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brettvitaz , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend

It’s always Patrick, so both are the same

PhlubbaDubba , in Brainfuck is the sixth circle

The Base3 arithmetic alone makes me deeply upset

Base36 is where it’s at! Super divisibility, 0-Z keyspace, and “10” is a Square that’s also the product of two squares.

Plus you can count to “40” (144) on your hands!

Pogogunner ,

How do you count in base36 on your hands? I seem to only have 10 (decimal notation) fingers

ShaunaTheDead ,

You can count up to 1023 in base 2 using your fingers to represent 0s and 1s.

Pogogunner ,

I understand this, but I didn’t know how one would count up to 36 the first time around. PhlubbaDubba is using joints in their fingers to get additional objects to increment on. If we only used our fingers, we could only get to 10

PhlubbaDubba ,

In theory yes, in practice…fingers don’t like cooperating with the combinations of bent and up that you can get by doing that

magikmw ,

Yeah, fingers have a strong union.

mnemonicmonkeys ,

Speak for yourself

Hypermobility ftw

LazerFX ,

I do it regularly… I particularly like 4.

In all seriousness, I use it when I need to time something - 32 on one hand means one minute (approximately) with two rotations. I started when trying to determine if my daughter was asleep, waiting for a minute after she’d last moved or talked, and I didn’t want a screen or light or noise to wake her (she’s always been hard to get to sleep).

So - yeah it’s a tiny bit tricky to do some combos, but no more than touch typing.

PhlubbaDubba ,

Using your thumbs as pointers, count the joints in your fingers on one hand, that gets you to 12, use the other hand’s finger joints to count the thirds within 36, with 4 fingers on the other hand, that’s “40”

xigoi ,
@xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Each hand is one base-6 digit.

www.seximal.net/finger-counting (SFW)

Hazzia ,

seximal

(SFW)

:(

RonSijm , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend
@RonSijm@programming.dev avatar

Backend Requirements: “When x,y goes in, I want x+y to come out!” - Okay

Frontend Requirements: “Well it needs to be more user-friendly, and have this rockstar wow effect” - Yea wtf are you even talking about? You want me to add random glitter explosions, because I found a script for that, that’s pretty ‘wow effect’ right?

KevonLooney ,

Actually the front end stuff is more like “we need to make the ‘sign in’ button bigger. No one can click it because it’s tiny, and it’s in German.”

KairuByte ,
@KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Isn’t our main audience German? If you wanted non German stuff you shoulda asked for regional translations. Not only is that a change request, but you’re gonna be pushing the release window by months.

KevonLooney ,

But it doesn’t even say “Sign in” in German. It says “Das Bootton” because someone thought it would be funny and never changed it.

Darrell_Winfield ,

That someone was RIGHT!

NigelFrobisher ,

Marketing want us to add more typos to make the site feel more “friendly”.

veroxii ,

As a SaaS founder I’m now wondering if this actually works. Will have to talk to the front-end devs on Monday.

OKRainbowKid ,

Please don’t

Cwilliams ,

Plese donot

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

I spent years as a mobile developer and the thing that always drove me the most nuts was being handed a software design with lots of tiny buttons that were nearly impossible to tap with a finger. I generally implemented the UI by increasing the size of the tappable regions (without increasing the apparent size of the buttons) making it actually usable, but one time the designer discovered that I was doing this and went apeshit and convinced the project manager to order me to undo all this and make the tappable regions the same size as the buttons. The grounds for this was that implementing the larger tappable regions would take too much extra time - despite the fact that this had already been done and it took additional time to undo it.

kurwa ,

So wait you actually had to undo it all? What kind of designer would make mobile buttons small?

sheogorath ,

I usually just do what they requested and when they come to complain I just tell them “well, you’re the one who requested this” and pull up receipts. My DM to myself on Slack is filled with screenshots and links to confirmations for bullshit requests that the product team made.

TheBat ,
@TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

My DM to myself on Slack is filled with screenshots and links to confirmations for bullshit requests that the product team made.

How good does it feel when you pull out those screenshots to say, ‘no u’?

ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

What kind of designer would make mobile buttons small?

Have you ever used a mobile app? Every commercial mobile app I’ve ever used has tons of tiny fucking buttons.

dylanTheDeveloper ,
@dylanTheDeveloper@lemmy.world avatar

Someone who has tiny fingers

docAvid ,

Fucking apeshit craze-balls, makes sense, business as usual.

azertyfun ,

Real back-end requirements: when x, y goes in (in JSON-as-an-XML-CDATA-block because historical reasons), I want you to output x+y+z+æ+the proof to P=NP.

æ will require you yo compile x+y in CSV, email it to Jenny, who will email back the answer. She doesn’t quite know how to export excel sheets though so you’d better build a robust validator. No, we don’t know what æ is supposed to look like, Rob from Frontend knows but he’s on vacation for the next 8 months.

The request must be processed under 100 ms as the frontend team won’t be able to prioritize asynchronous loading for another 10 sprints and we don’t want the webpage to freeze.

And why does your API return a 400 when I send a picture of my feet? Please fix urgently, these errors are polluting my monitoring dashboard and we have KPIs on monitoring alerts.

evatronic ,

output x+y+z+æ+the proof to P=NP.

I’m sure there’s an npm module for that.

soggy_kitty ,

Clearly fake. No task ever includes anything but the happy path. Loading or failure states are a myth

RonSijm ,
@RonSijm@programming.dev avatar

Yea, fair enough. My point was mostly: backend requirements are usually at least objective. “Json xml comes in”, “CSV goes out by email”, “The request must be processed under 100 ms”, “API should not return 400 on feetpics” - these are still mostly objective requirements.

Frontend requirements can be very subjective “The user should have a great user experience with the frontend”

azertyfun ,

Hahaha that’s what frontend devs think, but the backend requirements are just as vague: “Just make this button work”. In my example all the requirements would actually be figured out bit by bit over months, nevermind the prescience required to foresee future architecture-breaking features or scaling requirements. At least you can make a mockup and get instant feedback, flawed as it is.

On either side it takes experienced engineers to suss out actual requirements from customers/PMs. The main difference is that the backend (especially on the infra/devops side) is only accountable to itself if everything goes well, but ironically that means no-one knows or cares about the amount of engineering that goes into keeping PMs blissfully ignorant of the risks and complexity.

RonSijm ,
@RonSijm@programming.dev avatar

Hahaha that’s what frontend devs think

Hahah, well as a primarily backend developer, that’s what I think as well.

“Just make this button work”

If that button doesn’t work, that sounds like a frontend problem to me… ;)

But yea, as you mentioned, it probably comes down to experience. As the meme from this post depicts. When I dabble in frontend and make a WinForm for my devtool, people just look at me and are like “Uhhh, can you make it better?”

No sir, clearly I can not. And I have no idea what you mean with “better”.

gravitas_deficiency ,

twitches

This is fine.

I am fine with this.

kautau ,

Yeah if you have shitty UX people frontend will just built what they’re told. Or actually more often, you could have really talented UX people and management decisions are like “needs more buy now buttons, the 3 visible on the screen aren’t enough.” Shit flows downhill

Fades ,

Yeah that’s not a real back end

perviouslyiner , (edited )

6 E Q U J 5 wow!

CanadaPlus ,

Man, if only backend demands were algebraically tractable. Often they’re related to frontend demands that may or may not make backend sense, since the frontend is all users see.

desmosthenes , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend
@desmosthenes@lemmy.world avatar

this is what starter kits are for lol

TxzK , (edited ) in Brainfuck is the sixth circle
_edge ,

Sounds like Javascript and co-pilot to me.

Synthuir ,

In the soap opera General Hospital, Colonel Sanders of KFC makes a guest appearance because someone is trying to kill him to obtain the secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices. He knows Malbolge and is able to disarm the destruct sequence.

… I… what?

Wizard_Pope ,
@Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world avatar

That soap opera apparently has 15000 episodes and has been airing since 1963…

CanadaPlus ,

So you’re saying that might not even be the craziest episode?

Wizard_Pope ,
@Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world avatar

The chance of that is definitely not negligible

hex ,

I thought you were kidding.

youtu.be/4T50w1BWCro?si=mlSizqEAnJ_5wb5n

Synthuir ,

Well, I wasn’t kidding, but I put about a 50% chance that someone had just vandalized the wiki page…

Thanks for finding that, absolutely golden lol

MonsiuerPatEBrown ,
Ghyste ,
morrowind ,
@morrowind@lemmy.ml avatar

This is peak programming. That’s it. It’s done. We can pack up and go home now.

Grass ,

Fuck… all the big tech corps got some catching up to do

Saledovil , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend

If you hear ‘full stack’, run. What I was told by a fellow student, while I was writing my thesis (paraphrased).

wesker ,
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

It may suggest the company doesn’t want to hire the appropriate amount of engineers, with the appropriate expertise, and instead want a mule. It also may suggest that product quality is a low priority.

RiikkaTheIcePrincess ,
@RiikkaTheIcePrincess@pawb.social avatar

Came here to ask if I’m the only one grossed out by the term “full stack” and its exploitative implications. Thanks for explaining why :3

Hey, maybe they make up the difference in “exposure” or something! That’s a well-loved way to ask for free/underpaid work!

azertyfun ,

I love shitting on Fullstack devs as much as the next guy. However, sometimes it really just does make sense for an (often internal) product maintained by a one-person team, and it doesn’t have to mean that the organization doesn’t value them. I’ve seen it happen.

However I would not recommend it as a career path because it’s essentially impossible to tell what you’re getting into when you get hired. Could be what I just described, could be that you inherit the full responsibility for a 20 year-old perl+php5+xhtml+angularJS mess.
I think it can only truly make sense if you work independently and get to build projects to your own quality standards, assuming you manage to find a “scope is small enough that specialization doesn’t make sense” niche. This is very hard which is why in practice “full stack” tends to mean “master of none but good enough to get a product out the door cheaply”.

NigelFrobisher , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend

Both should be the bottom picture to be honest.

GissaMittJobb , in Rust coin

THEY KNOW, SHUT IT DOWN QUICKLY

Sickday , (edited ) in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend
@Sickday@kbin.run avatar

In my experience, that bottom image is equally applicable when Front End devs go Full Stack lol

eluvatar ,

Yeah, it’s accurate both ways

NoisyFlake ,

Frontend dev here, can confirm. Last week I had to look at some Java code and was instantly greeted by some AbstractFactoryBuilderImpl. Nightmare fuel if you ask me.

invertedspear , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend

As a fullstack developer I don’t appreciate you calling me out like this. Write an efficient SQL query you framework monkeys.

But also, this is very true.

PhlubbaDubba ,

DROP TABLE

That seems like a pretty efficient query!

superduperenigma ,

I see you’ve met my boy Bobby

astraeus ,
@astraeus@programming.dev avatar

I hope you’ve learned to sanitize your inputs

watcher ,

Where’s my trusty CASCADE?

kautau , (edited )

Not understanding SQL (and in some cases NoSQL DBs) and the underlying database are a reason that so many full stack devs suck. Just because they use an ORM, they think the database work is magically solved, until they realize it’s just doing what they’re telling it to do and their lack of DB understanding has created an awful database structure. And then a DBA comes in, and then the entire ORM layer has to be scrapped because it’s trash, so on and so forth. A full stack engineer doesn’t have to be a DBA, but they sure as hell need to know what the ORM is doing to their data they are CRUDing

JaxNakamura ,

And then a DBA comes in

I’m convinced that’s a mythical being. In my 20+ years of experience I’ve never encountered one.

Wojwo ,

They don’t write sql they just use some god awful orm or cram it all into a nosql db.

ArbitraryValue , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend

I sometimes wish my employer didn’t know that I can write Python code, so that I would never be assigned front-end work. I prefer to deal with programs that take lists of numbers and return lists of other numbers.

(I’m not as bad as one guy I used to work with, because at least I accept ASCII input. His backend code only took binary-encoded configuration files for no reason I can think of except maybe to punish anyone except himself who tried to use it.)

Johanno ,

Who is using python for frontend?

odium ,

Flask and django I assume

DichotoDeezNutz ,
@DichotoDeezNutz@lemmy.world avatar

Isn’t that backed code? Unless your using templating…

odium ,

You could do templating with jinja, or do some data visualization with bokeh. I think there’s also something called dash. I don’t know much about any of them though.

pupbiru ,

definitely not what people are talking about when they say front end though

muntedcrocodile ,
@muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world avatar

If flask is frontwnd then im a full stack developer and definatly not some little code monky server raw html forms written by chatgpt with normatting.

Hellstormy ,
@Hellstormy@lemmy.world avatar

Using streamlit works suprisingly well for frontend

MonkderZweite ,

There’s pytermgui for cli.

0x0 ,

I’m terrified by this binary config file. Why?! Was he writing C and said “fuck it, memcpy”?

Edit: I suppose it would be more like “fuck it, fprintf(f, (char*)my_config_object, sizeof(my_config_object))”

troyunrau ,
@troyunrau@lemmy.ca avatar

I mean, python has pickle and people use that to store config. It’s a weird practice, and totally unsafe, but it works well enough. This wouldn’t be that different.

wesker , in Full Stack Programmer Doing Frontend
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I can’t be the only person who thinks “full stack” translates to “master of nothing.” One of the best career moves I ever made was shrug off the pressure to go full stack, and dedicate myself to backend only.

ImWaitingForRetcons ,

In my case, it was to increase the number of available job opportunities rather than any genuine interest.

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

I think knowing about frontend is important for a senior or higher level engineer. I would expect someone at that level to be able to contribute where necessary, and know enough to make sane decisions and know when those decisions impact backend/frontend. But to be equally good at both isn’t reasonable

wesker ,
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

A backend engineer that has adequately put in the time to operate at a senior level, will more than likely have worked closely enough with FE to check those boxes. They should be familiar with technical design and processes, which if done effectively, teach an engineer to ask those questions.

firelizzard ,
@firelizzard@programming.dev avatar

“I’m capable of not making a fool of myself with UI” does not equate to “I’m a full stack developer”

joyjoy ,

Full stack means we do it because nobody else will.

MajorHavoc ,

I feel seen.

I might get that sentence embroidered on a pillow.

firelizzard ,
@firelizzard@programming.dev avatar

You don’t have to be a full stack dev for that to happen to you

joyjoy ,

No, but when it does happen, you’ll probably turn into one.

firelizzard ,
@firelizzard@programming.dev avatar

When it happens? That happened to me a long time ago. I’m still a backend developer. I can create UIs and I can spin up and manage docker CI infrastructure but I sure as hell don’t want to. A properly run company team should have separate professionals for UX, front end, back end, sysadmin, etc. Just because I am capable of doing those things does not mean I should.

DreadPotato ,
@DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz avatar

Just because I am capable of doing those things does not mean I should.

This is the crux of why so many companies, especially smaller and medium sized ones, are a hot mess. capable of << good at, but of course it’s cheaper to just get johnny to do everything.

Prunebutt ,

As someone who likes to dip their toes into everything, I feel a bit called out by “master of nothing”.

wesker ,
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

My apologies. My intention wasn’t a dig at engineers themselves, but rather the trend of employers seeking “full stack” engineers, and the implications of them shopping for a singular engineer willing to do the job of multiple engineers-- IE be taken advantage of, and the first to be let go, because of a lack of specialized domain knowledge, etc.

Prunebutt ,

No worries. Wasn’t really offended. ;)

Fuck that employer behavior, though.

Rodeo ,

It just means he can’t do it by himself.

Yours won’t be perfect, but you can do the whole thing by yourself.

wesker ,
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Why would I want to do it by myself, in a professional team setting?

Username ,

The truth is that there is value in both a generalist and a specialist.

sheogorath ,

My company started with full stack devs only and we’ve transitioned to specialized back end and front end since we realized that 1 specialized BE Engineer and 1 specialized FE Engineer can work faster with better quality than having 2 Full Stack Engineers.

Simulation6 ,

Thank goodness issues respect the FE/BE break out.

SeabassDan , (edited ) in And don't forget RTFM

What if I wanna learn to code because I want to make more money than what I’m making now but lack creativity to make something like a game or an app that’s supposed to be good practice?

devilish666 OP ,

Sometimes motivation can make your better in forced way
Your case same like mine actually. in the end i forced to learn programming because it’s digital era & everything will be digital at some point, at first i admit i suck at everything but as time goes on i can made something better and better

I still remembered the first time i forced my way i learned about programming world especially web dev 14 years ago. I learned WordPress, why i learned it ? because it can make website really really fast, it’s high demand in my country (even today), you can make easy peasy money with it since my client doesn’t care about what tools you used as long as the website is launch and meet their requirements, & it suits for client that have very tight budget

devilish666 OP ,

Well nowadays i still learning how to make website & apps in proper way (like true programmer does). I admit it’s hard since i always use the easy way to cheat it, but i will made it through
Maybe next time I’ll learn how to make games since nowadays games popularity has rised so much compared way back then

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Think of it more like problem solving. Plenty of jobs use software engineers just to code bespoke tools suited to exactly what they need. Someone else will tell you what it should do, you just have to translate that into code. The hard part is more figuring out what they really need/want because what they tell you isn’t always what they want.

Corbin ,

Learn finance and bookkeeping; work for a bank. Software development is not lucrative; the high-paying jobs are fundamentally tough and cause burnout. Median employment at big software companies is maybe 2-3yrs and it will ruin your ability to relate to other humans.

szczuroarturo ,

Or work for a software development related to finance and bookkeeping so you get the downsides of both.

EnderMB ,

You don’t need to make something unique, if your goal is to learn.

The best thing you can do is to build something that solves a problem for you, or to build something that already exists that you know well.

As for money, given that companies seem to love layoffs lately, I would say that higher salaries only matter if you are employed. It’s an employers market right now, and a lot of people are really struggling to find work again, even from large companies like Amazon and Google.

AVeryCleverName ,

I try to keep an eye out for repetitive tasks that might make good projects. I just started a python script that’s going to download all my google photos so i can free up my cloud storage.

alyth ,

Be aware that learning to code is not a safe bet for making money in this market. Of course it’s better to have coding skills on your resume than nothing. Coding also complements other white collar skills well (eg. program Macros in Excel or use Jupyter for bespoke data analysis). But code alone is unlikely to get you cash, in my opinion.

TheSambassador , in t e c h n o l o g y

Reminds me of this youtu.be/Fc1P-AEaEp8

feedum_sneedson , in Ahh...yes...new "code-free" framework

chemical free

GarlicToast ,

DNA free

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