That’s a very funny anecdote about Apple that I can find no evidence of ever actually happening. Leaving aside the fact that Xerox had GUI, including the modern WIMP GUI we’re all familiar with today, in 1974. The Apple Lisa was released at least a year before the Macintosh 128K came out in 1984. As much as I love the idea of Apple making such an amateur mistake, I’m going to need a reputable source before I believe that story actually happened.
Edit: I’m seeing a lot of “it’s technically possible” but still no sources to confirm that it actually occurred. Until a a verifiable source emerges, I’m still going to assume this story never actually happened. Anyone have Woz’s contact info? We could always just ask him.
I’ve read most of folklore.org and do not recall any such story. In fact, how do you even “drag the computer to the waste basket” as the first/only icon would be the System floppy and afaik they’ve never had / still don’t have a “computer icon”. 🤔
You honestly couldn’t pay me enough to use MacOS so I didn’t know there wasn’t a “computer icon” but I love that detail. I’m gonna go ahead and assume that whole anecdote is fictitious.
I’m an IT person professionally, and I use Fedora as my daily driver.
Ah, Fedora, that brings back memories. We used to call it RootHat back in the day when it was still RedHat. It was what all the first-time Linux users used before they graduated to Debian or Slackware. They would use root as they day to day account, hence the name.
Havent used it in forever. Is it still as big a pile of shit as it was in the 90’s ?
I’ve been using it since Fedora Core 7 back in like 05 or something. It’s pretty solid. I use mate rather than gnome, but otherwise it’s an excellent, very FOSS, choice.
I wonder if the first attempt was simply dragging that Mac System Software to the trash. Not “the computer icon”, but it’s possible the anecdote was/is slightly misremembered by John
Seems like a simple folley, the person I responded to said it was a floppy (it’s two layers of “mesh”?) and couldn’t remember the computer icons. Details get fuzzy, I had no idea and was curious so I just looked it up. I’ve got no horse here.
The point of the trash was that nothing happened until you emptied it. And the OS was loaded into memory so you could eject the OS disk so it wasn’t actively using those files. I don’t think even dragging System to the trash and emptying it would have done anything except prevent you from booting with that System disk.
I’ve seen multiple new users drag Macintosh HD or Documents to Trash in literally the first minute of using a computer. It was perhaps the most common first action I witnessed. Fortunately, none of them located the “Empty Trash” command before I stepped in.
It never crashed the system, but this was in the 90s when we were already on System 7 or even OS 8, so I’m not sure how the older versions handled it. Dragging a disk icon to the Trash on the classic Mac OS ejected the disk, so I wouldn’t be surprised. Simply dragging the System Folder shouldn’t cause an instant crash, but it would fail to boot if you restarted for sure. So the story could be mostly accurate but just missing a step.
Speaking from experience, it functionally ruined them, at least the early macs -exact os/model unknown- we had (school computers well behind the curve and all). They’d need to be reformatted after. It would delete, then iirc just crash and you’d reboot into errors (my memory of this is spotty, it was a very long time ago)
I used to do that in the computer lab when I was supposed to be doing typing practice. Fucking hate typing “properly”.
Note: I am not a verifiable source, this is anecdata.
The original Macintosh had the OS on a floppy disk. So there wasn’t a “Computer” on the desktop. And if you dragged the Macintosh OS disk to the trash it would just eject it so you could put in another disk. (Unless you were lucky enough to have an external floppy drive.)
Both political extremes are as bad as the other. The only sensible course is to allow our political and corporate systems to destroy our environment unchecked while a tiny elite of billionaires funnel up all the remaining wealth of our societies.
Honest question, not trying to start an argument or anything, but what is extreme left when we’re talking about the current political landscape actually? Cause when I look at US politics I don’t see anything close to what I’d consider extreme going on on the left side. Maybe individual people with no significant political power talking about overthrowing the whole capitalist system but yeah, they don’t seem to have any actual political power.
Since we’ve spent the past 60 years talking about how horrific communism and extreme left is, even fighting multiple wars over it, we don’t really have a presence of far leftism.
I feel like it’s cyclical at this point. We hate the far left so much that people become fascist. A fascist dictator rises. Everyone realizes how this was a bad idea, and we equalize. Generations forget, and we progressively move right again til another fascist dictator comes in.
So no, there is no political power in America with true far left views, and our boomer gov would do anything to keep it that way.
This makes a lot of sense to me, the US has a good long history of being anti-communist so anything moving close to that has been villanized to the point that any kind of socialist idea faces push back and true leftist views go under-represented. It does feel like the overall movement in the US has been to the right though, but that could be my own recency bias.
The original anti-vax movement was always weird to me, the issue screams “muh freedums” so I always found it strange that it came from the left. I guess it goes into the same box as all the hippy dippy wellness stuff, which does have some things like meditation that turn out to have real benefits, but there are just some people who take to all that really strongly without evidence.
Anti-intellectualism I always considered a right leaning thing, like, you always hear republicans saying universities are tools of left-wing indoctrination and not the other way around? But I suppose hippies had that “don’t trust the man” thing going on.
Are hippies how people’s idea of the far left formed? My understanding is the whole hippy movement, while memorable, was quite short lived?
I think both extremes may have different reasons but the same outcome.
For the anti intellectualism on the left, it stems from real issues like the Henrietta Lacks and relation with race, and generally more that is talked about with critical race theory. Fwiw it is all important to address, but there is a strong contingent that generalizes it too far and will distrust all of medicine, science, education, and academic research.
I also know a lot of far left people who would refuse to vote for Bernie because he was white male
I also know a lot of far left people who would refuse to vote for Bernie because he was white male
Do you actually know a lot of people in real life who think like this? Or is it just particularly loud groups of them on social media?
I am a member of socialist organization and am acquainted with a lot of people on the far left(anarchists, communists, socialists, etc.), and I’ve never heard this sentiment. I’ve heard other complaints about him not being leftist enough, but nothing about his race.
I do know some, maybe it’s because I live in a university town. I think you were interested in today’s far left, and those are the ones I’ve been frustrated with.
To a lesser amount, I also know one or two people who identify as communist. The best quote from them was, maybe if trump were to be president, then we would finally collapse the global economy so then every one would start over.
It does stem from a feeling that the current system is too broken to fix. They are valid feelings and I can only presume our lack of progress is because the Republicans have always had so much power paired with general concept that change is a slow process. But these people are tired of waiting and hoping for drastic change.
How did it come from the left? The “vaccines cause autism” wasn’t connected to any political side as far as I’m aware. Just because you’re a hippie doesn’t mean you’re left-wing, or politically conscious at all even.
I might be wrong but I always associated hippies with left-leaning, liberal politics. And I’m not sure where the association between the left and the anti-vax movement came from but I know it was a thing that was frequently made fun of. I even remember catching a Simpson’s episode where they went somewhere and commented on how progressive/liberal it was (forget the specific word), then Marge asked a random woman if she vaccinated her kids and she responded “of course” then Marge said “and not TOO liberal”.
Now that I think about it, maybe the political association of the original anti-vax movement was manufactured?
I feel like we’re all already moved on from this discussion, but I JUST came across mention of the original anti-vax movement and hippies on “Some More News” (aka Cody’s Showdy), felt it was interesting to run into a day after this discussion: youtu.be/nrsysN_LBoo?si=rqEEZCGLQ8wH2GNV&t=2781 (comes up at 46:21 in case the time stamp doesn’t work).
The far left would be people like tankies, where they go so extreme they end up parroting a lot of the same rhetoric you see on the far right, just through a different lens. I’ve literally interacted with people on this site who believe North Korea is secretly a utopia that the West is trying to hide with propaganda.
They don’t really have much in the way of significant political representation in this country. The far right unfortunately does.
I’d consider commies, anarchists, and anti capitalists in general to just be leftists, not far leftists. It’s not really my thing but I can at least respect it.
So communism so hard it swings back around into fascism, yeah, I suppose that would be “far-left”. This may be my own limited experience talking though but I don’t think that’s a popular world view? Especially not in the US from what I can tell. I know there’s a lot of talk of “tankies” on Lemmy (still not 100% sure I understand what a tanky is), but I have yet to actually have a conversation with a legitimate one IRL or online. Far-right extremists on the other hand you can run into multiple times a day, so I know which side I have more concerns about.
The USA skews fairly right overall so you don’t really see a lot of them here. It’s a lot easier to find them in other countries.
I’ve definitely ran into a few people IRL who have gone far enough down the rabbit hole that I’ve heard them trot out the classic stuff about how “Stalin/Mao/Fidel/etc. was good actually”
They’re analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don’t go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
In the USA, we have an environment where it’s far easier and more beneficial to those in power to co-opt people into right wing extremism than left wing extremism, hence the outsized representation. You can definitely find countries where the opposite is true, it’s a fairly big issue in south american and southeast asian nations. What’s interesting to me is that the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state where there is a powerful insular ingroup that can exploit the masses to their benefit.
They’re analogous to the far right is the main thing. Anarchism/communism/etc. is the gateway to such views. Most lefists don’t go that far (good) but some do. Same thing with the far right, they start off as libertarian, ancap, or run of the mill conservatives etc. and end up going into cuckoo land after they watch too much cable news and facebook conspiracies.
i don’t think there is a reputable source to substantiate this.
I don’t know of any particular sources but I do have anecdotes of watching friends and family fall into these traps on both ends of the spectrum. A couple of my leftist friends have started treading dangerously close to some pretty sour viewpoints. I mostly see it as pro-accelerationism, everything I don’t like is capitalism/neoliberalism/western values, and are totally blind to the influence propaganda has on them and the weak points in their own ideologies.
On the right, I’ve watched several of my family members go down the fox news alt right rabbit hole and end up at similarly dumb viewpoints. They also want a revolution, except everything they don’t like is liberals/communism/woke etc. They are also totally blind to the influence of propaganda and the weak points in their ideologies. The media machine in the US is set up to make this pipeline far more efficient than the leftist version.
They mostly don’t like the same things, but they’re pulling in opposite directions, and each is convinced that when the revolution comes, their side is the one that will win out, when in reality, we’ll probably just end up with the same shit, different coat of paint.
Me? I think there’s concepts we can borrow from many ideologies that can help us solve specific problems and bring about incremental change until we reach true propserity. The socialists and commies get some stuff right, so do the libertarians, the anarchists, the ancaps, etc. The only thing I think will definitely not help is tearing it all down. There is no silver bullet, it’s all just problems that are met with ever improving solutions. Sometimes we take two steps forward one step back, but I don’t think anyone can deny that the world at large is better off now than when it was almost completely ruled by monarchy, bloody violence, and slavery a few hundred years back.
Exactly this. I’ve been calling them the “burn it down” group. It’s not a fun ideology… sure they don’t have a lot of power today, but that’s how these things work. If they have power it’s too late. It’s worth knowing that this is a growing movement with real people. They are my cousins, coworkers and a few of my friends lol. Not just a social media rhetoric or scare tactic.
the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state
first, a bit of snark: there is a cure for political illiteracy.
then, a rebuttal: communism is a stateless classless moneyless society. there is no such thing as a communist state. for many anarchists, this is indistinguishable from anarchism.
The far lefists aren’t commies though, that’s my point. They play like they are, but really they’re just authoritarian fascists. Commies are just regular leftists, and marxist schools of thought are a totally reasonable worldview to carry even if I don’t agree with some points of it.
if you’re not building a classless stateless society, you’re not a leftist. I’d be just as offended about being called a liberal as being called a tankie. statism is bad.
Statelessness is the end goal of communism, yes. I have met so-called communists that think strongarm authoritarianism is the way to get there, and for some reason believe that those authoritarians would willingly give up their power once they’ve achieved a position where they could implement said stateless society. This is basically what happened in the USSR and China, and is decidedly not the path Marx himself proposed for achieving it. A stateless communist society in Marxist thought is simply the natural progression after late stage capitalist societies, which is not a step you can simply skip over.
I don’t necessarily agree with the idea, but I think it’s important to be educated on a wide variety of schools of political thought.
What’s interesting to me is that the end goals are nearly the same, which is to implement an authoritarian state where there is a powerful insular ingroup that can exploit the masses to their benefit.
Unlike centrist liberals, who want to create a non hierarchical, stateless society with no exploitation or in groups…
Nowhere did I claim such a thing. Some leftist groups want the whole stateless thing. Go even further left into crazy land though and you run into strongarm authoritarianism.
I’d call myself a liberal in the modern sense, I certainly don’t believe that large scale stateless societies are viable but there are definitely things we can learn from ideologies further to the left than what I subscribe to.
Authoritarianism is by definition illiberal and anyone who is authoritarian or supports authoritarianism is not liberal no matter what they claim to be. Centrism is also a meme, anyone who claims to be a centrist is usually just a stan for authoritarians in disguise.
The core tenant of liberalism is respect for the autonomy and civil liberties of the individual and consent of the governed to the rules of the government through the machinations of democracy. Any system claiming to be liberal without subscribing to that is a farce.
The same could be said of the “far left”. They claim to be leftists, and they might have started out as such, but they have stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.
Authoritarianism is by definition illiberal and anyone who is authoritarian or supports authoritarianism is not liberal no matter what they claim to be. Centrism is also a meme, anyone who claims to be a centrist is usually just a stan for authoritarians in disguise.
Ok, but now you’re just fiddling with semantics so that your thesis is tautologically true. Sure, if you redefine your terms in a circular way so that authoritarianism means iliberalism and iliberalism means authoritarianism, then obviously its true, but it’s not very meaningful. It also doesn’t really make sense in regards to your original argument that the extremes of left and right are authoritarian, because, by your definition of liberal there is not now and never as been a liberal society. The USA incarcerates a volume of people that dwarfs any of the called ‘authoritarian’ nations, comparable to the Soviet Gulag system at the height of the purges. It also summarily executes people for minor crimes all the time. It frequently overthrows governments and engages in mass killings, including currently committing a genocide. Beyond that, it unilaterally deprives its people of access to the Earths commons using unilateral and lethal force, as well as hording vast quantities of stolen wealth from its rightful owners and using that wealth to oppress them. Other ‘liberal’ countries may not go to the same level, but they all do the same things. They have all been authoritarian and thus not liberal, which would make liberalism an extremist left wing ideology.
The core tenant of liberalism is respect for the autonomy and civil liberties of the individual and consent of the governed to the rules of the government through the machinations of democracy.
That’s all the tenants of leftism, including the ‘extreme’ leftism you call ‘crazy land’. You’re also leaving out the important caveats: autonomy as defined by liberals (So not, for example, autonomy to freely roam the earth and make use of its commons without interruption), civil liberties as defined by liberals (so not, for example, the liberty to make use of the means of production as you like), and consent of the governed as defined by liberals (so not, for example, the ability to ignore the degrees of government that you do not consent to).
The same could be said of the “far left”. They claim to be leftists, and they might have started out as such, but they have stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.
Are you willing to apply this standard to ‘moderate’ liberals; are you willing to extend it to yourself? Will you declare anyone who shows even critical support for existing failed attempts at liberalism (which is all of them, by your definition), as having “stepped out into crazy land and end up supporting things antithetical to the ideologies they claim to subscribe to.”? Do you condemn people who support George Washington the same way as you do people who support Lenin? Do you condemn people who support Lincoln the same way as you do people who support Castro? Do you condemn people who support Churchill the same as people who support Pol Pot? Do you condemn the French Revolution and the American Revolution the same as the Russian and Chinese?
Because if not, I can only conclude that it’s not ‘authoritarianism’ that you consider “crazy land”; it’s just political heterodoxy in general.
This entire discussion is about semantics, so I see no issue with getting fiddly with it. As for authoritarianism being illiberal, I don’t see how that is tautological. Authoritarianism is when the government or ruler has absolute control and has no obligation to accept input from the populace over which they rule. This violates the consent aspect of liberalism. These are commonly accepted definitions, not stuff I just made up. They’re mutually exclusive concepts and absolute versions of either cannot coexist.
And yes, I do think there has never been a truly liberal society, just as there has never been a truly communist society or any other -ist or -ism based society. They are concepts we can strive for, but adhering perfectly to the academic definition of any of these concepts is not realistic. I think the USA is fundemantally illiberal in many regards, and we would do well to strive to correct those aspects.
As for the definitions of those specific aspects of liberalism, yes, of course it is those aspects defined under the framework of liberalism. It would just take thousands of words to provide the entire context and it’s not super important here. You seem to understand that these words have different definitions in different frameworks, and I’m sure anyone discussing political ideology in this level of depth is also aware of that.
When I’m talking about the extremist sides of the spectrum, far left and far right, I am referring to those who tread into territory where their ideology becomes ostensibly dangerous. The most common version of this is directly supporting things like oppressive authoritarian rulers and population cleansing, There are absolutely people on both the left and the right who would see those as acceptable means to their end of implementing their preferred ideology. Right wingers who want to ethnically cleanse populations they see as problematic or inferior are no better than the far leftists who want to guillotine whoever they decide is the bougouise. This is the crazy land I’m talking about. Not being in crazy land means trying your best to not support awful shit, making sure you are picking the least bad feasible options in your current situation, and revising your positions and who you support when evidence indicates that the bad outweighs the good.
And yes, I actually do have a lot of issues with the French and American revolutions, and I do not think Churchill was a particularly good guy. I don’t think they are the same as the Russian and Chinese revolutions. They all resulted in regimes of varying levels of “bad”, but the Chinese and Russian versions resulted in higher death tolls and much more unhealthy systems coming out the other side (in my subjective opinion).
I think to cover the rest of your points, there are degrees here and the real world doesn’t function in absolutes as I mentioned in the second paragraph. I don’t have time to respond to every comparison you mentioned, but Washington vs Lenin for example: Washington did not have secret police killing dissidents by the thousands. Lenin did. Washington did not implement policy that resulted in mass famines resulting in the deaths of millions, Lenin did. Washington did support slavery and ethnic cleansing of Native American populations, and it irritates me greatly that this gets glossed over. Lenin did not. Which one of those guys is worse depends on your subjective values, but for me, I’d say Lenin is the worse guy.
I’m tired and it’s almost 3am so hopefully all that makes sense.
This entire discussion is about semantics, so I see no issue with getting fiddly with it.
My point is you are redefining words as you go, which is pointless.
for authoritarianism being illiberal, I don’t see how that is tautological
Because you have defined it tautologically.
Authoritarianism is when the government or ruler has absolute control and has no obligation to accept input from the populace over which they rule
Which doesn’t apply to any of these ‘far left extremist’ projects you’re talking about.
And yes, I do think there has never been a truly liberal society, just as there has never been a truly communist society or any other -ist or -ism based society. They are concepts we can strive for, but adhering perfectly to the academic definition of any of these concepts is not realistic. I think the USA is fundemantally illiberal in many regards, and we would do well to strive to correct those aspects.
Then how can you say you are anything but a leftwing extremist yourself?
As for the definitions of those specific aspects of liberalism, yes, of course it is those aspects defined under the framework of liberalism. It would just take thousands of words to provide the entire context and it’s not super important here.
It’s extremely important; it’s essentially you saying “It’s not authoritarianism when we do it!”
When I’m talking about the extremist sides of the spectrum, far left and far right, I am referring to those who tread into territory where their ideology becomes ostensibly dangerous. The most common version of this is directly supporting things like oppressive authoritarian rulers and population cleansing, There are absolutely people on both the left and the right who would see those as acceptable means to their end of implementing their preferred ideology. Right wingers who want to ethnically cleanse populations they see as problematic or inferior are no better than the far leftists who want to guillotine whoever they decide is the bourgeois.
And this is the crux of my point; you say this like the center of the spectrum, and liberals, aren’t dangerous; aren’t perfectly happy to support authoritarian rulers and populations cleansing, who see genocidal violence acceptable means to their ends of maintaining their preferred ideology. In fact, in our current world, the overwhelming majority of violence and suffering is caused by moderates and liberals. You need to examine your blind spot here, and stop acting like the moderate position is somehow pacifism.
And yes, I actually do have a lot of issues with the French and American revolutions, and I do not think Churchill was a particularly good guy.
So no, you don’t hold liberals to the same standard you hold leftists, you instead hold a massive, systematic double standard.
I don’t think they are the same as the Russian and Chinese revolutions.
And there it is, right here, the deep seated double standard. Like I said; you don’t hate authoritarianism, you hate political heterodoxy.
but the Chinese and Russian versions resulted in higher death tolls and much more unhealthy systems coming out the other side (in my subjective opinion).
Death tolls are not subject to “subjective opinions”; you’re just wrong
Which one of those guys is worse depends on your subjective values, but for me, I’d say Lenin is the worse guy.
And that says a fuckload about how fucking evil your subjective values are.
See, this is why I loath liberals, in some ways more than fascists; at least fascists are open about their evil. You don’t actually hold principles you apply consistently, you don’t actually believe in all that shit about autonomy and liberty. They’re all just a smoke screen to justify ruthlessly crushing any oppositions: martial law, torture, murder, genocide, chattel slavery; these are all perfectly forgivable in defense of liberalism, at worst they’ll get you called “not a great guy”, but you certainly won’t be called “a dangerous authoritarian in crazy land” and you will always, always, be certain that you will be considered better than any leftist leader.
I seriously cannot get over saying chattel slavery and genocide are better than Lenin, or that Churchhill; a man who genocided millions of people and proudly presided over the most brutal empire in history, is better than the Russian revolution.
Alright dude, now you’re just misrepresenting my views and revealing your own biases and we’re going nowhere. I don’t have time to make a comprehensive response to all that, I’m just going to go outside enjoy the freedom and prosperity that my evil liberal society has provided me. Good thing I won’t have to wait in a bread line at Costco, it’s a real time saver.
I’m just going to go outside enjoy the freedom and prosperity that my evil liberal society has provided me.
Like I said, you don’t actually believe in any of the value of ideals you claim; you’re the beneficiary of a liberal order built on imperialism, exploitation, and genocide, and you hate anyone who threatens to take that from you. Ten million Palestinians, Ethiopians, Indians, Yemeni, and whoever else needs to can die horribly, but so long as you have your Costco, you’re happy.
Can you name a large scale anarchist project with better rights than Cuba or Vietnam?
I’ll save you the effort: nah. Catalonia had concentration camps and “free” Ukraine was a bandit dictatorship that empowered kulaks to do pogroms. And they both got crushed partially due to a lack of centralization, and a lack of collaboration with and alienation from popular fronts.
“Tankies” as you put it, are the actual leftists advancing liberation, and not just jerking themselves off about how left they are, which is easy to do when their ideology remains only theoretical. When the rubber hits the road, anarchists fall somewhere between the brutality of socialist projects and capitalism.
As Trotsky said “anarchism is a rain coat that leaks only while it is wet”
I don’t believe in rights. at least, there’s no such thing as an inalienable right, since governments can and do take them away. I’m not even sure how to begin to answer your question given that I think that you’re talking about fictions. sort of like asking me which anarchist society had the most thetans, or protection spirits.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure. but I guess it’s true that some people still side with the wrong people at the second international.
Not even positive rights? You’re literally like “authority means it is by definition a class society” and you don’t believe in rights? How do you square that circle?
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
I didn’t think that I’d have to explain to somebody that the very existence of a hierarchy implies class structure.
And of course, there was no hierarchy in actual anarchist societies. /s.
Have you never heard of the concept of a transitional state? You know, that thing that socialists and anarchists both do, that involves hierarchy in repressing right wing elements? That socialists actually acknowledge the evil of, as opposed to pretending like they’re not doing a transitional state?
Or do you have a new super special plan to do classless society day one? If so I’d love to hear it.
nothing like moving the goalposts to end the workday.
i’m opposed to prefigurative theories of revolution. we don’t know what society will look like in every corner of the world without oppression. we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
we do know what oppression is, and we can fight it.
You’re against concentration of power. Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
Can you name a single revolution that succeeded without some concentrated power, democratically concentrated or otherwise?
you’re going to need to define revolution and success and concentration, and at this point, we might as well just lay our cards on the table. you believe it’s only practical to have a transitional state. i have a suspicion about anything that even smells like a state. we will not reconcile this in !memes today.
i don’t think i’m misrepresenting your position. i feel i understand it, and i disagree about the practicality of setting up a system of oppression to end oppression.
Okay, so, the end result of inspiring people means that their political project succeeded? Their end goal was to inspire people? I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
I feel like they probably shouldn’t have done those things then, if they weren’t able to sustain themselves in the face of that sort of state repression like communists could.
no. I think they could have won 100 years ago and I think they could win tomorrow. I like the tactic. people can be inspired and it can happen in an instant.
do I want to bet that you don’t know the future? absolutely. here’s a proof.
<span style="color:#323232;">knowledge is defined as a justified true belief.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">you can't have evidence about the future because it hasn't happened.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">truth claims about the future have no value because it hasn't happened.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">there is no justification that can produce knowledge about the future.
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">you don't know the future.
</span>
qed
edit: oh fuck. I was supposed to bet something. how about a loaf of bread?
Exactly like how I can confidently predict your perfect spontaneous anarchist revolution won’t happen to tomorrow, no matter how much you insist that “it could”
i figured if you lost a bet you wouldn’t welch on it. and calling me tankie, when this whole discussion is about me opposing authoritarian regimes no matter how they wish to portray themselves, is simply dishonest.
I thought their end goal was a classless, stateless society?
right, but since we (they) eschew(ed) prefigurative theories, we (they) only organized to fight. the actual structure of society is up to the people who live in the world that we (they) make possible.
one has nothing to do with the other, except that hierarchies sometimes pretend to respect (or grant)rights, but the fact that they have the discretion means the rights, themselves, are fictions.
It honestly feels like this is a cheap rhetorical dismissal because you don’t want to compare what the actual material benefits of socialist revolutions are vs anarchist revolutions.
that’s not what you proposed to use as a metric. i’m not sure how to quantify them and, frankly, or what a good measure would be, i guess.
i do know that i don’t trust anyone else to decide how i keep myself fed and safe. given the choice in constructing a revolution, i would empower individuals to a maximum degree and destroy concentrations of power wherever they’re found.
And I’m going to tell you you’re wrong. And then I’m going to find people who actually want to change the status quo for the better to work together with.
it is. since you seem opposed to learning anywhere but Lemmy, I’ll help you out. equivocation is an informal fallacy where you use one word in a certain context with a particular meaning, and then you use the same word in a different context with a different meaning, and then you claim that they’re the same thing. The authority of the boot maker is different from the authority of the cop. The authority of the doctor is different from the authority of the insurance company.
it is. since you seem opposed to learning anywhere but Lemmy, I’ll help you out. equivocation is an informal fallacy where you use one word in a certain context with a particular meaning, and then you use the same word in a different context with a different meaning, and then you claim that they’re the same thing.
Oh my God, go back to Reddit you insufferable debate bro.
i have been expressing my earnest feelings and doing my best to convey them to you. explaining your equivocation was no more debate bro than explaining the definition of communism is. please look back through here, and you’ll find that i’m quite happy to admit i don’t really know everything, i don’t have a perfect plan for every thing, and i don’t care to argue about any of it. i don’t mind discussing, but your accusation of debate bro-ing seems, to me, like projection.
it is. since you seem opposed to learning anywhere but Lemmy, I’ll help you out. equivocation is an informal fallacy where you use one word in a certain context with a particular meaning, and then you use the same word in a different context with a different meaning, and then you claim that they’re the same thing.
Yeah ok, totally not a debate bro
If that’s how you want to do it, I’m happy to come to your level and just copy paste the Wikipedia definition of proof by assertion and fallacy fallacy while dropping smug lines like “I’ll help you out”
Proof by assertion, sometimes informally referred to as proof by repeated assertion, is an informal fallacy in which a proposition is repeatedly restated regardless of contradiction and refutation.[1] The proposition can sometimes be repeated until any challenges or opposition cease, letting the proponent assert it as fact, and solely due to a lack of challengers (argumentum ad nauseam).[2] In other cases, its repetition may be cited as evidence of its truth, in a variant of the appeal to authority or appeal to belief fallacies.[3]
I think the anarchists in Spain have more of a claim to define anarchism than you tbh. And they absolutely had authority. Hell, they had concentration camps.
you know I dwelt on this a bit, and the revolution was thrown by the people and it wasn’t thrown for mercantilism. it was just against the feudal system. but what followed was mercantilism. merchants didn’t throw the revolution. I don’t know how you got the conclusion that the French revolution was a mercantilist revolution. I honestly can’t think of a single mercantilist revolution. The closest thing I can imagine are the American revolution and possibly the piracy of the 18th century.
All of that is besides the point; the point is that none of these revolutions produced the kind of perfect anarchist society you want, and you would oppose them.
Okay, so at this point it seems anarchist societies are pretty impossible, if all these principled anarchists end up forming non-anarchist societies over and over again when they win power.
So what is even the point of being an anarchist? To feel good about yourself?
Thats literally the difference between us, I believe less exploitation is better than waiting for a perfect solution. Socializing the means of production, even if it doesn’t eliminate all exploitation, eliminates capitalist exploitation, which is a massive win for the working class as it is the main source of our exploitation.
I’m not sure if after capitalism is destroyed socialist States will actually wither away or not, but Im sure they’ll be less bloody to move past than capitalism was if it is the latter.
I dont exist in structures where the meeting facilitator has that much of an impact to the point that the meeting would be derailed by a shitty one, but I guess that’s a difference between the ways our ideologies organize.
it was the smallest amount of power I could concieve. certainly, there is an authority in small things like setting the agenda and deciding on how strictly to adhere to timetables.
a lot of the meetings that I go to are pretty much organized as do-ocracies. someone says they are willing to do the work of taking notes or do the work of facilitating, and everybody’s relieved that they didn’t have to step up.
That doesn’t sound consensus based or consent based at all, lol, you don’t even have a democratically elected and instantly recallable committee to assign the work? Damn, anarchists are out here having more hierarchy in their political structure than the tankies.
Earnestly: while we live in a deeply stratified society, if you dont intentionally form power structures informal, incredibly undemocratic ones will fill that void, as is this case with what you’re describing.
I guess I just don’t understand what you’re getting at…I don’t have a chart of population sizes. I’m just going to say I don’t know, but an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
let’s say, though, that none ever existed. so what?
If none exist while socialist projects exist, that suggests that the ideology is nonviable at large scales at this point in time. And “just waiting” while capitalism cripples the biosphere and kills millions is an expression of prioritizing your own perfectionism over preventing actual suffering.
I think that many small interconnected communities is what we should be aiming for anyway, so any small community to me is evidence that it can work. The fact that all of these communities are surrounded by imperialists or capitalist societies doesn’t preclude more people from forming egalitarian communities and communicating and working with those that are existant. I have no desire to build a system capable of oppressing people, because I don’t want to be responsible for people’s oppression.
Imprecise definition aside, revolutions have to be able to defend themselves, and it could be argued Catalonia and Ukraine started in much better material positions and ended up falling apart because of problems with their political/economic structure, while the semi-centralized democracy and rationalized economy of the USSR allowed them to succeed in defending itself from the Nazis (but not, ultimately, from the US empire, however Vietnam, Cuba, laos, and China succeeded, and the DPRK partially succeeded)
No. There’s a spectrum of both communism and anarchism, their intersection tends to be known as anarcho-communism. An example of non-anarchist communism is vanguardist communism, which is inherently authoritarian (and anti-anarchist).
This is funny until someone you love dies and the pile of cards they gave you throughout your life is one of the things that makes you feel closest to them.
You know, I was once a small child that needed my mother’s care. And she enjoyed giving cards for every occasion. So yes I did get some valentines day cards from her.
Yes but the reason I purchased from play store (which has the side effect of donating an undeserved 30% to google) was that I could easily share the access with the family without too much effort, just send a link to them 😢
I believe, Fossify Gallery has practically the same features as Simple Gallery Pro. So, your family does still get full access with just the F-Droid link…
Simple Mobile Tools got sold and probably will go the web extension way of scammers loading it up with malware to extract private info and sell it. Delete it now.
That’s so annoying - I have a ton of their apps too!
Looks like I’ll be staying on these ancient F-Droid versions for a while until a replacement shows up… but ugh I am so annoyed. Files, Draw, and the gallery in particular that allowed you to resize (strips EXIF data), crop and do all sorts was so handy
Note: I use droid-ify, another client for Fdroid, but personally prefer this one as I can easily add other necessary repositories that add even more apps to the store front. Droid-ify
It was bought out by ZippoApps, which is notorious for buying popular apps, loading them with adware/spyware, then abandoning them once all the users eventually flee.
Go look at the added permissions that the new versions require. You’re basically handing them an image of your entire phone.
No, he didn’t say it needs more users to port it, just to support it. Support means more than getting it working, it means testing and customer support if there are issues, which means training testers and support people.
The extra load here would be much lower if it was a single player game, but because it’s MP, they need to know how exploitable it is by cheaters, and perhaps patch some vulnerabilities out.
It’s a lot more than flipping a switch, but it’s also something Epic could totally handle. He’s not lying, he’s just content to milk his cash cow as long as he expects to not lose too many customers by not supporting Linux.
Wealthy socialite Human Woman had it all, ceo of the top you feel bad magazine, house on top of building and even a tiny enslaved bark beast, the only thing Human Woman was missing was a chemical reaction.
Human Woman receives a electrical waveform, Human Woman’s Human Grandmother mush box has stopped, Human Woman emigrated in moving iron box to original location, meeting Human Man also from original location, chemical reaction happens and Human Woman And Human man become human Couple
You might enjoy “A Christmas Movie Christmas”, where the protagonists wake up and find themselves as the protagonists in a Christmas movie reality. It’s a comedy where you basically laugh at the troops while they call themselves out on it.
You’re not being oppressed. It’s just that saying merry Christmas to a crowd of diverse backgrounds is like wishing your mum a happy fathers day. She won’t be mad or offended, she’ll just think she should have breastfed you.
Or telling someone “happy birthday “ when they’re in a group of people who aren’t having birthdays themselves. Only a three year old would get upset that they’re not included.
Most “traditions”, including holiday traditions, food culture, etc, are incredibly recent things. But people cling to it like they are the totality of their identify.
Maybe it’s different in the US and other cultures, but as an atheist I’ve never seen the phrase as a very religious thing. I say “merry Christmas” and “happy holidays” indistinctly and I’ve never seen anyone offended by the use of either, independtly of their faith (or lack thereof).
I say “merry Christmas” on the actual Christmas day though.
No one is offended besides the hardcore Christians. No muslim or orthodox Christian or whatever would be mad if you wish them merry Christmas if that’s the thing where you both live. As always, it’s fake fabricated outrage.
Seems like a mistake to place the danger zone on that side of the Kerem Shalom goods crossing, but then again they left that moron Netanyahu in charge so I’m sure that’s no mistake.
I heard Egypt actually warned Israel of the exact date of the initial attack and Israel still failed to react, it becomes harder every day to think this whole war wasn’t the intention of Israel leadership.
Honestly Europe is pretty overrated. I know it varies from country to country, but my experiences in Sweden were nothing but disappointments. People here nut their pants over the positives while completely ignoring the many negatives.
In Czech Republic it’s kinda opposite. People nut their pants over paper straws and Coca-Cola caps you can’t remove and they completely ignore the bilions of euros EU gave us (there are the built from EU funds signs basically everywhere). Also some populist politicians saw the oportunity in this and for example our ex premier now makes cringe Tik-Toks where he shits on EU and green deal, even though he was the premier and his party leading goverment when the green deal was approved and he wasn’t against it. Now he says how EU is bad and how it’s fault of current government. This was one example, but there are many czech politicians trying to milk the general dissatisfaction with EU, making it even worse.
“The worst illiterate is the political illiterate, he doesn’t hear, doesn’t speak, nor participates in the political events. He doesn’t know the cost of life, the price of the bean, of the fish, of the flour, of the rent, of the shoes and of the medicine, all depends on political decisions. The political illiterate is so stupid that he is proud and swells his chest saying that he hates politics. The imbecile doesn’t know that, from his political ignorance is born the abandoned child, and the worst thieves of all, the bad politician, corrupted and flunky of the national and multinational companies.”
Your innocence is still maintained if you if you only know “TealDeer” as a silly little pun. There is something much worse behind the reference. Partly why I linked the video was because if I remember right, like me you despise pedants especially of the debatebro reddit new atheist antifeminist brand. Tl;dr was one of the worst and thats saying something.
I’m glad I haven’t seen more than this video about them, then. Already has that “Oy I am British m8 therefore Reddit sees me as intellectual authority I swear on me mum ya c–t” thing going on.
Ah its that fucker, im man enough to say that I listened to him in high school. On another note I would absolutely throw the highschool version of myself off a roof, amd then harvest their organs and skin for spare parts.
Kinda makes sense that they fit under the same umbrella. It’s a large section of what I’d call mediocre car makers. Not the absolute worst, but far from the best.
Indeed, I feel like Hyundai / Kia cars either shit the bed really early, or last a really long time like a Toyota. No in-between.
Case in point, my 2020 Elantra blew its engine at 7,000km. Got it replaced under warranty, doing frequent maintenance on it, going strong at 70,000 km with zero issues. It just now needed brakes!
Fair point. Most really cheap crap is long gone these days. But I’d rather sit in one of those three than a Land Rover, Ssangyong or Nissan (which has been plagued with horrible reliability issues as of late).
I can’t put into words how much I despise modern stadium country. It’s like the opposite of art. I grew up in the south around people who could only stomach country music like that. Everything else to them was too weird, or not white enough.
The closest analogy to country music are the movies fascists made, like the ones Hans Steinhoff and Goebbels directed. Completely banal plots and lack of artistic value. The only reason they were made as to communicate fascist rhetoric and fulfill a quota of cultural markers.
That’s all modern country music is. It’s the music of boring middle class white people who feel uneasy if their specific cultural touchstones aren’t constantly reinforced. There have to be trucks, land ownership, high school football, generic American jingoism, glorification of alcoholism.
The most common thread in this shit music is that anything outside of a middle class conservative white lifestyle is to be mistrusted. The girl from a small town who goes off to college in a big city, but realizes her home was truly out in the sticks. The song about how country values make a person more virtuous or fun. “Don’t go over that hill, don’t go looking for anything further.” It could possibly be a sweet sentiment if it weren’t for the target audience: comfortable white shitheads who drive a $80,000 Ford truck in the suburbs.
At least with propaganda it’s the ruling class messaging the citizenry. In this case, at least for the most part seems self-inflicted and without purpose. People just gravitate to whatever fits their identity.
That’s all modern country music is. It’s the music of boring middle class white people who feel uneasy if their specific cultural touchstones aren’t constantly reinforced. There have to be trucks, land ownership, high school football, generic American jingoism, glorification of alcoholism.
At least with propaganda it’s the ruling class messaging the citizenry. In this case, at least for the most part seems self-inflicted and without purpose. People just gravitate to whatever fits their identity.
Don’t forget the record labels. Mega corporations are the ruling class of our society.
Oh no, absolutely not is country music self inflicted. Modern country music is part of the same propaganda network as everything else in capitalism. The whole Nashville and Georgia country scenes have been connected at the hip with conservative money since at least the 1970s where Nixon had a country campaign song. Then there was Reagan showing up at the Grand Ole Opry. It’s a useful vehicle to spread and satiate the thirst for white supremacy.
There’s also Clear Channel Radio (currently iHeartRadio) which is run by ideological conservatives.
Also there’s some kind of money floating around to suddenly promote the odd country song or two, like that Rich Men in Richmond song, or that stupid Jason Aldean guy. Every now and then you’ll see a random headline like “country star fights back against woke-ness in new song.” And that’s the propaganda.
Parasites hopping onto a culture to exploit it for their own gains is not really the same as state propaganda. I don’t think there’s some shadowy group inventing this music to control the masses. Though politicians would no doubt pander to (or even weaponize) a group if they can. And people will absolutely try and profit off it.
It’s just a bit of a leap to ascribe low brow music to some grand conspiracy. Or at least if that is, then every culture is a conspiracy.
I guess I don’t see much of a distinction between those exploitative parasites and the state actors. I’m on the side of Althusser here, where the state is both a structural arrangement and a set of ideological norms. In that sense, you could say all culture is a conspiracy, as in a conspiracy to replicate the content and character of one’s class interests.
I don’t mean to say there’s a shadowy group creating it, rather, there’s a shadowy group that gives a platform and representation to things that promote their own interests. Or something they can flip around and sell back to you. Capitalism is crafty like that, like Che Guevara t-shirts.
I believe that mainstream country turned to shit in the 80s, not sure why. My theory is that it’s down to the money men in Nashville turning out an increasingly phony product for commercial reasons, but I don’t actually know enough about that aspect of the business to have an informed opinion.
Fortunately there’s always been legit musicians turning out excellent alt-country or Americana, or whatever we want to call it. Also a lot of the older country musicians never completely sold out either.
That sounds about right. I also think that at some point around that time the big Nashville labels decided that it made more financial sense to get behind a specific type of cultural and political messaging than it did to simply let the music be whatever it wanted to be.
Long gone were the days of Loretta “The Coal Miner’s Daughter,” and Johnny Paycheck “I Owe my Soul to the Company Store,” and while we still had Guy Clark and Townes Van Zandt and their protogé young Steve Earle, for the most part mainstream country and western was turning into formulaic corporate crap.
The closest analogy to country music are the movies fascists made, like the ones Hans Steinhoff and Goebbels directed. Completely banal plots and lack of artistic value. The only reason they were made as to communicate fascist rhetoric and fulfill a quota of cultural markers.
That sounds exactly like the kind of slop in genres from video games to shows to movies that chuds attempt to sell to other chuds under the pretense of being “based” or “nonpolitical” mockeries of stuff they consumed before.
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