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ssj2marx ,

When a driver enters their automated station, the station will connect directly to the vehicle, drive and park it at the platform, have the depleted battery be dropped out from the bottom of the vehicle and replaced it with a fully charged battery while charging the user’s account — all within three minutes. The driver doesn’t even need to control or step out of the car.

That’s really cool, although I maintain that for urban travel the scooters with the hot-swappable battery under the seat are the ideal solution.

labsin ,

There was a scooter sharing company that drove around, swapping the batteries. It went out of business and now there are only the Bird style scooters.

If there were battery swapping stations, I’d definitely by me a bike.

JoshuaFalken ,

When 52% of all trips made are less than 3 miles and less than 2% are over fifty miles, I don’t think battery swapping is something any individual needs on a regular basis.

I could get on board if manufacturers were making $10,000 sub 50 mile vehicles that were compatible with a swap station so you could switch to a larger battery for the weekend. This would have to be a standard adopted by all however, and even before that, they’d have to make small cars. Which they won’t, because we all know they are too busy making trucks and SUVs.

Gsus4 OP , (edited )
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

hear hear for small cars

PS: and walkable/cyclable cities

fatalError ,

Do people even need a car for a 3 miles trip? You can cover that on a bike in 15-20 mins at a chill pace… Also, 28% of trips are less than a mile? People can’t walk a mile?

GravityAce ,

Would be good for hauling large objects

fatalError ,

I doubt the average person needs to do that daily over such a short distance.

ocassionallyaduck ,

Not speaking for other places, but America is not made for bikes or pedestrians. It is actively hostile to them in the best cases, and filled with explicit murderous intent in others.

Drivers will actually, actively, try to hit you for daring to take to the roads. And you have to take the road because we have sparse or missing pedestrian sidewalks.

I wouldn’t wish biking 3 miles in most American cities on anyone used to a properly designed nation.

BilboBargains ,

Sadly, you are speaking for a great many places. I’ve cycled in most of the countries I’ve visited and it can be relatively dangerous.

If people want to see how to integrate a public transport network with a cycle path network, places like Netherlands and Denmark are leading the way.

Over here in the UK we have one of the most regressive attitudes to sustainable transport in Europe. Our trains don’t work and cycling is barely tolerated.

Specal ,

This is just anecdotal, but as someone who both drives and cycles in the UK, I’d say it’s city dependent. I live in Leeds, go to uni in Leeds and work in Huddersfield. I cycle to uni, cycle to the train station and drive to work (when I can’t get a train for whatever reason). Leeds is getting there, albeit slowly but it’s getting alot better for cyclists. I like the electric bicycle scheme so I can cycle to the station and just leave the bike there. although it shouldn’t be more expensive than getting a bus.

ThirdWorldOrder ,

Not everyone is child free and lives where it doesn’t rain

itstoowet ,

The Dutch do it… Rain or shine (mostly rain with crazy wind) with their cargo/kid bikes.

ThirdWorldOrder ,

I am Dutch

itstoowet ,

So just lazy then?

I live on the Dutch coast and still cycle despite constantly shit weather.

ThirdWorldOrder ,

I have 4 kids. Stop acting like a rodent.

itstoowet ,

Sounds like you’re stressed from all those kids! Have you tried cycling? It’s a great outlet and stress relief

ThirdWorldOrder ,

Not stressed at all, I have a home gym.

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/481d7149-0387-4180-b869-4dc76133d3b6.jpeg

Thanks for your concern!

fatalError ,

Weight training is very nice for muscle growth and all, but have you tried cycling as a healthy cardio alternative?

If almost a third of trips are less than a mile I feel like the cars are being overused… I am not dismissing the legitimate reasons like rain or carrying kids, although umbrellas and covered strollers have been invented, but I doubt that contributes much to that statistic. If I were to guess, many of these short trips are to the closest mcdonald’s drive-through, but regardless.

If gas prices weren’t so low(because the US spread freedom to every oil rich country to ensure that), I am pretty sure these statistics would look a lot different. I am sure the urban planning and missing sidewalks don’t help, but if fuel was more expensive there would be a lot more people walking, therefore creating incentive for a change.

ThirdWorldOrder ,

This is you right, calling on car companies to produce even more vehicles?

lemmy.sdf.org/comment/5400276

Gas prices are largely controlled by OPEC, which the USA isn’t even part of.

Thank you for all your colorful annotations.

fatalError ,

Pulling things out of context I see… That thread was about supply and demand being unbalanced leading to scalping. It doesn’t matter if it’s cars, GPUs, PS5s or <insert item not in stock>. It’s how economy works.

ThirdWorldOrder ,

Why didn’t you tell everyone to just ride bikes

fatalError ,

Because for the half of people that take longer trips some might consider bikes unsuitable. And for the half that does take short trips I doubt they would care or even consider it, just like you. But I guess that’s enough offtopic for this thread. So if you want to take the car out for a 2km trip go for it, as for me 8’ll just walk it, I don’t mind a bit of rain or snow as I specifically chose a city that is walkable so I got all I need in 30 mins walking distance or bus ride. I don’t even need a car inside the city unless grabbing something heavier from the supply store, but even for that I can go see the item in the store and they will deliver it. Definetly not a daily thing tho

ThirdWorldOrder ,

Point taken

Nfamwap ,

Holland is also flat as fuck

eldavi ,

I could get on board if manufacturers were making $10,000 sub 50 mile vehicles that were compatible with a swap station so you could switch to a larger battery for the weekend. This would have to be a standard adopted by all however, and even before that, they’d have to make small cars. Which they won’t, because we all know they are too busy making trucks and SUVs.

they make $10k ev’s with 250 mile ranges that are for sale everywhere except the united states & canada. you can get them in australia or western europe for a 50-75%-ish tariff depending on which country you’re in…

JoshuaFalken ,

Without knowing any examples of the vehicles that are for sale everywhere except, roughly, half the world, I can’t really say much them. What I can say is that compared to the monstrous subsidies the oil and gas industry recieve, it does seem like those tariffs could be done away with. At least on the face of it, perhaps the issue is more intricate than that but I’m sure you grasp my meaning.

eldavi ,

for the united states, it’s actually pretty simple; it’s about stopping chinese control of the auto industry and protecting ford, gm & chrysler from having to innovate. here’s a short video with a high level overview of it.

Blackmist ,

The whole “but what about the one journey a year you make that’s outside the normal battery range?” is such an obvious fossil fuel industry boondoggle. It’s up there with “but what about that one time you had to move a fridge?” when convincing people that a Ford F150 is a normal sized family car.

morbidcactus ,

I’m also thinking that way wrt to “we need more fast charging for EVs to work”, I recall that plugging into a standard outlet will get you something like 5-8 km an hour, slow charging is totally acceptable for most people’s usages. If you’re in an area where block heaters are the norm you already have outlets at parking spots, if I could commute to work and plug it in, covers most commutes in a 8 hour day, even those of us who rarely go in and live 70k away I’d be getting most of my range back. For the amount I drive, level 1 charging is more than sufficient.

I think a compact with 2-300 k range would suit me just fine, would cover the odd longer trip and I’ll totally grab a rental for anything longer, like I already do it I need to move a fridge.

JoshuaFalken ,

It’s almost like they knew in the sixties that they were in for some problems and have since been devising ever more complicated methods of disinforming the public in order to maintain their wealth. Does my head in sometimes.

ssj2marx ,

52% of all trips made are less than 3 miles and less than 2% are over fifty miles

I got a Chevy Volt based on this premise, and it’s true! I barely touched my car’s ICE until I moved further out into the sticks (running away from rising rents) and even way out here most of my trips are to the grocery store or post office and don’t need it.

JoshuaFalken ,

I was looking at the Volt a couple years ago but the only ones around were over 25k. Then I started looking for a BMW i3, but, like so many of the cheaper EVs, there’s not many for sale. It’s a shame these smaller vehicles, even a hybrid, aren’t pumped out the factories left, right, and centre.

It’d be so much safer - and quieter - in the city if smaller cars were more pervasive.

bitchkat ,

No I would not. Chargers work just fine.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

I think an automated battery swap system would work best for OTR trucking. Pull in, battery packs swapped, off they go. The charge for much larger batteries would take longer, or at least would be better done not attached to a vehicle for maintenance or in case of thermal problems.

sleepmode ,

There’s a company doing this already. Giant battery sits behind the cab. They drive up, unplug it like a LEGO with a huge robot arm, plunk in a new one and good to go.

kent_eh ,

I think an automated battery swap system would work best for OTR trucking.

Yes, that and other commercial vehicles that put on a lot of miles in a day, every day.

KingOfTheCouch ,

Not to mention, most of these trucks are very standardized in their dimensions and parts already. This is probably the biggest thing that will hurt small vehicles is picking a subset of standardized dimensions that will fit multiple models.

AlternateRoute ,
  1. Book a swap in the app
  2. arrive in the lineup.
  3. serves one car at a time like an oil change
  4. the station has to constantly be charging the used batteries.

Or

Install 4-6 high speed chargers in the same spot and clear more cars faster .

Essentially the swap station is only better if you arrive without a lineup. The swap takes 7-10min and is manned. If you are one or two cars deep waiting you are better to have just found a charger

Gsus4 OP ,
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

True, mass parallel charging can fulfill more peak demand faster, but from the point of view of the user, it would still be good to have the option to fill/exchange the battery quickly.

AlternateRoute ,

An EV6 on an capable fast charger can do 10% to 80% in 17 min

They need to make the swap faster / higher throughput or charging is still going to make more sense .

Gsus4 OP , (edited )
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

One thing that would speed it up would be if you could just drop the 1-ton battery by gravity (safely, which I understant is hard on the edges of any hooks holding it, maybe they could use a raised floor, which is what they do in NIO) and snap it back on in 30s or less for a total of 2m. The rest is just your usual parking, pulling the gas hose. Maybe make it go-through so you don’t have to manouver into place.

rekorse ,

Why wouldn’t you compare like situations? It appears you chose a rather well set-up charging station vs. a poorly setup swapping station.

I didn’t picture an oil change when I imagined a battery swap station, I am not sure that should be the default or starting point.

AlternateRoute ,

neo is the ONLY company doing swap stations, and that is how they work… I also described current, available EVs with available chargers.

bitchkat ,

More like install 8 to 12 DCFS at a minimum and some very busy stations have a massive amount of chargers.

Dewe ,

The example of driving from Paris to Mt St Michel where you have to plan carefully to get to ‘the only supercharger’ east of Paris is a bit stupid. Why not charge at Total, Engie, or even Lidl? I assume Teslas are not exclusively charged at superchargers, which can be pretty slow at 150kW when there are 300kW options as well.

A good and in France rapidly improving charging network is important, swapping batteries sounds nice but brings so many compatibility and standardization issues, not considering ownership/lock-in etc.

BastingChemina , (edited )

I stopped reading the article there.

Either the author is voluntarily misleading or he has no idea of what he is talking about.

Here is the map all the fast charging stations (>100kW) along the way between Paris and the Mont St Michel.

The Tesla model 3 in Europe uses the standard combo CCS plug so it can use all of these stations.

https://files.catbox.moe/8v8j4l.png

I did not count them but at a first glance the number of charger is higher than “none”

Edit: OK I read the article after all but I really don’t see what problem battery swapping would solve.

I could see a use case for public transport that has to go a specific road and need to run non stop every days but even then I suspect that having overhead cable on a short section to charge the battery while running would be more appropriate than battery swapping.

The article is talking about the lack of charging station but battery swapping just make the problem way way worse. A battery charger is just a parking spot and a high voltage AC - DC transformer connected to the grid. It’s relatively cheap and easy to install, does not take much space and work for all electric cars compared to a battery swapping station that can only work for one specific brand (specific model too ?) need robotics and plenty of storage. Its much harder and expensive to install and you need one charging station per brand. This means less stations overall.

Finally there is the speed of charging, this is true that battery swapping is probably faster than fast charging but honestly I don’t find charging an electric car that inconvenient.

On long highway trips I need to stop around 20 minutes every 2 hours, a 20 minutes break every 2 hours is not that bad, just enough time for a toilet break, a quick coffee before going back on the road.

Rinox ,

for one specific brand (specific model too ?)

Probably one platform (used for several models, sometimes shared between brands. For instance VW Polo, Audi A1, Seat Ibiza and Skoda Fabia are all based on the same platform).

Unless you have cars with modular battery packs, which do not exist right now.

Grimy ,

The cost to install stations would dramatically reduce if you had one stations that could supply 20 parking lots instead of one station for each two lots.

It also shuts up all the complaints about batteries going dead and the cost of replacing them.

I do agree ice vehicles are already very convenient and most people complaining are mostly just parroting oil propoganda, but making them even more convenient isn’t a bad thing.

I don’t think many run their batteries to the ground but it’s nice to know someone can just bring you a spare if you do.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

I’m complaining about the battery station model, not about the EV in general.

I have a few points to point out:

  1. Battery pack recycle is still expensive and complex. It isn’t an engine block you can disassemble, melt, and mold for something else.
  2. Ownership is a huge problem. This ties tightly to right to repair. Say your car broke down, now you’re almost certainly need to go through the dealer or the manufacture because the battery isn’t yours.
  3. This impacts the life expectancy of the vehicle. Once the battery model for your car is EOL, you either stuck with the last battery swapped in, or worst you need to return the battery and have a non-functional car.
  4. Resell value. Battery is one of the most critical component on an EV. You might not able to resell it at a satisfaction price as you don’t have a battery, even it is fitted a leased one as the next owner need to pay the subscription continuously.

Actually, I’m not a fan of ICEV nor EV. ICEV pollutes when they run, EV pollutes when they need to be disassemble and recycle. It is simply not happening in front of your eyes doesn’t mean it is not. We all need to look at the overall carbon footprint (I can’t think of another better word), from manufacturing to the end of life. For EV and its battery, starts from mining rare earth elements.

I’m more on to the Hydrogen Vehicle, especially fuel cells. IMO the development in this low, and small (at least I don’t see much news about it).

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Hydrogen is a dead end. The only company left trying to chase that particular dragon is Toyota, and I predict eventually they’ll be forced to admit that it’ll never work en masse for private vehicles. Ordinary consumers can already barely be trusted with gasoline, which is neither under high pressure nor requires industrial grade refrigeration to keep it in liquid form, and is a lot harder to ignite… The delivery systems for hydrogen are extremely complex and must maintain an absolute 0% failure rate or else somebody will either get blown up or frozen to a pump. Gasoline is at least a liquid and behaves predictably when spilled, and doesn’t phase change instantly when it leaves containment. And a mechanical failure in the delivery system can be mitigated by simply shutting off the pump. You poke a hole in a hydrogen filling system and you’re going to have a very interesting time. Current systems have redundancies on top of safety devices on top of redundancies for this reason which makes them fantastically expensive.

Hydrogen also has crap for energy density (around 8 kJ/liter in liquid form, compared to 32 kJ/liter for gasoline) and even if you’re producing it via electrolysis or something is a wildly inefficient way to store and transport energy. If you’re going to use electricity to create and compress hydrogen to transport it and create electricity with it later, it is monumentally more efficient to take the electricity and put it in batteries. So you may as well just to that.

The thing with battery swapping is that it will absolutely require strong government regulation to ensure standardization and fair treatment of owners. Replaceable batteries in consumer devices obviously aren’t a new concept, and before proprietary lithium packs took over everything, every single consumer device was powered by AAA, AA, C, or D batteries which were very well understood by everybody and were – and are – completely interchangeable commodity items that are readily available to this day. That’s the only way it’ll work. Manufacturers will have to be forced to standardize on a set of pack sizes because without oversight they’ll inevitably try to turn everything into a subscription-only walled garden pretty much exactly as you have predicted. But if there is a thing as an equivalent of an AAA vehicle battery (for motorcycles and scooters), AA vehicle battery (for city microcars, NEV’s, golf carts, etc.) and C vehicle battery (full size passenger cars) and D vehicle battery (light trucks) etc., and nobody is allowed to try to make up their own bullshit, then no one will have to give a rat’s ass about battery health, the dealership, lock-in, or anything else. If you buy a used vehicle with a knackered pack in it or your battery gets cacked, you could just bop down to your local AutoZone or whatever and buy a new one. Or push your car to the nearest swap station. You’ll turn in your old one for the core charge. Exactly like how 12v vehicle batteries work now.

We’ll have to get people used to the notion that, yes, these things will be kind of a battery lottery and you may get swapped in a pack that’s in slightly worse condition than your last one if you go around pack-swapping all the time. But you know, the next time you swap you’ll get a different one again. And you can play already this game right now if you want to – just go buy some fuel in a third world country.

umami_wasbi ,

I still have faith in hydrogen vehicles. I have read somewhere I forgot that using fuel cell is the better way of using hydrogen, instead of burning it. It does have difficulties but maybe in next 5 yrs scientist and engineers may come up something breakthrough. But if none invest now, that won’t happen in the future.

And about regulation on standard battery, I fully support, but I can already see how those companies lobby and whine about how regulations will “limit innovations” and “slow development.” Then some politicans take some under table deals just like how the petro industary does today.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

FYI, there is no “better” way to use hydrogen that will result in extracting more energy from it than it physically contains and can be released via oxidation. This is not a matter of “development” or “breakthroughs.” It is physically impossible. The standard enthalpy change of combustion of hydrogen is 141.83 MJ/kg. Period. That’s it. That’s all you can ever get out of it, provided you achieve perfect efficiency (which currently we don’t). Ongoing research is surely working on getting is closer to 100% efficiency, but it will never get past it. You can’t defy the laws of physics.

Insofar as I am aware all current hydrogen vehicles already use fuel cells to generate electricity and use that to drive electric motors for motive power. No one is burning hydrogen in a combustion engine in vehicular applications. There are some power plants that are doing it, though, mostly as a mechanism for storing and later reusing excess energy generated from other sources. You can go cross-eyed reading up on it here, if you are so inclined.

There is the notion of the “hydrogen economy” floating around, that is the use of hydrogen as an energy storage and carrying medium – not, notably, as a fuel for actual generation of energy – but it’s pretty certain that outside of some limited applications this will always be a worse deal than just taking the energy in the form of electricity and putting it in a wire.

umami_wasbi ,

OK. I understand we can’t get more energy out of it. But maybe something without high pressure tank or industrial freezer to keep it in liquid form? I know I’m in a state of denial but I have a gut feeling that EV, at least with lithium batteries, shouldn’t be the way forward.

If hydrogen is really a dead end, maybe solid state batteries that doesn’t be a fire hazard and full charge in 5 minutes? Standardization of EV batteries are the way to go but I can see lots of resistance on the path.

raspberriesareyummy ,

Tesla drivers are c*nts anyways :p Focus on proper EVs.

Twentytwodividedby7 ,

The answer is massive government support. The cost of those stations has to be insane…imagine the inventory holding cost of those batteries

Kanda ,

Imagine the cost of stations everywhere that would have tanker-trucks deliver fluid that you’d put in cars

TheGrandNagus ,

Well yeah but the comparison here should be against a typical BEV. ICE cars are already being phased out regardless.

Twentytwodividedby7 ,

This is not comparable.

The fuel is spent and sold. Gas stations usually only have a few days supply of inventory.

This is like holding engines in inventory to swap without notice on the spot. But in this case the engines cost $10k+.

The fee to swap is about $12…so you have to swap each battery about 800 times to break even. See how you’re wrong yet?

UltraGiGaGigantic ,

Don’t worry, the US government will support its automakers by banning the competition.

That is, if they make totally cool and totally legal campaign contributions.

Competing is for the working class, not the 1%.

Revonult ,

I think swappable batteries could be a good solution to fires and probelms seen with long term battery health. Like if batteries were smaller and you swap it out rather than charging they could be inspected before being redistributed. In an ideal situation the cost of purchasing a battery would be removed from the vehicle price and shift to a subscription/interchange system. It could help consumers if their battery goes bad by not needing to buy a completly new one and prevent fires. Unfortunately, everything is terrible and I imagine this would inevitably turn to some kind of scummy, overpriced, preditory system. I am not sure if damage caused by batteries is enough to justify such a program but I think insurance companies and governments have or will look into it.

nilloc ,

They’ll make it illegal to charge your own battery. And enshitification will guarantee perpetually rising prices, lower and lower range batteries, or some combination of the 2.

ssj2marx ,

True. Over the past ten years, China has invested something like a trillion dollars into renewable energy through a combination of their state enterprises and public-private partnerships, and this is just one of the ways they’re reaping the dividends of that investment.

fubarx ,

Was waiting for Nio to make it state-side. Now, not so sure they will be allowed.

nondescripthandle ,

Youre going to buy poor QC american made giant electric monstrosities and you’re gonna like it.

vaultdweller013 ,

Or just save a couple bucks and go to a scrap yard and buy a car with a fucked engine, or no engine at depending how far into the process of being scrapped it is. Then convert it to electric.

narc0tic_bird ,

Ah so this is about swapping the battery on-the-go so you can get rid of your depleted one and get a freshly charged one within minutes.

That’s actually pretty cool then!

Not quite sure how this relates to Apple though.

Gsus4 OP ,
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

It’s a joke about how apple made their phone even thinner and the battery still isn’t removable :P

slaacaa ,

My colleague has a NIO car like this, he really likes it and uses the battery swap weekly. To my knowledge they have patented the tech.

If I bought an electric car, I would definitely consider NIO, as this option is great for long trips. In EU they have a couple of swap stations in Germany, but it’s still a long way to go in other countries.

umami_wasbi ,

I don’t oppose the idea of battery station, but who owns the battery then? When I bought the car, am I leasing the battery? How about used car?

pineapplelover ,

I guess it would either work like a subscription fee or a one time fee per swap

umami_wasbi ,

Subscription for my car? Don’t we have too much subscriptions already?

And neither solve the ownship problem, and a tons of other problems.

Brkdncr ,

Subscription for fuel.

umami_wasbi ,

Gas is more like pas-as-you-go. Battery no so sure. And they are different by nature: gas can’t be reused, batteries can.

Brkdncr ,

The energy inside both can’t be reused. Both a gas tank and battery can be refilled.

Gas is just easier to transfer between containers. Electricity needs it be moved inside its container.

umami_wasbi ,

Isn’t the whole thing about who owns the tank?

conciselyverbose ,

Electricity is incredibly easy to move between containers. That’s how electric cars work.

Making charging faster by removing most of the range (because you have way less volume to use if it’s removable) and making a cheap power source obscenely expensive makes no sense.

slaacaa , (edited )

You pay a monthly fee (lease) that contains a certain number of swaps per month, above which you pay extra. The car is also cheaper this way, as you are not paying the full price of the the battery up front

SpaceNoodle ,

No, you’re paying over and over for the battery.

Pips ,

Sort of like how you pay over and over for gas, without which your car doesn’t work?

SpaceNoodle ,

No, it’s like paying over and over for the gas tank.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

But for gas you don’t need to worry ownership problem as you can’t reuse gas. Once it is burnt, it’s gone.

Batteries are different because you can recharge it, which brings ownership problem into sight. And unlike gas tank for your grill, which the port is somewhat universal and shape doesn’t matter too much. Car batteries have wear level that affects performamce (range) and are likely designed to fit a car/platform. It isn’t that interchangeable.

best_username_ever ,

Even when I don’t use it? How is it acceptable?

Pips ,

I don’t see anywhere that you can’t also just buy a battery and charge it yourself if you’d prefer that over a subscription.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

Which the manufacture will either set a high price or simply not offer it. We had this in software (Adobe), and movies/TV shows (Netflix). Companies prefer continuous steady streams of revenue over burst because the numbers will look better for the investors, and easy to show them the solid future of the company.

I won’t be in the “Owns nothing and be happy” camp. Or honestly, rarely have things I do not own.

TAG ,
@TAG@lemmy.world avatar

The model only works if users are forced to subscribe to a battery swapping service for the full life of the vehicle (or there is a large upfront fee to join with a used vehicle). Otherwise it would be too easy for a consumer with a worn out battery to do a one-time swap and get a like-new battery as a cheap alternative to very costly battery repairs. The dumped battery is likely to have very poor range and the battery swap company will need to dispose of it.

Drewelite ,

In my head the batteries would work somewhat like the electric scooters you can rent around big cities. There would be battery companies that pay stations to stock their batteries. Then EV owners pay for the juice they used, plus a little extra for the wear, plus a little extra to make it worth it for the battery companies when they swap to a new battery. So you’re essentially renting the batteries.

Username ,

I would guess a swappable battery would be separated from the vehicle, similar to a gas bottle for a grill.

The battery would be rented for a small deposit and on swapping you only pay the energy + service fee.

I guess you could also buy one to own, but then could not swap that.

That’s how it would make sense, at least.

umami_wasbi ,

I will take ownership over leasing as a 200 miles range is more than enough for me. But you will see if the leasing model works out, they will only have leasing left for you as that’s a continous money flow. Or have the battery be super expensive to discourage you buy it.

slaacaa , (edited )

The company (NIO) owns them and you are leasing the batteries. The car is cheaper this way, as you don’t buy the battery up front, but pay a monthly fee (~200+ in Germany).

You have a fixed number of swaps per month, above that you have to pay extra.

Source: colleague uses a car like this and explained the details.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

What if they EOL the battery and stops the leasing program? Now the perfectly fine car is non functional because it’s missing a battery. If I replace it, I’m just contributing more waste, not in materal but energy. Is that the “green” future we all after?

MaggiWuerze , (edited )

I’d assume you could still charge them the regular way. You’d just no longer get a fresh one, but that just puts you on par with the other EVs

umami_wasbi ,

The ownership is still questionable. Even if that’s the case, you’re stuck with the battery you last swapped in, which you don’t know the wear level or how long it will last.

best_username_ever ,

I hope it’s not 200€ but it’s way higher than what I pay for the gas.

take6056 ,

It’s been a while since I’ve watched it myself, but remember them going into the ownership structure.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w

There’s basically no way for them to not make it a subscription model.

tankplanker ,

Renault tried leasing the batteries in EV in an effort to lower the initial cost of the car while increasing their tail for future owners. They abandoned it only a few years in as it was a disaster for their used market that got worse the older the car got as nobody wanted the ongoing cost. Only the initial owner saved money, and only if they managed to use PCP finance with a balloon set before Renault realised that the battery leased cars would be worth significantly less.

Renault also did not like that with older cars they would be liable for the battery replacement far sooner than they planned as they (initially) had a higher percentage unusable before they had to do a free replacement vs. a normal battery warranty, made worse as a leased battery has a warranty as long as you are paying the lease.

Renault could repossess the car if you stopped paying the battery lease and refused to buy it out. Its like any car finance that puts a lien or similar on the car, you do not own it till its gone.

BastingChemina , (edited )

Yeah, when I wanted to buy an electric car I look at the used market for the Renault Zoe but I quickly gave up.

The idea of paying a monthly subscription on a used car quickly turned me off and buying the leased battery back from Renault was prohibitively expensive.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

That just proofs my point in lemmy.ml/comment/11726077

Once they get you on the hook, they can only provide the subscription option, much like how software (Adobe, I’m looking at you) does today. Or have the one-time purchase option be super expensive to lure customers into the subscription model.

Simply because continous revenue is batter then a one-time purchase.

falkerie71 ,
@falkerie71@sh.itjust.works avatar

So I can give an example. Here in Taiwan, Gogoro has put up a lot of battery swap stations for their electric scooters. When you buy the scooter, it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own. Or, you can buy a monthly subscription on top of it that gives you access to those battery stations, where you can ride up to one and swap a pair of freshly charged batteries into your scooter. Subscription price is tiered by Ah per month, if you go over the limit you pay extra per Ah.

In this case, yes I think Gogoro is in charge of maintaining/replacing old batteries. Subscription is separate from the scooter cost, so buying used should not affect your ability to subscribe to the plan.

Gsus4 OP ,
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

I love that system

umami_wasbi , (edited )

it comes with removable batteries which you can charge on your own

so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription? That looks promising.

However, this works for scooters is because the battery pack is small enough for hand carry and install. It won’t be on typical 4-wheel vehicles as those are about a thousand pound. Even if we can modular and miniaturize it like how Gogoro does, where to install it is a big problem. Obviously we can’t install it in the front compartment as that will be a fire hazard when crash.

falkerie71 ,
@falkerie71@sh.itjust.works avatar

so it is your battery and got additional batteries you can swap on the road with a subscription?

No, you don’t get additional batteries. Once you start using the swapping service, the battery that came with your scooter goes into circulation. I suppose when you decide to stop subscribing to the service, the batteries that you have currently will be yours to keep. (I don’t own a Gogoro btw)

Yeah, and I agree that this system works great with scooters but not for cars.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

Shame. It will be nice if I get a set of batteries I know well when the scooter used less frequently and charging at home makes more sense. Rather gambling on what’s the quality/wear level of the next set will be.

Guess that’s how they introduce new batteries into the system, and cost them lesser. As long as there are new scooter owners and using the service, there will always be new batteries entering the circulation. All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.

falkerie71 ,
@falkerie71@sh.itjust.works avatar

Ratger gambling on what’s the quality/wear level of the next set will be.

You shouldn’t need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it’s priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).

All they have to do is pull out old batteries not fit for using out of the loop, and maybe repurpose them for something else, like grid power storage system.

That’s the idea!

umami_wasbi ,

You shouldn’t need to worry about getting bad batteries. Since it’s priced at an Ah/month basis (there are also km ridden per month plans), you can swap batteries whenever you feel like it. It is on Gogoro to maintain the health of the batteries, and swap in new ones when they go bad (or upgrade battery versions!).

I mean when I use the scooter less frequently (maybe I got a bigger car) or live somewhere else doesn’t have the station, thus canceling the subscription. On that, I guess I will be stuck on the last battery set I swapped in.

falkerie71 ,
@falkerie71@sh.itjust.works avatar

Ah I see. So I took a quick look at their contract and some articles, the ownership of the batteries is with Gogoro during your plan, and they give you the option to pause this plan (30 days minimum a time, 90 days max per year). If you decide to pause or cancel the plan, you will have to return the batteries you currently have, and they will give you spare batteries in return. I don’t think you’ll be guaranteed good batteries either way.

umami_wasbi , (edited )

Lol. I buy a new vehicle, put new batteries into the circulation, and when I terminate, I got an old set they specify which I have no idea what the wear level is. If I got to keep the last set swapped in, I atleast know how good/bad it performs.

No thanks.

SupraMario ,

It’s not just that, its what happens if you get a battery from a guy named roger who said he knows what he’s doing and fucked with it?

Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.

Gsus4 OP ,
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

There are already plenty of shady car mechanics named roger who can swindle you out there…

SupraMario ,

Yea, sure but that doesn’t effect me because I have the chance to know who’s working on my car, you don’t if you habe battery swapping going on.

SpaceCadet ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

Battery swapping sounds great, until you put it into a real world scenario.

Government regulation and standardization is the answer.

You know, like fossil fuels also are. For example fuelpumps have to be legally calibrated so that they measure accurately, and there are a myriad of quality standards and ratings regarding what 98 octane or 95 octane or diesel fuel or whatever can contain.

SupraMario ,

How does this solve the issue of roger fucking with his battery and then you ending up with it during a battery swap? You do realize how many states with counties have no inspections right?

SpaceCadet ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.

For example: I once pumped petrol in my diesel car due to human error by the gas station’s supply company (they put petrol in the diesel tanks). They found out about the error as I was filling up and stopped me halfway, so luckily I had no engine damage, but they had to pay for the tow and to get my tank emptied.

how many states with counties have no inspections

Sounds more like a “your government is shit” problem than a “this scheme can’t work” problem.

SupraMario ,

Quality control on batteries that go out to customers, and make the stations legally liable.

Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?

Sounds more like a “your government is shit” problem than a “this scheme can’t work” problem.

It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.

Revonult ,

Gas gets to the gas station somehow. Obviously it isn’t the same as transporting batteries back and forth but it’s bad faith to say this is completely unprecedented logistics problem. I am under the impression that battery health could be screened at the swap facility and would require a small subset to be returned to a hub for additional inspection or repair.

SupraMario ,

Yea gas is a one way trip, and then it’s into the end customer. It’s not an unprecedented logistics problem, it’s just a logistics problem that ends up requiring a ton of more energy. Batteries need to be able to charge way quicker and hold a longer charge, that’s the problem that should be getting worked, not a how to transport battery packs around.

AA5B ,

And that is being worked on. Billions of dollars has been going there. We have solid state batteries in the lab that can charge much faster and safer, and all sorts of companies promising to bring them to production in a couple of years. Do people really think we’re farther from that being reality than from building out an entirely new global infrastructure that will become obsolete before it’s completed?

SupraMario ,

The issue is we haven’t had real breakthroughs in battery tech since the 70s, we’ve gotten slightly better improvements but we’re still using the same base. We’ve had tons of promises in the lab but nothing has actually made it out. Hopefully there will be a breakthrough but so far there hasn’t been.

AA5B ,

Maybe you should take a look at some these charts, especially power density and cost

There have been huge improvements

SupraMario ,

They got heavier to hold more charge. Nothing in any of these charts proves the tech has advanced drastically since the 70s. Seriously the 2nd chart just says they got cheaper basically for how much you get. That’s like saying HDDs are cheaper now more than ever, but still use a spinning disk technology… it’s like we never leaped to SSDs. That’s the jump we need.

AA5B ,

Did you notice the charts showing Wh/kg? Since 1991, the charge a battery can hold per weight has gone up 500%, even while prices have dropped a similar percentage. That’s huge, and that’s what makes EVs (and even smartphones) so practical now, but not back then. We have made that jump

SupraMario ,

Yes it’s still not enough, that’s been my whole point, all we’ve done is like if SSDs were never invented. Like we’re still stuck on spinning disk tech. We’re still lacking the charge speed and the range. Yes batteries are better than 1970s when the current design was created, but we haven’t made that jump from HDD to SSD.

Revonult ,

Truck still has to go somewhere. Obviously it’s lighter but it doesn’t blip out of existence. Amazon trucks to back to hub after delivery, FedEx, USPS. Both technologies can advance simultaneously and mutually.

Edit: some wording

SupraMario ,

I’m expecting drones to take a ton of the short space deliveries sooner than EV trucks.

AA5B , (edited )

To me, this is the biggest argument against battery swapping.

We have this huge industry for refining, storing, distributing, distributing ending gasoline that we can entirely dismantle with EVs. All that pollution: gone. All that wasted land: gone. All those unnecessary levels of profit-seeking: gone. Now you want to choose a technology that requires rebuilding all that, except two way? You want to force the new technology to conform to old infrastructure ideas?

How can we not prefer the alternative of “just plug it in wherever you are”? How can we not prefer the rare opportunity of simplifying something? How can we not forgo all those unnecessary profit seekers?

Revonult ,

At the moment my two biggest fears against buying an EV is it catching fire in my garage and it dying after 5 years then having to buy a 30k battery. Once technology advances that doesn’t happen I will buy and I would love your plan. Why can’t this be a stop gap?

AA5B , (edited )

It already doesn’t happen.

  • while there have been fires and they do burn hot and self oxidize, it’s more rare than for ICE cars and usually caused by physical damage.
  • my EV battery is warranted for 8 years, 100k miles, and some are higher
  • my Tesla battery could be replaced for $15k, and it’s been decreasing over time, so half what you fear
  • batteries usually don’t just die: end of life is usually set at 70% health, meaning you can keep using it with reduced range

Swappable batteries can’t be a stop gap because it would require a huge infrastructure buildout over many years that would become a lost investment, versus technology that’s already here and improving every year. Starting from scratch with swap stations, vehicle design, industry standards, vs hundreds of thousands of charging stations already deployed.

If you think chargers aren’t available enough or expanding enough, consider that they’re known technology, relatively cheap, installable by any electrician, using a national power infrastructure that already exists. Installing a level 2 charger at my house was equivalent to a new stove circuit. I mean I agree we need to speed up the buildout, but think how cheap and easy these are compared to developing an entire new infrastructure from scratch. How simple a ”plug” is compared to a robot that can handle a one ton battery. How long it took to standardize an effing plug, compared to standardizing entire battery packs. How can anyone think this would go faster?

Revonult ,

I looked more into fires and battery replacement and agree with your stats, much appreciated for the info.

However, I never said it swappable would be faster for expanding. I said it was safer and allow for battery integrity evaluation. I agree the ideal solution would be chargers in homes as long as battery health and saftey are reasonable which they already reaching that point.

I see alot of talk in these threads about how bad it would be to make infrastructure and need to invest. But our current infrastructure didn’t just show up. I bet when the first cars came out people with horses said the same thing. Thinking how much it would cost to build all these gas stations and refineries. Investment will have to happen and EV is the future. Obviously home chargers are cheaper and again the ideal solution as technology advances and the grid can keep up.

SpaceCadet ,
@SpaceCadet@feddit.nl avatar

Ah, so you’re wanting to transport tons and tons of batteries back to a centralized facility to be inspected and have testing done?

No, that’s just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.

Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can’t easily mess with it, just like you normally don’t mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home. QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they’ve dispensed.

We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.

It’s not a gov problem, it’s a logistics issue.

  1. The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn’t in Backwater USA is no argument.
  2. Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.
SupraMario ,

No, that’s just something new you invented to shoot down the idea.

So each swap station is going to have batteries techs that know what the fuck they’re doing, checking on every battery that comes in?

Batteries can have a tamperproof seal so that customers can’t easily mess with it, just like you normally don’t mess with the electricity, gas or water meter in your home.

What world do you live in? People fuck with their houses all the time, its why you get an inspection when you buy a home(even if most inspectors only find the shit on the surface).

QC and charging can be done on site where you swap, and can mostly be automated. The only thing that needs to be transported back and forth regularly are defective and replacement batteries. Just like gas stations at the end of the day or week need to order replenishment for the fuel they’ve dispensed.

Again so you’re going to have ever charge station have basically certified battery engineers that can check out battery systems that come in? Are you also planning on forcing the EV makers into standardized battery packs?

We already do this kind of swapping with other stuff as well: from crates with empty beer bottles and office water cooler bottles to refilling propane and butane bottles.

Cool, when is the last time you saw an empty beer bottle truck catch fire because roger fucked with his miller lite?

  1. The lack of government oversight that you brought up, and which this was in reply to, is literally a government issue. Regulation and inspection works fine in most of the civilized world, the fact that it doesn’t in Backwater USA is no argument.

Ah so only in good ol EU do you guys not have car crashes and house fires because regulation has solved that shit.

  1. Fossil fuel distribution already is a huge logistics issue, we have to dig it up in the middle east, transport it in oil tankers, refine it at some central locations, then distribute it again with tanker trucks to millions of gas stations so that finally you can put it in your car and use it to drive somewhere, but somehow we have been making that work for over a century.

Cool, whataboutism got it…the real problem you should be talking about is how quickly you can charge a battery and how long it’ll last on said charge…not let’s re-invent the wheel…

AA5B ,

As opposed to quality control from the manufacturer, once for the life of the vehicle, before you even buy, and with a long warranty?

…… that already exists?

wagoner , (edited )

With my EV I follow recommended practice to ensure longevity of the battery. I rarely charge it more than halfway as I don’t need to for my regular usage, and I avoid letting it run down entirely. Once you engage in battery swapping, where’s the incentive to take care of it well? After my first swap my brand new excellent condition battery is replaced by who knows what.

SupraMario ,

Exactly, this is the equivalent of tire swaps…my tires I take care of and rotate and replace when the tread is worn down, the hell do I want someone’s else batteries being in my car that could end up having a short lift or explode on me.

Revonult ,

The charger would have some inspection capability. Maybe not physical integrity of the casing but certainly the voltag and current outputs and connectivity of cells which could would correlate to health.

SupraMario ,

Ok, roger shows up dumps his shit battery or ticking time bomb and gets a free battery out of it. Do you plan on requiring everyone to show ID and get a face scan?

TAG ,
@TAG@lemmy.world avatar

That is why they make you lease the battery. You cannot swap out your old battery, just the battery you are leasing. Your lease payments include the cost of them replacing batteries.

SupraMario ,

What stops people from messing with their leased batteries?

AA5B ,

So now we’re tacking on government regulation and certifications, an independent reaction regime? On top of building out a global infrastructure carrying around batteries that each way a ton, supporting robotics to manipulate those batteries, getting everyone to agree to use the same batteries, etc? Compared to “plug it in wherever you are”?

Battery swapping is a cool idea and there may be equipment that needs it, but it would just make personal vehicles more complicated and expensive with little gain

umami_wasbi ,

I can already hear a mile away lobbyist paid by the manufactures rubbing their hands arguing standardization “limits innovations” and “slow developments.”

HelixDab2 ,

That’s like asking who owns a propane tanks for your grill. You own it while you have it.

When you get a new batter, you own the new one, and relinquish ownership of the previous one, paying for the electricity that’s on the new battery. AS LONG AS the battery that you’re relinquishing is substantially identical to the new battery.

umami_wasbi ,

That “substantially identical” is up for heavy debate.

HelixDab2 ,

Sure. If you’ve abused it in some way so that it doesn’t take or hold charge, then you might have to pay for a replacement battery. But I think there would be an implied warranty when you’re given a replacement, that the replacement was fit for service. And the company might just have to roll the cost or replacing batteries every so often into their electricity pricing models.

WereCat ,

Not just about “who owns it?” but also how does it work with insurance if something goes terribly wrong and who will bear the responsibility?

MedicPigBabySaver ,

“Battery Station” vs. “Gas Station” should’ve been a no brainer from day one.

Next best plan should be “electric roads” that are powered by green tech.

Of course it all would be massively expensive. Sadly, it’s clear that the powers that be to protect Earth’s climate do not give a shit.

Gsus4 OP , (edited )
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

Highways could totally have power lines overhead…the problem is just finding the best way of getting it to the car safely (I don’t like the trolley-style solution).

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Not sure what the “trolley style” is.

My exposure to electric roads are electro-magnetic rails under the road that provide a constant electric field that cars drive over.

Honestly, I think it may be possible to build entire roads with enough crushed metal elements in the asphalt/concrete and a slight low power charge throughout the entire surface would be able to keep any vehicle battery at a steady charge.

But, I’m not a scientist/engineer/electrical specialist, etc …

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

Trolly style = hooking on to an over-road power line.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4084b21c-c9e3-4226-a678-acd02980ec14.jpeg

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Yes, I should’ve known. It was a popular thing in my area with a bus line that stopped just within the past 3 years.

sushibowl , (edited )

Honestly, I think it may be possible to build entire roads with enough crushed metal elements in the asphalt/concrete and a slight low power charge throughout the entire surface would be able to keep any vehicle battery at a steady charge.

You might be underestimating how much power a car consumes while driving. For example, a Tesla model 3 has an efficiency of about 130 Wh/km in mild weather at highway speeds. Assuming that on the highway you’ll travel 100 km/h, that means you’ll use 130*100 = 13.000 Wh/h, a constant power draw of 13kW. That’s enough to power perhaps 8-12 houses on average.

A km of road could have, let’s say, 200 cars on it (4 lanes, 20m per car). That means you’d need to pump about 2.6 megawatts of power into every kilometer of road to keep them all topped up.

EDIT: fucked up math

Sentient_Modem ,

Does using a period in your number not cause confusion? 13.000 vs 13,000. I first read it is 13 since the zeros mean nothing following a period where im from. No shade, just curious.

sushibowl ,

Apologies. I’m from a country where the meaning of the period and comma is reversed compared to the US, so I did it this way out of habit.

Sentient_Modem ,

No need to apologize. I didn’t know they were reversed. Do yall do periods for three digits? 1.000.000,00?

sushibowl ,

Yup, just like that

Crashumbc ,

And that doesn’t seem to take into account transmission losses. Even the best wireless phone chargers are maybe 70% efficient. This may hit 40% if you’re lucky. So double that figure.

frezik ,

It’s a no brainier, until you deal with standardizing the battery and attachment mechanisms across many manufacturers. Then figuring out the machines necessary to automate the process of removing the battery and swapping in a new one. Then dealing with people who abuse their battery and bringing them to EOL early. Then deploying all of that nationwide.

Oh, and it limits where you can place the battery. You can’t integrate it into the frame, which has some big advantages in reducing weight.

Conversely, charging stations are relatively easy. You need to standardize the plug, which ain’t nothing, but it’s far easier than an entire battery release mechanism. The charge stations themselves aren’t much more than a transformer, some high voltage electronics, and some controls. Again, not nothing, but way easier than an automated garage for battery replacement.

Charge stations were always going to be able to race way ahead in deployment timelines, and we still don’t have enough of them. If we had focused on battery swap stations, we’d be even further behind.

downpunxx ,

fuck china, whatever they're saying they did is a lie

Gsus4 OP , (edited )
@Gsus4@programming.dev avatar

Nah, we already use it:

nio.com/…/NIO-reaches-30-Power-Swap-Stations-in-E…

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w

We just need to get our heads out of the sand and take these challenges from China seriously in the EU and the US with proper coordinated reindustrialization policies. Tariffs and bans only buy us time.

CraigeryTheKid ,

I know it’s not “apples to apples” but swapping giant forktruck batteries (I assume they were lead-acid) has been done for decades too. I think we did it at Sam’s Club, at least for when the batteries wouldn’t charge.

Imgonnatrythis ,

I think it’s great to see this happening. I’ve always thought this option makes sense. I still wish the solution was a drone that comes right to you and drops a battery into a port on your roof while you are still driving, but I guess that is going to have to wait.

DudeDudenson ,

I can see so many issues with what you’re proposing, but hey auto grenade dropping drones have great military application

Wogi ,

I want to see someone try.

Not because it’s practical, or because it makes sense. But because it sounds like it makes sense but I’m practice would be so impractical and hard that the solution would be absolutely hilarious.

You’re driving along the freeway at 70 miles an hour, and a jet powered super drone rockets along side the car carrying a 2000 pound brick of lithium and drops it on top of you like a fucking dump truck. The shock crushes the cheap Chinese car like a can of soda and the sudden change in weight sends the drone careening off in to the air at a reasonable percentage of mach 1. The last thing you see on this earth as your brain matter is squeezed out of your eye sockets like toothpaste is a wide eyed driver in the car next to you.

The resulting pile up kills 4 people immediately, and several more later as they get caught in an expanding wave of lithium battery fires that either burn them to death or suck all of the oxygen out of the air.

PostnataleAbtreibung ,

Sounds good. Let’s work on the business plan. ;)

cyd ,

Did the car get successfully recharged though?

billiam0202 ,

It certainly had more chemical energy added to it, so… yes?

Imgonnatrythis ,

Gotta start somewhere right?

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