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dsilverz ,
@dsilverz@thelemmy.club avatar

It’s the same claim when tools like Integromat, WayScript, PureData, vvvv and other VPLs (Visual Programming Languages) started to get some hype. I once worked for a company that strongly believed they’d “retire the need for coding”, and my ex-boss was so confident and happy about that… Although VPLs were a practical thing, time is the ruler of truth, and for every dev-related job vacancy I see, they ask some programming language, the written ones (JS, PHP, Python, Ruby, Lua, and so on).

Because if you look closely, deep inside, voila, there’s code in anything that is claimed to be no-code! Wow, could anyone imagine that? 🤯 /sarcasm

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

It’ll replace brain dead CEOs before it replaces programmers.

ikidd , (edited )
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

I’m pretty sure I could write a bot right now that just regurgitates pop science bullshit and how it relates to Line Go Up business philosophy.

Edit: did it, thanks ChatJippity


<span style="color:#323232;">def main():
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    # Check if the correct number of arguments are provided
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    if len(sys.argv) != 2:
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        print("Usage: python script.py <PopScienceBS>")
</span><span style="color:#323232;">        sys.exit(1)
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    # Get the input from the command line
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    PopScienceBS = sys.argv[1]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    # Assign the input variable to the output variable
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    LineGoUp = PopScienceBS
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    # Print the output
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    print(f"Line Go Up if we do: {LineGoUp}")
</span><span style="color:#323232;">if __name__ == "__main__":
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    main()
</span>
IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar 

<span style="color:#323232;">if lineGoUp {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">    CollectUnearnedBonus()
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">} else {
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">   FireSomePeople()
</span><span style="color:#323232;">   CollectUnearnedBonus()
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">}
</span>
ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

I think we need to start a company and commence enshittification, pronto.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

This company - employee owned, right?

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

I’m just going to need you to sign this Contributor License Agreement assigning me all your contributions and we’ll see about shares, maybe.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

Yay! I finally made it, I’m calling my mom.

Vipsu ,
@Vipsu@lemmy.world avatar

As software developer I am not scared that A.I will take away our jobs. What I am scared is that at that point A.I good enough to do most jobs out there.

All it really needs to do is replace large chunk of the service industry to do wreck massive havock in our society.

sunzu2 ,

Connecting human existence to their labour has a designed defect

spyd3r ,
@spyd3r@sh.itjust.works avatar

I guess the programmers should start learning how to mine coal…

assembly ,

We will all be given old school Casio calculators a d sent to crunch numbers in the bitcoin mines.

suburban_hillbilly ,

Guys selling something claim it will make you taller and thinner, your dick bigger, your mother in law stop calling, and work as advertised.

jubilationtcornpone ,

I seem to recall about 13 years ago when “the cloud” was going to put everyone in IT Ops out of a job. At least according to people who have no idea what the IT department actually does.

“The cloud” certainly had an impact but the one thing it definitely did NOT do was send every system and network admin to the unemployment office. If anything it increased the demand for those kinds of jobs.

I remain unconcerned about my future career prospects.

MeekerThanBeaker ,

Yes… because there will be users who will always refuse to fix their own computer issues. Even if there’s an easy solution at their fingertips. Many don’t even try to reboot. They just tell IT to fix it… then go get coffee for a half hour.

MangoPenguin ,
@MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I wonder how they think that’s possible, the attempts I’ve made at having an “AI” produce working code have failed spectacularly.

lemmyvore ,

If you go forward 12 months the AI bubble will have burst. If not sooner.

Most companies who bought into the hype are now (or will be soon) realizing it’s nowhere near the ROI they hoped for, that the projects they’ve been financing are not working out, that forcing their people to use Copilot did not bring significant efficiency gains, and more and more are realizing they’ve been exchanging private and/or confidential data with Microsoft and boy there’s a shitstorm gathering on that front.

Nighed ,
@Nighed@sffa.community avatar

If you have the ability to build an AI app in house - holy shit shit that can improve productivity. Copilot itself for office use… Meh so far.

tal , (edited )

That’d be an exciting world, since it’d massively increase access to software.

I am also very dubious about that claim.

In the long run, I do think that AI can legitimately handle a great deal of what humans do today. It’s something to think about, plan for, sure.

I do not think that anything we have today is remotely near being on the brink of the kind of technical threshold required to do that, and I think that even in a world where that was true, that it’d probably take more than 2 years to transition most of the industry.

I am enthusiastic about AI’s potential. I think that there is also – partly because we have a fair number of unknowns unknowns, and partly because people have a strong incentive to oversell the particular AI thing that they personally are involved with to investors and the like – a tendency to be overly-optimistic about the near-term potential.

I have another comment a while back talking about why I’m skeptical that the process of translating human-language requirements to machine-language instructions is going to be as amenable as translating human-language to human-consumable output. The gist, though, is that:

  • Humans rely on stuff that “looks to us like” what’s going on in the real world to cue our brain to construct something. That’s something where the kind of synthesis that people are doing with latent diffusion software works well. An image that’s about 80% “accurate” works well enough for us; the lighting being a little odd or maybe an extra toe or something is something that we can miss. Ditto for natural-language stuff. But machine language doesn’t work like that. A CPU requires a very specific set of instructions. If 1% is “off”, a software package isn’t going to work at all.

  • The process of programming involves incorporating knowledge about the real world with a set of requirements, because those requirements are in-and-of-themselves usually incomplete. I don’t think that there’s a great way to fill in those holes without having that deep knowledge of the world. This “deep knowledge and understanding of the world” is the hard stuff to do for AI. If we could do that, that’s the kind of stuff that would let us create a general artificial intelligence that could do what a human does in general. Stable Diffusion’s “understanding” of the world is limited to statistical properties of a set of 2D images; for that application, I think that we can create a very limited AI that can still produce useful output in a number of areas, which is why, in 2024, without producing an AI capable of performing generalized human tasks, we can still get some useful output from the thing. I don’t think that there’s likely a similar shortcut for much by way of programming. And hell, even for graphic arts, there’s a lot of things that this approach just doesn’t work for. I gave an example earlier in a discussion where I said “try and produce a page out of a comic book using stuff like Stable Diffusion”. It’s not really practical today; Stable Diffusion isn’t building up a 3D mental model of the world, designing an entity that stably persists from image to image, and then rendering that. It doesn’t know how it’s reasonable for objects and the like to interact. I think that to reach that point, you’re going to have to have a much-more-sophisticated understanding of the world, something that looks a lot more like what a human’s looks like.

    The kind of stuff that we have today may be a component of such an AI system. But I don’t think that the answer here is going to be “take existing latent diffusion software and throw a lot of hardware at it”. I think that there’s going to have to be some significant technical breakthroughs that have not happened yet, and that we’re probably going to spend some time heading down dead-end approaches before we get to that. There’s probably going to be a lot of hard R&D before we get there, and that’s going to take time.

dinckelman ,

I’ll take “things business people dont understand” for 100$.

No one hires software engineers to code. You’re hired to solve problems. All of this AI bullshit has 0 capability to solve your problems, because it can only spit out what it’s already stolen from seen somewhere else

HakFoo ,

It can also throw things against the wall with no concern for fitness-to=purpose. See “None pizza, left beef”.

DirigibleProtein ,

It will be interesting to find out if these words will come back and haunt them.

  • “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers”.
  • “640K ought to be enough for anybody.”
Nighed , (edited )
@Nighed@sffa.community avatar

I’m going to call BS on that unless they are hiding some new models with huge context windows…

For anything that’s not boilerplate, you have to type more as a prompt to the AI than just writing it yourself.

Also, if you have a behaviour/variable that is similar to something common, it will stubbornly refuse to do what you want.

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Have you ever attempted to fill up one of those monster context windows up with useful context and then let the model try to do some useful task with all the information in it?

I have. Sometimes it works, but often it’s not pretty. Context window size is the new MHz, in terms of misleading performance measurements.

floofloof OP ,

I find there comes a point where, even with a lot of context, the AI just hasn’t been trained to solve the problem. At that point it will cycle you round and round the same few wrong answers until you give up and work it out yourself.

Nighed ,
@Nighed@sffa.community avatar

I think that giving the LLM an API to access additional context and then making it more of an agent style process will give the most improvement.

Let it request the interface for the class your using, let it request the code for that extension method you call. I think that would solve a lot, but I still see a LOT of instances where it calls wrong class/method names randomly.

This would also require a lot more in depth (and language specific!) IDE integration though, so I forsee a lot of price hikes for IDEs in the near future!

Nighed ,
@Nighed@sffa.community avatar

To actually answer your question - yes, but the only times I actually find it useful is for tests, for everything else it’s usually iffy and takes longer.

Intelligently loading the window could be the next useful trick

floofloof OP ,

I’m curious about what the “upskilling” is supposed to look like, and what’s meant by the statement that most execs won’t hire a developer without AI skills. Is the idea that everyone needs to know how to put ML models together and train them? Or is it just that everyone employable will need to be able to work with them? There’s a big difference.

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I know how to purge one off of a system, does that count?

CarbonatedPastaSauce ,

The only people who would say this are people that don’t know programming.

LLMs are not going to replace software devs.

tias ,

AI as a general concept probably will at some point. But LLMs have all but reached the end of the line and they’re not nearly smart enough.

homesweethomeMrL ,

“at some point” being like 400 years in the future? Sure.

Ok that’s probably a little bit of an exaggeration. 250 years.

li10 ,

LLMs have already reached the end of the line 🤔

I don’t believe that. At least from an implementation perspective we’re extremely early on, and I don’t see why the tech itself can’t be improved either.

Maybe it’s current iteration has hit a wall, but I don’t think anyone can really say what the future holds for it.

mashbooq ,

I’m not trained in formal computer science, so I’m unable to evaluate the quality of this paper’s argument, but there’s a preprint out that claims to prove that current computing architectures will never be able to advance to AGI, and that rather than accelerating, improvements are only going to slow down due to the exponential increase in resources necessary for any incremental advancements (because it’s an NP-hard problem). That doesn’t prove LLMs are end of the line, but it does suggest that additional improvements are likely to be marginal.

Reclaiming AI as a theoretical tool for cognitive science

Blue_Morpho ,

I can see the statement in the same way word processing displaced secretaries.

There used to be two tiers in business. Those who wrote ideas/solutions and those who typed out those ideas into documents to be photocopied and faxed. Now the people who work on problems type their own words and email/slack/teams the information.

In the same way there are programmers who design and solve the problems, and then the coders who take those outlines and make it actually compile.

LLM will disrupt the programmers leaving the problem solvers.

There are still secretaries today. But there aren’t vast secretary pools in every business like 50 years ago.

IsThisAnAI ,

It’ll have to improve a magnitude for that effect. Right now it’s basically an improved stack overflow.

homesweethomeMrL ,

I thought by this point everyone would know how computers work.

That, uh, did not happen.

VubDapple ,

Good take

Angry_Autist ,

No

Badabinski ,

I wrote a comment about this several months ago on my old kbin.social account. That site is gone and I can't seem to get a link to it, so I'm just going to repost it here since I feel it's relevant. My kbin client doesn't let me copy text posts directly, so I've had to use the Select feature of the android app switcher. Unfortunately, the comment didn't emerge unscathed, and I lack the mental energy to fix it due to covid brain fog (EDIT: it appears that many uses of I were not preserved). The context of the old post was about layoffs, and it can be found here: https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/12147

I want to offer my perspective on the Al thing from the point of view of a senior individual contributor at a larger company. Management loves the idea, but there will be a lot of developers fixing auto-generated code full of bad practices and mysterious bugs at any company that tries to lean on it instead of good devs. A large language model has no concept of good or bad, and it has no logic. happily generate string- templated SQL queries that are ripe for SQL injection. I've had to fix this myself. Things get even worse when you have to deal with a shit language like Bash that is absolutely full of God awful footguns. Sometimes you have to use that wretched piece of trash language, and the scripts generated are horrific. Remember that time when Steam on Linux was effectively running rm -rf /* on people's systems? I've had to fix that same type of issue multiple times at my workplace.

I think LLMs will genuinely transform parts of the software industry, but I absolutely do not think they're going to stand in for competent developers in the near future. Maybe they can help junior developers who don't have a good grasp on syntax and patterns and such. I've personally felt no need to use them, since spend about 95% of my time on architecture, testing, and documentation.

Now, do the higher-ups think the way that do? Absolutely not. I've had senior management ask me about how I'm using Al tooling, and they always seem so disappointed when I explain why I personally don't feel the need for it and what feel its weaknesses are. Bossman sees it as a way to magically multiply IC efficiency for nothing, so absolutely agree that it's likely playing a part in at least some of these layoffs.

Basically, I think LLMs can be helpful for some folks, but my experience is that the use of LLMs by junior developers absolutely increases the workload of senior developers. Senior developers using LLMs can experience a productivity bump, but only if they're very critical of the output generated by the model. I am personally much faster just relying on traditional IDE auto complete, since I don't have to change from "I'm writing code" mode to "I'm reviewing code mode."

mashbooq ,

The one colleague using AI at my company produced (CUDA) code with lots of memory leaks that required two expert developers to fix. LLMs produce code based on vibes instead of following language syntax and proper coding practices. Maybe that would be ok in a more forgiving high level language, but I don’t trust them at all for low level languages.

APassenger ,

Will there even be a path for junior level developers?

felbane ,

The problem with this take is the assertion that LLMs are going to take the place of secretaries in your analogy. The reality is that replacing junior devs with LLMs is like replacing secretaries with a network of typewriter monkeys who throw sheets of paper at a drunk MBA who decides what gets faxed.

lemmyuser100002 ,

Wrong, this is also exactly what people selling LLMs to people who can’t code would say.

APassenger ,

It’s this. When boards and non-tech savvy managers start making decisions based on a slick slide deck and a few visuals, enough will bite that people will be laid off. It’s already happening.

There may be a reckoning after, but wall street likes it when you cut too deep and then bounce back to the “right” (lower) headcount. Even if you’ve broken the company and they just don’t see the glide path.

It’s gonna happen. I hope it’s rare. I’d argue it’s already happening, but I doubt enough people see it underpinning recent lay offs (yet).

Zexks ,

That’s not what was said. He specifically said coding.

assembly ,

The one thing that LLMs have done for me is to make summarizing and correlating data in documents really easy. Take 20 docs of notes about a project and have it summarize where they are at so I can get up to speed quickly. Works surprisingly well. I haven’t had luck with code requests.

Angry_Autist ,

I don’t know if you noticed but most of the people making decisions in the industry aren’t programmers, they’re MBAs.

TheGrandNagus ,

24 months from now? Unlikely lol

lurch ,

15 years at least. probably more like 30. and it will be questionable, because it will use a lot of energy for every query and a lot of resources for cooling

otp ,

it will use a lot of energy for every query and a lot of resources for cooling

Well, so do coders. Coffee can be quite taxing on the environment, as can air conditioning!

geogle ,
@geogle@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sure they’ll hold strong to that prediction in 24 mo. It’s just 24 more months away

A7thStone ,

We’ll have full self driving next year.

geogle ,
@geogle@lemmy.world avatar

This is the year of the Linux Desktop

AceFuzzLord ,

I remember a little over a decade ago while I was still in public school hearing about super advanced cars that had self driving were coming soon, yet we’re hardly anywhere closer to that goal (if you don’t count the Tesla vehicles running red lights incidents).

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