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roguetrick , in Average GitHub PR
philluminati , in The C++ learning process

This is so believable. You copy a few examples out of a textbook using cout and cin and it seems reasonably inline with other languages.

mindbleach , in The C++ learning process

C is dangerous like your uncle who drinks and smokes. Y’wanna make a weedwhacker-powered skateboard? Bitchin’! Nail that fucker on there good, she’ll be right. Get a bunch of C folks together and they’ll avoid all the stupid easy ways to kill somebody, in service to building something properly dangerous. They’ll raise the stakes from “accident” to “disaster.” Whether or not it works, it’s gonna blow people away.

C++ is dangerous like a quiet librarian who knows exactly which forbidden tomes you’re looking for. He and his… associates… will gladly share all the dark magic you know how to ask about. They’ll assure you, oh no no no, the power cosmic would never turn someone inside-out, without sufficient warning. They don’t question why a loving god would allow the powers you crave. They will show you which runes to carve, and then, they will hand you the knife.

RedWeasel , in The C++ learning process

I started to learn C++ once, had semester and couldn’t wrap my head around the object oriented part. At some point I looked at learning objective C on my own, though I didn’t really use it. I had a 1000x better understanding after an hour.

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

I learned it while at the same time learning (or really enhancing my previous knowledge of) javascript, thanks to an insane mostly-Finnish app development platform known as Qt Creator, which for no rational reason uses C++ for the under-hood-stuff and javascript for the UI front end. Just an absolutely horrible mismatch of mental states. For bonus points, the company that I worked for that used this monstrosity for its suite of apps got purchased by a huge west coast company and the apps were shut down and everybody was fired, after two years of my working on this shit.

tiredofsametab ,

Something like ruby is a pretty quick way to get up and running with something easy and object-oriented. Groovy if you already have a jvm running (though ruby might be easier depending upon your background)

FlorianSimon ,

Is Groovy still a thing?

tiredofsametab ,

I would assume so. Grails basically died to SpringBoot (which I thought was sad from years ago as I thought grails did some things better), but I mainly have worked in Go for the last 5 years and a lot of PHP and Java in the 5 before that (then Grails, J2EE, Perl, ASP (pre-dot-net), etc. before all that).

itsmegeorge , in The C++ learning process

In my country C++ is taught as a base language along with Scratch(not a language, but yk what I mean). I recently started learning Kotlin with Jetpack Compose (the only sane way to learn Kotlin) and I realized I wasted two years of my life learning C++, with 5 more to come as it is mandatory in ICT classes… :((

huzzahunimpressively ,

Which programming language would you like to teach if you were a teacher? P.D I also learned C++ as my first language

boonhet ,

I’m not a teacher, and I don’t want to become one tbh.

That said, something like Python is standard, and for good reason IMO. For OOP they usually teach Java here, though I’m not a huge fan. I think Kotlin would be better to teach nowadays. There are other OO languages of course, but I’m of the opinion that after messing around with Python, students should probably use something strongly typed, so that’s JavaScript out - I suppose TypeScript could be used, but IMO it’d be best to keep JS/TS in a web dev specific course.

kirk781 ,
@kirk781@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

C++ was my second programming language after BASIC, if that still qualifies as a programming language these days.

AI_toothbrush ,

Idk about other people but just learning c is so logical. You do stupid shit, you get stupid results. Of course there are a lot of bad things with c but at least when you sit down to understand how it works, it works while most oop languages are so detached from the hardware its hard to understand anything. It might be just me but oop breaks my brain. Also ive never coded in c++ but i automatically avoided it. I heard rust has very minimal oop and its just to make things smoother so i may try that.

AI_toothbrush ,

In hungary its python and c++ in the curriculum but on the tests you can usually choose between a few languages.

UpperBroccoli , in The C++ learning process

They are still using Reddit, so one has to wonder if they have not abandoned sanity and intellect a long time ago.

Tyfud , in The C++ learning process

Unfortunately, those of us that make games in Unreal Engine are stuck writing a lot of C++, unless we want to do everything in BPs (no thanks, they’re fine, but it’s not coding, and it’s difficult to maintain and refactor for complicated projects, they’re good for taking C++ components and building bigger components out of the base C++ functionality though).

With that said, UE’s support for C++ is decent. Which is, that as long as you tag all your fields, properties, methods, classes, etc. with some UnrealEngine attribute filter (like UCLASS or UPROPERTY), Unreal will handle the memory management of those constructs for you. Which is nice.

Unfortunately it has some other limitations to the C++ language that you can’t work around, like disallowing pure abstracts because every C++ derivative class based on any UE construct (Actor, Character, Pawn, etc.) has to be instantiatable in the editor. So no pure abstracts and such.

In general, I’d give it a 6/10.

It’s still mostly C++, but some of the things suck less.

n3cr0 , in The C++ learning process

Jokes aside, I struggle more with abominations like JavaScript and even Python.

mogoh ,

Do you have a minute for our lord and savoir TypeScript?

n3cr0 ,

As long as it can distinguish between int and uint - yesss!

Zangoose ,

TypeScript is still built on JavaScript, all numbers are IEEE-754 doubles 🙃

Edit: Actually I lied, there are BigInts which are arbitrarily precise integers but I don’t think there’s a way to make them unsigned. There also might be a byte-array object that stores uint8 values but I’m not completely sure if I’m remembering that correctly.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Not only is there a UInt8Array, there’s also a bunch of others: developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/…/TypedArray#typ…

unionagainstdhmo OP ,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Yeah JavaScript is a bit weird, semicolons being optional and compulsory at the same time: I remember trying to build an electron example ~5yrs ago and it didn’t work unless I put in the semicolons which the developers omitted.

Python is just glorified shell scripting. Libraries like numpy are cool but I don’t like the indentation crap, I’m getting used to it because University likes it.

flying_sheep ,
@flying_sheep@lemmy.ml avatar

Python is just glorified shell scripting

Absolutely not, python is an actual programming language with sane error handling and arbitrarily nestable data structures.

I don’t like the indentation crap

Don’t be so superficial. When learning something, go with the flow and try to work with the design choices, not against them.

Python simply writes a bit differently: you do e.g. more function definitions and list comprehensions.

unionagainstdhmo OP ,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Yeah I meant for that to be a bit inflammatory. I actually don’t mind python apart from the execution speed, but the indentation I find makes it more difficult to read stuff that is extremely nested. I use it mostly for creating plots and basic stuff for my science degree but for any serious project I wouldn’t consider it

UndercoverUlrikHD ,

but I don’t like the indentation crap

Do you not use indentation in other languages?

unionagainstdhmo OP ,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Yes but it’s difficult in a long program to tell which scope you are in or where one ends. I don’t know what is so unfriendly about { and }, my editor can highlight pairs of them, it’s just nicer to work with.

void_star ,

Python has its quirks, but it’s much much cleaner than js or c++, not fair to drag it down with them imo

tunetardis ,

I think the thing with C++ is they have tried to maintain backward compatibility from Day 1. You can take a C++ program from the 80s (or heck, even a straight up C program), and there’s a good chance it will compile as-is, which is rather astonishing considering modern C++ feels like a different language.

But I think this is what leads to a lot of the complexity as it stands? By contrast, I started Python in the Python 2 era, and when they switched to 3, I was like “Wow, did they just break hello world?” It’s a different philosophy and has its trade-offs. By reinventing itself, it can get rid of the legacy cruft that never worked well or required hacky workarounds, but old code will not simply run under the new interpreter. You have to hope your migration tools are up to the task.

0x0 ,

even a straight up C program

C++ is not a superset of C.

tunetardis ,

There were breaking changes between C and C++ (and some divergent evolution since the initial split) as well as breaking changes between different releases of C++ itself. I am not saying these never happened, but the powers that be controlling the standard have worked hard to minimize these for better or worse.

If I took one of my earliest ANSI C programs from the 80s and ran it through a C++23 compiler, I would probably need to remove a bunch of register statements and maybe check if an assumption of 16-bit int is going to land me in some trouble, but otherwise, I think it would build as long as it’s not linking in any 3rd party libraries.

jaybone ,

The terse indexing and index manipulation gets a bit Perl-ish and write-only to me. But other than that I agree.

unionagainstdhmo OP , (edited ) in The C++ learning process
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Disclaimer: I actually like C++ the language, I’m reasonably comfortable with it and enjoy it as an upgrade from C. I don’t use much OOP stuff as I’m writing a game using the flecs ECS. So things like abstract classes are mostly absent from my codebase.

What has been driving me up the wall the last month has been build systems and dependencies: don’t get me wrong; meson is great but the problem is not everyone uses meson. All I want to do is add some library built with cmake as a dependency without needing to rewrite the build system or install it on my OS. Apparently that is too much to ask!

I’m seriously considering dropping everything and jumping to Rust because of Cargo. Yes I’ve tried setting up conan but not having much fun since the recipes are all third party and out of date anyways

magic_lobster_party ,

So things like abstract classes are mostly absent from my codebase.

I believe the consensus nowadays is that abstract classes should be avoided like the plague even in languages like Java and C#.

void_star ,

I have not heard this consensus. Definitely inheritance where the base class holds data or multiple inheritance, but I thought abstract was still ok. Why is it bad?

magic_lobster_party ,

In 99% of the cases, inheritance can easily be replaced with composition and/or interfaces. Abstract classes tend to cause hard dependencies that are tough to work with.

I’m not sure why you would use abstract classes without data. Just use interfaces.

Zangoose ,

The way I was taught was that you usually start off with only an interface and then implementing classes, and then once you have multiple similar implementations it could then make sense to move the common logic into an abstract class that doesn’t get exposed outside of the package

magic_lobster_party ,

I usually break it out using composition if that’s ever needed. Either by wrapping around all the implementations, or as a separate component that is injected into each implementation.

SpaceNoodle ,

How do you implement an interface in C++ without an abstract class?

magic_lobster_party ,

Ask Bjarne to add interfaces enough many times until he gives in.

On a more serious note, I’m not exactly sure what the best C++ practice is. I guess you just have to live with abstract classes if you really want interfaces.

SpaceNoodle ,

An abstract class with no member variables serves the same purpose in C++.

magic_lobster_party ,

The only problem is to ensure the entire team agrees to only use it like an interface and nothing else. But I guess that’s the only proper way to do it in C++, for now.

affiliate ,

this seems like the only proper way to do anything in C++. it’s a language where there’s 5 ways to do 1 thing and 1 way to do 5 things.

SpaceNoodle ,

That’s not really the job of the language, though. If they can’t read the design docs and source annotations, they don’t really have any business touching anything.

pelya ,

I know at least three ways, one of them involves variadic macros.

You don’t even need to look that far, take any sufficiently aged library, like OpenGL.

SpaceNoodle ,

It was rhetorical.

pelya ,

Yet I still had an urge to explain an obvious thing. Because it’s C++, so everyhing goes. There are even tools to auto-generate C++ interfaces, because of course someone decided that C++ is inadequate and must be improved using some kind of poorly-documented ad-hoc extension language on top of C++.

jaybone ,

Say List is an interface.

You have implementations like ArrayList and LinkedList.

Many of those method implementations will differ. But some will be identical. The identical ones go in the abstract base class, so you can share method implementation inheritance without duplicating code.

That’s why.

magic_lobster_party ,

If the lists have shared components then that can be solved with composition. It’s semantically the same as using abstract classes, but with the difference that this code dependency doesn’t need to be exposed to the outside. This makes the dependency more loosely coupled.

jaybone ,

In my example, how is the code dependency exposed to the outside? The caller only knows about the List interface in my example.

magic_lobster_party ,

In your example, the declaration of ArrayList look like:

public class ArrayList extends AbstractList implements List {
}

The dependence on AbstractList is public. Any public method in AbstractList is also accessible from the outside. It opens up for tricky dependencies that can be difficult to unravel.

Compare it with my solution:

public class ArrayList implements List {
    private AbstractList = new AbstractList();
}

Nothing about the internals of ArrayList is exposed. You’re free to change the internals however you want. There’s no chance any outside code will depend on this implementation detail.

SpaceNoodle ,

That’s not C++, which has more control over such scope.

void_star ,

Perhaps we have a terminology mismatch, I tend to use abstract class and interface interchangeably. I’m not sure it’s possible to define a class interface in c++ without using inheritance, what kind of interface are you referring to that doesn’t use inheritance?

ugo ,

You do have a terminology mismatch. In C++, an abstract class is a class with at least one pure virtual method.

Such classes cannot be instantiated, so they are useful only as base classes.

An interface is more of a concept than a thing.

Sure you can say that Iterable is an interface that provides the Next() and Prev() methods and you can say that Array is an Iterable because it inherits from Iterable (and then you override those methods to do the correct thing), and that’s one way to implement an interface in C++.

But you can also say that Iterable<T> is a class template that provides a Next() and Prev() methods that call the methods of the same name on the type that they wrap (CRTP aka static polymorphism).

Or you can say that an algorithm that scans a collection T forward requires the collection to have a Next() method by calling Next() on it.

And I can think of at least 2 other ways to define an interface that isn’t using abstract classes.

And even if using abstract classes, inheriting from them is definitely the least flexible way to use them to define an interface, because it doesn’t allow one to do something like mocking functionality in tests, because it’s not possible to redefine the class to be tested to inherit from the test interface implementation with mocked functionality, so one still needs something to the effect of dependency injection anyway.

So yeah, abstract class is very different from inheritance, and it’s also very different from interface, even though it relates to both.

void_star ,

I agree, my terms aren’t perfect, but as you stated there isn’t really such a thing as an interface in c++, traditionally this is achieved via an abstract base class which is what I meant by using them interchangeably.

I know there are many things you can do in c++ to enforce an interface, but tying this back to the original comment that inheritance is objectively bad, I don’t think there’s any consensus that this is true. Abstract base classes (with no data members) and CRTP are both common use cases of inheritance in modern C++ codebases and are generally considered good design patterns.

ugo ,

Meh. Been developing professionally with C++ for 10 years at this point. I’m one of the weird people that kinda likes C++ and its pragmatism despite all its warts.

I’d like C++ better if it didn’t have inheritance. There are better solutions to model interfaces, and without inheritance people can’t write class hierarchies that are 10 levels deep with a different set of virtual functions overridden (and new virtual functions added) at each level.

And yes, that is not hypothetical. Real codebases in the real world shipping working products do that, and it’s about as nice as you can imagine.

jorp , (edited )

I don’t think it’s what the person you’re replying to meant, but template metaprogramming in modern c++ allows the use of “duck typing” aka “static polymorphism” where you can code against an interface without requiring inheritance.

void_star ,

Typically this is done with CRTP which does require inheritance. But I agree, you can do some meta programming or use concepts which can enforce interfaces in a different way. But back to the original comment that interfaces via inheritance are objectively bad, I don’t think there’s any consensus that this is true. And pure virtual interfaces and CRTP are both common use cases of inheritance in modern C++ codebases and are generally considered good design patterns.

Doom4535 ,

Rust’s cargo is great, I’d say it would be best to make the switch sooner rather than later once your code base is established. The build system and tooling alone is a great reason to switch

unionagainstdhmo OP ,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

What sucks is I’ve been working on this hobby project for nearly 4 years now. It started in C#, moved to C, now C++. It’s at the stage where a lot of basic functionality has been implemented, with the largest component, the Vulkan based renderer being maybe 1/4 implemented. The core game stuff is ECS based and flecs has a rust binding so migrating that will be easy. Renderer will just become even further from completion. I’m worried that there will be new problems that are maybe more inhibiting, but this is meant to be a fun project and build systems aren’t fun. It’s a difficult balance and I’m not the only person involved, the other person isn’t as convinced by cargo as they haven’t spent days working on the build system

CptBread ,

I’m a gameplay programmer who have worked with Unity and Unreal and I’ve experiment with Rust for gamedev(though only for hobby projects) and for regular code. My conclusions so far is that Rust sucks for gameplay code, for most other things it’s kinda nice.

The biggest reason is that it’s much harder to write prototype code to test out an idea to see if it’s feasible and feels/looks good enough. I don’t want to be forced to fully plan out my code and deal with borrowing issues before I even have an idea of if this is a good path or not.

I would say though that because you are using ECS stuff it is at least plausible to do in Rust but at least for my coding/development style it still isn’t a good fit.

rhombus ,

The biggest reason is that it’s much harder to write prototype code to test out an idea to see if it’s feasible and feels/looks good enough. I don’t want to be forced to fully plan out my code and deal with borrowing issues before I even have an idea of if this is a good path or not.

There are options for this with Rust. If you wanted to use pure Rust you could always use unsafe to do prototyping and then come back and refactor if you like it. Alternatively you could write bindings for C/C++ and do prototyping that way.

Though, I will say that this process gets easier as you gain more experience with Rust memory management.

CameronDev ,

Unsafe doesn’t let you just ignore the borrow checker, which is what generally tripped me up when learning to write rust.

rhombus ,

That’s fair, I honestly haven’t used it in a while and forgot the real usage of unsafe code. As I said to another comment, it is a really rough language for game dev as it necessitates very different patterns from other languages. Definitely better to learn game dev itself pretty well first in something like C++, then to learn Rust separately before trying game dev in Rust.

CptBread ,

Not really. Unsafe doesn’t allow you to sidestep the borrow checker in a decent way. And even if you do it the Rust compiler assumes non aliasing and breaking that will give you loads of unexpected problems that you wouldn’t get in a language that assumes aliasing…

Testing something that only has side effects to the local scope is probably not too hard but that isn’t the most common case for gameplay code in my experience…

Going through another language basically has the same issues as unsafe except it’s worse in most ways as you’d need to keep up to date bindings all the time plus just the general hassle of doing it for something that could have been a 10 min prototype with most other setups…

Now sure it’s possible that I would have better result after doing even more rust, especially with some feedback from someone who really knows it but that doesn’t really change anything in just general advice to people who is already working on something in C++ as they likely won’t have that kind of support either.

rhombus ,

Those are fair points. I haven’t used it for a little while and forgot the exact usage of unsafe code. I love Rust, but I totally agree that it’s a rough language for game dev. Especially if you’re trying to migrate an existing project to it since it requires a complete redesign of most systems rather than a straight translation.

unionagainstdhmo OP ,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

Yeah I’m not too concerned about the ECS stuff, since the library I’m using has a rust binding which is semi-official. From what I’ve heard about Rust in other places is that it requires a different mental model for memory management to other languages. So I’m more concerned about using Vulkan with it (there are quite a few libraries for it already though so it won’t be impossible). I guess I can’t really know until I give it a go though, I might try and port one of my smaller projects over first to see how I like it.

rimu ,
@rimu@piefed.social avatar

Story by a game dev who gave up on Rust after 3 years https://loglog.games/blog/leaving-rust-gamedev/

boonhet ,

I’m seriously considering dropping everything and jumping to Rust because of Cargo.

Well if you’re into game dev, ECS and Rust, there’s like a 99% chance you know of it, but just in case you don’t: We have bevy, now with an extra full-time dev (Alice, who’d been working hard at it for years, I think she’s a bigger contributor than the author himself at this point lol)

unionagainstdhmo OP ,
@unionagainstdhmo@aussie.zone avatar

I’ve been keeping an eye on bevy, it looks really cool. I’ll probably make something with it one day when their ECS gets support for entity relationships (which appears to be in the pipeline). A really cool project though, basically looks like everything I’ve wanted out of a C++ engine which I can’t really use due to build system mixing.

geneva_convenience ,
@geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml avatar

Brackeys started a series on Godot recently. If you are writing a smaller game GDscript looks attractive and far simpler.

Myavatargotsnowedon ,

They’re mucking it about a little though, like that post when checking if types don’t match ‘! value is type’ can now be ‘value is not type’ which is more readable but not as logical in terms of the language.

TheHarpyEagle ,

Being a Python simp, I find GDscript just different enough to nag. There’s a lot of QoL stuff they don’t have and aren’t (currently) looking to add in order to keep the language simple. Honestly has me looking to use C# instead.

TheHarpyEagle ,

Being a Python simp, I find GDscript just different enough to nag. There’s a lot of QoL stuff they don’t have and aren’t (currently) looking to add in order to keep the language simple. Honestly has me looking to use C# instead.

Skullgrid , in The C++ learning process
@Skullgrid@lemmy.world avatar

Instructions unclear, attempted to learn JS

breadsmasher , in The C++ learning process
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

“Give it six months”

It only needed 3!

kirk781 ,
@kirk781@discuss.tchncs.de avatar
Ephera ,

Particularly unexpected, because 3! = 6.

boonhet ,

That’s because C++ is such a high performance language, it gets things done faster

dependencyinjection ,
breadsmasher ,
@breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

7m - 4m = 3m

dependencyinjection ,

My bad. I was going off OP first comment at 8 months and not the reply at 7 months.

I came back to be like actually no, but then I was like oh I’m the dumb dumb.

boredsquirrel , in spreading misinformation online (javascript??)
@boredsquirrel@slrpnk.net avatar

What about

D

VantaBrandon , in Average GitHub PR

“Works on my machine”

jaggedrobotpubes , in Average GitHub PR

I don’t actually know enough to know anything about this but I’m assuming that’s badass and you can only do it with sunglasses on

hex ,

Badass or stupid and incompetent? Take your pick lol

AdamEatsAss , in Average GitHub PR

If QA cared about us they wouldn’t make it so hard.

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