaviour that lets these atrocities go unchecked.
Huh? I don’t have a strong opinion on any of this and do not deny. I would prefer independent investigations on this by parties not involved in this conflict (or war or potential genocide whatever you want to call this).
More than half of the population, about 52%, were under the age of 18, making them children.
Indiscriminate bombing, which Israel is doing, will cause about half of those fatalities to be children.
Asking for independent journalistic verification in a war zone where Israel won’t let independent journalists in is the equivalent of denying. You know there is no verification meeting your impossible standards.
But what exactly would that be? Keep in mind that there is no doubt on that Hamas is a heavily armed terrorist organization.
So what should Israel have answered to hundreds of it’s citizen bring taken hostage? Again I do not say that Israel is not to be criticized for decisions and especially actions in the past where they have deported Palestinians. Even if this is the root cause of the rise of the terrorist group. This is not point of the current debate.
What differentiates Hamas from the Israel government that causes you to describe it as a terrorist organization and the Israel government as not?
The definition is killing civilians to cause political change.
Israel, by many governmental officials descriptions, is trying to cause maximum damage to Gaza in retaliation, including the deaths of a civilian population. Most of whom, notably were too young to vote for Hamas.
Israel has repeatedly bombed hospitals run by MSF, schools, and ambulances. They always claim Hamas was there, and yet, the MSF doctors state they weren’t. The schools weren’t likely housing Hamas, and when journalists check the ambulances, find no weapons or military uniforms.
Let me ask you this: what could Israel do that you wouldn’t think is justified?
Please, answer that. I’d be willing to bet I could find an example. And if there is nothing, then I know you’re an extremist that is okay with genocide.
Jesus Christ, really? Bombing a Hospital is NEVER a good idea and in multiple comments I do explicitly state that Israel IS to be criticized, which, you know, is the opposite of justifying. Again I do not justify them bombing hospitals and killing civilians, I said they should definitely take more action to prevent civilian casualties. I’ve seen the Videos where Palestinians are being harassed by Israelis which is to condemn. And AGAIN, I do not deny that this could be the root cause of the rise of Hamas. But this also does not justify killing Israeli civilians either (or many other civilians with international citizenship).
It’s all fucked up and I can barely make up an opinion about all this. And AGAIN, my point is simply to take EVERY piece of information with a grain of salt, but the thing is that Israel has information advantage right now as international press has more access and security on their side atm. This does not mean that press is 100% free there either as it was just very recently reported that German Journalists were still held up or even harassed by IDF Soldiers. But how can I atm know if this was a nervous soldier in fear of his security or a decision made from the top government? I genuinely do not know.
However, any discussion about this is a tightrope walk after all. I won’t bother any longer.
The Palestinians tried a peaceful protest in the march of return two years ago.
The IDF slaughtered them, intentionally targeting medics.
Bibi used coded language in a speech in Hebrew calling the Palestinians amaleks. God ordered the Jewish tribe, in the old testament, to slaughter the amaleks man, woman, child, and beast of burden.
CNN was allowed a journalist to embed with the IDF, but only if the IDF was allowed full editorial control. FULL control.
At this point, you not knowing this is likely you ‘just trying to ask questions’ in a bad faith effort to justify genocide, which you obliquely admit to in another comment. Israel is still not allowing food or water in.
I think it’s fair to criticize Israeli tactics and overall strategy, but most of the blanket condemnation you see on Lemmy is indicative of pure moral confusion and/or an unfamiliarity with historical and contemporary facts. That the outrage is so selective --it’s never applied to other similar and even unprovoked civilian massacres-- tells us everything we need to know about how well-thought-out it is.
Anyone who speaks against Israel in this “fight”: Cancelled. And it’s gotten so you don’t even need to say the magic word: “antisemite”.
God forgive me, but maybe the “Jews rule the world” nuts weren’t so wrong after all.
Banking, Hollywood, Ivy League schools, major journalists and news outlets, my own President, all of them pro-Israel no matter what.
Show me I’m wrong, stop me, take my beer away, come over to my house and punch me in the face, but get me off this conspiracy train. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen the fruitcakes come so close to truth.
Maybe, just maybe it’s an alignment of ideology and geopolitical interests across the ruling class rather than genetics.
Maybe Jews were pushed into usury, maybe they’re over-represented in certain spaces like Ivy League schools because they’re wealthier on average, which buys a better education and more opportunities, perpetuating that wealth and success.
Pretty much anything the Nazis blame on Jewish genetics can easily be boiled down to class intetests without the weird blood libel conspiracism and insistence everyone they don’t like is a Jew.
Of course it’s political! Of course it’s not genetic! FFS, I’m not retarded.
How about “Israelites” are running shit in a shadowy conspiracy? That tastes almost as foul in my mouth. But I can sure see where the nuts are coming from.
And see where you’re going with this? Anti-Nazi and racism talk. I’m neither a Nazi nor a racist, and you can check every post I’ve ever made, here or on reddit (/u/shalafi71). Every single one. Go back 11-years on reddit if you like.
But see how the conversation went that way when I started talking about Israel and Jews? And to be clear; I do NOT wish to conflate the two. But it’s easy to see how many (most?) folks do?
Jews were pushed into usury, maybe they’re over-represented in certain spaces like Ivy League schools because they’re wealthier on average, which buys a better education and more opportunities, perpetuating that wealth and success
Any anyone joining this discussion, read that over and over again, because it’s true and that’s how it worked out. We decry this sort of thing, uh, usually, but it’s OK because the Jews have been the underdogs for 2,000+ years? Maybe? I’ve always been a cheerleader for Jews and Israel. I really don’t know what to think anymore.
To get back on point, here’s what I’m seeing, when my eyeballs can get past the in-your-face genocide:
Got any sort of influence in the 1st world? Spoken against Israel lately? Still got a job? Yes, yes, no.
Anything in that last sentence strike anyone false?
Sorry but that’s bullshit. There are plenty of people who speak out against Israel (for example in Germany, of all places) who still hold their job. So there. Your anti-semitic theory of Jews from Israel secretly shadow controlling all governemnts is refuted.
Btw, when your theory is correct how come the media doesn’t cover the bombing of Israel by Gaza and Lebanon? Most people don’t even know it’s happening.
When your theory is true, how come that UN can be biased against Israel and no one is doing anything about it? The UN found that 40 % of all Human rights violations since 2006 (!) have supposedly taken place in Israel. With competitors like China, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan that raised quite a few eyebrows but no one has done anything about it.
Also, simply to bring in some statistics, there are 16.1 million Jews worldwide. And 9.37 million Israelis. No one cares for this tiny minority unless they are battling extinction again.
What is more likely is that A you wish there was an easy answer, like one side has to be the bad one.
And B you are falling hard for propaganda. Propaganda is one of the only weapons groups like Hamas have in their arsenal. And it’s not just Hamas who have an interest in Israel being gone. Add every other Islamic state into that mix.
Also, simply to bring in some statistics, there are 16.1 million Jews worldwide. And 9.37 million Israelis. No one cares for this tiny minority unless they are battling extinction again.
Germans please stop projecting your guilt for attempting to colonize and exterminate your way across Asia onto the people resisting a colonizing force.
That’s because you ignore everything that has happened in Palestine unless it’s connected to Israel.
It has nothing to do with “Jews controlling the world” or other conspiracy theories. It’s that when you are living in a “western” culture you are more aligned with the culture of Israel (women’s rights, rights for LGBTQ people, at least the hope for democracy, protection of citizens instead of using them as propaganda tools, etc.).
That is why many western politicians and media rather reluctantly call out Israel on it’s war crimes.
Imagine when what many seem to wish comes true and Israel is abolished. The whole area becomes Palestine. Then we will have another country where people suffer under a religious zealot leadership. No rights for women or LGBTQ, no schools that educate their children to become free thinkers, no democracy or working for a better future, etc.
“Blowback” is a CIA term first used in March 1954 in a now declassified report on the 1953 operation to overthrow the government of Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran. It is a metaphor for the unintended consequences of the US government’s international activities that have been kept secret from the U.S. public.[30]
One example of blowback is the CIA’s financing and support for the Mujahideen to fight an anti-Communist proxy guerrilla war against the USSR in Afghanistan. The Mujahideen would later become Al Qaeda which would commit the September 11, 2001 attacks.
Due to the CIA’s function as an anti-communist organization, it typically relies on right-wing groups to achieve its policy goals, either by latching on to and supporting pre-existing anti-communist groups and leaders or helping to create them. This leads to the spread of fascism, terrorism, and increased instability in regions where the CIA has used their influence, even after the CIA has ceased actively using them to achieve specific goals.
I laughed way too hard at this. But seriously most antiquities need to be returned to their places of origin. It’s 2023 how is this still a conversation to be had?
The problem is that you have governments like the Taliban in Afghanistan, pre-9/11, destroying ancient statues, trying to erase the history they don’t agree with.
Instead of returning stolen antiquities, countries that are currently in possession of them should be required to send an equivalent value of their own country’s treasure to be displayed in the victim country’s museums.
Imagine having to go to Egypt to see the crown jewels of England.
I absolutely agree that there are some locations that are too volatile/corrupt to have items returned. I never would have thought to have equivalent items sent out of county for display, that would really drive the emotional point home.
Some artifacts were acquired legitimately either as gifts or through purchase. So have no reason to be returned.
Some states are too unstable or corrupt to be able to return them, such as Syria or Egypt. And there was a case recently where France returned some artifical to an afircsn state just for the president (? King?) To keep them for himself.
Some artifacts don’t have an easy place to return them too. Like take the kohinoor diamond, do you give it back to the Indian government? The Pakistani government? The Afgan government? The decendents of of the Maharaja that signed over possession to the Queen, or the descendents of the people he stole it from? Or the people that person stole it from? And so on and so on. And at this point it’s more historically important to the UK than it is to any other country.
Which brings me to the next point, some artifacts are important because of their history after being taken. The Rosetta stone is a perfect example of this. When it was discovered by the French it was rubble being used to construct a crude wall. If the French didn’t recognise it might br important it would have been lost to history. And if it wasn’t translated by a French archaeologist after the British took it, then it would still be insignificant, as the are other identical stele in Egypt and its actual cobtents are pretty mundane and unimportant. Literally the only thing that makes the rosetta stone significant is its history AFTER it was taken from Egypt.
And finally some cases the artifacts are only their because that country got invaded. Like a lot of roman artifacts in the British museum were brought by invading Romans. I don’t think anyone sensible thinks they should be returned to Italy right?
Absolutely, and all the people that now have the artifacts benefit in keeping the status quo, so there is effectively little push to solve a very complex problem.
You make a very well reasoned point, and I don’t disagree with you. I can see why museum curators won’t release antiquities because in your examples establishing provenance and actual logistics would be a nightmare. Not to mention the precedent of giving away some country’s items but not others. But, at this point in time it’s also a point of contention, rightfully so, that items obtained are still viewed as the property of the British museum in what amounts to a trophy case of imperialism. Ultimately we are in a period of growing pains as society and this is just another awkward period we have to get through to move forward.
Someone gave me a piece of bread once, and I thought they were giving me cake. I had this reaction for sure, but once I realized it was bread, it was really testy bread.
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