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glowie ,
@glowie@h4x0r.host avatar

Can’t believe I wasted brainspace reading that garbage

shortwavesurfer ,

Bitcoin has the right idea, but did not execute it properly, primarily because it was the first and technology has improved and it has not. Monero is actually doing what bitcoin was meant to do and acting as a transactional currency, medium of exchange, and store of value.

smallpatatas OP ,

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

True bitcoiners 🤝 no-coiners “Bitcoin should be illegal”

Mubelotix ,
@Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

This is 100% wrong

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

Look at my totally stable store of currency bro, trust me bro, this is totally useful as a means of exchange and you can trust in its future value bro, just believe me.

https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/223ea12f-a80b-4dca-a733-c7acc38c8672.png

shortwavesurfer ,

Now, overlay that price chart with a transaction count chart averaged out over say 90 days and what you will notice is that big spike up to 400 and above was at basically no transaction volume which makes it seem more like that was hype. Looking at the price chart over shorter timeframes such as a year will show you that the transaction count is actually increasing now and the price is staying quite stable.

YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH ,

I don’t know if this argument is the winner you thought it was. A currency where people aren’t using it as a means of exchange because of price fluctuations is a failure.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

No, no, hear them out. It’s actually super great that when you walk into the grocery store the loaf of bread is $1.50, and by the time you walk to the bread aisle it’s $0.72, and by the time you walk to the cashier it’s $2.10. This is actually super great, because there’s also a medium country’s worth of electricity being consumed to enable that.

shortwavesurfer ,

When i pick up a loaf of bread its 0.012, and when i check out its 0.012. Currentsies are going to shift against each other. The exact same thing would occur if you walked into a store in, say, Germany and handed them dollars. Also, do you mind telling me how much energy the banking system uses to run their equipment, build their buildings, have their employees come to their branches, move armored trucks full of cash, etc. Like, I can understand the power use thing being an issue. But if you want to go after something that would make more of a difference, how about figuring out thermal bricks or something for industries making glass? Which produces a hell of a lot more greenhouse gases than crypto mining does. Industrial processes are a huge polluter. Or how about the global transportation system?

my_hat_stinks ,

This is the poster child for whataboutisn. You literally just argued that it’s okay for cryptocurrencies to pollute and waste energy because it takes energy to make glass too.

shortwavesurfer ,

It fluctuates with an I narrow range, and as it gets more adoption, that range is continuing to narrow. As a matter of fact, I sell items for Monero and I keep my prices completely stable and people do come to buy things. xmrbazaar.com/user/shortwavesurfer2009/. I have my prices set in such a way that they will stay stable until at least December 1st of 2024 at which time I will update them if need be.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

“Ignore the glaring flaws and look only at the parts I tell you to” is great fiscal policy and inspires a lot of trust. You nerds are basically sending PGP emails to each other and pretending it’s money. It isn’t — it’s literally nothing.

shortwavesurfer ,

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

No, because the rest of us have to deal with the environmental destruction wrought by your virtual paperclip maximizer. it affects everyone.

shortwavesurfer ,

Fine, go after the industries that are doing more, such as industrial processing for making glass and other things that require high temperatures, the global transportation industry, etc.

cygnus ,
@cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

Why would I “go after” an industry producing something useful, rather than grifters powering GPUs to do absolutely nothing of value? We can get to the glass industry once we’ve culled the useless garbage first.

shortwavesurfer ,

Monero is CPU based. And actually we are providing something of value in that we are providing a private currency not controlled by any government where no government can tell you you can or cannot use it because they have no power to stop you from doing so. Now, whether you believe that is something we need in this world or not is a different value set.

alcoholicorn ,

no government can tell you you can or cannot use it because they have no power to stop you from doing so

I mean they can kick down your door and seize or hack your PC. That threat is enough to stop most people, making the currency pretty useless in countries that have cracked down on it.

shortwavesurfer ,

If the goons are kicking down your door, there’s not a whole lot you’re going to be able to do to stop them from doing so, because they will find something against you. On average, the typical US adult commits three felonies per day. So if they want you, they will get you. Obviously, that’s done by making more and more things illegal to make more and more people criminals.

explodicle ,

Why should we care what they go after? If they regulate or tax mining, that’s just a difficulty adjustment that won’t impact our security budget.

There’s a Pareto improvement to be had here.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Monero is mining-resistant, which means mining farms are going to be unprofitable. The people mining Monero are regular enthusiasts, so that should mean there’s less wasted energy from a ton of people competing over the same number of coins. Oh, and Monero has no maximum block-size, which keeps transaction costs low (which means even less competition over mining).

I don’t know of a good way to estimate Monero electricity usage, but I’m guessing it’s way less than Bitcoin has per transaction, or at least it would be if they had a similar number of transactions. Monero is a lot more complex currency (so one transaction will actually spawn a bunch of “fake” transactions), but that mining-resistance is doing some work.

Here’s Monero’s webpage, which has some discussion on energy usage, which I think I’ve summarized well above.

0x0 ,

Your comment costs data-center energy, please help save the environment by not commenting.

parpol ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    cygnus ,
    @cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

    Creeping my posts form days ago? That isn’t weird or anything. I’m guessing you’re trying to make a point in there somewhere, but you’ll have to point it out to me.

    parpol ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    cygnus ,
    @cygnus@lemmy.ca avatar

    I didn’t check out any of your posts. I was making a point about the “safe and stable” stockmarket vs the “volatile and dangerous” cryptomarket.

    We’re talking about currencies, not stocks, but I’m not surprised that crypto bros think their imaginary coins an somehow both appreciate in value like an investment while also being stable enough to use as a currency.

    cacheson ,

    Monero will not scale. All attempts at "improved" altcoins have just sacrificed scalability in exchange for features that look good in the short term to investors that don't know any better.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    There are people dedicated specifically to Monero scaling and they are a hell of a lot smarter than me and do not see any reason why it cannot be scaled properly. Look at some talks by Articmine

    cacheson ,

    I'm not interested in spending a ton of time on this, but I did go and watch this short interview with him about scaling misconceptions.

    Wasn't convincing at all. For one, the guy comes across as kind of dishonest. Not scammer-level dishonest, but more like a politician. The main thing though is that he's just a big-blocker, which is just a total dead end. Having everyone store every single transaction that was ever made until the end of time is just not realistic.

    In order to scale to any globally significant number of users, a cryptocurrency needs a second layer to aggregate transactions, such as Lightning. Monero seems to have nothing in this regard beyond "However, academic and industry research is ongoing and promising in this area."

    they are a hell of a lot smarter than me

    You should not be investing money in something based on this level of understanding, and you definitely should not be advocating it to others. Scaling is an existential problem for cryptocurrencies. Their utility is based on their monetary value, and their monetary value is based on investor assessment of their future utility. Without the ability to scale, there will be no growth in utility, which means no investment other than temporary dumb money, which becomes a vicious cycle.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    While I personally agree that we should not store all transactions for all time, our storage capability is going to get exponentially better. We are able to store data in 3D discs with lasers now and can store petabytes in a single disc the size of your typical old CD-ROM and even store data in DNA if we wish. These obviously aren’t going to be included in your desktop computer anytime in the near future, but they do currently exist and show that storage will not be a problem for a very very long time.

    cacheson ,

    Scalability isn't quite as simple as "how much data can a well-off enthusiast from a developed country store". You need to consider the behavior of your lowest common denominator users.

    You want as many users as possible to run fully-verifying nodes, rather than SPV ("simplified payment verification") nodes that can be tricked by a malicious miner. The more transactions are being done through SPV nodes, the more potential payoff there is for an attacker, and the more resources they can dedicate to an attack.

    Further, if your number of full nodes gets low enough, it becomes feasible for state actors to track down and compromise the remaining node operators. At that point, you may as well just be using a centralized, government approved payment system instead.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    You should not be investing money in something based on this level of understanding

    IMO, you shouldn’t be investing in cryptocurrencies or any currencies for that matter. Currencies should be used, not hoarded with the expectation of gain. If you’re buying cryptocurrencies as an investment, you’ve already lost.

    Where cryptocurrencies have value is as a medium of exchange. In many parts of the world, the central bank isn’t trustworthy and end up causing runaway inflation, such as in Venezuela, Argentina, and Turkey. This is because there is a lot of political gains to be had by manipulating the currency to make things appear better than they are. The US hasn’t had this issue largely because the Federal Reserve is largely immune to politics (they’re appointed by the executive and confirmed by the Senate, but that’s about it). But that’s not guaranteed to always be the case. Board members can be removed, and the President and Senate can theoretically pack the Federal Reserve board in the same way as packing the Supreme Court.

    The great thing about cryptocurrencies is that you don’t need to trust anyone to use it. Here are the parties involved in a transaction:

    • you
    • the other party
    • miners verifying blocks
    • source code maintainers

    Each of those has checks in place. You and the other party don’t need to exchange secrets, only information that is totally acceptable to be shared (pub keys, not private keys). With something like Monero, you can even make a separate key for each transaction if you’d like. Miners compete against each other to validate transactions accurately, and if a miner tries to cheat, their results are excluded. Source code maintainers work in the open, so researchers (or you!) can and do look at the code.

    With fiat, you have to trust the central bank and banking regulators. If you don’t trust your central bank, you’re SOL.

    The cost of using a cryptocurrency vs a central bank is that lack of central oversight, meaning you’ll see more variation in valuations. However, this should smooth out as more people use it as a currency (so more even inflows vs outflows). There isn’t something like the US dollar or Euro’s target 2% inflation rate, so we could see deflation instead of inflation if cryptocurrencies catch on or if people flee to it from investments in a bear market or something.

    The value of a cryptocurrency is the demand for that currency. Just like fiat, it has value if we believe it has value. Fiat currencies aren’t based on anything more than supply and demand for that currency, just like crytocurrencies, with the big distinction that valuations also take into account trust in the backing back (whereas cryptocurrencies include trust in the network and code).

    cacheson ,

    IMO, you shouldn't be investing in cryptocurrencies or any currencies for that matter. Currencies should be
    used, not hoarded with the expectation of gain. If you're buying cryptocurrencies as an investment, you've already lost.

    Cryptocurrencies literally cannot function without speculative investment. Even in the absence of formal investors, someone has to be the first person to accept the tokens in exchange for something of value, in hopes that they will have value of their own in the future. Until then, the tokens are unusable.

    Further, the market cap and liquidity of a cryptocurrency impose practical limits on what it can be used for. You can't very well conduct a billion dollar transaction through a cryptocurrency that has a market cap in the millions. Investment raises the market cap, "unlocking" these higher-value use cases. Conversely, loss of investor confidence will reduce the market cap, and effectively reduce the utility of the coin.

    This is why ability to scale is so important. The current market values of Bitcoin and the various alts are based far more on speculative investment than they are on usage. Those investors believe that the coins will see far more usage (and have far more natural demand) in the future than they do today. If that turns out not to be the case due to an inability to scale, investors will start to flee, and the vicious cycle will start.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    I don’t think anyone needs to exchange cryptocurrencies for “something of value” for the investment to work, they just have to believe the currency itself holds value, where value is defined by supply vs demand. If enough people think others will believe it has value, then demand will increase. It’s basically how MLMs work, but it can sustain itself once it reaches a sufficient number of investors.

    Adding transactions for real goods and services in the mix expands the reach of the currency and can stabilize demand a bit once the initial speculators have lost interest. So yeah, there’s absolutely a motivation for speculators to try to get others on-board. But it’s not necessarily a requirement, as we can see with other collector fads like Beanie Babies or Baseball Cards (the only value is in trading with other collectors), but just changed to be digital (NFTs are the strongest analogue).

    However, just because speculators are rewarded if you use a cryptocurrency for transactions doesn’t mean you should avoid it. Use it if it provides value to you. The value proposition is:

    • lower transaction fees, especially for international transactions - Bitcoin fails for small local transactions, but works well for large and international transactions; the lightning network helps for small transactions, and other currencies exist for small transactions as well
    • privacy - banks can and do sell your data, and governments may be interested in your transactions as well; you can’t use cash for online transactions, so there aren’t many good options
    • security - breaches and scams happen, and if you don’t notice the issue soon enough, you could end up paying for fraudulent transactions; with cryptocurrencies, you never share your private key, so you’re as safe as wherever you store that key; you can also move money between keys, so you can keep the bulk of your money safe

    Even without any kind of physical backing, cryptocurrencies offer an attractive value proposition. We could probably solve the above with fiat, but that currently is not a thing. I don’t recommend using cryptocurrencies for everything, nor do I recommend using it as an investment, but I do recommend using it for a few transactions here and there until you feel comfortable with it because of that value proposition.

    cacheson ,

    It seems like you're arguing against a position that I don't hold? I've been invested in Bitcoin for a long time, and I'm quite familiar with its technical and socioeconomic dynamics. I'm skeptical of altcoins specifically, not of cryptocurrency as a concept.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    Maybe? It reads like you’re arguing that you shouldn’t buy cryptocurrencies at all if you don’t understand how transactions are handled. I don’t think that’s true, and that will just discourage the normal, everyday person from getting started. You may need that info if you’re interested in investment/trading, but you don’t really need to get into the weeds if you just want to pay for some online services.

    The important thing for lay-people is to recognize the value cryptocurrencies can provide, understand which cryptocurrencies are “stable” (as in, not some altcoin scam), and understand transaction times and costs. That’s honestly it. If we can achieve that, more people will start using cryptocurrencies for transactions where it’s available, more vendors will see it as a viable payment source, liquidity will improve, and developers will address the issues as they come up.

    If you’re buying something other than the top few cryptocurrencies, then yes, I agree with you. But you’re not going to do that if your goal is to use it as a currency, because no real vendors are going to accept whatever that new altcoin is. If you stick with the big coins and your goal is to spend those coins, you’re not likely to get screwed. Bitcoin can work w/ Lightning, and Monero (my preference) is great on its own. Those are also the two that are most commonly accepted by vendors.

    Maybe we agree there, idk. I think your comments read a little gatekeepy and from a “cryptocurrencies are investments” standpoint, and I think the focus should be “cryptocurrencies are currencies.”

    cacheson ,

    Alright, fair enough. Keep in mind though that this comment thread started with an assertion that Bitcoin didn't get it quite right, and Monero did, which is more of a big-picture analysis thing than merely "can I buy something with this". My responses have been in that vein.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    That’s fair. The Lightning network really is an interesting solution to the problem Bitcoin had, and I’m interested to find out if/when Monero will run into a similar problem.

    dhork ,

    Maybe we don’t need a Bitcoin emoji, but we absolutely need a Doge emoji.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    Lol, doge

    driving_crooner ,
    @driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br avatar

    🐶 there’s already one

    TootSweet ,

    Cryptocurrency is speedrunning ruining everything. We might as well have a laugh at the cryptobros’ expense in the meantime.

    mp3 ,
    @mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

    I loved the concept at first, the idea of a decentralized currency all handled by encryption, and transactions permamently stored in a public ledger for all to see.

    Then the cryptobros and the scammers caught wind of it and it’s all downhill from there.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    Scammers use the technology because it actually works and does what it says it does. And criminals and scammers and such are generally the first ones to adopt a new technology. Such as bank robbers adopting the automobile in order to get away faster.

    TootSweet ,

    If you want the name of a payment techology that isn’t snake oil, isn’t blockchain-based, isn’t a cult, doesn’t claim to be a currency, doesn’t work on proof-of-work or proof-of-stake, but actually does provide certain privacy guarantees for your basic purchasing needs, is cryptographically secure, and can be used with only FOSS, I recommend looking into GNU Taler.

    The only downside is that it’s not really supported anywhere at all yet. But I do hope it becomes a real thing some day.

    mp3 ,
    @mp3@lemmy.ca avatar

    Thanks, I’ll read on it :)

    radamant ,

    Please describe how I can send the money to my mom in Russia (disconnected from SWIFT) with GNU Taler today. I’ll wait.

    TootSweet ,

    I don’t know how I could possibly have been more explicit about it not yet being ready for any real-world use cases than I was.

    radamant ,

    It will never be ready. It doesn’t even make sense. To transact with real fiat like the US dollar, you’ll have to go through an official on-ramp and an off-ramp of the respective government. And to do an international transaction you’ll have to use one of the widely accepted systems like SWIFT. GNU Taler doesn’t appear to address anything like that. Anyhow, my comment was made with the premise of this whole thread in mind, i.e. “Bitcoin is stupid” or “snake oil”. Yet there’s no alternatives to what crypto provides. So is it that stupid after all?

    explodicle ,

    How wasteful!

    Anyhow, today I’m going to resume using a currency backed by oil and nukes, which encourages consumption on purpose. I will then either exploit workers by investing in a for-profit business, or get poorer.

    But someday, in the future, economics will work the way I expect them to. That’s when I’ll switch to something better!

    iopq ,

    Russia has had oil and nukes and it didn’t stop the ruble from collapsing in the 90s

    Maybe reexamine your assumptions

    explodicle ,

    Oil and nukes won’t stop the dollar from collapsing either…

    index ,

    lol the downvotes. your mom is clearly evil and doesn’t deserve any money

    shortwavesurfer ,

    Exactly. With Monero, she gets it in seconds and no one can stop it.

    EngineerGaming ,
    @EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

    Yea, that is interesting! I don’t really understand a lot of it though. Wonder how censorship-resistant it can be, and whether the receiver would be able to cash it out anonymously.

    TootSweet ,

    I’m not an expert on it, but I’ve done a certain amount of study on it.

    I’m pretty sure there are no privacy guarantees for money receivers. Merchants/sellers would still be identifiable by banks and governments and such. So Taler isn’t what anyone selling heroin or doing murder for hire would want to be using as an accepted payment method. (At least not any more so than credit/debit card transactions will help the seller with keeping their doings secret.)

    But Taler can keep the buyers’ identity secret. Unless you’re doing things in ways that reveal information about yourself, your bank and your government wouldn’t know you were buying fursuits even if they knew the merchant was selling fursuits.

    So all that to say that no, the merchant couldn’t cash out anonymously.

    EngineerGaming ,
    @EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

    What I don’t understand is whether it is like “Taler is obtained and cashed out only in a bank, but the link between two events is unknown” or if Taler can change hands during said “link”.

    If the former - I really hope it gets implemented as a card replacement, but it would need to coexist with something like Monero (which is what I use now) that is more akin to cash. But I really hope that somehow non-blockchain full-on “digital cash” could one day be invented, so wonder if this could be it :)

    TootSweet ,

    How I understand it is:

    • You go to your bank (or use a webapp or whatever) who knows who you are and get them to initiate a withdrawl from your bank account to your Taler wallet in the amount of, say $100.
    • The balance in your Taler wallet goes up by $100. The bank also decrements your bank account by $100 and puts that $100 in an escrow holding intending to pay it to whatever recipient(s) can provide cryptographic proof that you gave them Taler.
    • You go to a merchant and pay out of that $100 Taler balance $9 for a cheeseburger and fries.
    • The merchant receives $9 in Taler from you and checks with your bank that that $9 hasn’t already been spent previously before concluding the payment process and giving you your receipt and burger.
    • You now have a burger and fries and your Taler balance is $91.
    • But the merchant doesn’t learn anything about your identity in the process. But they do have proof that your bank has $9 in escrow earmarked for them (the merchant) specifically.
    • And your bank doesn’t know which of their customers to which they’ve ever given Taler is the one buying from the merchant in question. They just know that of the total sum of Taler they’ve issued that hasn’t been collected yet, $9 is earmarked for such-and-such merchant/burger joint.
    • The merchant can settle up any time, but theoretically the bank can charge per-transaction fees. In order to minimize fees, it behooves the merchant to batch up settlements. The merchant can claim actual USD for every dollar that was used at that establishment by customers via Taler over, say, the last week or whatever in one big settlement batched transaction.

    I’m leaving out some details, but that should give you a decent idea of how things work with Taler.

    Now, as for this bit:

    if Taler can change hands during said “link”.

    That, I’m not sure of. It might be that you can transfer Taler from your wallet to someone else’s wallet (that they could then spend) without any identities being revealed, though they wouldn’t be able to get real USD or whatever without working with your bank which would generally insist on confirming their identity. But I’d think in order for the recipient in that situation to know that they actually had real Taler and not Taler that you had already spent and that wouldn’t actually work if they tried to spend it or cash it in, they’d have to make basically an API call to your bank, though unless the bank blocked all traffic from every VPN and traffic anonymizer (like Tor or I2p) in existence, I see no reason why it couldn’t be done in a way that preserved the recipient’s anonymity.

    So yeah. Not sure. But even if that bit isn’t a thing, I still want Taler to take off.

    EngineerGaming ,
    @EngineerGaming@feddit.nl avatar

    Ah, so probably would not work to evade censorship/sanctions. I would REALLY love to use such a thing instead of my card though.

    index ,

    isn’t blockchain-based, doesn’t work on proof-of-work or proof-of-stake

    These things weren’t introduced as a gimmick they are used to solve specific problems.

    unautrenom , (edited )

    The only downside is that it’s not really supported anywhere at all yet. But I do hope it becomes a real thing some day.

    AFAIK there’s a lot of talk about making GNU Taler the basis for the ‘digital Euro’ which is curently being debated at the EU Parliement.

    deafboy ,
    @deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

    GNU Taller is pretty fragile, though. One bank issues unbacked tokens and the credibility of the whole system goes down the drain. It’s the current financial system, just rebranded. Also, it promotes taxation which automatically makes it a cult & scam.

    TootSweet , (edited )

    One bank issues unbacked tokens

    1. The Taler protocol has bank auditors built-in.
    2. Your hypothetical would just as much apply to existing debit cards.
    3. Unbacked tokens. You mean like Tether? (Let alone Terra.)

    Also, it promotes taxation which automatically makes it a cult & scam?

    The fuck? How does Taler “promote taxation?”

    Fuckin’ Libertarians.

    deafboy ,
    @deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

    Unbacked tokens. You mean like Tether?

    Exactly like Tether. USDT was never backed 1:1 by USD. They don’t even try to deny it anymore. They admit it’s backed by “various assets, including BTC”, which smells like a market manipulation.

    How does Taler promote taxation?

    “Customers can stay anonymous, but merchants can not hide their income through payments with GNU Taler. This helps to avoid tax evasion and money laundering.”

    TootSweet ,

    Thank you for being honest about being pro-tax-evasion and pro-money-laundering.

    Melvin_Ferd ,

    Did they or did a bunch of media get pushed that told us all what these crypto bros were doing like shitting on beaches and taking our jobs.

    Seriously though I’m picking up on a trend that a lot media has a greater influence on opinion then I’ve ever seen before

    blind3rdeye ,

    I liked the idea for awhile as well. But for me, learning about the “proof of work” underpinning is what changed my mind. That - and the fact that cryptocurrency does not actually have any of the strengths that it claims to have. It’s definitely and interesting idea… but in practice it’s all just scams and incentivised waste.

    deafboy ,
    @deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

    That’s interesting. I’ve initially written it off as a scam. Until I’ve learned about the proof-of-work.

    FaceDeer ,
    @FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

    Bitcoin is over 15 years old now, that's not a particularly fast speedrun.

    index ,

    I would rather point my finger at wall street or financial institutions not at the tools that offers a viable option to avoid these

    Atropos ,

    Lack of emojis and also having an emoji are both good for bitcoin.

    Being stupid is good for bitcoin too, probably.

    Chozo ,

    I don't mind there being an emoji for cryptocurrency. It's a relevant thing in modern society whether we like it or not, so there's no reason it should be excluded. But just not Bitcoin, specifically. Even though Bitcoin is the one that kicked off crypto, it's still a brand name, which would result in auto-rejection according to the Unicode Consortium's guidelines.

    If there was a more general-purpose icon/symbol that could represent cryptocurrency in general, that'd be more appropriate. But it can't be Bitcoin.

    borari ,

    They already have that, 💩

    elvith ,

    💩🪙

    polumrak ,

    Poopmoon?

    elvith ,

    Its a coin emoji, but its one of those emoji that get rendered wildly different depending on which device (and software version) you’re viewing it on

    polumrak ,

    Hah, poop coin! For me it’s like realistic moon without face, just like Samsung quality moon photo.

    polumrak ,

    Wait it is a coin! What the what!

    lisquid420 ,

    lol shitcoin

    WhatAmLemmy ,

    I wouldn’t think Bitcoin has, or can, be trademarked or copyrighted, as it is an open-source protocol/technology where even the creator is unknown?

    Either way there isn’t a generic symbol for cryptocurrency. This emoji will go the way of the save icon, where in a couple generations most people will have no idea what it relates to, but know that it’s a symbol for cryptos.

    Chozo , (edited )

    I wouldn't think Bitcoin has, or can, be trademarked or copyrighted, as it is an open-source protocol/technology where even the creator is unknown?

    It's still the name of a specific product/service. The issue is partly trademark/copyright, but also partly a matter of neutrality. The Unicode Consortium want to ensure that they're not directly or indirectly endorsing any specific products. If they added a Bitcoin logo, then you'd see every other crypto lining up to get their logos permanently installed on every person's devices, too. Free advertising for life on 99.99% of phones would be hard to pass up.

    ricecake ,

    I mean, we have a symbol for effectively any currency that anyone can or wants to fill out the paperwork for and can demonstrate the basics of “this is a meaningful symbol with more than transient relevance”.

    They added ₿ in 2016.

    www.compart.com/en/unicode/category/Sc

    Scrollone ,

    So, if there’s already a symbol in Unicode, the petition doesn’t make any sense. They should ask Google and Apple to display the symbol in the emoji list, with a control character to force it as emoji.

    ricecake ,

    Totally. It’s double weird, because it’s not a petitionable issue, it’s a form where you make your case and a committee decides, and they already have the symbol and they just seem to want it to be usable like 💲, which isn’t a thing.

    catloaf ,

    www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/…/index.htm

    FaceDeer ,
    @FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

    It's a specific type of thing, but it's not a brand. Nobody owns the trademark for Bitcoin. Anyone can buy, sell, or mine Bitcoin. It's no more a specific product than dollars are a specific product.

    If they added a Bitcoin logo, then you'd see every other crypto lining up to get their logos permanently installed on every person's devices, too.

    Is there a problem with that? This isn't "advertising", these are unicode symbols. There are unicode symbols for all kinds of things. Every currency has unicode symbols, why not cryptocurrencies?

    beeb ,

    Surely the Tokyo tower is a specific product then? 🗼It costs money to visit, aren’t the other towers jealous?

    magic_lobster_party ,

    https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html#Faulty_Comparison

    The Tokyo Tower🗼(a specific building) does not justify adding the Eiffel Tower.

    Many historical emoji violate current factors for inclusion. Once an emoji is encoded it cannot be removed from the Unicode Standard.

    It was added when Unicode Consortium had different guidelines. They don’t accept specific buildings anymore.

    Under automatically declined:

    Specific buildings, structures, landmarks, or other locations, whether fictional, historic, or modern.

    beeb ,

    Thanks for the explanation

    Phen ,

    The creator of bitcoin is as unknown as batman’s identity. The folks at the center of the main blockchain companies and stuff like that all know pretty well who created it, they just play along with the story.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    if this is true, there would be some evidence

    Phen ,

    Oh, there is. But while they keep this game up, there’s still plausible deniability for everything.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    if you can’t present evidence, then you’re just spreading uncertainty and doubt.

    dhork ,

    If whoever invented Bitcoin is still on this earth, they have a bit of a conundrum. Since we can track all transactions, and we know roughly how long Satoshi was mining the first bitcoins before other people got involved, those early accounts are sitting on over 1 million BTC. Even after today’s dump, that’s still over $50 billion. And for reference, the Koch family is 25th on Forbe’s infamous list, estimated to be worth about $56B. So that person is one of the richest people on the planet.

    However, those coins continue to remain unspent. And once they are moved in any transaction, the entire world will know. That leads to an inherent assumption that those 1M coins (out of 21M that can ever exist) must be irretrievably lost (due to their private keys being deleted), so most have taken that out of the active supply when estimating BTC value. Once they are moved, the price will probably crash – at least 5%, but more likely much more than that. He is among the richest people in the world on paper, but if he moves any of it his wealth will collapse.

    However, one doesn’t have to move coins to prove they own them. Anyone with the private keys could cryptographically sign a message saying “I am Satoshi” with one of the early keys and immediately have 100% credibility. The fact that this hasn’t happened means that those keys likely not longer exist. (I, personally, think Hal Finney took those keys to the grave with him, and Craig Wright is a big fat liar.)

    AlDente ,

    No single wallet has even close to 1 million Bitcoins. It’s a public block chain and you can find a list of the largest wallets in a website like this: bitinfocharts.com/top-100-richest-bitcoin-address…

    Also, regarding the unfair advantage of the genesis block, Bitcoin’s code was actually written in a way that prevents this balance from being transfered. It’s forever locked in the wallet at this address: 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa.

    dhork ,

    True, the Genesis Block is fixed, but it’s speculated that Satoshi did most of the mining during Bitcoin’s initial experiment. I have seen estimates online that the first 22k blocks were mined almost exclusively by Satoshi, all to different BTC addresses, 50 BTC each. Worth practically nothing back then but worth over 2.5M today. Every 10 minutes or so, Satoshi found another one.

    0xD ,

    Satoshi Nakamoto is some kind of consipracy…?

    bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

    0xD ,

    Satoshi Nakamoto.

    bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

    rottingleaf ,

    Why in the world would you have “emojis” as part of Unicode anyway?

    We already have a way to have endless “emojis” without administrative stupidity, it’s called JPEG.

    If you need to show text as that, we’ve had smileys since 90s.

    xthexder ,
    @xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

    Would you rather send an entire JPEG over text message for an emoji? Or just 4 bytes of unicode right inline where you want it? Unicode having a standard set of emoji is actually incredibly useful and reduces complexity. I guess it would disincentivize 👏 emoji 👏 spam 👏 to use JPEGs tho.

    rottingleaf ,

    I’d send :-} and :-\ and =P and D= instead of an emoji. As the founding fathers intended.

    TheGrandNagus ,

    You do that. 👍

    xthexder ,
    @xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

    There’s even more use cases that come up, like being able to use emoji and other fancy symbols anywhere unicode is supported. So you can even program with them. People have taken that idea to the extreme just for fun: www.emojicode.org

    rottingleaf ,

    Other special symbols are a different thing. For APL language or others.

    They are useful, provided you have them on your keyboard or you have configurable extra keys.

    Symbols specifically for emoji - I mean, people can do what they want with code space, even if I’d rather see another obscure alphabet standardized there. Medieval Armenian or Russian musical notation, for example. Something real .

    TheGrandNagus , (edited )

    How aren’t emoji “real”?

    This just comes across as “old man yells at cloud” to me tbh.

    interdimensionalmeme ,

    Just send the file hash and only download a copy if you don’t have it.

    interdimensionalmeme ,

    Hmm, why do we need a corporation to be arbitter of the written language anyway ? If they want to use it, they should just use it.If they can’t because of some central authority then Unicode is is to be abolished and replace with a system where you can usev wherever squiggle that you want and nobody gets a second opinion. You just do it.

    noodlejetski ,

    an emoji for cryptocurrency

    💩🪙

    Zetta ,

    I mean it has its issues but a non regulated currency not controlled by a government is cool imo

    RecluseRamble ,

    Its supposed benefits are vastly overshadowed by their only practical application: allowing online crime to flourish.

    Mubelotix ,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    I suppose you don’t use cash then. Come on, there is almost no online crime anyway

    RecluseRamble ,

    I can buy almost everything with cash but with shitcoins I can only pay ransom. And the FBI probably won’t agree there’s virtually no online crime.

    desktop_user ,

    Semi-legal activities such as donating to wanted individuals, purchasing non regulated non illegal to ship medicine, purchasing digital goods (such as commissioned art) from countries that were banned by SWIFT (Russia).

    azalty ,
    @azalty@jlai.lu avatar

    I’ve already paid a lot of legal things and donated a lot with crypto. It’s pretty much the only way to pay online without giving away your personal info

    Zetta ,

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯ drug users gotta get their drugs

    shortwavesurfer ,

    Criminals use what works. So therefore that means that crypto actually does its job as a real currency that cannot be controlled. Criminals also have a habit of using auto mobiles, guns, computers, shoes, etc.

    calcopiritus ,

    If criminals only used cars from brand X and nobody else used brand X, it would be viewed the same.

    There are plenty of currencies out there, which normal people use. Cryptocurrencies are mainly used by criminals though.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    Chain analysis companies whose whole reason for existing is selling exchanges and governments software to track illicit cryptocurrency transactions show that less than 1% of transactions are illicit in nature. So I don’t know how that means the majority of crypto is used for illicit finance.

    calcopiritus ,

    Had to go out and find a source myself.

    …europa.eu/…/Europol Spotlight - Cryptocurrencies…

    Private companies say less than 1%. Academia says around 20%. That’s a huge difference to only cite one side of the story.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    That’s a good point. It’s pretty safe to assume that private companies would want to downplay it as much as possible and academia for governments and shit would want to play it up as much as possible. So the real number probably truly lies somewhere in between those two.

    sukhmel ,

    The main issue is that it tries to fix government trust issues with private actors trust issues. It’s still trust issues

    SorteKanin ,
    @SorteKanin@feddit.dk avatar

    I don’t think it should have an emoji either, but how does this rule apply to real currencies being emojis? I mean there is dollar banknote 💵 and yen banknote 💴 and euro banknote 💶 as separate emojis, not just a general money one. And honestly, even most of the emojis referencing anything that has to do with money uses dollar signs, i.e. $. Were these rules made after these emojis were already added?

    Chozo ,

    I saw this get brought up a lot. I think the difference is that currency symbols generally don't refer to a specific currency. USD and AUS both use the $ symbol, for example. "Dollar" and "American Dollar" aren't the same thing since other types of dollars exist, and the symbols are still technically multi-purpose, whereas the ₿ symbol technically refers only to Bitcoin.

    That's my theory on the reasoning, at least.

    magic_lobster_party ,

    It probably falls under faulty comparison:

    https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html#Faulty_Comparison

    Their guidelines change, and it’s possible these emoji were added with old guidelines. They can’t remove old emoji, which means specific buildings like Tokyo Tower🗼is an emoji, even if they prohibit the addition of specific buildings nowadays.

    qaz ,

    It makes a lot more sense to implement this the way country flags are implemented in Unicode.

    magic_lobster_party ,

    The problem with having cryptocurrency as emoji is agreeing on the specification how it should be drawn, and also make it different enough from already existing emojis such as coin 🪙. It is not exactly a tangible thing.

    Corkyskog ,

    Just make it the B symbol they use in the coin? None of the others would exist in their current fashion, without Bitcoin anyway.

    echodot ,

    Bitcoin is a brand name there which means they can’t do that. Also if bitcoin deserves its own symbol (and I don’t think it necessarily does) then all the cryptocurrencies such as ethereum also deserve one.

    technocrit ,

    Windows wouldn’t have existed without DOS so it’s logo should be the DOS logo. Likewise the USD emoji should be a pile of gold. \s

    LodeMike ,

    It already has a codepoint. ₿

    alcoholicorn ,

    cryptocurrency

    ricecake ,

    Bitcoin is stupid, but the point of Unicode is that we have a symbol for everything that has a commonly recognized symbol or representative value, or even uncommonly recognized.

    If ⅌ gets a character, or all the symbols of the Byzantine musical notation system, I’m not sure why a typically recognized symbol for a cryptocurrency shouldn’t.

    The weird bit is that they put together a petition. All you really need to do is submit a proposal and show that it’s a notable symbol and not owned by anyone in particular or a brand icon.

    Here’s the proposal to add “goose” to Unicode. They even added a few joke-y bits, but they made a valid argument that “goose” is a symbol that people recognize. And now… 🪿

    lunarul ,

    I don’t disagree with the overall comment, but there’s a difference between character and emoji. ⅌ got a character, but so did ₿ already.

    ricecake ,

    There really isn’t a difference between a character and an emoji beyond an emoji being a stylized rendering of a character, or a character whose use is intended as a pictograph.

    www.unicode.org/reports/tr51/#Introduction

    They’re all just Unicode code points, although I suppose there’s some distinction between the characters with more context specific meaning or the ones that are more apt to modification a la 🧑‍⚕️👩🏿‍⚕️. But you’ve also got 💲 and $, where “bold dollar sign” is often represented as green, but “dollar sign” tends to be represented in contextual style. Is ☣ a character or an emoji? What about the thousands of “other symbols” as defined by the Unicode spec which may or may not have special character renderings depending on your platform and font?

    And yeah, I didn’t know that character existed, so now it’s doubly confusing why anyone is asking for anything. The symbol has meaning, and it’s in the big book of meaningful symbols. Not sure what more they want.

    lunarul , (edited )

    There’s no ambiguity. Emoji are characters in the emoticons code block (U+1F600…U+1F64F). Emoji are indeed a subset of characters, but anything outside that block is not an emoji.

    Edit: jumped the gun on that definition, just took the code block from Wikipedia. But there is no ambiguity on which character is an emoji and which is not. The Unicode Consortium publishes lists of emoji and guidelines on how they should be rendered.

    ricecake ,

    Gotcha, so ⌚(U+231A, miscellaneous technical block) isn’t an emoji, despite it clearly being a pictograph, and there are only 80 emoji?

    I feel like this definition isn’t in line with either the lay definition of emoji, nor the technical definition

    Emoji are pictographs (pictorial symbols) that are typically presented in a colorful cartoon form and used inline in text. They represent things such as faces, weather, vehicles and buildings, food and drink, animals and plants, or icons that represent emotions, feelings, or activities.

    People often ask how many emoji are in the Unicode Standard. This question does not have a simple answer, because there is no clear line separating which pictographic characters should be displayed with a typical emoji style.

    Emoji are seriously just Unicode characters that sometimes get rendered as a fancy image. That’s it. There’s an entire bit about how different characters have different conventional presentations and a codified system of “default” for image or “text”.

    The presentation of a given emoji character depends on the environment, whether or not there is an emoji or text presentation selector, and the default presentation style (emoji versus text). In informal environments like texting and chats, it is more appropriate for most emoji characters to appear with a colorful emoji presentation, and only get a text presentation with a text presentation selector. Conversely, in formal environments such as word processing, it is generally better for emoji characters to appear with a text presentation, and only get the colorful emoji presentation with the emoji presentation selector.

    That’s why there’s things like ☣️ and ☣. Same codepoint, but different presentation hints. (I’m assuming that our various systems will do the right thing and capture the presentation hints, otherwise I’m going to look very odd putting the same symbol over and over :-) )

    lunarul , (edited )

    I rushed to just grab that codeblock from Wikipedia. But the selection of which characters are considered emoji is not arbitrary. The Unicode Consortium (their Unicode Emoji Standard and Research Working Group to be exact) publishes those list and guidelines on how they should be rendered. I believe the most recent version of the standard is Emoji 15.1.

    Edit: I realized I’m going off track here by just reacting to comments and forgetting my initial point. The difference I was initially alluding to is in selection criteria. The emoji. for assigning a character a Unicode codepoint is very different from the criteria for creating a new emoji. Bitcoin has a unique symbol and there is a real need to use that symbol in written material. Having a unicode character for it solves that problem, and indeed one was added. The Emoji working group has other selection criteria (which is why you have emoji for eggplant and flying money, and other things that are not otherwise characters. So the fact that a certain character exists, despite its very limited use, has no bearing on whether something else should have an emoji to represent it.

    ricecake ,

    I am aware of the lists and guidelines, I’ve been linking and quoting them to you. :)

    It’s their report on the standards that highlights that they don’t think there’s a clear distinction between “emoji” and “character”, and that it’s mostly a matter of user expectation.
    Hence some pictograph characters having a default “text” presentation, and some having a default “emoji” presentation. They also clarify that some things with a default “emoji” presentation aren’t in the set of characters people would associate with emoji and shouldn’t be counted if you’re trying.

    I understand what you’re saying, which is that the selection criteria is different for a “language symbol” as opposed to a “pictographic symbol”, so they’re different things.
    I disagree and think that “default presentation” might be a better metric, but that ultimately it’s about user and platform expectations. The same character can be presented “emoji” style or “text” style depending on context.

    In any case, I’d also agree that there’s no viability to the notion that people use the Bitcoin symbol in a way that’s independent of the one meaning that it has, so a colorful cartoony rendition becoming an option doesn’t really fit. “His Christmas gift was $$$” is a sentiment people might express. “The hotel is ₿₿₿” just … Isn’t.

    Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
    @Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

    If we’re not getting an asshole emoji this will suffice.

    SlopppyEngineer ,

    It’ll make it easier to filter out spam. If it contains this emoji, delete it.

    nublug ,

    fighting for bitcoin to get an emoji is stupid, but fighting against it might be even stupider. surely there are more important things to spend your time and energy on. it’s a fucking emoji. who cares?

    smallpatatas OP ,

    normalizing scams, by laundering their image via standards organizations, pollutes our communications environment. Both an emoji and a petition are symbolic - and our symbols are in fact important.

    CeeBee_Eh ,

    Bitcoin isn’t a scam. All non-bitcoin cryptocurrencies are scams.

    People often hear about stuff like coins that are pre-mined, or proof-of-stake and the schemes and scans that come out of those, and immediately associate Bitcoin with the same thing.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    That is also not 100% true. There are several altcoins with fantastic utility. Monero and Ethereum come to mind.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    Exactly. Most cryptocurrencies are scams, but a handful are fantastic. Ethereum is cool for being proof-of-stake (so no high-energy mining), and Monero is cool for being super privacy-oriented. There are a handful more, but honestly, if you stick with Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Monero, you’ll be fine.

    shortwavesurfer ,

    That’s pretty much exactly my thought. I hold a very very small amount in Polygon, but only in order to pay the gas fees for the Polygon network. So I never have more than a few US dollars worth in it at a time.

    sugar_in_your_tea ,

    Yeah, I basically just do Monero, and I use it as a spend account and use it anywhere it’s accepted. I don’t invest in any cryptocurrencies because I don’t think cryptocurrencies have positive expected return (it’s all hype), so I keep the amount of crypto I have small.

    CeeBee_Eh ,

    I wouldn’t argue with that. I was mostly generalizing.

    Mubelotix ,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    Ethereum has scam characteristics though. The creator Vitalik gave himself time to mine it alone before giving public access. He secured for himself quite a nice stash

    shortwavesurfer ,

    That’s true. I suspect the application programming is the only reason that it actually took off.

    glassware ,

    Of course bitcoin is a scam. It’s a “currency” you can’t spend anywhere. It’s only purpose is a pump and dump scheme for early adopters.

    0x0 ,

    It’s a “currency” you can’t spend anywhere.

    You could’ve at least pretended to have done some basic research…

    CeeBee_Eh ,

    It’s a “currency” you can’t spend anywhere

    Lol

    It’s only purpose is a pump and dump scheme for early adopters.

    This is exactly what many alt-coins are but Bitcoin is decidedly not.

    You’re confusing “easy to mine” with “early adopter scam”.

    reksas ,

    millions of people who use emojis would constantly see it. It would slowly start to feel more familiar to them and increase its acceptance. If that works, others would try to do the same and we would have every and any company put their logos in. If it doesnt then it doesnt matter that much, but i dont want to risk yet another avenue for corporations to worm into peoples minds.

    Personally i dont care about emojis at all but i do care about general mentalspace.

    interdimensionalmeme ,

    It would create legitimation and that could further increase its popularity

    Ghostalmedia ,
    @Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

    I think I should post a 1000 word essay about why I dislike the merman emoji.

    quinkin , (edited )

    Should just be a generic crypto currency symbol with a rug being pulled from under it.

    lemmytellyousomething , (edited )

    Short reminder that Bitcoin was created as a reaction on the world finance crisis and to allow people like Assange to receive donations, because PayPal and similar just blocked them…

    That does not mean that Botcoin is perfect, but: If the alternative system was perfect, there was not bitcoin.

    Now, do we need an emoji? I don’t care TBH…

    echodot ,

    I don’t mind a system like bitcoin existing but bitcoin itself has way too many problems to be useful and actually is detrimental to the environment. It takes way too long to process a transaction, it is massively energy intensive for what it is, and it’s been hyped up like the Californian gold Rush.

    Sure it was created to solve a problem but it doesn’t actually solve that problem very effectively. It also introduces an infinite number of new problems that no other currency system has ever experienced.

    technocrit ,

    It also introduces an infinite number of new problems that no other currency system has ever experienced.

    Infinite problems, eh? Can you name like 10?

    smeeps ,

    Bitcoin is terrible for that though. High transaction fees, slow transaction speeds, everyone can see your balances and transactions (and with KYC requirements it’s very easy to link a wallet and a coin to a person).

    Monero is the only digital currency worth having.

    deafboy ,
    @deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

    Monero is great. Except for the fact that when the dev team dislikes what miners are doing, they introduce a new arbitrary rule, and everyone just goes with it. Having a process to introduce such changes unilaterally is a bug that needs to be fixed first.

    Also, there’s a lightning network which allows you to transact bitcoin fast and cheap. Although the privacy aspect is still not solved there.

    technocrit ,

    No! Bitcoin is a scam created by scammers! Don’t look at state currencies!!! \s

    smallpatatas OP ,

    This is like saying “laws aren’t always enforced equally, so we should have no laws whatsoever”. Bitcoin is not a helpful response.

    lemmytellyousomething ,

    I think, whether it’s helpful is an individual decision. E.g. for people in Turkey, it’s a lot more stable than their own currency. Same logic for probably dozens of other countries…

    Maybe, it’s not useful for you, but that’s OK. No one is trying to replace your currency with it and force you to use it.

    smallpatatas OP ,

    Bitcoin’s “value” in USD terms has dropped ~20% in the last few days, so I’m not sure we can call it ‘stable’

    iopq ,

    In 1998 the USD fell like 20% vs the yen, currencies don’t always stay the same value vs. other currencies

    smallpatatas OP ,

    Bitcoin regularly loses 85% of its “value” vs USD

    85%

    This has happened multiple times

    lemmytellyousomething , (edited )

    Turkey’s currency dropped 83% in the last 5 years and 94% in 10 years (per USD). And by the way: It dropped and did not rise the same amount ever again…

    Why can’t we just agree that different people might have different views whether it’s useful for them?

    Is it more stable compared to USD? No. Is it more stable compared to dozens of other currencies? Yes.

    I think, there are very good arguments against BTC, for example the energy consunption… But whether it’s too risky for you or not… That’s highly subjective IMO. There is no country on this planet with only BTC as official currency. So, no one is forced to hold 100% of their total money in BTC.

    smallpatatas OP ,

    So the argument is no longer “Bitcoin provides stability” or whatever, but instead is, “it’s no more unstable than the world’s most unstable national currency”?

    lemmytellyousomething ,

    Please tell me where I (or anyone) wrote “Bitcoin provides stability” without comparing it to another currency…

    I assume, arguing with you is an endless circle where you argue against fake arguments that no one has brought up. I’ll therefore end this here. Why are you like this?

    smallpatatas OP ,

    Hey look, I wasn’t the one that wrote this:

    “E.g. for people in Turkey, it’s a lot more stable than their own currency. Same logic for probably dozens of other countries…”

    Is the “dozens of other countries” statement something you no longer stand behind, or are you done being rude?

    iopq ,

    The swings were bigger when the market cap was smaller, this is usually the case. The market cap of the yen is much bigger still.

    smallpatatas OP ,

    Turns out you’re right, BTC price only went down 77% from the 2021 peak, my mistake /s

    magic_lobster_party ,

    We also need a McDonald’s emoji, Pepsi emoji, Windows emoji and Mastercard emoji. These are also brands that are heavily ingrained in our culture. Probably even more so than Bitcoin.

    Or we accept that brands like Bitcoin shouldn’t use emoji as a marketing tool.

    pyre ,

    Probably even more so

    probably? shitcoin isn’t even in the same ballpark universe as something like McDonald’s or Pepsi.

    technocrit ,

    Yeah McDonalds is based on torturing and murdering animals while destroying the planet… While bitcoin is only destroying the planet like the rest of capitalism.

    pyre ,

    vegans stay on topic challenge (impossible)

    Mubelotix ,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    These are not public infrastructure

    Chozo ,

    Neither is Bitcoin.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    yes, it is. anyone can spin up a node or download the blockchain or make an address.

    RxBrad ,
    @RxBrad@infosec.pub avatar

    Anyone can shit their pants. Is that “infrastructure”?

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    the sewer is infrastructure. i don’t think you understand the network protocol.

    RxBrad ,
    @RxBrad@infosec.pub avatar

    I’m not using the sewer when I shit my pants. I don’t think you understand pants.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    maybe you should use the public infrastructure.

    Mubelotix ,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    You think you can fool people by using a simple straw man argument technique? Come on, get your shit together. Bitcoin is infrastructure as anyone can submit transactions to the network and they will be seamlessly processed. As simple as that

    RxBrad ,
    @RxBrad@infosec.pub avatar

    I know that shouting “straw man!” is the first step of trying to deflect from being wrong on the Internet… But if you’re going to do it, at least know what a straw man is.

    My argument is that “Infrastructure” != “anyone can do it”.

    Infrastructure is something that benefits and maintains the general public. Bitcoin benefits a handful of cryptobros, billionaires… and most importantly ransomware rings.

    Mubelotix ,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    Your straw man is “shit in their pants”

    Read your own comments dude

    RxBrad ,
    @RxBrad@infosec.pub avatar

    The person I was arguing with was saying that “infrastructure is anything which is something anyone can do”. I gave an example of something that anyone can do which isn’t infrastructure.

    It’s absolutely a direct refuation — a counter-example which disproves their original statement. It’s not a “straw man”, as much as you get mad and scream that it is.

    Mubelotix ,
    @Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

    So you were wrong from the beginning. He never said “infrastructure is anything which is something anyone can do”. You are the only one who said it. He provided an example of a service provided by the infrastructure in question

    itslilith ,
    @itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Should the fediverse get an emoji? How about Matrix?

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    as was already said elsewhere, advocating for an emoji is silly, and advocating against one might be sillier.

    itslilith ,
    @itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Putting significant energy into campaigning against it? Sure. But what’s silly about saying “this is a stupid idea and shouldn’t happen”?

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    that blog post and petition are significantly more than just saying it’s stupid

    Emerald ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    do you know how I know that you didn’t read the article?

    floquant ,

    Since when is Bitcoin a brand lmao? I’m really struggling to see how it is comparable to McDonald’s or Windows. Having a logo does not make you a corporation

    magic_lobster_party ,

    The Bitcoin logo is the brand. Corporations like exchanges use this brand to market their services.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    Bitcoin is a network protocol. not a brand.

    magic_lobster_party ,

    The logo and name is the brand. How do you visually represent a specific payment protocol without using its logo? There’s no emoji for HTTP or TCP either.

    deathbird ,

    I’m actually for the idea of emojis for protocols. Not Bitcoin specifically because I don’t think it has long term potential as a deflationary virual asset, but block chain? Sure.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    while there may not be an emoji for http, maybe there should be. there is sort of an unofficial one (a broken lock), and there are other protocols that have logos. as another commenter said, it’s kind of silly to fight for an emojii for it, and probably sillier to fight against it.

    Emerald ,

    while there may not be an emoji for http, maybe there should be.

    No God, Please No!

    We don’t need another gzip or bzip2 logo. Lol

    https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/848e55fd-d4e2-4cb6-8680-1afdf95698b9.pnghttps://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9ea173ff-f430-4844-980a-acdf30c56d68.png

    ByteOnBikes ,

    Nobody is saying Bitcoin to refer to that, ever. Come on.

    AnarchistsForKamala ,

    maybe no one you talk to, but I assure you, it happens. it is happening right now, in this conversation

    Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

    Bitcoin is digital money. A better analogy would be to campaign for a USD, Yen, euro or British pound emoji.

    Oh wait, they already exist.

    magic_lobster_party ,

    https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html#Faulty_Comparison

    The existence of other emoji can’t justify the inclusion of a new emoji. Those emojis are old, and it’s unlikely they would’ve been approved under Unicode’s current guidelines.

    Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

    I agree with you.

    I’m not really arguing for a bitcoin emoji. Just against the McDonald’s brand comparison.

    BTC is not mainstream enough (and never will be) to be needed in everyday text speak.

    poo , (edited )
    @poo@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s also a scam. But those who fell for it and NFTs want to downtown cuz mad

    technocrit ,

    How so?

    calcopiritus ,

    The coin itself is not a scam.

    However, its main usage is to receive payments from scams or any other kind of computer-related crime really.

    conciselyverbose ,

    Except those are real currencies the world recognizes.

    Most businesses will tell you to fuck off if you try to pay them in bitcoin.

    Emerald ,

    Most businesses will tell you to fuck off if you try to pay them in bitcoin.

    Yes and no. You can indirectly pay for things in Bitcoin using a Bitcoin credit card. Although I’m not sure why you would want to.

    conciselyverbose ,

    It’s not “paying in bitcoin” if you have a random third party on your side converting it to a currency that isn’t a joke.

    Aolley ,

    hail emoji?

    uriel238 ,
    @uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    🍟 <<< Only one brand sells French fries / Chips in this format. And it’s the super-size format.

    magic_lobster_party ,

    Unicode Consortium decide which emoji should be included. It’s up to each vendor themselves to come up with how they should look like. I don’t think Unicode Consortium explicitly state it must look like McDonald’s fries.

    uriel238 ,
    @uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    No. But the description of the Emoji is French Fries in a red carton.

    Now I can’t be absolutely certain only McDonald’s sells french fries in a red carton, nor do I know if red french fry cartons are trademarked (answers to these questions evaded simple websearches) but I have never seen french fries sold in red cartons outside of McDonald’s.

    If you do find non-McDonald’s french fries sold in a red carton, please point them out.

    magic_lobster_party ,

    Red carton is chosen because that’s how it’s commonly depicted in cartoon images.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=french+fries+cartoon&t=h_&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

    uriel238 ,
    @uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    The red and white stripes are the generic 50’s era diner fries. Flat red was introduced by McDonald’s in the 1980s extra-large and super-size cartons. (Before that McDonald’s fries were sold in white waxed-paper envelopes.

    azalty ,
    @azalty@jlai.lu avatar

    At KFC they’re in a red plastic box of the same format. Can’t buy them cuz of reusable packaging laws in France, but that’s what I thought first when I saw this emoji

    uriel238 ,
    @uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    That’s fair. I had forgotten KFC made their own version of fries and boxed them in red.

    deafboy ,
    @deafboy@lemmy.world avatar

    We also need a McDonald’s emoji, Pepsi emoji, Windows emoji and Mastercard emoji

    bitcoin is not a company.

    whotookkarl ,
    @whotookkarl@lemmy.world avatar

    Also not a brand, in the trademark sense

    Emerald ,

    Mastercard emoji

    💳

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