Please just vote this buffoon out. I beg of you as a European. Please vote him out and make him irrelevant in every way possible. Just stop this madness.
Member when he basically told hillary to fuck off and shut up because she lost and we shouldn’t have to hear from her anymore? Member when his supporters said they’d have backed off and accepted it if he lost?
God I wish this asshat followed his own advice, but a grifting amoral asshole will always do the grifting amoral asshole thing and cultists gotta cultist…
I’m so sick of living here, but I have no marketable skills to offer other countries…
Yes, but I meant next year. Because it’s like I’m in 2016 again. Everybody thinks Hillary is going to win and NO WAY anyone would vote for this loser. But with Biden this time.
And the thing of it is is that this is exactly accurate. The man could die from anything and there would be a small but not insignificant crowd of people prepared to make him a martyr, claiming it was some “deep state” assassination
Weird hypothetical: what if he dies, but he’s still getting votes? My guess is that there’s a decent portion of his supporters that would vote for his corpse, maybe assuming it’s some conspiracy and that he’ll rise from the dead. I mean he wouldn’t be able to take the oath of office, but would congress have to invoke the 25th amendment if a dead person wins the election?
I’m sure he’d still get votes after dying, but not enough to actually be elected. If he died while the election was going on and won, I think the vice president would become president, just as if he’d died in office.
Translation: “The legal system isn’t sufficiently stacked in my favour anymore like all the previous hearings were, so somebody move to illegal means of nudging the results while I hide behind plausible deniability in saying that I did not mean that at all.”
It’s actually better. He didn’t write the comment, he just re-shared it, boosting the visibility. This is his typical MO. “Lots of people are saying the thing. I didn’t say the thing.” Until the judges tell him flat out to stop using his social media accounts or they’ll throw him in jail, he’s going to keep doing this shit.
“I wasn’t calling for violence when one of my supporters did violence to these people. I said citizen arrest. They misinterpreted when they thought I wanted violence. The knock-on effect of chilling any future prosecutions also isn’t what I wanted.”
While Trump deserves our ire and some jail time, I’m more concerned with what his popularity says about our society.
He’s a gift in some ways: he’s shown the true colors of our neighbors to us. If he makes it to the oval office again, so much would have to have gone wrong in the belt-and-suspenders approach being used right now.
I trust that there’s an end game to disqualifying him because that’s the only way we can buy time while figuring out how to address the ugly xenophobic truth about the future in the US.
I STRONGLY recommend reading Susan Faludi’s “stiffed” if you want a play book on where we’re headed (spoiler: it’s the 90s again, but worse because one of the lost boys could be POTUS again)
I really don’t know why everyone discounts the propaganda so much. I’ve been a broken record on this lately because, yes, we have assholes in vast numbers, but we also have a massive propaganda problem that is essentially creating a reality that doesn’t actually exist.
That’s not to say there aren’t hundreds of thousands of people who are just straight up racist hateful assholes, but a very large portion of the people who vote for Trump think they’re actually picking a good person… It’s infuriating, the criminal isn’t a criminal and ol Biden who the right has been attacking forever is somehow actually a criminal that no one can catch…
Tolerance is a social contract, not an ideal. If someone refuses to adhere to the contract, then they are not entitled to the benefits of it either. Hence, there is no paradox. When we say “be tolerant to all” what we mean is “please adhere to the social contract, and assume everyone else does so, until proven otherwise”.
The paradox still exists. You described a system that is intolerant of the intolerant. That system is therefore not tolerant. The paradox is that no system can be completely tolerant… Because intolerance would have to be tolerated, which would make the system intolerant.
Your response would be like saying the boot strap paradox doesn’t exist because I haven’t invented time travel. But, I still need to fuck my grandma or else I never will! Wait…
It’s not a paradox to say “I will be tolerant of anyone who is also tolerant.” Whether that’s a good foundation for society to be built upon is subjective I suppose, but it’s not a paradox.
The paradox only exists in a society that claims to be completely tolerant. The society you’re talking about doesn’t claim to be completely tolerant, but it doesn’t solve the paradox of a completely tolerant society. It, in fact, proves the paradox as the intolerant have taken over the system and are not tolerant of all.
I’m making no judgment on the societal system. I also dislike the intolerant. And… people who want to do back in time to have sex with their grandmother!
Yes, but I and the person you originally replied to weren’t talking about an idealized society that tolerates everything and everyone. The paradox only exists when you take the idea to its extreme. It’s very easy to define a system where people are tolerant, and replying with “b-b-but that’s not truly tolerant” doesn’t help anyone here and only serves to muddy the waters.
The comment I responded to responded to this comment.
I really wish more people understood the paradox of tolerance.
Seemed like I could defend the paradox in a response that ignored the existence of the paradox when the OP was wishing more people could understand it. But sure, i muddied the waters.
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society’s practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
Someone needs to explain to me why that’s an absolute/assured (the italicized part).
That seems like one hell of an assumption, and not a foregone conclusion.
Assume that the tolerant party extends tolerance to the intolerant party. The goal of the intolerant is directly in opposition that of the tolerant, and the tolerant must then tolerate (i.e., not impede) this aim.
The only direction such a conflict can move in is toward the will of the intolerant party, because any push in an opposing direction would require an exercise of intolerance from the tolerant party (or an adoption of tolerance by the intolerant party).
It can’t stay in a steady state, unless the intolerant actually accept/tolerate that state.
Why, because you say so? I completely disagree with this, and America’s proof of this.
We’ve always had intolerance in this country, but it’s never taken over, the tolerant allows them their moment to speak, but when a decision has to be make on what direction to move in, it’s always done in the direction away from intolerance.
There is no way to move back toward tolerance without a force opposing intolerance,
True, and that force is the majority disagreeing with the ideals and ideas of the intolerant, and not joining / following them.
and that can’t exist if tolerance extends to the intolerant.
Again, America is proof that you’re incorrect on this.
You need to understand something,.
Our adversaries will want us to not talk to each other, to be at each other’s throats, and trying to shape this kind of narrative of intolerance is one way of getting to that goal, and must be pushed back against at all costs.
I don’t think I disagree with what you are saying, but America’s history has not followed the premise of this paradox. That is, America does not unilaterally extend tolerance to the intolerant. Abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, these things were not resolved by “live and let live.”
Americans tend to allow intolerance to some critical point, which then turns into conflict and usually violence until things simmer down to an acceptable level of intolerance once more.
Legislation does skew progressive, as you point out. That’s another example of society not tolerating the intolerant. And the real-world solution to this paradox: tolerance need not extend to the intolerant. But to explain the paradox in terms of the article you linked, you must start from a different premise.
but America’s history has not followed the premise of this paradox. That is, America does not unilaterally extend tolerance to the intolerant. Abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, these things were not resolved by “live and let live.”
The Civil War was caused by people being intolerant of each other’s ideas. If the South had actually listened to the North, and stopped slavery, then that war would not have happened.
Plus the concept we’re discussing is about free speech, if physical harm or violence is done then that’s a different matter, and what was done to slaves is definitely something worth fighting for, to save them from that fate.
But Slavery was a boiling point from the founding of the country, where they argued about including that or not in the Bill of Rights, and on forward to the Cival War times.
The Civil Rights Movement was resolved mostly through nonviolent protesting, and the intolerant lost because the tolerant were allowed to speak. If the government had branded the Civil Rights people as being intolerant ( again, who decides who’s being intolerant) would we have our civil rights today? I don’t think so.
And the real-world solution to this paradox: tolerance need not extend to the intolerant.
Yes, it does, or else everyone becomes intolerant of everyone else, no one speaks to no one, and violence begets violence.
100% of people will not agree on what’s intolerant, and those who wish to silence others will use the “you’re intolerant” excuse as a weapon against them, so it must not be allowed to happen.
America’s worked fine so far on tolerance. It’s one of the founding bedrocks of our nation, and society.
As a citizen you have a responsibility to listen to your fellow citizens, even if you don’t agree with what they’re saying. Feel free to tell them back in no uncertain terms why they’re wrong, but don’t try to silence them, and their ideas won’t gain traction, and they will not gain followers.
The center will not hold, if we’re trying to silence each other.
That’s what people on here take as facts. A paradox on Wikipedia. Get the fuck out of here. No one needs to read that uslesss garbage. Who defines what is or isn’t tolerate? “Nope, your being intolerant of (insert crazy fucking shit) off the the gulags with ya. These people are as bad as their far right counter parts and can’t even see it. Dripping with the same hate that they feel for the “enemy “
Wikipedia lists 17 different references from the last 70 years on this topic. It is not a new concept. It is also literally evident in a variety of places that have tried the absolute free speech approach, such as 4chan.
Your entire comment is either disingenuous or asinine.
It is also literally evident in a variety of places that have tried the absolute free speech approach, such as 4chan.
4chan is not America. Free Speech seems to work fine in America, we’re still here.
And it isn’t about absolute free speech, it’s about giving everyone a turn at the microphone. You can definitely disagree with what someone’s saying, but you should never stop them from trying to say it.
It’s true the same way that the boxer with one hand tied behind his back will lose a fight. All other things being equal, the side that limits itself will always lose because they deny themselves paths to victory the opposition can use.
No, no they should not. Nazi speech should be criminalized. Just like yelling Fire! in a crowded theatre. Nazi speech is even more deadly and destructive.
Yeah, they say the same things about pro-trans speech.
The problem is, when you start policing speech, you open up the floodgates for people to pick and choose what is right or wrong to say. If it’s okay to ban ‘nazi speech,’ then what’s stopping the next congress from banning ‘trans speech’ or ‘communist speech’?
Nah. It’s up to us, as a society, to work together to keep these ideas at bay through discussion. If we try to ban people from sharing these ideas altogether, it will create a Streisand Effect and give them more power than they would otherwise have.
Unfortunately reality doesn’t work this way. A popular lie beats an unpopular truth. That’s a large part of why we can’t make any meaningful progress on addressing climate change.
I think a lot of them do see it, but he pisses off the libs and seems to be promising to hurt the people they want to be hurt, so they are OK with that.
Are we just going to forget about the family separation border policies? Or the “it’s ok if grandma dies as long as we can go back to Outback Steakhouse again” treatment of COVID?
Also it wasn’t Hitler himself that architected the Holocaust. Him being in power gave power to even worse people. He was happy to go along with it, it just doesn’t look like he had any specific plans to actually exterminate the Jews when he was rising to power. So don’t think that Trump’s lack of any specific agenda means that such a thing won’t happen if he is in a position to enable it.
For a way too large group, his being unhinged bigoted rants are a selling point, not a liability.
For way too many others, they don’t care about his unhinged rants because he’s pledging to hurt OTHER people, not them.
The former are bad, but aren’t enough to sweep Trump into power. The latter, though, could help Trump attain power and then will act shocked when they get targeted.
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