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crackajack , (edited )

That much is obvious. And for us commuters of public transport, it is such a relief to notice the traffic is not as bad and heavy as they used to be pre-pandemic, due to people now working from home.

With many businesses now wanting workers to return working on site, I think this shows the true colours of capital-owning class in relation to climate-change. Despite all the shifting of responsibility to make consumers monitor carbon-footprint, and corporate marketing of supposedly environmentally-friendly products, if CEOs and billionaires truly care about the environment, they would not even demand workers to return working on-site 5 days a week. Green-washing indeed.

Edit:clarity

oroboros ,

The blatant disregard there will be of this research, which will be the case, tells you everything about the viability of trusting the captains of industry to navigate us away from climate collapse

solstice ,

The most amazing part of the pandemic was during the peak of all the lockdowns when nature came roaring back within weeks. My gf and I took a walk around a closed college campus nearby and we saw at least ten different kinds of creatures roaming around without a care in the world. Deer, rabbits, turtles, you name it.

Personally I prefer office but I totally get it, and do plenty of wfh when appropriate. The business world is still transitioning to WFH/hybrid/full office models so hopefully we’ll reach an equilibrium soon.

yoz , (edited )

right but the issue is not environment pollution , its the real estate. They all are empty so fuck the environment and bring yo 9-5 ass to office.

jcit878 ,

i also think theres an inherent bias that ‘leaders’ tend to be more extroverted and see more value in people ‘being together’, and to an extent, at least in my observed experience, are unwilling to acknowledge the fact its not the same for everyone

Stovetop ,

It is downright malicious in many cases, though. A lot of times, business owners will be renting the property their office is based out of, and that property ends up being owned by a family member or friend (or they themselves) who then get to bill the company for quite a sum without that being considered payroll. If they lose the office, they lose money, and that’s all they care about.

Rentlar ,

‘Leaders’ also tend to own an outsize amount of real estate as well.

solstice ,

I’m deeply introverted but prefer in-office. I’m in a leadership position and gently encourage staff to work in office too when possible. It’s not for socializing and awful pizza parties, and you don’t have to tell me about your weekend hobbies if you don’t want to.

For me it’s mainly because my work requires technical skills, problem solving, and creativity, which means it’s very helpful for me to know my staff really well in order to properly review their work. If I see something that looks odd it’s really helpful to know ‘Mary did this and that’s her strength so I’m probably wrong’ or ‘Steve did this and he sucks in this area so it probably is wrong’ etc. WFH removes all that and everyone is just a disembodied talking head, or worse, emails and texts only, so I have no idea who I’m talking to.

I truly get the allure and I still wfh when appropriate but again I encourage in office as much as possible.

Throwaway4669332255 ,

Just being able to cook at home has reduced our food waste for sure.

dumples ,
@dumples@kbin.social avatar

I know it has reduced my food spending and leftover utilization.

guyrocket ,
@guyrocket@kbin.social avatar

I have solar panels on my roof. My employer's building does not.

underisk ,
@underisk@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not sure the people making the decisions about work from home have any concern for its effect on carbon emissions.

GissaMittJobb , (edited )

That’s probably primarily a consequence of bad zoning and transportation policy in the U.S - higher density zoning and public transportation/cycling infrastructure would address this more than enough.

Slapping a WFH-band aid on top of this mess doesn’t really address the root cause. That’s not to say you shouldn’t be able to WFH - work whichever way suits you best - but I don’t find this particular argument compelling as for a reason to advocate for WFH.

0110010001100010 OP ,
@0110010001100010@lemmy.world avatar

100% agree, we (the US) truly need better city layouts and public transportation. However, it’s nice to see more arguments that are “pro WFH” that aren’t just talking about the employees themselves or productivity. Not that it’s likely to change the path of management but it’s still welcome.

Xenxs ,

mild shock

ohlaph ,

And time. Instead of commuting, I’ll mow my grass, water the plants, do some chores, etc.

My wife commutes and can’t work remotely. I try to consider that and do more chores to bring balance.

That extra 20-30 minutes in the morning and 40 minutes in the PM is priceless, actually.

guyrocket ,
@guyrocket@kbin.social avatar

I agree.

Time truly is our greatest resource as people and getting some back instead of driving is fantastic.

Blackmist ,

Took me an hour to get to work, so now I get an extra hour and a half in bed as I get up at 9:30 for my 9am start.

Grumpy ,

Wait… so you’re 30min late for work everyday because you sleep in?

oroboros ,

That’s someone properly refreshed, ready to do some quality work!

3 day week, 4 hour day is doable, but my goodness would it cause wild upward pressure on wage levels…

investopedia.com/…/downside-low-unemployment/

Wage inflation is not good apparently…

sukhmel ,

So what they are saying is basically large companies have a ridiculous margin and can raise wages (but will not, unless unemployment rate is too low because efficiency) and small companies will go broke or loose all of their workers if bigger ones raise.

That almost sounds like a systemic problem, ain’t it?

Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
@Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

If you didn't think this was the case in most offices I have a movie to show you

AlexisFR ,
@AlexisFR@jlai.lu avatar

Well if you think like this, it’s no wonder they are ending WFH.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
@Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

Not everyone can be a happy little robot in a suit. Some of us are normal people.

flames5123 ,

Yep. I have to go into the office 3 days a week. I get up for my first meeting, do some light work, then shower and get ready during my working hours, and leave on the bus. I’ll get there around 11-11:30 usually. Then I’ll leave to be home around 5. I’m not wasting my time on this bullshit. Working from home is way more relaxing and efficient.

WindowsEnjoyer ,

I am like infinitive times more productive when working from home. I am voluntarely coming to office usually 1 day per week and oh boy I don’t work in office. Vaping, walking around, chatting, meetings, vaping, snacks, walk outside.

I think I will become pro-office at some point lol. 😅

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

Yep, and if you have management that still values presenteeism over actual work (because it massages their ego), the 20%-40% reduction in productivity while AT work will go unnoticed, most likely.

Ertebolle ,

Yeah, but they deprive their bosses of the opportunity to walk into the building and have everybody who meets them say "Good Morning Mr. Analwart Sir" before shutting their office door and playing Minesweeper for 3 hours

AllonzeeLV ,

If the American owner class has taught Americans paying any attention the last century anything about how they operate, it’s “Fuck the commons/planet/species/future, burn it all if it makes me a dollar slightly faster!”

Profit in this case being all the corporate park land they own. Propagating human misery at every step for nothing more than to run up their capital ego score, that doesn’t even effect their living conditions at all.

Good thing they don’t consider their victims, people without significant net worth, human.

AnonTwo ,

Does it even make them any money if someone is inside the building? It seems more like justifying a purchase that didn't pan out.

idiomaddict ,

Corporate real estate is over represented in investments, so the loss is through the stock market, not the company directly

Edit: I actually don’t know if that’s true, but it’s the theory

Kichae ,

While a lot of people work for big companies that may have commercial real estate holdings or are invested in REITs or something, most companies pulling workers back are not. And, indeed, they're run by people that are choosing to pay for the privilege of lording their station over the hired help -- though not to the employees, and many of them not purposefully.

They're just taking productivity hits while swearing up and down that we're all lazy thieves who don't do a thing all day while not in the panopticon.

AllonzeeLV ,

It’s about holding value for them. Small/medium businesses paying rent in perpetuity to the corporate owners of business complexes. Yes, they’d rather others suffer and the planet burn if it means their capital investment is reaping dividends.

That’s why we’re on the brink, it’s not like man made climate change hasn’t been known for half a century. Our owners only care about their capital scores. They destroyed our republic and captured our government that was supposed to regulate/check them for us to increase their capital scores. They’re destroying the climate and hobbling the species for generations to increase their capital scores.

Why does everyone act surprised when our owner class acts like sociopaths? Thats why they’re in our owner class to begin with. Welcome to America, where practiced sociopathy gets you a corner office, and practiced prosocial vocations and empathy gets you a cardboard box on the sidewalk.

cnbc.com/…/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-americans-…

baronvonj ,
@baronvonj@lemmy.world avatar

Your employer isn’t earning money by having you in the office. But they are losing money on the lease or mortgage for the property if you’re not in the office.

eltimablo ,

No, but it makes the cities where those buildings reside a boatload of tax revenue. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a lot of the "return to office" propaganda was coming from local governments freaking out about the abrupt downturn in tax income from commuters.

sadreality ,

You don't get to cut emission likes this, you will stop eating meat tho so better people can fly on private jets. They deserve it, peasants don't deserve anything. Slave bitches!

Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever ,

Its almost like people can do more than one thing.

sadreality ,

Correct peasants do all the things while better people do their jet setting and meat eating ;)

This is only fair

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

Well, meat eating should be cut way down; ideally to zero. But we’ll always have this disparity where some people will live better. It doesn’t mean the answer is to do nothing at all about systemic issues like meat.

Nougat ,

That's why I can sleep easy at night even though my house is heated by coal.

Honytawk ,

Because you are selfish? I mean good on you.

Trainguyrom ,

Ignoring all societal implications of burning coal, heating your own home by burning coal is super bad for your lungs!

Nougat ,

Yeah, but you should hear the cool sound it makes when they deliver a truckload of coal down the chute.

krayj ,

Corporations should be held responsible for the emissions caused by their employee’s commuting.

This would really change the discussion about return to office.

AllonzeeLV ,

Lol they spent decades doing the opposite, generating the vast majority of emissions with big manufacturing and big livestock, and then successfully shifting blame on poor peasants claiming the planet is heating because they’re not sorting their recycling well enough.

Chivera ,

Yes and also by telling us to buy expensive electric cars because the environment needs us to.

Duxon ,

How about buying electric instead of combustion while trying to not buy a new car unless it’s really necessary? That should reduce emissions, shouldn’t it?

zcd ,

This is the way

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Companies should be on the hook for all negative externalities. Make them internalities and watch how quick things change

Malfeasant ,

But then how would they exploit the poors?

Asifall ,

It seems simpler to just tax gas at a more rational rate.

krakenx ,

Simpler perhaps, but not really better. High gas prices hurt the poor disproportionately because it’s a larger part of their income, they don’t have as much control over WFH policies or their locations for reducing commutes, and they can’t typically afford to upgrade to fuel efficient vehicles. Plus since almost everything is transported by truck, high gas prices make the cost of everything else go up too.

I think part of the labor shortage is from people who did the math and quit after realising that they weren’t actually earning anything after subtracting transportation costs.

Asifall ,

If we’re talking about some sort of tax on employers based on the commute of their employees, it’s going to disproportionately affect the poor anyway. If you tax employers though you’re incentivizing further control of their employees lives.

Yes, higher gas prices would increase the cost of shipping and therefore most products, but there’s no world in which we hold corporations accountable for their externalities and consumer goods remain as cheap as they are.

ntzm ,

In Nottingham, UK they made it so companies have to pay for every parking space per year over a certain amount, and that money gets invested in public transport. Over time congestion has grown much slower in Nottingham than similar cities, I’m amazed that more cities don’t do the same.

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

Yes, but we need to see everyone in person!!!11111 There are intangible benefits and impromptu synergies, etc… /s

electrogamerman ,

Bro, I literally want to punch everyone in the office.

sukhmel ,

See, and how would you do that if everyone is at home? So office is clearly superior and totally necessary >!/s!<

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

LOL - game, set, match.

solstice ,

Modern accounting techniques are amazing and super effective, barely unchanged since their codification in the 1490s by an Italian scholar named Luca Pacioli. The biggest weakness of accounting though is its inability to capture externalities. How does one company record the cost of their employees commute? How do you even begin to calculate that? How do you measure the cost of extra leukemia cases in a town ten years after a train derails nearby? How do you record that in your books? How do you calculate and record the distress these huge noisy shipping vessels cause whales? It’s just so subjective and impractical.

krayj ,

In the city of Seattle, for example, every year, companies over a certain number of employees are required to participate in an annual transportation survey. The employees are surveyed. The questions ask how far the employee commutes to work, how long it takes, and by what method (private vehicle, car pool, public transportation), how many days a year they work from home, or take off, etc. The effort is to assess the impact on environment, parking infrastructure, public transportation, roads, etc.

Obviously, there isn’t a 100% response rate so the data is extrapolated from the responses to the total number of employees employeed at that site (probably why they only poll companies of a minimum size and larger).

If they wanted to implement something like this in seattle, then the next step would be to take the data they already have and start sending those companies a new bill for a new annual tax based on the assessment.

Lots of taxes work off of an estimated assessment rather than having to account for every nut snd bolt of the thing (property taxes, for example).

So how do you do it? That’s how you do it. This isn’t rocket science, and you don’t need to invent new accounting methods or worry about the accounting-sky falling to accomplish it.

solstice ,

Regarding commuting specifically I meant how do you determine the cost of each extra pound of co2 in the atmosphere. It’s inherently incalculable because the effects of climate change are insanely complex. That’s my point about externalities. How do you price the value of standing in an open meadow at dusk?

krayj ,

The point of my earlier comment was that the inability to account down to the last carbon atom isn’t a valid reason not to start with more generalized high-level estimates and work just from those until/if a better way of doing it is either becomes available or becomes a necessity.

It’s like arguing that we might as well not accept the existence of circles because we can’t calculate to the final digit of pi…when really, for most things, we don’t need that level of precision to still do a good job discussing roundness.

solstice ,

Pi can be rounded. It’s infamously difficult to compute externalities in any meaningful sense. Even more difficult to implement a fair and actionable policy for it. You can google “accounting for externalities” and read a bunch f articles and academic papers on the subject, which has been debated for decades.

Beyond fines for dumping chemicals in rivers, and carbon taxes, etc, stronger EPA, etc, I don’t really have any good ideas for codifying a real actual plan into law. Probably easier to raise corporate tax rates up a few points from 21% to whatever and use it to fund green energy and cleanup projects etc, rather than change accounting methods to try and capture the costs that way.

SmoothIsFast ,

Modern accounting techniques are amazing and super effective,

Hmm

The biggest weakness of accounting though is its inability to capture externalities

Oh so you mean it’s actually dog shit then, if you can’t properly look at external risks outside the clearly defined formulas and can game said fomulas to cook books to one’s liking.

How does one company record the cost of their employees commute? How do you even begin to calculate that? How do you measure the cost of extra leukemia cases in a town ten years after a train derails nearby? How do you record that in your books? How do you calculate and record the distress these huge noisy shipping vessels cause whales? It’s just so subjective and impractical.

You act like these are difficult tasks in the modern era. Commute is pretty simple, what type of vehicle, what are its maintenance costs at certain mileages, what are the crash statistics, etc. Once you have a general fomula you can add an increased payout to cover ireegular externalities to properly hedge against the edge cases. Same shit for the others. It’s not subjective and impractical, it’s just not the going to be perfectly effiecnt as you need to create a bigger financial bubble to account for edge cases. The problem is hyper fixation on extracting the most captial possible from a business. Stop trying to be the most clean cut business and focus on aiding your communities, working to better infrastructure and stop interference with local governments for tax benefits. Then progressive changes can be beneficial to both and reduce external unmitigated risks as we have a more nuanced model to work with.

solstice ,

That rant is unhinged, you’re not playing with a full deck. Not gonna engage with you if you can’t have a reasonable conversation in good faith.

SmoothIsFast ,

Lol, call out your bullshit and you have nothing but a reductionist argument, but sure bud I’m the one not playing with a full deck. Go lick some more boots if you can’t engage in constructive conversation.

solstice ,

Come back when you can codify your point into something that can actually be recorded on a balance sheet and P&L. Until then it’s not even wrong, it’s just…word salad…

witx ,

Well, for positions that could be moved to WFH perhaps. To others that would be unfair because companies would descriminate by distance to the office.

SmoothIsFast ,

So you also make sure location discrimination is illegal as well. There can be multiple parts to the legislation.

OftenWrong ,

Before we do anything else we should be working to end lobbying and put every single lobbyist leech on society out of a job. Otherwise this is all pipe dreams. They’ll just lobby it away.

em2 ,
@em2@lemmy.ml avatar

I still don’t understand how bribery lobbying is legal.

Malfeasant ,

As they should…

CharlesDarwin ,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve seen that already, at least pre-Covid and in the U.S. Even though I’m pretty sure that asking that during an interview is illegal, I’ve been on post-interview sessions where someone inevitably says “yeah, but this candidate lives nearly an hour away, while this other candidate lives 15 minutes away…” so they found out somehow.

ShadowRam ,

The main causes of remote workers’ reduced emissions were less office energy use, as well as fewer emissions from a daily commute.

I mean yeah, that makes sense,

But I wonder what the numbers are when it comes to everyone keeping their homes heated/cooled all day compared to communal heating/cooling of a building.

People working at home will increase their personal emissions to keep their home office heated/cooled, and I suspect you get more bang for your energy buck if they are all in one spot instead of spread out into multiple buildings.

So sure.. less office energy use, but increased home energy use...

I wonder how the study calculated that or even bothered...

jjjalljs ,

I don’t know about your home and office, but every office I worked in had atrocious heating and cooling. People wear hoodies inside all summer because the AC is set too low.

WarmSoda ,

Yup. You need a work hoodie for summer.
And there’s always that one girl that has a blanket.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod , (edited )
@Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

Or the lady who keeps bringing in a space heater and plugging it into their computer power strip despite being told repeatedly not to do that

AlwaysNowNeverNotMe ,
@AlwaysNowNeverNotMe@kbin.social avatar

Or who keeps triggering the breaker because her space heater is melting things under her desk.

frickineh ,

It’s me. I’m the lady with the space heater (and the blanket, and the hoodie). I have garbage circulation, so I have to warm up my frozen fingers and toes a few times a day or I can’t get anything done. If there were any other outlets, I’d use those, but there aren’t because my building is old as balls.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
@Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

I pray that you may find a job that lets you work from the climate that suits you best. Probably tropical.

frickineh ,

No joke, I was born on a Pacific island, and I swear that set me up for life to crave 85 and humid all year round. Unfortunately, I live in CO, and I love this dumb state, so here we are. With space heaters and office blankets.

ShadowRam ,

definitely a perk working from home, you decide temperature/sound/etc.

But I'm talking from an overall society energy use perspective.

I'm curious if the energy efficiency of having people in one building compares to the energy efficiency of them spread out.

It will greatly vary, as some are already in apartment buildings sharing that efficiency, some are in better eff rated homes, some are in worse eff rated homes.

Not sure this study can accurately claim 54% .. even if they said +-10%, it's still probably way out to lunch.

jjjalljs ,

Don’t forget about all the useless TVs and monitors running in offices all the time.

And heating/cooling/lighting all the empty rooms.

Plus staff for cleaning and security.

You’re not wrong that it’d be interesting to see some data, but my intuition is offices are extremely wasteful in a lot of ways. I could be wrong though!

Trainguyrom ,

I remember reading about a study pre-pandemic that found remote work was greatly better from an emissions standpoint than in-office work and it mostly came down to the massive amounts of resources spent commuting, and if I remember correctly it even found the emissions cost of commuting by public transit to be significant enough to see improvement by remote work

sbv ,

I wonder what the numbers are when it comes to everyone keeping their homes heated/cooled all day compared to communal heating/cooling of a building.

District heating is popular in parts of the world. We could lower emissions caused by commuting and lower emissions due to shitty tiny furnaces.

Trainguyrom ,

District heating (and cooling) would also alleviate the problem of people continuing to run ancient furnaces and air conditioners that are simply too old and worn down to be effective

neanderthal ,

In the US, people typically drive cars to work. These cars are 3000-6000 pounds that move 20-30 miles by burning oiil at 25% efficiency while also polluting the air with brake and tire dust.

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