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higher wages for the servers... by the customers. Fnbs

Went to a restaurant in LA today and when I got the check I noticed that it was a bit higher than it should be. Then I noticed this 18% service charge. So… We, as customers, need to help pay for their servers instead of the owners paying their servers a living wage. And on top of that they have suggested tip. I called bs on this. I will bet you that the servers do not see a dime of this 18% service charge. [deleted a word so it wasn’t a grammatical horror to read]

wesker ,
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

So it’s a mandatory tip, and it’s also suggested you voluntarily leave a secondary tip.

Tip culture in America is so aggressive.

LetMeEatCake ,

Service charge I would presume is primarily paid out to the non-wait staff at the restaurant. The kitchen in particular.
Tips go to the wait staff, and they will pay some of that out to other staff (e.g. front staff) depending on how the restaurant works.

These are going to be separate. The service charge is there so they can increase prices by a tightly controlled amount without needing to fuck up the carefully targeted price points ($8 or $7.99 is a lot better than $9.44). Which is shitty, to be clear: it’s a hidden way to increase prices while still advertising the same price. But it’s not something that replaces or complements the tip, it’s just a shitty price-adjustment.

A waiter or waitress is still going to be dependent on the actual tip.

Jackolantern ,

Why don’t the restaurants just pay actual living wage then?

DONTBANTHISACCOUNT , (edited )

THIS^

pay them , what You want to ... And increase the price on your menu ... BUT DO NOT STICK 😞 YOUR CUSTOMER WITH A HIDDEN FEE ...
Especially when we(customers) HAVE to pay tip 😉 ... {{ Like 'TF was the person who came up with the hidden fee even thinking... 😞🤔 ? }}

flips table

ediculous ,

Someone needs to ban this account.

KevonLooney ,

Because that’s not how it works in America. You know this. Don’t ask a question; it’s stupid. Declare your intention that it should be changed, and propose a way to do it.

If you actually care more than posting online, you can start a restaurant.

Jackolantern ,

How come other countries can do it? Why not ours?

I posted because I want to drive discussions which lemmy sorely needs

MeetInPotatoes ,

Different cultures, minimum wage laws, and tax laws; bottom line.

TheMauveAvenger ,

Is that really what Lemmy needs? Discussion on a topic that’s been hashed out a million times before? It would be more productive to talk about the weather than to keep circling the drain on this shit ad nauseam.

AnonTwo ,

I feel like there's been plenty of discussion. Everyone knows it's a problem.

It continues to happen because there's no pressure to change it. Just discussions that fall into the abyss of the internet at this point, repeating things everyone already knows.

wjrii ,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

Part of the reason there's less pressure to change it than you might imagine is that we now have a hundred years of cultural inertia working on, yes, the customers and restaurants, but also on the waitstaff labor pool. At this point, the Americans who seek work as waiters are generally the ones who feel they work with the system and even turn it to their advantage. It's far from all, of course, but the "best" servers at most restaurants probably feel like they're going to make more working the customers than negotiating with their bosses.

So, you've got restaurants keeping their list-prices low and a built-in workforce motivator, customers who expect friendly service and accept that they're culturally responsible for the staff's pay, and servers who stay at the job because they feel like they'll make more than the restaurant would be willing to pay as a "fair" wage (and they're probably right). Now, it's full-on bizarre that we have taken an entry level service job and made it an exercise in theatrical entrepreneurship, and it says some unsettling things about the underlying social order in the US, but I'm not sure that at the nuts-and-bolts level, it's as broken as the people like to imagine.

LetMeEatCake ,

Because they’re allowed not to do so. The answer is shitty yet simple.

Someone not tipping won’t change that either; all that will do is stiff a worker. This needs to be fixed by changing labor laws.

Earthwormjim91 ,

That’s entirely bullshit. A restaurant can absolutely pay a living wage and not do tips. Plenty of restaurants do it.

The simple fact is that servers don’t want that. They make more in tips.

LetMeEatCake ,

… I didn’t say they can’t do so. I said they’re allowed not to. Since it’s allowed, that’s what they do.

MeetInPotatoes ,

I hear this repeated so often and it ignores one glaringly obvious fact, servers aren’t the ones making any decisions…literally anywhere. They are the absolute bottom rung of decision-making. It is most definitely the restaurants that are just fine paying as little as possible. Servers do love mandatory gratuity however. Working a party of 10 when only one person tips on their own meal can mess up your whole night.

WhipperSnapper ,
@WhipperSnapper@lemmy.ml avatar

Point to your credit here: it’s illegal in this state to pay less than minimum wage whether the employee is tipped or not. ALL workers make at least $15.74/hr here, except for 14 and 15 year olds who can be paid 80% of minimum wage.

FordBeeblebrox ,

If I share the little green pieces of paper, I can afford a used Toyota. If I keep them all to myself, I can buy a new Cadillac and drive past my starving workers in style.

Can’t hear them crying over a V8 exhaust right?

Aesthesiaphilia ,

Because then they'd have to raise prices.

Especially nowadays with so many people looking up menu prices online before going somewhere, it's a way to present your prices as lower than they actually are.

DONTBANTHISACCOUNT ,

It sounds like a hidden fee to me... Which is like lying to someone .. anyways at least that's what it looks like to me if not Fraud

redlink64 ,

That’s a good question, and the easy answer is ‘they should.’ As the commenter above you mentioned, they use it as a tactic to advertise the same (competitive to other local restaurants) price people are used to. A more transparent way of doing business would be raising the price of the menu items to compensate staff fairly. The restaurant owners/management fear that if they do this it would drive away customers who believe the food is overpriced and look to their competitors. It’s easy to say, ‘just pay the staff a fair wage,’ but not quite as easy in practice. Most restaurants are small businesses just barely scraping by. The OP is right to be annoyed, but as always, context and a basic understanding of a situation’s underlying principles make the easy answer difficult to implement.

GizmoLion ,
@GizmoLion@kbin.social avatar

Put a banner outside saying "no gratuity necessary, the price you see is the price you pay!" and watch what happens.

MeetInPotatoes ,

I worked in restaurants for years and this is the correct answer. I also die a little inside at how many posts say to pay servers a living wage but then balk at the idea of paying extra for the meal. Where else would the money come from??! As you said, if they raise menu prices, their competition will undercut and do this. It would also affect takeout prices where tips are usually lower. People hate tipping and want a magic solution where waiters make more but also nobody’s charged more.

MeetInPotatoes ,

They would still have to add that living wage cost to the food prices. Hidden or not hidden only makes a difference in how surprised you are, not the cost.

outdated_belated ,

Because liberal mystification with fancy-sounding concepts made to make you feel dumb so you don’t realize it’s just creative surplus labor value expropriation

Letstakealook ,

Or they can get a less shitty employer. I see a hidden “service” fee, that’s the tip, take it to up with the owner, I’m not responsible for this. Restaurant staff really need to start directing their anger and efforts at their employer instead of customers.

Lodra ,
@Lodra@programming.dev avatar

Ya… That doesn’t seem realistic to me. Very few people will “direct their anger” toward someone with power over them. There’s always risk in a addressing issues with your employer because they can make your life worse. They can fire you, reduce your income or working hours, become inflexible with scheduling and demands, remove benefits, etc. No, it doesn’t always go this way and there are plenty of fine employers. But even if you have a reasonable employer and are free to raise concerns, there’s still risk and confrontation.

And what about alternate employers? Restaurant staff can go find a better employer, right? Except, job searches are very difficult and it’s near impossible to identify a good employer from a bad one while interviewing. Very real chance that you make a change and end up with more problems.

Don’t get me wrong. These hidden fees are 100% bs. It’s just not the employee’s responsibility to fix things. They usually have zero power in these situations. “Be good to the customer or I won’t get a tip. Be good to the employer or I won’t be scheduled to work.”

Letstakealook ,

It’s not my responsibility to tip on top of a hidden 18% fee as the customer, either. That’s the point I was making. Waitstaff love to direct their anger at customers, as if it’s the customers fault. The employee does have the power to organize, campaign, and vote for politicians who could enact policy to make their situation better. Instead, they just bitch about customers somehow being terrible people because their employer doesn’t pay them a living wage.

VioletRing ,

Found their website. They use a lot of flowery words, but I think you sum it up pretty well.

https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge

DONTBANTHISACCOUNT ,

Lol. this makes me want to stand in front of their restraunt with a protest sign saying " this restraunt likes to charge hidden fees "

Vorticity ,

Biden was in the news saying he wants to get rid of hidden fees. I was surprised that restaraunts weren’t on the list of industries being targeted. This kind of fee should be illegal. It should be required to be a part of the up-front price.

Hell, I feel the same about sales tax. It should be baked in to the price you see on the shelf or menu.

NathanielThomas ,

But then you can’t list gasoline for $1.99.99 a litre

zerofk ,

So what’s to stop them from setting all prices to 1 cent and having the rest as service fee?

theneverfox ,

There are restaurants who don’t show you the price, so nothing I guess

Fridayj ,

Thank you for posting this you are correct the fee goes to the restaurant and they use the money to pay the back of house. In my experience it is just so the restaurant can provide the same wages as before to back of house but not out of the restaurants pocket. This tends to result in people tipping less so the server directly makes less money. There is also often no accounting/oversight into how the restaurant uses the fee. If I recall correctly the city of Los Angeles is looking into the legality of how these fees are presented to the customer and the fact there is no oversight.

FordBeeblebrox ,

Owner wants to get his cut, server wants to put gas in their car. We’re a country of 350 million attempted unique make it rich stories and it’s a goddamn mess.

We need UBI and jobs programs aka Trek after WW3…but I fear we may have to fight the war to get it

DONTBANTHISACCOUNT ,

Reminds me of how dealerships can sell cars above the MSRP ... SMH

(( They do it in US but not in Europe; or so I heard ))

WhipperSnapper ,
@WhipperSnapper@lemmy.ml avatar

The S in MSRP is “suggested”, so I don’t see any technical problem with it. I think we need a separate term if it’s meant to be a locked price point across sellers.

SpezBroughtMeHere ,

How is this any different than just raising the price of everything by 18%? But you see service charge and a percentage and its an outrage.

IGuessThisIsForNSFW ,

If you raise the price of everything by 18% the prices on the menu will be 18% higher, possibly discouraging people from eating there. If you add it at the end people will still choose to eat there at least once. It is practically the same as raising prices, just a lot more dishonest.

irotsoma ,
@irotsoma@lemmy.world avatar

Also illegal. It’s called bait and switch. Advertise one price, provide the service, then change the price. What if you went to get $50 in gas, and after you put the nozzle back the price suddenly changed to $59. Unless there’s a very visible sign saying it would happen before you started pumping, it’s illegal.

IGuessThisIsForNSFW ,

I’m sure that they have a sign by the front stating that they do this. Probably on the menu as well. I doubt that most people are doing the math themselves and are more likely to see a $10 menu item and think it’s $10 + tax and fees. Basically the extra fees are an afterthought.

Guy_Fieris_Hair ,

They are trying to tell you to not ask for a livable wage.

Squirrel ,
@Squirrel@thelemmy.club avatar

Because raising the price of everything lets you know ahead of time that you are paying more. I’m fine with a price hike if it means servers get better pay, but hiding it like this is scummy and borderline fraudulent.

nan ,
@nan@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It isn’t hidden. They tell you upfront there is an 18% charge, however they rely on people ignoring that or psychologically not caring and only looking at the item price.

CoderKat , (edited )

I wonder how many people would see the warning and assume it just means an 18% auto gratuity? Because that’s very common and the amount is exactly what many auto gratuities have (or at least had when I last was in the US, which was several years ago). Because if I saw something saying there was an 18% service fee, that’s what I’d assume. I would not think there’d be a tip on top of that.

That said, the US custom of not including the final price (including taxes) in the posted prices is a shitty, toxic practice and should be illegal.

nan ,
@nan@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I saw elsewhere that workers are suing this restaurant over this specifically. If they are doing a service charge like this it should not be revenue generating to the restaurant.

lunarul ,

It does make sense to increase all menu prices in order to pay higher wages, but it’s a sleazy dishonest practice to hide that increase from the customers until it’s too late.

Skyline969 ,
@Skyline969@lemmy.world avatar

It’s getting stupid in Canada too despite our laws being different (as in, you cannot make less than minimum wage if you work in a place that allows tips).

I got my oil changed a few months ago and the machine prompted me for a tip. For what? The mechanic did their job, I paid for said job. Transaction concluded.

I tried Crumbl cookies for the first (and last, holy crap overpriced) time. Got asked for a tip. For what? I got six cookies in a box and then had to leave the store because there’s no seating to eat them there. The person who helped me took my order. That’s it. Another employee put six cookies in a box and put them on a counter and said my number. Not a lot of wiggle room to go “above and beyond.”

What’s next? A tip at the grocery store for the cashier scanning my groceries? A tip at the drive-thru?

Here’s a tip. Don’t work for an employer who doesn’t pay you what you’re worth.

EDIT: Actually, the tip at the drive-thru is already a thing. Starbucks prompts for a tip at the drive-thru. For what? The barista took my order and made my coffee. I drove up to a window, took it, and fucked off.

Mog_fanatic ,

I booked a hotel online the other day and was asked if I want to leave a tip… A tip for what? I didn’t even interact with a human. Just clicked a few buttons on a website. Am I tipping the web developer?? Lol

Skyline969 ,
@Skyline969@lemmy.world avatar

As a developer, I never get tips. Even on my open-source stuff, I have a “tip jar” PayPal link on the very bottom of my readme files. Never asked, never required. Know how much I’ve made in tips over the years? Exactly $0.

betterdeadthanreddit ,

Have you tried walking into your software’s users’ homes to clear away empty plates and refill their water?

gamer ,

I know it feels gross, but asking is how you get people to do things. This is true for pretty much everything. That’s why mobile apps have a popup asking people to leave a rating, and Apple even has a standardized API for showing that popup since it’s so common.

So you should try something similar for you projects. Come up with an (ideally non-intrusive) ask that feels like a personal request rather than just a link dumped somewhere in a readme.

And if you feel bad about it, just remember that getting people to pay for OSS is a win for the whole ecosystem!

tony ,

I’ve definitely tipped developers (through the ‘buy me a coffee’ site, or occasionally patreon). But I’m unusual I think…

jballs , (edited )
@jballs@sh.itjust.works avatar

I got prompted for a tip from an online pharmacy last week. So we’re apparently tipping on medicine now.

Astroturfed , (edited )

Starbucks barista doesn’t even “make” the coffee. They use superautomatic espresso machines. Starbucks coffee sucks ass.

TheBat ,
@TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

Does it suck because of or despite the machines?

Astroturfed ,

Superautomatic machines make inferior espresso shots objectively. For various mechanical reasons they will never make espresso as well as non-automatic machine.

That being said, I own one at my house. It’s very convenient and it’s passable espresso (when using decent beans, Starbucks burns their espresso beans and that’s the main reason it sucks). However, if I’m paying $5+ for a couple shots of espresso in whatever form I’m expecting it to be made right. Not worse than my mid range home machine makes with a couple button taps.

NathanielThomas ,

It clearly doesn’t suck or there wouldn’t be one on every street corner in North America.

But I’m sure you’re right about the automation. They don’t want variability in your experience. They want a coffee in Texas to taste the same as a coffee in Iqaluit.

Astroturfed ,

Yup, taste like burnt ass garbage beans, coast to coast.

nan ,
@nan@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

In the US you generally cannot make less than minimum wage, the employer can directly pay you less as long as your full compensation (pay + tips) are at least minimum wage, if not they are supposed to pay more.

I think the explosion of tip questions is due to the card processors figuring out there was an untapped area where they could pressure people to tip and skim off a percentage of that.

Skyline969 ,
@Skyline969@lemmy.world avatar

That’s the thing here - the employer must pay you the same regardless of tips. Tips are always a bonus, not part of your wage.

Enigma ,

I think you misunderstood. In some states, you will be paid below minimum wage if you make enough in tips. IIRC there was a story a number of years ago about servers in Tennessee (?) only making $2.15/hr. It was legal because they made enough in tips to cover the other $5.10/hr that the restaurant is supposed to pay. So instead of the tips being extra cash on top of pay, the restaurants were literally having the customers subsidize the majority of their pay.

Skyline969 ,
@Skyline969@lemmy.world avatar

I understand that, but I’m talking about Canada. In Canada if you’re paid $13, $18, hell $50 an hour, it doesn’t matter whether or not you make tips. Your employer must pay you your full hourly wage no matter what.

NathanielThomas ,

What’s next? A tip at the grocery store for the cashier scanning my groceries?

Nope, a tip at a self-checkout.

Random_user ,

Listen to this scam.
I stopped at a Starbucks kiosk to get my kid a juice box the other day. When I paid for it by card the card machine prompted for a tip, 25%, 20%, and 15%. Here’s the kicker, 25% was selected by default! You actually have to use button on the machine to move through the selections to get to NONE. To top it off the lady behind the counter casually said, “Oh you’re using a card? Just press the green accept button when the menu comes up.” which would have selected the 25 option.

wesker ,
@wesker@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Super shady!

PixxlMan ,

It’s not a tip. They’ve literally just increased the prices without showing and lying about it on the menu.

DoomBot5 ,

All the arguments about tipping here are missing the point. The restaurant owner just came up with a bullshit way of raising the prices without showing larger numbers on the menu. That should honestly be illegal.

mac ,

A lottt of restaurants in socal do this, unfortunately. I’ve never seen it this high, though.

valkyre09 ,

maybe it’s to allow take-away at a lower price, like a dine in vs eat out charge.

Very rare, I’m from Ireland & have only seen it once in a Chinese restaurant. They were very clear about it in the menu though so it wasn’t a sticker shock price

dept ,

we have that in Egypt. normally like 15% service charge when eating in the restaurant but nothing when taking out.

CmdrShepard ,

I’ve seen some restaurants adding a take-out fee recently. It’s fucking insane.

instamat ,

Won’t somebody think of the poor restaurant owners?? They need all the money they can squeeze out of us!

ponfriend ,

It soon will be. news.bloomberglaw.com/…/prepare-for-renewed-ftc-r…

DoomBot5 ,

Reading the article, I’m not feeling too encouraged that this will actually impact small restaurants. From the article it sounds like the FTC is just going after large corporations.

ponfriend ,

This is already about to pass in California. legiscan.com/CA/bill/SB478/2023

The FTC is going to write a rule similar to what local governments have given themselves power to regulate. The article gave some examples, but it is not exhaustive.

Etterra ,

The thing is, by paying for food we should be paying the employees - that’s how salaries work. But in an effort to out-compete each other in the razor-thin margin business that is most restaurants, they don’t want their menu prices to go up, because that discourages customer spending. So many restaurants use underhanded tactics to screw customers instead. Hidden menu prices, sneaky service fees, and begging for point-of-sale tips at places where they’re not getting paid shitty server salaries (like fast food).

superkret ,

But for some reason, those menu prices still are higher than for example in Germany, where service charge isn’t a thing and tips are “round up so I don’t get small change back”.

Carighan ,
@Carighan@lemmy.world avatar

Probably because in our atmosphere we more readily criticize bosses taking 90%+ off the top, while in the US it’s entirely normal that any increase in prices goes entirely into the manager pockets and the servers continue to be paid just enough to physically survive so they can show up for work again.

And sure, it happens a lot over here, too. But to a lesser degree, and not as readily. The base climate is different.

glimpseintotheshit ,

I disagree. Those prices are pretty typical for most (proper) german restaurants and i would even say some of it is on the more affordable side. Also, while tipping culture isn’t what it is in the US, giving less than 10% will make the waiter almost certainly hate you.

That’s no excuse for that outrageous “service fee”, of course.

feifei ,

Best to cook at home

chop ,
@chop@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I’ll be the one to stoop to a name and shame. From the receipt, that’s Jon & Vinny’s Brentwood. Thanks—will now be sure to avoid going there.

iamascaryvampire OP ,

i went to the one in Fairfax. i should have known something was up. when my wife (who wanted to go, she doesn’t speak english so she was just looking at the pictures) showed me this place, i saw that their rating wasn’t as good as i thought it would be. but since i was driving i didn’t check. now i know why.

BillMurray ,

Jon and Vinny’s is such great food too, it’s a shame that they pull this shit. Last time I went, I just rounded up to the nearest $ and paid with cash. I’m not tipping on top of an 18% auto gratuity. I would say they should just raise their prices, but that place is already very expensive…

vincenttwice ,

For anyone in/traveling to Seattle, “Conversation” is a restaurant by Pike Place, and they add 20%.

CrayonRosary ,

All wages are paid by customers. Where do you think the money to pay them comes from? Heaven?

The underhanded and sneaky part is that the menu prices are a lie. If they want to pay a decent wage to their employees, good on them, but they should just raise all menu prices by 18% instead of surprising you later.

BigDiction ,

Kids pasta shells are already $16.25. I don’t think they can raise them any more.

MNByChoice ,

Of course they can raise prices higher.

Sadly, there have been studies (too lazy to find a link) that indicate being sneaky like this, instead of raising prices, leads to a better reaction from customers.

partizan ,

if by better reaction you mean never ever return there, then for sure…

Kinglink ,

You nailed it. It’s artificially deflated prices, and dishonest…

Would be the last time I visited them.

DarkDarkHouse ,
@DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Upvoted, but just want to say that the payment usually goes customer -> owner -> employee. Don’t let the owners trick anyone into thinking that someone other than themerlves are responsible for paying employees.

CrayonRosary ,

Why though? Why does that asshole get to decide how much the cook makes, and his much the server makes? Why do I get no say in it? After all, they’re making and serving food for me, not the owner. I should be allowed to negotiate with the cook and the server and write up a contract we all agree to. The owner gets a cut, too, for providing the space, and paying for the ingredients, but the cook and server pay him out of the money they make. Don’t forget the dishwasher. He rents the dishes to the cook.

I realized this sounds very silly and weird, but that’s exactly how contracting works. You directly pay who you interact with for the work they are offering, and if their work requires good or services from other people, they pay them.

Why not run a restaurant like a hair salon where a cook rents a time slot and a part of the kitchen. And the server is like hiring a private courier.

Again, its silly. I’m just saying… The whole customer -> owner -> employee relationship you seem to hold sacred is totally arbitrary. It’s a system some men with capital invented thousands of years ago. Why is it necessarily good?

DarkDarkHouse ,
@DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Nobody’s saying it’s good, I’m saying it’s usual. Partly because it’s simpler in this situation, but you’re right to point out alternative models. Heck, where I’m from tipping is an alternative model.

Arsenal4ever ,

Corporations invented Jaywalking to pass the problem of death by vehicle from the manufacturer to the victim. Corporations invented the concept of Litterbug to shift blame from the makers of trash to the disposers of trash. Corporations invented the concept of the personal carbon footprint to shift the blame from the makers of carbon to the users of carbon.

This is just the same thing. Corporations are good at this.

Melco ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    NathanielThomas ,

    It would be fucking awesome if it ended up in the landfill.

    It ends up on pristine beautiful south Pacific island beaches.

    Death_Equity ,

    Fiji water has the most inefficient bottle return program. Most of the bottles just end up in Jakarta.

    jarfil ,

    Corporations:

    • Reduce… no, we don’t want them to buy less!
    • Reuse… still not good enough.
    • Buy more and Recycle… now this, we can support. Add a recycling charge to it for good measure.
    RaivoKulli ,

    Where I live our recycling rate is pretty good and a lot of it either ends up recycled back to use or is used for energy. A lot less stuff ends up in the landfill. Seems to work alright, the rates could be higher but that’s something that varies from country to country.

    CmdrShepard ,

    In the US we can’t even recycle plastic anymore because China quit buying it. I’ve read that tons of recycled paper/cardboard just ends up in a landfill too because recyclers get too much to handle or it gets contaminated. One of the 3 “R’s” is “reduce” meaning not generating that waste to begin with, but many people only consider the “recycle” part as being all they need to do to be doing things sustainably.

    quinnly ,

    One of the 3 “R’s” is “reduce”

    Not just one of the Rs, it’s the first R. It’s the most important one!

    FlowVoid ,

    Trash has been around far longer than corporations, and people have taken responsibility for their trash long before corporations existed.

    Arsenal4ever ,

    Okay, thank you for setting me straight.

    Heavybell ,
    @Heavybell@lemmy.world avatar

    If the service charge is always there then just raise prices by 18% and stop misleading people ffs…

    WoahWoah , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    bobo ,

    Because the price on the menu then appears lower than what the customer actually pays. It’s completely misleading.

    WoahWoah ,

    Ohhh, that’s a really good point. I didn’t think about that. This hasn’t happened where I live. Thanks for helping me understand. That IS really misleading.

    SnowBunting ,

    It also guilt trips the customer into accepting the unexpected added price.

    raptir ,

    And even if it’s on their printed menu, you might look at the menu on Google Maps and see one place has a dish for $20 and another place had the same dish for $24. You go to the cheaper place and sit down and see the 18% fee. Are you necessarily going to leave and go to the other one?

    Shush ,

    I would probably leave and just go home. I wouldn’t be in the mood to eat anymore.

    aesthelete ,

    It’s usually on the menu but it’s in fine print under an asterisk.

    It’s alarmingly common (though not usually as high as 18%), and ought to be fucking illegal.

    atticus88th ,

    Also it costs far too much for the owner to reprint all those menus with higher prices. And to update all the food delivery apps… fuhgeddaboudit

    CmdrShepard ,

    But they can afford to reprint the menu to include a note about the 18% service charge or when their item prices increase ‘organically?’ This is a BS excuse.

    sukhmel ,

    My guess would be that it was sarcasm exactly because of the reason you explained. It contradicts really so hard it almost makes it obvious (not completely, it seems)

    aesthelete ,

    It has nothing to do with the cost of re-printing menus, because they have to do that anyway to put the legalese on there about the percentage surcharges.

    new_acct_who_dis ,

    Because no one agreed to pay that when they were ordering. Imagine being a on budget for a night out and getting this extra charge outta nowhere

    WoahWoah ,

    Yes, that makes total sense. I just hadn’t thought it through.

    IdleSheep ,

    Imagine you only have 10 dollars on you and buy a 9.99 item off the menu because of it, only to discover at the register there’s a 20% service fee. Not very a very pleasant customer experience, is it?

    Thank God where I live this is completely illegal. The prices on the menus are always the final price.

    aesthelete ,

    Thank God where I live this is completely illegal. The prices on the menus are always the final price.

    ^ This is the answer folks…this type of bullshit legalese in restaurants should not be legal.

    Anticorp ,

    You own that restaurant. Don’t you?

    WoahWoah ,

    Caught me.

    krebstar ,

    What a joke. Just raise your prices and put it on the menu. I would refuse to pay that. That was not listed anywhere before you ordered.

    qwertyWarlord ,

    Those prices are already wack, holy cow

    ChicoSuave ,

    It’s California pricing with added 9% inflation.

    some_guy ,

    That was not listed anywhere before you ordered.

    I don’t know why this logic hadn’t occurred to me until you said it. Strikingly obvious argument for raising prices on the menu.

    aesthelete ,

    They aren’t doing that because nobody can do the math in their head to figure out what the actual cost of the menu items will be. Much better (for them) to hit you up with a charge at the end and blindside you with percentage surcharges.

    It’s alarmingly frequent in California and should be fucking illegal.

    crwcomposer ,

    I thought the point of paying servers a living wage was to make tipping unnecessary.

    SCB ,

    This line of thinking is just making serving a less attractive job for millions of people to save yourself a small amount of money.

    Cybermass ,

    This line of thinking is what let’s wage thieves sleep at night.

    SCB ,

    Tell me you don’t understand wage theft without telling me you don’t understand wage theft.

    IamSparticles ,

    If they have started charging this service fee customers will be less inclined to tip on top. So if the money from the service fee is not entirely being used to increase staff wages, then the restaurant management is effectively stealing their tips. That is wage theft in spirit if not legal definition.

    SCB ,

    This conclusions requires two separate assumptions from you that are not evidence-based

    Cybermass ,

    The sun’s core being filled with a quark plasma soup instead of, for example cotton candy, is also an assumption that is not evidence-based.

    It’s almost like we as humans can use logic and reason to determine things to be extremely significantly probable without having proof in our hands.

    SCB , (edited )

    Our understanding of the sun’s composition is absolutely evidence-based.

    www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_solar/PUS/…/howstudy.html#….

    You’re making the assumption that

    1: this money is embezzled by the owner

    2: people are less likely to tip

    You’re also making a third: that servers receiving less pay won’t go elsewhere

    Whereas we extrapolate from data to understand the Sun (moving from evidence to conclusion) you are starting with your expected result and then manufacturing caused (embezzlement, lack of tips)

    This is the opposite of using “logic and reason”

    NathanielThomas ,

    It’s not that we’re assuming the money is being embezzled by the owner, it’s that we don’t exactly trust that this 18%–which instead of going directly to the server is going to the establishment–will be used to solely fund wage top-ups.

    It’s a very safe assumption that anybody who sees an 18% gratuity automatically added to the bill will not tip any further. Some will, but most will be done tipping at that point.

    CmdrShepard ,

    I believe you made the argument stating that this is going to reduce server’s wages and if these fees aren’t going to employees and its not the business owner keeping them, then where could that money possibly be going?

    SCB ,

    No I said people wanting to move servers to a set hourly wage would reduce their wages.

    CmdrShepard ,

    But where’s the logic and reason in this opinion? The other guy is “making assumptions” by saying this will improve conditions when they don’t have to beg for tips, and here you’re saying their wages will go down without any facts or evidence immediately after your snarky analogy about the sun’s position. Ridiculous.

    SCB , (edited )

    That’s not the point I was making though. If the servers are tipped less due to this policy (the other person’s claim) and make less money, they’re likely to quit because serving has extremely high turnover anyway

    However -

    Servers regularly are tipped above “target percentages.” This is a fact - especially once you consider places with low cost-per-plate (diners etc). If you pay them 15% of total sales or whatever you’re essentially capping tips at 15%, lowering their wages.

    Waldowal ,
    @Waldowal@lemmy.world avatar

    “We want to charge you more, but we want to make sure you blame our wait staff for it.”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the QR code sends you to a website bitching about “the current administration”.

    LordOfTheChia ,

    From the site they link to:

    What About Tips?

    If customers have exceptional service, we encourage them to tip our employees at the percentage or amount they feel comfortable with.

    Maybe they should change the “Suggested Tips” with “Had exceptional service? Feel free to add a tip.” and start at 5%

    Also, they should be clear if all or part of the “service charge” goes towards employee salaries.

    From:

    www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge

    Skyline969 ,
    @Skyline969@lemmy.world avatar

    Any auto-grat on a bill is an instant big fat 0 on the tip line for me. Fuck double dipping on customers subsidizing shitty wages. It shouldn’t even need to happen once. If the restaurant can’t pay a reasonable wage it shouldn’t be in business.

    I would be completely okay with a restaurant charging a bit more for meals if they also had a “do not tip” policy. Wait staff should be expected to do their jobs, the restaurant should be expected to pay their employees. As a customer I should be expected to pay the restaurant, full stop.

    RedAggroBest ,

    This isn’t an auto grat tho? This is them saying “You pay more so our employees get better pay, you pay exactly this much more for this effect”. Instead of them just cranking up prices like normal.

    Y’all are bitching and moaning about a restaurant being honest instead of just fucking charging more.

    TheSaneWriter ,
    @TheSaneWriter@lemmy.thesanewriter.com avatar

    This isn’t an auto-grat. The receipt explicitly says “This is not a tip or gratuity” and has a recommended tip line. This restaurant is either double-dipping to pay their employees less or scamming their customers.

    magikfish ,

    If it’s not an auto-grat why not just raise the prices on the menu 18 percent instead of surprising customers at checkout. Setting prices to cover your business and staff is an important part of running any business. The way they’re doing it is intentianally deceptive. Even down to saying that this is so that they can pay staff instead of just advertising the actual prices in the menu.

    Waldowal ,
    @Waldowal@lemmy.world avatar

    This isn’t an auto-grat situation though. This is the restaurant increasing their prices by 18%, then blaming it on the staff.

    By not tipping, you’re just punishing the wait staff for the restaurant’s shitty behavior. Better to tip normally, then tell the restaurant you won’t be back until they get their heads out of their asses.

    TheActualDevil ,

    Well, no. The service charge is there so the restaurant can use it to pay the wait staff if they don’t make enough in tips to equal minimum wage and they have to pay the difference. So if we tip, none of that money goes to the wait staff and goes entirely to the business. If they’re going to add a percentage charge to add to the base pay of their servers, then they should just pay them a living wage and not expect/encourage tipping. This is a business trying to take advantage of tipping culture and make a little bit more on top of their already established profits. I say we call their bluff and make them give that money to the staff.

    Waldowal ,
    @Waldowal@lemmy.world avatar

    Well, no: dailymail.co.uk/…/Jon-Vinnys-sued-waiters-service…

    FlowVoid ,

    It’s a service charge. That implies the money is going to the staff. So they are already getting approximately what they would have been tipped.

    Now, maybe “service charge” is a lie and they aren’t actually seeing that money. But if so, then the waitstaff are complicit in that lie, because they handed it to me. And if I’m supposed to assume they are lying then I’m certainly not tipping them.

    Waldowal ,
    @Waldowal@lemmy.world avatar

    It sort of is going to them, but not entirely. The restaurant is called Jon and Vinney’s. I linked to an article somewhere else in this post about them. The restaurant has explained that they do it because the minimum wage in Los Angeles is $16.04. Basically, as a way to be dicks about it, they decided to add the surcharge to the bill to point out very specifically to their customers how much more they have to pay so they can afford to pay their staff $16.04 / hr.

    In their minds, they probably feel like they are villifying the government of CA, but, as you’ve noted, most people just confuse it as “auto-gratuity” and then stiff the wait staff out of extra money they would have otherwise gotten.

    phillaholic ,

    I wouldn’t go back, but your anger is towards management not the worker. I’d still tip in this situation.

    squaresinger ,

    What is this nonsense? I mean, since the customers are the only source of income for a restaurant, of course the customers pay for the wages.

    But why hide that behind obscure markups (that’s all a service charge/tip is)? Why not just price the food 18% higher and drop the service charge?

    That way, the restaurant earns the same money, but the customers actually know what they are going to pay and the restaurant visit doesn’t end on a down note when paying.

    MDKAOD ,

    You’re stating the obvious. The owners are making a political statement.

    tony , (edited )

    People look at the menu, decide the prices are reasonable and eat. They then get hit with an 18% service charge and (in the US) a 20% tip on top.

    The restaurant could increase their prices by 18%, but then people would decide to eat elsewhere. Of course they’ll do that anyway after being hit with all the charges, but the owner thinks it’s worth it to get the custom once.

    ChickenLadyLovesLife ,

    Wild that somebody would decide $22.25 is reasonable for chicken wings. Maybe for 100 of them …

    tony ,

    They seem to be massively overcharging, which makes the whole thing a lot wilder. At those prices they could afford to pay their staff well and abolish both tips and service charge…

    Suspect the owner is just a knob.

    nan ,
    @nan@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    It’s in LA, everything is expensive and well is very relative. Minimum wage is almost $17.

    Halosheep ,

    Why would you tip when the restaurant just pre-charged an 18% tip? They say it isn’t a tip but it goes to the employees so, unless the service staff was beyond exemplary, just don’t tip. It’s less than I would have anyway.

    squaresinger ,

    I wouldn’t tip on that either.

    watcher ,

    Does anyone now if the restaurant pays different taxes on food/drinks sold and tip/service fees?

    Tkrun42 ,

    In Washington (everywhere is different) a service fee is taxed as income to the restaurant. A restaurant is not taxed on tips. It’s better for the restaurant to not do a service fee (less taxes) than tips

    If a Washington restaurant is charging a service fee, it has to be posted. The verbiage has to say how it’s being used/if the restaurant is taking any portion

    malloc ,

    Name and shame. Fuck this place.

    Also “kids shells” for $22? Please tell me this is not macaroni and cheese.

    TheSaneWriter ,
    @TheSaneWriter@lemmy.thesanewriter.com avatar

    It’s almost certainly a Mac & Cheese variant. Stuff like this is why I heavily research restaurant prices before going out.

    baked_tea ,

    Gem lettuce for $22? Wtf is the US smoking?

    malloc ,

    Just Los Angeles things 🤷‍♂️

    ZombiFrancis ,

    Since it is L.A. the markup is because of the volume of people willing/able to pay $22 for a kids Mac and cheese. At that point the tip is just mocking the workers of the restaurant.

    arvere ,

    the most concerning part for me is the “LA woman” charge… is that just a restaurant?

    uberrice ,

    I mean, that’s basically the way it works. Here it’s just ‘transparent’.

    Want to pay workers more - food gets more expensive. It’s the same thing with America not adding sales tax to the sticker price. When I get something for 2 bucks in Europe, it’s 2 bucks including the vat. In America, it’s 2 bucks before vat.

    But yeah, it’s probably not properly implemented and just a scheme to get more money out of people.

    arsenick ,

    Except it’s contingent on people making purchases. If there is a slow day, you work the same amount of hours but earn less because your pay isn’t tied to how many hours you worked, but how many sales were made. By doing it this way, it takes the risk of running business off the owners shoulders and puts it on the workers instead.

    uberrice ,

    What i meant is that, in a theoretical mathematically sound world, to support higher wages, you need higher prices. The service charge shouldn’t be put as a ‘bonus salary’ - basically the ‘service charge’ in most countries is included in the price of the food, and is paid out as the hourly wage to staff.

    ThrowawayPermanente ,

    Wait a minute, are you suggesting restaurants are just normal businesses that can be run like any other? Because that’s heresy. Restaurants are Special, because Reasons.

    notatoad ,

    This is the opposite of transparent. When I order food, I’m agreeing the pay the listed price for the item I ordered. Adding 18% on top of that when it comes time to pay is hiding that fee.

    If they want to charge more, they should raise their prices

    uberrice ,

    Well yeah, that was my point.

    Americans for some reason love this 'low low price of x$ (+tax +tip +service charge +fuck you charge) thing. Here in Switzerland, it’s all in the price. Menu says 40 bucks, you pay 40 bucks. Tips are very voluntary and usually just a “round up” -> total is 57 - let’s make it 60.

    My wife works in a restaurant and gets around 3.7k a month - the tips she gets add up to around 300-700, depending on the month. In the store she works, tips get handled as a pool where everyone gets their monthly share depending on hours worked (serving staff and kitchen) - so total tips x person hours / total hours by everyone.

    It’s still a low wage (I make around than double her wage, but then again I’m an electrical engineer), but it is very livable - I lived on a lower wage alone comfortably when I was studying and only working 50%

    tapdattl ,

    Also by making it a service fee instead of a tip, management and the owners are able to tale part of it. Tips legally have to go to the employees, service fees can go into the owner’s pockets.

    pivot_root ,

    The service they’re giving you is information. Specifically, information on where to never eat again.

    I hate tipping culture, but this is just on another level of bullshit. I’ll begrudgingly subsidize a server’s wage, but there ain’t no way I’m about to help line the pockets of the greedy fucks who refuse to pay a living wage.

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