Fortnite uses both EAC and BattleEye, so it really isn’t that easy to integrate with their custom solution. Also, they have to test it to make sure no bugs are introduced. Afterall, it’s a multi-billion USD game.
But as we know, they really don’t care, so even if it was only a day of development time, they wouldn’t do it.
I highly doubt they’ll find any bugs even if they did test it. Even if there were bugs, most likely Valve + the community would be the one’s patching it.
Epic doesn’t want to try because they have a stick very deep up their ass.
Just as a heads up, while they did drop the Linux client, unless it’s been changed very recently you can just use the Windows version through Proton/WINE and play that way.
Which isn’t an excuse for what they’ve done, I only mention it in case you or someone else didn’t already know.
So he want the game to get to 10 millions player on steam deck only then support it, but without supporting it the game won’t get to 10 millions player. It’s not a linux problem Tim, it’s you.
And look how late they were when it came to launching their own digital platform. I’m not taking about games being on PC.
This is a company that saw consoles more worth putting resources towards and didn’t see it worth it too start their own Steam competitor even back in 2008.
Every gaming company basically thought the PC was dead for gaming, only to be relegated to nerd paying high prices for hardware to play niche nerdy shit.
Honestly I still don’t know what changed, even Japanese devs are releasing on PC again, it’s a weird time.
Well apparently Valve didn’t get the memo. By the time PS3 came out and the further into the Gen it got it became clearer that digital was the way forward. And you’d think a company with PC roots would have gotten their own digital distribution platform started once steam sales caught on.
The whole everyone thought pc was dead excuse is a poor one because Epic took until 2018 to bother with their own distribution platform. That’s a hell of a long time and too many years from the PC is dead excuse.
That’s what I mean by many many many missed chances. They had over a decade to enter as it became more and more obvious the money there was to be made from PC gamers.
Why should they have a distribution platform? Pretty much every game except , and at least I never considered a digital distribution platform as a kid since boxed games worked just fine. I didn’t have a Steam account until Steam came to Linux, yet I played plenty of PC games in the meantime on both Windows and Linux. I bought a mixture of boxed games and online downloads, I didn’t need a launcher to do that for me.
Yes, they missed the boat, but it wasn’t obvious that the boat was going where they wanted to go. Valve took that risk and won big, but other large studios didn’t and were absolutely fine focusing on game dev, and it wasn’t until recently that they wanted in.
PC gaming has only had a slow, steady rise since Steam entered the scene. But perhaps one other catalyst might have been the Games For Windows initiative (not "Live") that standardized controller support, added some extra marketing oomph, and gave more incentive to make the same game on PC and console rather than making two entirely different games (sometimes with the same title, like Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter).
Yes that’s correct. They seemed dismissive of it even back in 2008 seeing more cons than potential in the market. It’s like the Windows approach to smartphones entering in after Android and iOS established themselves. Except even later with years and years passing as it became clearer PC gaming was becoming more accessible and it’s own formidable market. They missed a lot of earlier chances to enter.
Isn’t he the asshole who threw a tantrum about pirates and swore to never release on pc again? Dude is just a worthless little bitch that doesn’t actually care about industry in the slightest. Every success epic has ever had has been in spite of him.
They don’t have to release on Linux at all!!
All they have to do is click a checkbox in the EAC SDK & contact Battleye to support Valve’s Proton & that’s it!! It is a Tim Sweeney problem.
Also, Unreal Engine, which the Epic Games Launcher was built in for some reason also has a checkmark for Linux, and they refuse to tick it. It’s to the point that while it is possible to do development for Unreal on Linux, they had to build a completely different way to get it up and running since the launcher doesn’t support Linux.
They consciously make efforts not to support Linux, it would literally take less effort to do it.
To be entirely fair this is much less of a “tick the Linux box” solution, you actually have to program thing differently to work on Linux in that case. They obviously have the resources to do it but it’s less infuriating than the literal single click it would take to enable EAC on Linux on $game.
Fortnite loads fine on Linux but closes after reaching the main menu. It doesn’t crash, it closes. They’re actively blocking the community from self-supporting.
There have even been times when Fortnite’s anti cheat was broken so that you could actually play the game perfectly fine on Linux.
I also once managed to get long enough into a game to be yelled at because the mic is open by default (which happened to be my laptop mic). Then I got kicked by anti cheat.
Yeah, but to be fair, maybe that fact about the EAC SDK isn’t common knowledge. I mean, we know it in our community, but a Windows-only game dev like Epic might not quite notice.
If that’s the case, then maybe whoever owns EAC could get some good publicity if they could convince Tim Sweeney to do a public stunt like livestreaming the process of opening up the config for Fortnite, enabling it for Proton, and then testing it on the Steam Deck. EAC gets good publicity, and Fortnite gets all the extra revenue from the Steam Deck users.
Of course, Tim Sweeney wouldn’t reach out on his own, he’s probably got far too many bigger things to do. It’s up to whoever owns EAC to get that ball rolling and schedule a meeting with Sweeney to make this proposal and see if they can make it work.
Does anyone know who that second person is? Not Tim Sweeney (the guy who probably doesn’t realize how easy it is to enable this in EAC), but the other person (the person who owns EAC)? Because trying to get through to that first guy is a challenge, so maybe we can get that second person to try their hand at it.
Yes, generating a Linux build wouldn’t require a lot of changes to the code.
But if they support Linux, they have to support Linux. This is not some student’s first indie game, but instead a massive game with up to 290 million monthly active users. That’s 3.7% of the whole world’s population! (And it’s also more than the number of total Linux users.)
So supporting Linux means they need to test on at least all currently maintained versions of maybe the top 20 or so distros on all sorts of hardware configurations. That would increase their testing costs by around a factor of 20.
They also need to support customers if they have problems. Considering the variability of Linux configurations, chances are high that this comparatively small segment of players will consume an aproportional amount of difficult support requests.
And lastly, if the Linux version of the game has some serious bugs on some setup, it might likely be that all these Linux users think the game is shit and start talking badly about it.
So it’s just a simple cost calculation: Does Linux support increase or decrease the total profit?
And if the variables change, the calculation changes with it. Exactly as Sweeny said in his post. People like Sweeny don’t care about ideals or about which OS they prefer. They only care about money.
And the revelation that a CEO likes money and dislikes risk isn’t exactly hard to figure out.
Then they get bad press for cheaters using Linux or whatever due to some bug they easily could’ve caught during the QA they didn’t do. So they either need to scramble to fix it, or pull Linux support and block those older versions from connecting.
All of that is worse than never supporting Linux in the first place. So if they’re going to support it, they’re going to need to do proper QA and get their support staff trained to deal with Linux issues.
A smaller studio or something with SP only mode can get away with it, but it’s a lot more tricky for big MP games.
Can and should are very different things. Here are some big differences to understand why it doesn’t make sense for Fortnite, but it might make sense for Apex:
Fortnite isn’t on Steam, so the only people who would play it on Linux are enthusiasts and cheaters (if it’s easier than on Windows)
Fortnite has way more players than Apex - the possible pool for new users is likely much smaller for Fortnite, and the potential for making money is higher with getting current users to spend than attracting new ones, and they have more users to lose with bad press
Fortnite doesn’t have to be on steam to work. The only thing they’d likely have to change is removing the steam runtime, assuming Epic were to make a Linux store front, which is completely unnecessary because we already have our own solutions : Legendary/Heroic & Lutris. lemmy.world/comment/6020626
Just like how Valve worked with Epic to get EAC working, they also worked with Battleye to get Battleye working, just have to contact Battleye to enable it.
It’s literally just another runtime.
B-Bu-But cheaters
There’s cheaters on every single platform, I can deadass cheat in fortnite from my android phone, PS4, Windows PC, and everything in between. What’s 2 more cheater’s per thousands more users.
Fuck, I can use an external raspberry pi and bypass their kernel lvl tamper protection in a snap.
And again, if Apex can detect people cheating on Linux from server side like EAC and Battleye is supposed to in the first place, then so can Epic Games.
Please stop defending this bullshit, Epic Games has everything in their power to support Linux and their excuses are merely just that, excuses.
I’m sick and tired of people shilling for this POS mega corp with the same bs arguments.
I’m not saying it needs be on Steam to work, I’m saying it needs to be on Steam to be popular on the Steam Deck since the install process is otherwise quite involved. So if they just enable Proton in EAC, they’ll only get a handful of enthusiasts (who are probably playing on another platform anyway) and open themselves up to Linux-specific cheats.
so can Epic Games
I’m not saying they can’t, I’m saying it’s probably not profitable for them to do so. They’re not going to get many new users if they support Linux, so the net impact is that they’ll have another platform for support requests and potential cheats.
Apex is on Steam, so the barrier to play their game on Linux/Steam Deck is really low (just enable and potential users are now ~2% higher). So for them, turning on Linux support is probably profitable since they’ll convert a lot more people on that platform.
Please stop defending
What am I defending? I’m explaining why it likely doesn’t make business sense for Epic to support Linux. My point here isn’t to claim that Epic is doing something good here, but to show it’s probably not some weird hatred of Linux, but a business choice. Some of it is also probably a rivalry with Valve, but I don’t think Sweeney would let that get in the way of profits if push came to shove. Sweeney’s main goal AFAICT is to make money, not to stick it to some competitor.
Yes, Epic could support Linux pretty quickly if they chose to. They’re choosing not to, most likely because it won’t make them as much money as other efforts would. It’s really not complicated.
You can install other store fronts on Steam Deck with ease. It’s called flatpak : lutris, heroic.
The install process is not that involved, we can literally install fortnite right now on steam deck.
Hell, it even briefly ran on Steam Deck in 2022 when they fucked up and the Anti-cheat was half broken.
I’m saying it’s probably not profitable for them to do so.
My point here isn’t to claim that Epic is doing something good here, but to show it’s probably not some weird hatred of Linux, but a business choice.
Yeah, Epic totally killed the pre-existing, and flawlessly working Linux version of Rocket League when they acquired the studio and then refused to refund because “meh profits, leh business choice” (ಠ_ಠ)>⌐■-■
They couldn’t possibly have a hard on for fucking over Linux users.
The fact they even still allow it to run under proton is a fuckin miracle, or rather they know that’d they get bad PR as it’s already proven to be viable.
Also, don’t you find it fucking hilarious how they fired a fuck load of developers and then Tim goes “if only we had more developers” 💀
Yes, I have those installed as well, and it’s not hard. But it’s a barrier for mass adoption. I’m interested to know how many people who own a Steam Deck actually have Lutris or Heroic installed, and how many of those actually use it. I have both, but I’ve only used them a handful of times. My guess is less than half have either installed, and less than half of those use them.
So we’re looking at a fraction of an already small group of users, and the vast majority who would use it to play Fortnite already play on another supported platform. So why should Epic go out of their way to support it? The playerbase isn’t there, so there’s really not much economic incentive to do so.
Rocket League
That’s a separate issue IMO. They wanted it exclusive on EGS (mostly for sweet sweet MTX profit), and EGS didn’t (and still doesn’t) support Linux. So their choice is one of the following:
keep the Steam version, but only for Linux users - that’s really odd
port EGS to Linux - probably not worth it, since they’d also be expected to port a bunch of other stuff as well
kill Rocket League Linux port - loses some customers (like me), but ultimately is probably cheaper long term
They knew they’d lose some users in the EGS switch, but the point with Rocket League wasn’t to maximize players of RL, but to maximize users of EGS, which they hope would result in higher total sales on the platform. If you’re already on EGS for RL, maybe you’ll try Fortnite and get hooked. It’s a harder sell if you can still use your platform of choice.
Epic wants to sell EGS exclusives and make that MTX recurring revenue. That’s why they bought RL, why they made it free, and why is exclusive to EGS. That’s already why they buy these exclusivity agreements, and supporting Linux doesn’t fit in that strategy.
It kinda sucks, but at the end of the day, I have plenty of other options on Steam that I’m not going to bother much (I actually still play SP RL sometimes on Steam when I get a hankering, but I’m boycotting MP). I have never purchased anything from Epic, nor have I played any of their games outside of a quick test to mess with my Steam Deck. It’s an unattractive platform because they don’t support my platform. If they decided to support Linux, maybe I’d give them another shot.
I don’t hate Epic because of it, I totally understand why they’re making the choices they are. I’m not going to go through hoops to play their games until they go through hoops to earn me as a customer. They don’t seem to want that, so whatever. The same is true for Origin (or EA Play out whatever it’s called now), Microsoft Gamepass, UPlay, etc no, and other game platforms, so I just don’t buy from them. Every year Valve earns my business by making more and more games available (I’ve been Linux only since before Steam on Linux was a thing), so they get my money.
It’s one thing to not release for Linux (thanks to wine and proton it’s no Biggie) another thing is to actively sabotage it to run on Linux which some Developers who can’t check a fricking Checkbox in EAC do.
Not preventing Linux use is implicit support, and it opens up another platform for cheaters to exploit. So if it works and your entire game is based on the online, MP experience, you need to QA on all possible platforms to stay on top of cheaters.
Support for Steam Deck != support for Linux version. Steam Deck use Proton to run Windows game on linux seamlessly.
Their direct competitor, Apex Legend, is steam deck verified. Big games like Monster Hunter World/Rise, Cyberpunk, Baldurs Gate 3, Elden Ring, etc etc, all steam deck verified. Check out this page for more info
It’s not a Linux problem, it’s a Tim Sweeny problem.
Support for Steam Deck != support for Linux version.
You are correct , however proton ( and the upstream project wine ) is made for linux not the steam deck , ie a game which works on the steam deck will work on linux in most cases .
proton / wine can also be used to run a lot of non game software made for windows ( though proton is made explicitly for games ) , though I will admit steam has the best ux around running software using wine or proton .
but yes it is a Tim Sweeney problem , not a Linux problem .
something I will also add is that they have at least part of the game running on linux already , unless they are paying a fortune in both licencing and lost performance by running the games servers on windows .
10 million is just an arbitrary number he will not honor when it is reached.
Valve has sold ‘multiple millions’(source) already. The 10 million will probably be reached soon. Not even to mention all the Linux users.
And frankly it’s not a him problem. Nearly every dev refuses to release on Linux (and Mac) because of its small user base.
Yes it is. He does not have to release for Linux. He just needs to allow the anti cheat to run on Proton. This is a simple config change not more. Fortnite will probably run fine on Proton.
I conveniently had my UT04 retail box sitting on the shelf next to me. I can confirm there’s a little penguin on the back of package, and under OS requirements they list Linux with an asterisk explaining it’s not supported by Atari (publisher).
There is nothing else in the manual indicating how to use the Linux version, which disk to use, or any additional information that I can find.
Edit: geez I miss game manuals sometimes. All the game mechanics are so nicely explained, and it has instructions to setup modding tools!
Epic shut down the UT2004 master server back in this spring, before it died the community had created a new public master server, I had to edit the master server address in ut2004.ini but it works.
Epic does deserve credit for running the master server for a game for 19 years, regardless of their current actions, that deserves mad respect.
They even ran their stats tracking service untill then IIRC…
About ten years ago, I switched to Linux, but two years later I switched back to Windows for gaming, I didn’t want to have to deal with gaming on Linux and fiddle with settings to get it all working.
I know that things have changed and that gaming on Linux is far better now, but as I now work mostly in Windows, I am just too comfortable with it to switch again right now.
Them not bother with Linux says all there is to say about their anti trust cases. Only thing that bothers them about monopolies is that they arent one, and even when there is an opportunity to enter into a market where there is no competitors they don’t want to bother investing in it. They don’t care about open platforms or investing in it first.
It’s why they were late to getting a hold of PC distribution. And in the unlikely event Linux OS takes off be complaining about Steam’s presence there.
It’s a Linux problem because you can’t ensure a kernel module in Linux is untouched by the user. This is a design on Linux. This means Linux and secured anti cheat solutions are fundamentally at odds.
Sounds like the same excuse that would be made back in 2008 when epic felt consoles were more worth investing in than PC and only seeings cons to the hardware, and took until 2018 to even bother to try to start their own digital distribution.
And here’s Linux in its infancy just beginning to start becoming a little more accessible to regular people, and potential to enter the market early and also get more control compared to all the platforms run by other companies they complain about. And yet, like before they don’t want to bother investing in anything themselves and taking risks to get established first before competitors gain a foothold.
Simple fact is for all the technical excuses they don’t care unless another company shows it is profitable to do first.
Why should they. They are in the business if making innovative and interesting games. Not innovative hardware or dealing with 2% of the marketplace. They don’t even fully support Mac which has a larger market share. I can’t blame them for making their business one of reducing risks in underdeveloped areas.
Cheats nowadays don’t even need to run on your machine. You can get a second computer that is connected to your computer via a capture card, analyze your video feed with an AI and send mouse commands wirelessly from it (mimicking the signal for your USB receiver).
These anti-cheats are nothing more than privacy invasion, and any game maker that believes they have the upper hand on people that want to cheat are very wrong.
Opening up anti-cheat support for Linux would at least make them more creative at finding these people from their behaviour, and not from analysing everything that’s running in the background.
None of these solutions are lazy, and I promise you they have large server side components too. From what I can tell, shooters are just especially cursed when it comes to cheating, and there's no real way to stop it.
Yes but also the barrier to entry on those sorts of hacks is very high. Every houses front door lock can be picked in the matter of minutes. The issue is that lots of people don’t have that skill.
Lastly there are heuristic anti cheat but that’s really only a catch all for inhuman inputs. Not a full solution.
Client running code should always be considered compromisable, that’s security 101. Relying on kernel module checks is a terrible practice, and not a fundamental guarantee of safety either.
Good, secure anti-cheat happens serverside. But that’s harder and less broadly applicable, so Epic doesn’t want to bother with it.
Client code isn’t trusted but no matter what the is one set of data you most trust that comes from the client. Input data. So with input data it can be manipulated that another application calculate out a headshot and sends that input. So even only trusting the client where you have to, you’ve failed to secure the game fully because you need to trust input data.
The first rule of network programming: Never trust the client. How does anti-cheat software work? It trusts the client.
All clientside anti-cheat is fundamentally flawed and broken by design. It doesn’t actually prevent cheating it just creates an illusion that it’s preventing cheating. The fewer people that believe in that illusion the better off we’ll all be.
Besides, you can train AI to play any game via MITM in USB (plug the mouse and keyboard into the Raspberry Pi or similar which then pretends to be a mouse and keyboard to the computer playing the game). The simplest method is to just point a camera at the monitor but there’s much lower latency ways where you use some cheap Chinese HDMI decoder/encoders to feed the raw video signal right into the AI.
With methods like that becoming cheaper and easier every day the whole client-side anti-cheat bullshit kinda seems pointless, yeah?
Most people put security cameras in their homes despite them being able to be remotely hacked. Lots of people have an Alexa which could also be seen as letting a stranger in. A lot of people use tools that could be used to compromise their direct use but trust they don’t as for things like anti-cheat being malware. That’s all FUD. There has not been a single large anti-cheat company known to be sending unneeded or personalized user data.
I don’t think they’ve ever cared about open platforms, they just care about profit. The Google and Apple cases were intended to allow them to bypass the app store fee for microtransactions. That’s it.
So them not supporting Linux has nothing to do with Linux itself, but the possibility for profit. If you read between the lines, Sweeney is basically saying, “our people are making more money on other projects than they would working on Linux support.” If Linux had lots of users that wouldn’t play on their other platforms, they could possibly make more by supporting Linux than other efforts (e.g. more cosmetics).
Sweeney is a simple guy, if it makes him more money than what he’s currently doing, he loves it. If it doesn’t, he’ll avoid it. There’s no deep seeded hatred of Linux here (EAC and Unreal Engine both support Linux, and the old Unreal Tournament games were Linux native), he just likes money more than anything else.
Sweeney is uncomplicated, and I like that. There’s no veiled promises or expectations, so it’s really easy to understand exactly why he does the things he does. I don’t buy his games or use his platform because I expect him to do the bare minimum to make money, so I instead spend my time and money elsewhere. Valve earns my business, Epic does not. I don’t hate Sweeney or Epic, I just find them uninteresting.
Because that checkbox undermines the security of EAC. Essentially it allows the service to run in the user space mode instead of kernel mode. This opens up a lot of hacking to games. It’s absolutely not a solution epic wants to take with their largest game.
There is also a very good reason that vac is looked at as the worse anti cheat solution in the industry. So much so that CSGO has to have third party anti cheat in their leagues.
That’s simply not a great solution. You can’t make a fast paced fps feel good without trusting the client. Even quake has some factor of client trust. The issue is that even if the client sends just inputs across the network, you still end up with cheats that seems the exact inputs to click on a person’s head. You are trusting the inputs are sane. So that’s the raw metric of not trusting the client, it’s just sending the user data and the user data can be manipulated in order to cheat.
So you still failed to secure the game simply by trusting the client. It’s not possible and it’s an argument that comes from not understanding the technical challenge at play here.
No amount of clientside anticheat software can stop that either though, anything running on the clientside can be faked/manipulated with enough effort
Also you could argue someone could simply plug in another device that takes a video input and can simulate a keyboard and mouse
On the server side, you could check for abnormalities in a person’s stats, for example if they get >90% headshots, if they’re getting a lot of kills outside a weapon’s normal range, amount of time aiming at enemies through walls that they shouldn’t be able to see etc etc
Then, once someone is suspicious enough, flag it up to a human moderator who can watch them and verify
Not saying there shouldn’t be any clientside anticheat at all but at the point of the anticheat putting itsself in kernel space it’s gone too far
On the server side, you could check for abnormalities in a person’s stats, for example if they get >90% headshots, if they’re getting a lot of kills outside a weapon’s normal range, amount of time aiming at enemies through walls that they shouldn’t be able to see etc etc
That’s called heuristics and EAC does that as well. Why not do both?
Not saying there shouldn’t be any clientside anticheat at all but at the point of the anticheat putting itsself in kernel space it’s gone too far
Why? this isn’t the opinion of a lot of the players out there.
What a tool. Fortnite generated $6 billion in 2022. He could throw hundreds of programmers just at Linux compatibility and it would still be obscenely profitable.
tim sweeney is a fuckwit. all directors need to have their salaries reduced to ordinary worker level. if they do not want the job, then give the job to an ordinary worker.
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