I usually say “I’m a computer toucher” or “computer programmer” if I don’t want to talk about what I do. If I want to flex some nerd cred, and/or boast a little, I’ll usually say “I work with machine automation” or “robotics”. It tends to get a more curious response and I can talk about some of the weird stuff I’ve helped make.
I used to work for Cisco (the huge router etc. company) but my mom thought I was working for Sysco (the food services supply company). She was very surprised to learn that I had anything at all to do with computers.
I hate that they took away my analyst title. I’m not a software engineer dammit. I don’t even have an IDE installed and haven’t done any programming in 10+ years.
In Canada the term “Engineer” is a protected title that only registered professional engineers may use. Claiming to be an engineer without such credentials is considered equivalent to claiming to be a doctor of medicine; It constitutes fraud.
That being said, I see all the time employers and employees, seemingly ignorant to this law, post “Software Engineer” in job titles.
Registered professional engineers in the software development space is a rare occurrence.
Honestly, the longer I work in tech, the less confidence I have in anyone’s title. Even searching for a job, different companies have different ideas of what, pretty much everything is…
I’m more on the side of IT support (sysadmin/netadmim/systems engineer/network engineer/second/third level support/engineer/whatever tf)… And even looking for a job for myself, it’s a nightmare… Even mundane details about the job are messed up. I saw a posting for a “remote support technician”, by their definition, this was “remote” as in, not from an office. The job was on-site support for remote sites. I don’t even think it was an IT position, more like mechanical maintenance IIRC. So you were “remote” aka, not at their office, doing support (for something not electronic), as a “technician”.
It’s bullshit all the way down.
When I was last looking for a job someone commented that I had “only” applied to x positions in y weeks, when their search for (some vague title related to my usual employment) had z search results, where z was more than 10 times x. I didn’t bother replying but I couldn’t help but think, did you look at any of those postings? I literally had a search filter for jobs that was “CCNA” (Cisco certified) and I literally had administrative assistant positions coming up… Those are little better than secretarial jobs. I know because I clicked on it because maybe, just maybe they meant an assistant to the systems administrator, but no, it was exactly what it said on the tin.
This is my frustration with IT. There are zero standards for what a job is. Developer? Is it software or something related to construction? Engineer? Are you examining the structure of something or building out IT solutions? Admin? Office admin? Systems admin? Department admin? There’s too many “admin” related jobs… “Support”? Supporting what exactly? Am I programming switchports, or is this some other kind of bullshit support.
That’s not even getting into all the actual IT jobs that are clearly out in left field. Sysadmin jobs that require years of experience with an application that’s extremely specific to one industry; an application you could learn likely in a matter of days, which isn’t very complicated, but your resume goes in a bin if you don’t have some very specific certification and a number of years of experience with the related app… I know that because I’ve applied to such positions and didn’t even get a courtesy email telling me to pound sand.
Which takes me to another point, you don’t get rejected. You get ghosted. They don’t want you? Fine, tell me that. You don’t even have to give me a reason, just some copy pasta about pursuing other candidates. That way I will know to not expect anything further, and keep trying. I mean, I’m going to keep trying no matter what, but still…
The whole job market is a hellscape.
Then, I can turn my attention to the pointless titles people have, which often don’t mean shit outside of your specific workplace. “Lead customer success technician” … Ok, wtf is that? What does any of that mean? Are you technical in the sense of working with information technology? Or is it one of the DOZENS of other “technical” things? Everyone is a technician and everyone is an engineer now. Those terms used to mean something. Now they’re just keywords to blast your resume with to try to match some AI filter so you can get a call. If you don’t play the game, your left behind.
I feel bad for all the professional engineers out there who hold degrees in real engineering. Now anyone, everyone and their mother is calling themselves some kind of engineer. It’s all word salad and I hate it.
The reality is also, that development is so extremely diverse, that it’s hard to find umbrella-enough terms to describe a job.
For example, I’m a senior software developer on paper.
I’m not senior, not even 10 years job experience. But I seem to be rather good at what I’m doing, so I’m a senior now.
I’m also hardly writing any code. I talk to customers about what they want their software to do, I talk to management about how many people I need, I review pull requests, I talk to junior devs about their problems, etc, etc. Maybe 10% of my time is actual code. But what title other than “developer” should I have?
Maybe “software producer”? (a term I’ve never seen used anywhere but that sort of makes sense when you think about what a movie producer does, for example)
It’s not a huge project (3-4 devs, including myself), there’s simply not enough to do for a dedicated architect. PM and SM are done by dedicated roles, but as a lead dev, I obviously have to play translator quite a bit.
In my career i have gone from Systems Engineer to professional services to Profesional services team lead to Senior Systems administrator to now just Systems administrator. All doing basically the same IT stuff at progressively higher levels other than the team lead part.
When i was looking for my last job i applied for a remote admin job and experienced exactly what you described. I was on the third interview and was asked when i was going to move to the area and if i wanted a relocation allowance as part of the offer. Uhh what? To them a remote admin was an administrator that went to remote sites. What a waste of my time
Depends. I’ve studied for my engineering title, I have standards and ethics. Requirements, specification, design, architecture, programming, testing, integration, delivery, everything is part of my job. If you are a programmer, you only do programming.
Look at the state of software in the world. Even for Boeing standards, most software is abysmal. You can have personal standards all you want, if business daddy wants to deliver untested crap, I might object, but I can’t stop it and it’s usually not a hill I would want to die on.
That’s why I said it depends. If a billion dollar company decides to cut costs even more to gain more and more profits, they hire an army of codemonkeys in India and that is what you get.
If you work at a mid sized company interested in sustainable growth, you might get a software engineering position where you are the business daddy and if you say “I won’t deliver that untested” then it won’t be delivered untested.
I’m working at a company in Germany and we are leading in our field. I have one boss and he listens to what I tell him because he doesn’t have a clue about software engineering and that’s what he hired me and my team for.
Look into Agile, servant leadership and new work (the real stuff and not the garbage “hip” companies want to make you believe) if you want to understand.
It’s the old principles that kill companies like Boeing, because they think they can make big profits like it’s 1984 solely by pumping money into an army of wage slaves.
Look into “how a company works”, because that directly works against anything you say.
Not that I disagree with your ambition, I would like to only ship tested code. But if you’re working with deadlines and fixed budgets, that’s often enough impossible. I can’t even get a proper specification out of my clients, and even if they do, it’ll change in a week. You can be as agile as you want, if money runs out, there’s not much you can do.
I’d argue that if you seriously consider yourself a software engineer, and you take the “engineer” part seriously, you should be quitting and blowing the whistle if that happens. If you just go along with it, then sure, you’re not an engineer.
Dude, you’re living in fantasy land if you’re being serious. Engineers build all types of shoddy and dangerous crap just because they’re being paid to do it. Most of weapons manufacturing is mech eng. Almost no one is gonna quit their job over some ethical dispute, even if it’s costing lives.
The entire industry works on shipping duct taped products.
I do have my standards, but there’s a point at which you have to say “it’s good enough”. If someone’s at risk of dying or being harmed, yeah, that’s a real problem. If the application keeps crashing and loses the business money, that’s not my problem, I can only notify my superiors about my concerns.
My doctor’s digital prescription service has been ransomwared. It’s been a few weeks, and they paid the millions of dollars in Bitcoin or whatever, but it’s still encrypted and my doctor had to write me a prescription on paper.
The fact that a digital prescription service could have that happen is madness to me. The fact that they don’t have offline backups for prescriptions is insane. Yes, they could have been in there for a while, encrypting everything, but if the company had tested its backups they’d have found out immediately.
All of these are things that wouldn’t have happened if computing professions were held to standards.
Ok, sure. What standards? For fields like Civil Engineering it’s pretty easy to come up with reasonable standards. But, if a software engineer is writing a generic key-value store, how do you evaluate whether that item meets the required standards?
There are things that a developer can and should check to make sure his code is secure, but my focus is mainly on the systems and those can definitely be held to standards. Things like checking dependencies for known exploits, enforcing 2FA and TLS on all connections, encrypting data at rest, and testing backups, among a lot of other stuff.
I’ve worked with hundreds of organizations across many different industries in my career and almost none of them do all or even most of those, even if they need to be compliant for things like HIPAA or SOX. I once worked with an aerospace company whose sysadmin/webmaster/network guy was literally the founder’s son, who got the job because he knew how to make a web page.
But then it all circles back around. I have advanced degrees in (non software) engineering from actual top tier engineering schools and I should not be trusted to write production code. That’s what software engineers are for.
I disagree with that. I mean, I don’t know how good you are at writing software, so maybe you shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near production code. But, just because code is “production” doesn’t mean it should exclusively be the domain of people who are “software engineers”.
In my mind, software engineering involves implementing new algorithms that are from a computer science paper you just read, or architecting a big and complex system. Or, if there are lives on the line. I’d want people writing code for a new Space Shuttle to think of themselves as engineers, not just code monkeys.
But, a self-taught developer is fine to update production code for a web app as long as they write the correct tests and get it peer reviewed.
I’ve been a programmer my whole career, but some years ago my then-employer gave me the actual title of “visionary”. This caused me to immediately lose the respect of my coworkers, and after a few months it was obvious my employer was just preparing to get rid of me and replace me with H-1Bs.
I think typically A, B, C, and F are acceptable to most people. I certainly wouldn’t mind any of those descriptions. D feels antiquated. E is too broad. G just sounds like a hobbyist.
Yeah but the programming is done on a computer and then uploaded to that device. It’s not specific enough of a term anymore. That’s why it feels antiquated. Back in the 80s, most people didn’t know enough about computers to know there were differences in different types of programming, and there were fewer types then too. These days you still don’t need to be too specific unless you’re discussing your role with someone else in the industry but still, if you just say you’re a programmer now, pretty much everyone will know you mean it’s computer programming.
I like Computer Programmer. No mistaking it. Developers are people who organise houses to be built. Engineers work on trains. Coders encrypt data. No matter what nonsense word salad it says on my email signature, when I’m at a barbecue I say I’m a computer programmer.
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