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Italian town in turmoil after far-right mayor bans Muslim prayers

Bangladeshi residents and others in Monfalcone say decisions to prohibit worship at cultural centres and banning burkinis at the beach is part of anti-Islam agenda

The envelope containing two partially burned pages of the Qur’an came as a shock. Until then, Muslim residents in the Adriatic port town of Monfalcone had lived relatively peacefully for more than 20 years.

Addressed to the Darus Salaam Muslim cultural association on Via Duca d’Aosta, the envelope was received soon after Monfalcone’s far-right mayor, Anna Maria Cisint, banned prayers on the premises.

“It was hurtful, a serious insult we never expected,” said Bou Konate, the association’s president. “But it was not a coincidence. The letter was a threat, generated by a campaign of hate that has stoked toxicity.”

Monfalcone’s population recently passed 30,000. Such a positive demographic trend would ordinarily spell good news in a country grappling with a rapidly declining birthrate, but in Monfalcone, where Cisint has been nurturing an anti-Islam agenda since winning her first mandate in 2016, the rise has not been welcomed.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Christianity did this.

Hadriscus ,

The amount of hate and ignorance ITT is staggering. Do better Lemmy, please

stoly ,

Lemmy has passed it’s golden moment now that enough regular Redditors made if over.

mods_are_assholes ,

Oh my friend it is going to get much, much worse. And of course this could all be solved by lemmy admins and mods cracking down on fascist posters, but they won’t.

stoly ,

Sounds like you prefer to be on Reddit where angry mods rule everything.

Crampon ,

What do you mean? I only see people here venting possible reasons for why European countries are vary of Islam. There’s no hate going on here.

If there was a confused hyper normalized comment here it’s yours.

fastandcurious , (edited )
@fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

There is a difference between trying to figure out why ppl are racist towards a particular group and saying that we should discriminate everyone equally who believe in god(The latter of which is prominent here)

I respect atheists a lot because they (mostly) actually do something good rather than bigotry in the name of god, but what I am seeing here is no different than extremism by other religious fanatics

‘Ban all prayers’ ‘My belief(s) are superior than others and anyone who doesn’t share my belief is dumb/terrorist etc etc’

They have turned atheism into some sort of cool shit for teenagers. ‘Oh you don’t have a bike are not atheist? LOL every cool kid has a bike doesn’t believe in your skydaddy lol, you are so gross and dirty and dumb’

I have argued a lot about this on lemmy, and I will admit some are in good faith, but most of them were just religious extremist, just without the religious part

Edit(s): Shit ton of typos 50th edit: Great example down where you see people claiming anyone who follows a religion is dumb🤷🏼‍♂️

MacStache ,

I’m pretty sure that’s against italian constitution. Freedom of religion is a fundamental freedom on EU level as well.

100_kg_90_de_belin ,

Municipalities in Italy have been pushing an anti-Muslim agenda since at least 9/11 as part of the right-wing identity politics agenda.

Mosques and cultural centers are seen as radicalization centers.

They know that any court would shoot down shit like this as unconstitutional, but Italian law is slow as molasses and their goal is signaling to xenophobes and racists.

FooBarrington ,

Who knew electing fascists would lead to fundamental freedoms of minorities being removed?

soulsource ,
@soulsource@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Who knew electing fascists would lead to fundamental freedoms being removed?

FIFY

mods_are_assholes ,

That’s nice, since when have fascists ever cared? I mean like in all of human history?

Bigmouse ,

They remember to care once the institutional boot of liberal democracy hovers above them.

jol ,

Isn’t this unconstitutional?

Confound4082 ,

It’s in italy, not the US.

CrowAirbrush ,

I don’t know a whole lot about Italy, but being European i’d think they must have a similar baseline as other European countries.

wewbull ,

Those laws mainly revolve around trade. There is the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) but that’s separate to EU membership. The relevent text is:

Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

  1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change her/his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest her/his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
  1. Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

So 9.2 probably applies but it’s subject to limitations in local law if they are deemed necessary to democracy and/or public safety. I doubt either of those could be reasonably argued, but they would have to be argued in court.

Cris_Color ,
@Cris_Color@lemmy.world avatar

If I understand correctly Italy also has a constitution…

Not sure why everyone is downvoting the original commenter. He seems to be correct that this is not supported by the Italian constitution. Kinda feels like we all ignored how italy’s government actually works in favor of going “actually this isn’t about America”… In a way that seems distinctly like it would only be possible from an American perspective 😅

Sincerely, an American who knows little to nothing about Italy’s government

mojorizer ,

Because the US is the only country with a constitution, amirite fellas?

Hadriscus ,

Italy has a constitution, as far as I know most countries do

…wikipedia.org/…/List_of_national_constitutions

jol ,

Who said anything about the US?

uis ,

How about ban all prayers?

Cosmicomical ,

How about we invest in properly educating children so we won’t need to worry about religion anymore?

uis ,

Sounds like communism. Or Navalny, but he is busy being corpse.

Tenthrow ,
@Tenthrow@lemmy.world avatar

What are you even trying to do with this comment?

uis ,

I mentioned communism for obvious reasons and mentioned Navalny because incerease in education funding was part of his programme. And that he was killed.

Hadriscus ,

Religion is not necessarily a lack of education, perhaps there is a correlation where you live but it’s quite insulting to suggest this is universal

SkippingRelax ,

It seems to be, on the planet I live on. It’s literally trying to explain things with magic and imaginary creatures.

Hadriscus ,

@SkippingRelax

You’re being willfully reductive… religion is not only a cosmogony, it is also (and often dominantly) a set of rites and laws. People have always been educated and religious. But then that varies locally and I don’t hope to invalidate your experience by stating that

Cosmicomical ,

I’m sure you’re a good person, and I don’t have much against religion as a concept, but on average it’s not a force that i consider positive for humanity, and religious establishment is very easily corrupted in every possible way.

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

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  • uis ,

    Ok. Then removing state funding and subsidies of all religions.

    cupcakezealot ,
    @cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    deleted_by_author

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  • Neon ,
    1. because they’re taxes and they should be used for the public good, not the good of a religious group
    2. because subsidies themselves are a flawed system. If it can’t compete in the Market on its own, shut it down.
    Hadriscus ,

    Wow. You went from 1.socialist to 2.liberal

    You’re gonna have to pick one…

    Neon ,

    “Taxes should not be wasted” is now socialist instead of liberal?

    and no, I am free to have my own Opinon on Stuff. I don’t have to “pick one Team”.

    MetaRobert ,

    On this point, I’m on your team.

    uis ,

    Secular state

    Hadriscus ,

    hmmm… no ? you understand that would hurt many people ?

    uis ,

    Ok. Then removing state funding and subsidies of all religions.

    iegod ,

    That’s reasonable and should be the default. No special treatment, but no special restrictions either. That’s only fair.

    IndustryStandard ,

    Are mosques and churches state funded in Italy?

    uis ,

    Dunno. But they are in Russia. Fuck Putin.

    stoly ,

    Yes but then you’re hurting everyone equally. This is actually a better idea than discriminating against a single group because it’s actually fair.

    mods_are_assholes ,

    anti-theists never care about the damage they inflict, as they are strong believers that the damages religion brings is infinitely worse than the atrocities they feel they must commit to eradicate it.

    It’s just another flavor of fanaticism that feels entitled to their violent rhetoric because ‘they see more clearly’.

    It’s the same euphoria any zealot feels.

    Alexstarfire ,

    Ahh yes, the atrocity of making it illegal. I’m not for making religion illegal but how is that in any way equal to even a portion of the violence caused by various religions?

    mods_are_assholes ,

    Religion isn’t required for atrocities to happen, some of the most brutal regimes in the world are staunch atheists.

    Do you have any idea what Russia did to the clergy after the revolution?

    Or the absolute inhumanity by which the Chinese government has treated Tibetan monks?

    All in the name of cleansing the world of ‘hateful religion’.

    It’s so easy to turn a blind eye to your own side’s revolting history and pretend you have clean hands.

    We’ve seen what happens when atheists take over, and it is ALWAYS followed by the blood of the faithful.

    Croquette ,

    Religion isn’t required, but history has shown over and over that it is inevitable that atrocities are committed in the name of religion.

    Why do religion get a pass, but a cult doesn’t? They operate the same way.

    mods_are_assholes ,

    but history has shown over and over that it is inevitable that atrocities are committed in the name of religion.

    Abusers will always seek positions of power to abuse from, the pedo elite in hollywood is proof of this, and only one of their kind was ever even brought up on charges in the last decade.

    Same with the military

    Same with the government

    You just blame religion exclusively because some edgelad youtuber told you to.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    euphoria

    Croquette ,

    Political leaders all around the world pushes for a religious ethno state.

    Religion are tax exempt in a lot of place, and use a lot of that money to lobby.

    Religion is a protected status in a lot of places.

    People get executed because they go against religion.

    Where I live, religious school exist, get funding from the state and are self governing.

    It is fucking appaling that religion isn’t put in the looney bin with the rest of the cults.

    You are right that power hungry people will try to get more power.

    But if religion is in power somewhere, history has shown again and again that it will inevitably end in atrocities. There is no way around it.

    Religion is regressive no matter what.

    Fuck religions, and fuck you.

    mods_are_assholes ,

    Political leaders all around the world pushes for a religious ethno state.

    Nope, but I do know Russia is trying really hard to be an atheist ethnostate.

    Religion are tax exempt in a lot of place, and use a lot of that money to lobby.

    1. Churches aren’t tax free because they are churches, they are tax free because they are charities and operate like every other charity except there is one less disclosure form a year they have to file, and quite a lot of churches choose to file that form for transparency. I know you love your talking point but it is simply incorrect.
    2. Churches are strictly prohibited from many political activities. Here is some stuff from the Freedom From Religion website:

    In order to remain tax-exempt under 501©(3), churches must abide by strict guidelines that prohibit election activity. The Code states in relevant part that 501©(3) organizations cannot “participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.” I.R.C. Sec. 501©(3). Thus, as a 501©(3) organization, churches are strictly forbidden from supporting or opposing a candidate for public office. To do so jeopardizes their tax-exempt status. Churches cannot engage in any of the following activities under the federal tax law:

    
    <span style="color:#323232;">Cannot endorse or oppose candidates for public office
    </span><span style="color:#323232;">Cannot make any communication—either from the pulpit, in a newsletter, or church bulletin—which expressly advocates for the election or defeat of a candidate for public office
    </span><span style="color:#323232;">**Cannot make expenditures on behalf of a candidate for public office or allow any of their resources to be used indirectly for political purposes (e.g., use their phones for a phone bank)**
    </span><span style="color:#323232;">Cannot ask a candidate for public office to sign a pledge or other promise to support a particular issue
    </span><span style="color:#323232;">Cannot distribute partisan campaign literature
    </span><span style="color:#323232;">Cannot display political campaign signs on church property
    </span>
    

    It is fucking appaling that religion isn’t put in the looney bin with the rest of the cults.

    Ok edgelad

    Croquette ,

    How many Christian groups donated to Trump’s PAC and various funds? As far as I know, churches in the States are still exempt from tax. So you can fuck right off because the laws aren’t enforced, so they are meaningless. Churches do lobby and they don’t lose their tax exemption status.

    Good job, you named one country that is trying to be an atheist ethnostate. Now look at what is currently happening in the US with the GOP and many middle eastern religious government, or in Africa, where LGBTQ+ people get prosecuted, stone to death or sentenced because they deviate from the religious stances.

    Continue on calling people edgelads, because you’ve got nothing else going on.

    jordanlund ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    Nothing wrong with the comment until the last line. Do not attack other users. Removed.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    euphoria

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    euphoria any zealot feels.

    Thank you in advance for making me feel good about calling your god skydaddy. Why don’t you pray to it to stop me?

    Hadriscus ,

    yea, it does strike similar

    mods_are_assholes ,

    How about grow up and get over the fact your mommy wouldn’t let you take your DS to church.

    uis ,

    Wow. Way to project.

    Thankfuly almost nobody goes to church here. Only 1% of country’s population visited church on christmas.

    mods_are_assholes ,

    I was already an adult before portable gaming was a thing, and frankly I enjoyed and still enjoy going to church.

    But I have seen literally hundreds of musguided young anti-theists just like you and the butthurt pattern is pretty recognizable.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    euphoria

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    A distant relative of my wife passed and it was a religious service. Because of that I the militant open atheist have attended services more times the past year than the average American theist.

    Got to love progress:)

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    euphoria

    Reddfugee42 ,

    I am stunned, stunned I tell you, that a culture famous for its misogyny is also backwards in nearly every other possible way.

    raspberriesareyummy ,

    now come on - don’t judge all Italians based on piece of shit Berlusconi and other fascists.

    fine_sandy_bottom ,

    I’m sure all the good Italians will start rioting any minute now.

    wieson ,

    The article clearly says that 8k people in a town of 30k took to the streets.

    AngryCommieKender ,

    That’s an impressive percentage. For comparison, 86.3 million US citizens protesting, which has never come close to happening, would be the same percentage as this little town.

    fine_sandy_bottom ,

    … but how would I know that, not having read the article? /s

    Yes, I commented without reading the article. Shame.

    DieguiTux8623 ,

    Why are the Guardian and the Observer becoming aware of this fact that happened a month ago?

    StrongHorseWeakNeigh ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • davepleasebehave ,

    in my city they are more magnanimous. putting unmovable barriers on the bench that makes it impossible to lie down upon.

    uis ,

    They just hate fat

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t understand where cities expect homeless people to go. All sleep out in cornfields?

    reagansrottencorpse ,

    The expect them to become slave labor in our for profit prison industry. 💅

    Demdaru ,

    Homeless shelters. If there’s a problem, it’s either:

    • Homeless person prefers alcohol over shelter
    • Homeless person prefers narcotisc over shelter
    • Homeless person likes being homeless and is parasite

    Please do not question it with points like shelters being full, alcohol and narcotics addicitions and not something you can just drop or people rarely choosing to be homeless out of their own volition. It’s all their fault.

    Cause “I say so”.

    ShunkW ,

    In my city, there was a homeless encampment by the river, under an overpass. Not bothering anyone. Local police went in without warning. Instead of just moving them along, which is already bad enough, they literally cut up tents, poured out food and water supplies, and then arrested several of them for various bullshit reasons when questioned.

    iamericandre ,

    The priest at the church my mom used to work at did the same thing with the bus stop benches an Eagle Scout built because of the same reason.

    wewbull ,

    As opposed to the benches that are purposely designed so you can’t lie on them. You see those all over the place under the guise of modern design language.

    https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/d45e99f0-8ec2-44e5-9a92-5a3bbd21c210.webp

    AngryCommieKender ,

    Not just benches. Hostile Architecture is all over the place.

    mods_are_assholes ,

    Well, modern design language includes a fucktonne of synonyms for ‘social violence’

    Maybe we need to start getting crews to go around with crowbars and remove these human-hateful expressions of the owner class’s power.

    FartsWithAnAccent ,
    @FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

    Bigotry aside, that seems like a wildly unenforceable law: What are they going to do? Go house to house to make sure people aren’t praying the wrong way?

    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    Muslims often have massive group prayer, it's about outlying public participation for one specific religious group.

    fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    The thing is that these group prayers can be conducted literally anywhere as long as it’s clean, so this law literally does nothing except openly expressing hate

    theinspectorst ,
    @theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

    I mean, bigotry and unenforceability aside, it's also pretty unambiguously illegal.

    Italy is a signatory to the ECHR which creates an explicit right to privacy (Article 8) and freedom of religion (Article 9).

    The Italian constitution itself also specifies a right to religious equality before the law (Article 8).

    hydrospanner ,

    Yeah that was gonna be my question: does Italy not have any legal mechanism in place that would be the functional equivalent of the US’s supremacy clause?

    Like…not saying shit like this isn’t attempted all the time in deeply conservative areas of the US, but in most cases where the far right leadership has even a shred of strategic thinking, they often don’t even attempt to pass or enforce laws like this because it’ll trigger immediate challenge in the courts, the challenge will be 100% taken up and the decision will come down against them (since even in a conservative court, the only thing they hate more than ruling in favor of “liberal” causes is any ruling that would limit the court’s power in the future), and at that point there’s a permanent legal precedent in the books, against the repression they’d like to carry out.

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    That’s exactly the same in Italy, freedom of religion is constitutionally protected. So either there’s something the article is not reporting, ie they are forbidding praying on the pavements of the street blocking the pedestrian circulation (which I promise you does happen), or the ban will simply be vetoed by the court.

    Klear ,

    If only there was a way to find out.

    wewbull ,

    Normally these things are about the call to prayer, not the actual praying. This does seem to be being reported as the actual praying though.

    Public praying in areas which cause obstruction could potentially be justified under the public safety exception of the ECHR.

    BreakDecks ,

    Not defending this at all, but the ban only covers praying at “cultural centers”, which I assume doesn’t include people’s private residences.

    They truly could enforce against public Islamic worship illegal, depending on how broadly “cultural centers” is defined, and I expect fascists to define it to cover all of public life.

    FartsWithAnAccent ,
    @FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

    Still sounds unenforceable and, while I’m not familiar with Italy’s legal system, probably illegal.

    Jaysyn ,
    @Jaysyn@kbin.social avatar

    Christofascists are gonna fash.

    TakiMinase ,

    Abraham hates everyone but mostly his children.

    redcalcium ,

    The decision to ban burkini is weird. You can’t swim nude on Italy’s beaches, but can’t swim fully clothed either?

    Hubi ,

    I can see how banning the Burkini in indoor pools makes sense from a hygienic perspective, but banning them on public beaches is just to take something enjoyable away from a specific group of people.

    Akasazh ,
    @Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

    How is burkini different from a swimming suit that would warrant banking them from indoor pools?

    Hubi ,

    You usually use the public shower before entering the pool and wearing a burkini in there kinda defeats the point. For the same reason you’re not allowed to wear anything other than regular swimwear.

    mmcintyre ,

    I don’t understand how wearing a burkini defeats the point of the shower. A burkini is swimwear.

    stevecrox ,

    The shower before a pool is to ensure people aren't entering the pool coated in dirt (e.g. sweat, hair, dead skin, etc..).

    The chemicals in a pool are designed to bind to that dirt and kill any bacteria introduced.

    There is a limit to the chemicals you can add to a pool (before it hurts humans) and once the amount has activated you need to drain the pool and refill it.

    Swimming pools hold crazy amounts of water which is also really expensive to heat up, so pools want to do that as little as possible.

    Clothing interfers with cleaning your body, so people entering near fully clothed (e.g. like a Burkina) will likely introduce more dirt into the pool.

    That translates into increased costs for swimming pools or pools which maintain the old schedule and just operate unsafely.

    This is all based on owning a hot tub and learning how to maintain it.

    Hopefully this also explains why it doesn't matter people enter the sea fully clothed

    Nighed , (edited )
    @Nighed@sffa.community avatar

    I’m not sure they ever empty most pools do they? They just continuously filter the water and keep adding chemicals?

    Cinner Bot ,

    He’s saying if someone adds 10 gallons of chlorine instead of 5 depending on amount of water the pool holds…

    Which shouldn’t happen. The guy owns a hot tub and is extrapolating that to pool water maintenance. You test the water every few days and see exactly where your levels are, and you know how much of what chemicals you need to add.

    Draining and heating pools has zero to do with a burkini. I think he just wants to argue the more fabric = more risk for contaminants introduced but went about it all the wrong way.

    mmcintyre ,

    Dude, I own a pool. What do you think a burkini is made out of, wool?

    NoIWontPickaName ,

    Yes? No? Maybe?

    Do you know what they’re made of?

    Without looking it up?

    Cause I sure as hell don’t

    mmcintyre ,

    Of course I looked it up, I’m not about to get on here and spew bullshit like some ignorant jerkwad.

    stevecrox ,

    You seem to be intentionally missing the point, but to reiterate..

    You shower before entering a pool to wash the dirt from your body off (your cleaning yourself).

    The more of your body covered the less effective that shower is.

    Ideally everyone would be naked in the shower, but there are probably outfits which increasingly render the shower less and less effective (e.g. speedos are better than shorts, etc .).

    It would not surprise me if a Burkina covered so much that the cleaning shower is rendered pointless

    WeirdGoesPro ,
    @WeirdGoesPro@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Is there any data to show that the amount of extra dirt potential is actually enough to worry about? Seems like only a fraction of the people using the pool would be wearing them, and the end result would be no worse than a child who sneezed a booger in it.

    Idk man, I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it all seems like thinly veiled bullshit to me (the law, not your words).

    Linkerbaan ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Everything here is wishful thinking. Ain’t nobody showering. People jump straight into the pool.

    A pool is a giant chlorine bath. If a shower right before jumping in would make a difference someone would need to not have showered for multiple days in advance. Which is a bigger problem by itself.

    It’s a giant non issue and you’re grasping at straws.

    Blue_Morpho ,

    The more of your body covered the less effective that shower is.

    No one showers before going in a public pool. You are right that it would be hygenic but it’s not done by anyone. Furthermore elderly wear long sleaved swimsuits that are functionally the same as a birkini. The only difference is the hair covering. A hair covering improves hygiene of a public pool by not having stray hairs floating around in the same way food workers are required to wear hair nets.

    Kusimulkku ,

    The sheer amount of fabric

    febra ,

    And what’s wrong with that? How does that make it unhygienic

    Kusimulkku ,

    It makes it more unhygienic because there’s more fabric that carries dirt, sweat, whatever

    Linkerbaan ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    People pee in the pool. I doubt a Burkini is going to make the hygienic difference.

    WeirdGoesPro ,
    @WeirdGoesPro@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    Hard agree. Pools are gross—anyone getting in one knows that and accepts it. I’ll take a lady in a burkini over an unattended child any day.

    crossmr ,

    France is pretty strict on that. Apparently men can't wear trunk style swimming bottoms. I'm not sure how they handle the burkini vs rashguard issue. I know rashguards are very popular with a lot of east asians because they worry about skin cancer.

    nifty ,
    @nifty@lemmy.world avatar

    It doesn’t make sense even from a hygiene perspective, it’s just racism because no one has banned surfers and their wetsuits.

    fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    Why us there so much muslim hate in Europe, I just don’t get it

    dependencyinjection ,

    Keeps us the hating the billionaires if we hate our fellow neighbours instead.

    bleistift2 ,

    We don’t have black people to discriminate against, so we make do with browns after discriminating against Jews fell out of fashion.

    Klear ,

    Hehe, fash-ion.

    GONADS125 , (edited )

    I think it just might have to do with the history of Islamic terror attacks…

    Such as the London bombings and bridge attack, Charlie Hebdo attack and the more recent stabbings in France, the Madrid train bombings which killed 193 people, the November 2015 Paris attack in which 130 were murdered, the 2016 Atatürk Airport attack in Turkey which left 45 dead, the 2016 Brussels bombings, just to name a few…

    I’m not suggesting that all or even most Islamic individuals are dangerous/terrorists. But there is a long, bloody history of Islamic extremism throughout Europe.

    I’m also not suggesting this justifies these bans in Italy whatsoever. I share this because it’s essential context to answer your question.

    theinspectorst ,
    @theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

    Muslim immigrants will have de facto faced as much (if not far more) hostility and prejudice before any of those events.

    What changed is that by the late 20th century, it had become politically unacceptable for right-wing parties to be perceived to be preying on overt racism towards their countries' brown-skinned citizens. But the War on Terror at the start of the 21st century created a new organising framework for nativists, whereby they could incite hatred against exactly the same brown-skinned people as before, but claim they were targeting them for their religion and not their skin colour. At the heart of it is still the same prejudice towards those who are different, it's just that the aspect of difference they choose to focus on today is more politically acceptable than the one they used to focus on.

    From the perspective of a brown-skinned Muslim immigrant, the ideological hoops the far-right jump through are likely irrelevant. These people were targeted by nativists before, and they get targeted by nativists now.

    GONADS125 ,

    I don’t disagree with you that it’s the product of racism and discrimination. But the terror attacks also fuel that hate.

    I can say the same thing about the consequences of my (US) country’s actions in the ‘war on terror.’ We’re the greatest contributing factor to the formation of ISIS. The casualties of our drone strikes alone (from Bush, Obama, and trump) were vastly civilian targets.

    Whether it’s politically/religiously motivated drone strikes on civilians, bombs in subways, or knife attacks, those actions spawn further fear, hate, intolerance, and extremism.

    Even though Italy is enacting racist policies/systems, they are able to gather support for/‘justify’ their actions due largely to the terror attacks throughout Europe.

    theinspectorst ,
    @theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

    It's more than just a product of it - it's the main factor.

    Over the last half century or so, the UK has experienced around 200 civilian deaths from Islamic terrorism and around 2,000 civilian deaths from Irish terrorism. Which community do you think the far-right in the UK tend to target?

    GONADS125 ,

    The ones with more melanin who look different. Too easy.

    moon ,

    There is a long, bloody history of Islamic extremism throughout Europe

    All of the attacks you listed happened within a 15 year timeframe. Which is not coincidentally the War on Terror timeframe. The discrimination is a lot older and the history of Islamic-Europe relations is a lot more nuanced than this. Far more relevant is the growing Far-right sentiment and anti-immigrant rhetoric across Europe.

    thisisbutaname ,

    Probably because there is a, perceived or cultivated, associations between Muslims and immigrants/people of color. And if you can’t outright punish someone based on “race” you go after the closest thing.

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    It’s not about skin colour, it’s about a way of life that is considered too radically different from their own: racists assume that muslims don’t want to integrate in Italian society, don’t follow the rules, abuse women with their hijabs and restrictions of movement (muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative). The native Muslim community is so minuscule in Italy that most Muslims are immigrants and speak other languages Italians don’t understand and makes them suspicious. They are concerned they could hide weapons under their tunics and hijabs. They don’t like that they cover their face and can’t be identified. It’s the lifestyle that they are bothered with, the skin colour is irrelevant. Italians were equally racist against Albanians in the 90ies because they were migrating in Italy by the thousands per day and were committing a lot of crimes, and Albanians are caucasians.

    fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative

    That’s actually not true, it is accepted that as long as one remains within the border of a city or county, there is need for a male to escort, the dispute is only about traveling outside of the city, some say it’s not necessary even then, some say it is necessary if they need to stay for a night, some say 3 nights, but this ‘can’t travel anywhere without male’ is completely wrong, this is might be stated by conservative(s) or maybe racists idk about that

    redcalcium , (edited )

    muslim women can’t drive nor go anywhere without a male relative

    This only true in middle east. Muslim women in south east asia don’t have this restriction and can do whatever they want like living alone, drive cars and hold any job, even leadership positions such as president and ministers.

    They are concerned they could hide weapons under their tunics and hijabs. They don’t like that they cover their face and can’t be identified.

    People can already conceal weapons beneath their jacket or suit, and covid basically normalize wearing masks in a lot of countries (not sure about Italy, is it normal for a person to walk around wearing masks there?).

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    Well, you are not obliged to follow it, you can’t use this as an excuse to take away their rights, I don’t like iPhones so I am going to ban them

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious , (edited )
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    What do you mean by ‘local culture’, if that means that one should stop practicing their religion, than that goes against your own constitution, if you want a place like that, then by all means, make a ‘local culture’ where everyone is only allowed to do what you or the majority wants, but then spell it out clearly in your book, then if someone goes against, they are at fault, but you put on the image of secularism and freedom of expression, and then deny one particular group this right

    And the word for these kind of people rhymes with ‘fascist’

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    Huh? Why does every discussion on muslim rights always start getting to Muhammad when y’all can’t justify your hypocrisy, how many modern day muslims have slaves or multiple wives/marry under the present age of consent in your country? The topic is why are you taking away their basic rights guaranteed to them by your country itself, if they do any of the things mentioned above in the present day, then that should be dealt separately

    Most muslims in western countries do far more crimes than locals

    Sauce?

    And arab countries are not a very great example in most things but one thing you can’t deny is that they have extremely low crime rates

    en.wikipedia.org/…/Crime_in_the_United_Arab_Emira…

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Saudi_Arabia

    A simple google search was enough from on your side, but since you don’t seem to be arguing in good faith, I put some wiki links for you

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    Can you provide me an English link? My browser can’t seem to be able to translate it

    Edit: nvm got it

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    That specifically talks about immigrants so that still doesn’t justify your prejudice, but since I can’t read the study i will refrain from saying anything

    But like I said if you believe it’s a problem then stop putting on the face of secularism and say that we will not entertain or give the rights to Muslims, then that’s a non issue, however you can’t simultaneously show that you don’t discriminate but then continue to do this kind of stuff

    fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    I can’t seem to find one that sorts by religion, can you provide me an English with link to the exact page?

    And if having a death penalty for being a rapist (I am not talk about minorities here) means a lot less no. of overall women raped, than I am more than happy tbh, the rules are strict but they also mean it is a lot lot safer, a person is gonna think twice before stealing your hard earned mac because of the fear of amputation (even though it’s not commonly done)

    My current city is suffering with a rape epidemic, and the reason for that is most people can get out of jail after a few months if they provide enough money or have enough power, if they just announce that death penalty, I’d be happy

    But we are drifting off topic here

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious , (edited )
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    Uh, maybe let’s say you are right, I can’t seem to make heads nor tails of the website, but if that’s the case, then I could see where you are coming from, but I still think that discriminating an entire religious group that makes up 25% of the world population for some bad actors is till racism

    Edit: but why are you guys burning quran anyway?

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s upto norway to decide whether they want to take Muslims or not, so I am not gonna debate that, and from here I guess you are right that maybe a particular group might be causing more problems than others, but then I think you should clearly spell it out and say muslims will be under extra scrutiny/different laws, don’t put on the image of secularism, which is my entire point

    It’s a legitimate criticism towards against an anti western religion that is getting increased footing in norway

    Okay I am genuinely curious here, I am not very well versed about what’s going on in norway but I surely haven’t heard anything major like muslims planning a coup and overthrowing the government, or is this something else I don’t know

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    Imho countries like Lebanon would probably have descended on civil war anyway because of lack of resources and brutal military intervention by guess who

    imo all religions, even christianity should be treated as a cult

    Here is the problem, conveniently made a comment about this just somewhere above in this post. lemmy.world/comment/7735405

    We both disagree on a very fundamental thing as you can see, I don’t see any point in continuing the discussion further, thanks for your time

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • fastandcurious , (edited )
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    horrible stuff happening in the name of religion

    Well I hate that too and Ig I should have clarified that, for me religion is something you study and own but only for yourself, not something you impose on others, sure you can share it, but forcing it, a big NO

    Science is comparatively not talked that much about in religion because it is not the main topic

    Talking about quran specifically, I don’t think you will find anything that goes against established science, because all of the things it talks about are not some rocket science but rather everyday observations (plants growing, embryos etc), and I know it’s far fetched, but if you study comparative religion, you wont find anything in it that completely contradicts common sense, or is forced or bigoted, some strict rules that might exist are part of what you accept when you accept a particular religion/take part in something, and since there is no compulsion, I don’t think there is a problem (quran.com/al-baqarah/256)

    And I would also like to add that that I understand your frustration, a tree is recognized by it’s fruit, you can’t say ‘Oh we are the worst kind of people, but my religion makes sense, see for yourself’, I think any sane person will respond somewhere along the lines ‘Why should I tolerate a tree whose products are rotten people like you’ or something idk I can’t seem to come up with anything better, so it’s something we all have to work on

    Edit: And a lot of strict rules about women aren’t that strict to begin with, they were just made so by overly conservative people or people who somewhat misunderstood some quranic verses based specifically about the prophets household, thankfully most people nowadays are of a much more moderate position (see for eg nouman ali khan, he is stated as conservative by a lot of people, but you could see his stance his much different than what the media and extremely conservative scholars might make you believe)

    So I will say, that your frustration is not completely unreasonable, but I will still maintain that taking someones basic right based on the fact that they are muslims is wrong, you can maybe put them in extra scrutiny when traveling or in public spaces, but stopping them from making a prayer? I don’t think so

    thisisbutaname ,

    Well, I thought I had a little insight on the matter since I’m Italian, guess I was wrong. /s

    Neon ,

    a lot of islamic terror attacks in the past have made people bitter.

    and i mean a lot of them

    moon ,

    So this is what Lemmy is doing now? “Why is there hatred of Muslims? Because they’re terrorists of frequent terror attacks.”

    Maybe you had all these terror attacks because you already had large groups of disaffected young men who didn’t feel like local society had anything for them and then became radicalised?

    In France, Muslims are half as likely to get a callback for a job than Christians with the same credentials.. So people already hated them. The terrorist attacks are just the latest excuse.

    Linkerbaan ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Right wing news outlets push Islamophobia hard. Same ones that love israel.

    If you want to keep the imperialism going it’s important that people hate whatever culture you’re trying to invade so your country can “save it from barbarism”.

    Daerun ,

    A lot of people is mentioning terror attacks, but I think that’s only part of it. The sexist nature of most muslim people living in Europe adds up to the mix. It seems to me that people in US are OK with burkini, just to mention something present in this article, but in Europe it is mostly seen as yet another sign of that sexism.

    fastandcurious ,
    @fastandcurious@lemmy.world avatar

    If there is one thing US has done well, it’s combating racism based on religion (Islamophobia, Anti-Semitism etc.) it still exists but much better than whatever the fuck is happening in Europe

    Faresh ,

    Consequences stemming from the destabilization of the middle east by foreign interference.

    BaardFigur ,

    deleted_by_author

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  • Faresh ,

    I never said that one or the other european country was or wasn’t involved, but consequences of an action aren’t limited to who enacts it or to who is acted upon. Some here in these comments mention terrorism. As an example of what I meant when I said “consequences stemming from the destabilization of the middle east by foregin interference”, I will mention the perception of Islam as a religion that endorses terrorism as some here in the comments did. Religious extremism has only become a problem due to foreign interference. One of the most well known groups, ISIS, only became as strong as they became due to the Iraq war.

    Yet they somehow have to take in muslim “refugees” and destabilize their own country in the process.

    I don’t know if you are expressing your disapproval of their immigration, but I feel like we shouldn’t put the two kinds of “destabilization” on equal levels. I’m sure the german and french natives can’t say they have anywhere near as many problems as the people arriving. I also must note a certain double standard here in that I don’t see anyone speaking against receiving ukrainian refugees, despite those countries not being blamed with what is happening in Ukraine.

    Cosmonauticus , (edited )

    Everyone likes to think of Italy as this land of the cultured and sophisticated with all the art, food, and architecture. But you’ll find a lot of Italians are as racist and ass backwards as a toothless Klan member in Mississippi.

    bruce965 ,
    @bruce965@lemmy.ml avatar

    As an Italian, I would say that’s not the case, not “a lot of Italians are racist”. I’ve had interactions with a few racist people of older generations, but I would say that they are the exception, thankfully.

    ABCDE ,

    You don’t have votes the way you do without endemic racism. Football still has a massive problem too.

    Cosmonauticus ,

    Would you say Italian football fans would be considered “a lot of Italians?”

    How about Serie A itself?

    Or Fratelli d’Italia party members and voters?

    Sometimes I think racism is nutrients for a lot of italians because they can not and will not stop with it

    Diplomjodler ,

    Frankly, that’s kind of hard to believe when your country has an openly fascist government

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    Fascism is not exclusively about racism. It’s a government style were the first victims are the citizens themselves. Racism is a component of it.

    subwoofer ,
    @subwoofer@lemmy.gockandgum.party avatar

    Damn, you must not live there, even in the south, were people are mostly ignorant, all I hear is complains about giorgia meloni and how shitty her government is 🥶🙏

    laughterlaughter ,

    But why did she win if not because of the majority of voting Italians wanted her? (which could be just half+1, I concede)

    This is why Trump won in 2016. Complacency. “Everyone in my state hates his guts. He must not be popular, then. I don’t even need to vote since Clinton will clearly win!”

    subwoofer ,
    @subwoofer@lemmy.gockandgum.party avatar

    Replied to the other person about this!

    Diplomjodler ,

    I don’t live in Italy, that’s correct. But if nobody likes the fascists, who voted for them, then?

    subwoofer ,
    @subwoofer@lemmy.gockandgum.party avatar

    The most likely reason is that most of the young people did not vote, leaving the vote to old people and middle aged ones.

    Though, by living in the south, I may have a different view of it, as most politicians hate our southern asses, including the meloni

    Edit: so, excluding most younger people, it leaves most of the northerns individuals ( who usually have more money invested in their infrastructure by governments ) and old people who are likely to vote for her. But it is still weird as literally anyone I talk to, not friends, just random people,vsay that they have not voted for her, even including some oldies that I know personally

    Edit 2: no but like seriously, literally no one likes her, especially after the shitshow she has been making with the bonuses

    laughterlaughter ,

    Just because they’re not young, doesn’t mean they don’t count. Doesn’t Europe have an aging population anyway? So if “old people” voted for her, and she won, then yes, Italians voted for her, period.

    But it is still weird as literally anyone I talk to, not friends, just random people,vsay that they have not voted for her, even including some oldies that I know personally

    Nope, not weird at all. That’s pretty much the definition of “living in a bubble.” I’m not saying this to insult you, OP. It’s just that that’s exactly what it is.

    I saw it in Venezuela. People thinking that Chavez was never going to win. Hell, even all the media was projecting the other candidate to win (they were all biased.) Oh, but who are these people? Middle class. If all you do is talk to other middle class people (because god forbid you talk to poor people!), then all you’ll hear is that no one will vote for Chavez. Except that the middle class is (was) just the 20% of the population, and the majority of people, 80% of them, were all in for Chavez. Chavez wins, and people like you get a surprised pikachu face.

    rustyfish ,
    @rustyfish@lemmy.world avatar

    My GF is Italian. That’s pretty much how she describes Italy.

    Hamartiogonic ,
    @Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz avatar

    As a land of culture and sophisticated art or a land of toothless racists? Or is it both at the same time?

    subwoofer ,
    @subwoofer@lemmy.gockandgum.party avatar

    I can say that it is both

    rustyfish ,
    @rustyfish@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes.

    Deestan ,

    Italy literally invented fascism.

    Hitler used to jerk off to pictures of Mussolini while building his movement.

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    Mussolini invented fascism, not Italy . Lots of Italians fell for it and supported it, the rest of the population - the vast majority - had to endure it and were straight up forced to live by its rules through persecution, imprisonment, violence, oppression, physical torture, displacement and homicide. Google the crimes of the Camicie Nere. Millions of Italians were killed because they wouldn’t accept the dictatorship. Look up the Partigiani fighters, they are the true heroes of the anti-fascist fight. Google the Fosse Ardeatine Massacre as one of many examples. Americans fancy themselves the saviours but they stepped in very very late when all the hard work had been done already by the Partigiani. Italy is historically a socialist country, so to say “Italy invented fascism” is just wrong.

    Cosmonauticus ,

    So if any italians are like Israel. A country with a rich history of strife and oppression but basically ignore it because it’s easier to blame others (in this case brown ppl/immigrants) as the cause of all their problems slowly sliding back to the ideals (in this case racism and fascism) they supposedly rejected.

    Sp00kyB00k ,

    You are missing the point. The Dutch has Nazi’s too, but also a lot of resistance. There is good and bad all around, even within people. If you want to label it as one thing, that would be shortsighted.

    laughterlaughter ,

    Was Mussolini part of the government when fascism was invented? Then yes. Italy invented fascism.

    It’s okay. It’s history.

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    What does that even mean…

    Giovanni Gentile and Benito Mussolini invented fascism. Indeed, it’s history. Whathttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/…/Italian_fascism

    laughterlaughter ,

    Correct. They were part of the government at the time, therefore Italy invented fascism.

    Just like Britain invented the first tank. Not “some dude in the government.”

    Blue_Morpho ,

    Millions of Italians were killed because they wouldn’t accept the dictatorship.

    100,000 max (45k combat. 45k pow camps) en.m.wikipedia.org/…/Italian_resistance_movement

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    Those are the Partigiani, but countless other Italians have been killed because they were against fascism, even before the Partigiani movement formed.

    iegod ,

    Mussolini invented fascism, not Italy

    If this is the case you’re gonna have to give back a lot of things that are attributed to “Italy”. I think it’s well understood what is meant when someone claims something is from a region/area/country. It was an Italian and it took a country to back it. It’s Italian.

    Gympie_Gympie_pie ,

    it took a country to back it

    So you don’t understand how dictatorship works, ok.

    laughterlaughter ,

    Not the point. That’s a huge red herring.

    MonkderZweite ,

    cultured and sophisticated

    Maybe french but not italian culture, no. Italian is more about passion. Them and spain are a typical southern climate culture to other europeans.

    maness300 ,

    Have you ever heard of the Renaissance?

    thetreesaysbark ,

    Lol the french.

    circuscritic ,

    “Everyone likes to think of Italy as this land of the cultured and sophisticated…”

    This is no big deal and it’s kinda funny, but really it just sounds like you thought that, and then were shocked when you learned otherwise lol.

    Because I honestly don’t know anyone who believes that. While I’m sure there are people who do, it’s not this massive common misconception that you’re claiming.

    Cosmonauticus ,

    No I’ve never been and don’t plan on going, mainly because of the racism and warnings from other black travelers. That being said outside of Europe the idea Italians are cultured, suave, and classy is definitely a thing. Europe in general is stereotyped that way.

    maness300 ,

    I know plenty of people who think that and agree with his assessment that most people view Italian culture as refined and sophisticated, just like the French.

    fine_sandy_bottom ,

    Anecdotal but my impression is that most people feel like Italy is a culturally sophisticated place and don’t realise there’s a lot of racism and prejudism.

    Cosmicomical ,

    This tells more about you than about Italians

    VelvetStorm ,

    I have never once in my life thought of Italy as being sophisticated. I feel like they definitely use to be but havnt been in a long time.

    maness300 ,

    Totally agreed. There’s a reason why italians sided with fucking hitler during world war 2.

    They are insecurity incarnate.

    khannie ,
    @khannie@lemmy.world avatar

    Even if we fully ignore that it was Mussolini, by that broken logic modern Germans are Nazis which they so obviously aren’t.

    I’m not saying this situation isn’t a shambles but trying to say all Italians are insecurity incarnate is honestly stupid. They just aren’t. Most Italians are lovely.

    laughterlaughter ,

    OP didn’t say “Today’s Italy” sided with hitler. Most Italians are indeed lovely, yes. But your comment is a strawman.

    subwoofer ,
    @subwoofer@lemmy.gockandgum.party avatar

    Nah, op clearly meant present day Italians, the comment you are replying to is not a straw man

    laughterlaughter ,

    Oh. Okay.

    TakiMinase ,

    The Roman Empire tried to genocide the celts and many others. It’s in their blood.

    Gnugit ,

    They also make very low quality export olive oil.

    stoly ,

    They actually make really good quality olive oil but “water” it down with cheap filler oils and export an inferior product because that’s safer and more profitable than trafficking drugs.

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