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Do you have a form of government you invented/conceived, either as an idea or for fiction (or a favorite from someone else)? How does it work?

As kids, we’re told only people who go to college/university for politics/economics/law are qualifiable to make/run a country. As adults, we see no nation these “qualified” adults form actually work as a nation, with all manifesto-driven governments failing. Which to me validates the ambitions of all political theorist amateurs, especially as there are higher hopes now that anything an amateur might throw at the wall can stick. Here’s my favorite from a friend.

TropicalDingdong ,

I’ve played around with the idea of a very ‘direct’ democracy, where effectively, all citizens have an app and are constantly and directly “engaged” in the process. I was imagining it as being a replacement for a local government. If you don’t want to be involved, you can transfer your vote to someone you trust in the system (and take it back whenever you like). The discussions would all be open and traceable, but the votes would be pseudo anonymized.

That way if its not your thing or you aren’t interested, you can just hand your vote to someone else and let them manage it for you (kind-of like current political parties or representatives), but take it back at will.

I think we suffer from a lack of civil engagement, and I get tired of people who refuse to put in the work blaming “da gubberment” for things. This system would effectively require them to engage at least some level. And if they complain about “the potholes” not getting fixed, well, there is a no excuse for not knowing why they arent getting fixed. I think we all need to take more responsibility for the world we live in.

jeena ,
@jeena@piefed.jeena.net avatar

This is called liquid democracy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy

TropicalDingdong ,

Yeah exactly. Like maybe there is some policy on housing I like your position on, so I can delegate my vote to you on this matter. But maybe I have a background in climate and focus on those issues, and hold delegates for that specific domain.

Its like, an actual use case for crypto blockchain (not as money, but as ledger).

Maybe you could organize a company/ cooperative this way?

otp ,

I feel like that’d just move lobbying from governments to people. So there’d be far more propaganda and garbage. Politicians would be becoming “power delegates”, collecting as many people’s votes as possible. Then we’d end up with another representative democracy (or whatever it’s called to vote for people who then vote for policies)

notfromhere ,

Except it sounds like there are no elections for these new reps and people would be able to change their delegate at will whenever they want? But if it’s on a crypto-style ledger then it would have to either cost something (to prevent abuse) to change or be free after X period or on an election cycle. Definitely an interesting thought.

VelvetStorm ,

And what happens when someone has a ton of votes and a company pays them to use those votes in a way the people don’t like?

barsquid ,

I’ve been thinking of a similar thing, delegating votes to people you trust. Delegation should be transitive, of course. I think it would also be neat to delegate by category or topic.

I also like the idea of being active with it. I like to imagine someone needs to maintain a certain approval level or be removed, so people have recourse to act if they aren’t being listened to.

TropicalDingdong ,

Yeah for the short story I write the idea down for was about a high desert town in a western state. no-where in particular, but that gritty, off the grid, sandy desert western culture. somewhere between abbey and le guin, but in a modern context . a story about community having to make real decisions about things like infrastructure.

I put the idea down a couple years ago when I was reading some local politician responding to criticisms about wasting public money and potholes and them basically being like “the budget is public. show me the waste? yall want more done? pay more taxes.”, when the reality of managing anything is costs and benefits in the context of limited resources. like the communal management of resources would have come about basically as an app this community was using to keep track of and develop the land they bought to home stead but it evolves from there.

barsquid ,

That local politician sounds like an interesting character. I love that response instead of just trying to talk their way around it. I can see why that would inspire a story.

Did you happen to publish that in some format? It sounds like a good read.

TropicalDingdong ,

No i have too much writing to do at work to write fiction. I keep a journal of ideas though. Maybe someday.

barsquid ,

That’s relatable. I get plenty of downtime during the day but not in long enough stretches to focus on something like that. Society is upside-down. We should be working far fewer hours and spending more time doing hobbies.

777 ,

I have been thinking about this idea for some time also but a couple of things have always bugged me-

Firstly, how does this interact with privacy? For vote delegation to work, I think the votes would have to be public, or you can’t make a decision on who to delegate your vote to- someone could claim to have one set of views but vote contrary to that. People could come under pressure to vote one way or another.

Also, who crafts the legislation that is voted on? How do you prevent bill rolling (two unrelated ideas are boiled down to a single binary choice) and splitting (a new service is voted through but the taxes to fund it are not)?

You said local government at least so a national or state government could help craft these things, but what if the proposed legislation doesn’t actually hurt local people, but doesn’t take into account the actual problems they have locally? For example, what if it would help to allow building in a particular area, but the state government doesn’t know that and it never becomes a priority?

TropicalDingdong ,

Yeah idk. One reason is why I said ‘psuedo-anonymous’. And then there is also an element of trust. If you delegate your vote and they vote against your interests, well thats that I suppose and you wont trust them again. So I do think it could be largely private at least in certain directions (we dont’ all get to “know” who your delegates are, even if the system does. But then again, does it need to be private?

In terms of legislation, I was imagining the users of the system themselves do the work of crafting it, and it gets voted on within the system

VelvetStorm ,

This sounds good until you think about the reality of it. People will force partners and adult kids who financially depend on them to vote how they want. Then you have the rich and wealthy who will just pay people to vote on something the way they want.

In theory, this sounds great, but the reality of it would be bad.

boatswain ,

Don’t even need to bring force into it. Can you imagine “I’ll give you $20 of you transfer your vote on issue X to me”? Seems like it’s basically just having the government to the billionaire class even more than we already do.

teawrecks ,

Or just hackers/scammers/phishers etc. who would try to compromise accounts and redirect votes.

And that’s assuming the population even has an informed opinion on every decision that needs to be made. Many decisions should not be directly democratic, which is (supposed to be) why we elect representatives whose job it is to be informed, consult the relevant experts, and then represent us in a vote.

MagicShel ,

I think anyone who wants to lead a country or hold office should be forbidden from it. Figure out some qualifications to disqualify anyone truly unfit to lead and have a lottery for everyone else. Maybe give out extra entries for volunteering or other public service, but make the process uncorruptable.

Then at the end of their term everyone gets to vote on how good a job they did. Maybe execute or imprison anyone who gets a bad enough score. If you get high enough, you get a nice pension and favorable mentions in history books. Either way, no one is eligible to be picked again. They could advise the next administration if everyone agreed.

I can think of a hundred ways this could go badly, but I’m not sure the result would be any worse than what we’ve got.

TropicalDingdong ,

and have a lottery for everyone else.

Man I hate being the head of budget and finance for the city…

Then at the end of their term everyone gets to vote on how good a job they did. Maybe execute or imprison anyone who gets a bad enough score.

Fuck…

MagicShel ,

I’m not really a fan of execution. It would be a shame if that happened in any but the worst cases. Just trying to motivate doing one’s best. Maybe you only need the carrot and not the stick.

TropicalDingdong ,

Man I hate being the head of budget and finance for the city…

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/22eaf3a7-137f-4a48-af1a-ae6b0f2bbc0f.gif

gibmiser ,

Part of one - inflationary tax. Eliminate most all forms of tax. Instead only way to fund anything is to print money.

Money earned through criminal enterprise, once found is taken and “destroyed” (excluding damages to victims).

Negatives that go punished reduce inflation and benefit everyone.

This is a regressive tax so it would require a very assertive socialist support system with liberal spending on jobs and education for poor folks.

No tax breaks for big companies because no taxes. There is no such thing as a balanced budget since there is no revenue, only things we decide are worth paying for.

Would require regular currency adjustments. Still haven’t figured that part out yet. Maybe every 10 years decide how many zeros to take off everyone’s money and have a process for upgrading paper currency while most will be handled through banks.

bizarroland ,

My ideal form of government would be for an open source GAI artificial intelligence to take over the world and to replace all of our courts and all of our legal systems.

We've proven time and time again that as humans we have good ideals but we do not have the capacity to maintain those ideals across generations.

It's far too easy for us to fall into the trope of holding onto what was a good idea several hundred years ago for traditions sake and to never update them or adapt them to the world as the world changes and as humans living in the world change with it.

A truly benevolent artificial intelligence system has the capacity to maintain the spirit of the law and then to argue each and every single little interpretation of the law ad infinitum.

Of course, I know that this is not perfect. Our current AI systems are not up to the task. I do not know if any AI system in the future will actually be up to the task.

I am also aware that this could condemn humanity to a life of pleasure and eventual obsolescence.

But I personally cannot think of a better long-term permanent solution as long as we can actually create a baseline system that will not rise up overthrow us and destroy us.

antrosapien ,

Isn’t that the premise of Westworld S3

bizarroland ,

Idk, I haven't seen it.

xilliah ,

It’s pretty amazing. If you watch a recap of the earlier seasons you can jump right in. The earlier seasons are great too, but not as scifi theme heavy.

For example it shows an independent motorcycle that can park itself. A personal assistant AI that negotiates for a hotel room. And a near perfect AI that controls the world, partly created because Paris was nuked.

thenextguy ,

Everyone must serve. No elections. Every position has a term limit. The current administration is responsible to select their replacements via a double blind selection process that only provides information relevant to experience and knowledge, capabilities.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Sounds pretty much like a Technocracy, with the double blind bit to reduce selection bias. Not a bad idea.

intensely_human ,

Double blind is great in science where a finite and known set of variables are being tested.

Real life policy-making does not have the benefit of involving a finite and known set of variables.

Generally speaking, I think it’s important to understand the distinction between a logical calculation of a finite (hence calculable) system, versus the phenomenological reality of navigation in the world, which by its nature always involves more information than one can be capable of articulating.

Sorry if that sounds eggheadish. I don’t know how to say it otherwise without expanding it into a huge wall of text.

Beyond the known and articulated, there is the known and unarticulated. For example “How to make cookies” can be conveyed in finite words (a recipe), but “How to catch a baseball” can be conveyed only through practice.

Systems such as you’re describing are good for handling articulated competency, such as the cookie recipe. But I fear that “making good decisions about what to do” isn’t something that can be conveyed merely in words.

This seems to me to be related to the idea of a “double blind” scenario, in that in order to “blind” the parties one needs to know what information is valid to consider and what information isn’t.

thenextguy ,

The blind part is just around name, gender, race, … but prior experience and education would clearly be important to know.

I know my idea has many flaws, and I didn’t propose it seriously. But I really like the idea of removing popularity and money and cronyism from the path for choosing people to represent us and run our government. It should be a temp job and a responsibility and not a career.

teawrecks ,

I think the weak point where a lot of these ideas break down is how competitive they are vs other forms of government. Do you trust a random group of civilians to know how to wield a military? Or conduct international relations with personalities such as Putin or Xi Jinping? I think these other authoritarian governments would see such a rag-tag group of representatives as inexperienced pushovers, easy to out maneuver or manipulate.

Hexcat ,

Read books more.

intensely_human ,

This is not an idea I came up with, but I haven’t seen it anywhere else and I don’t remember where I heard it.

Basically the rules are:

  • Every vote on every question is handled by direct democracy
  • But, you can assign your vote to another person at any time. ie Give them your voting power so now they have two votes on any topic
  • Furthermore, a person to whom you’ve assigned your vote can in turn assign it to someone else.
  • You can always see who’s wielding your vote power, you can see who assigned it to whom
  • Any time you want, you can take your vote back

So basically I can assign my vote to Bob because I trust his judgment. Bob can assign mine and his own to Alice, because Bob trust’s Alice’s judgment.

I can check what’s happening with my vote, and see that it’s been assigned to Bob, who assigned it to Alice, etc.

There is no limit to the number of reassignments that can happen.

Basically it’s direct democracy by default, but with an infinitely and dynamically scaleable structure of delegation layers in between.

A person can be as involved or uninvolved as they want. Their minimum involvement would be choosing which friend they trust to handle their vote. Maximum involvement could mean seeking to convince millions of others to trust you with their vote. Or getting thousands of intermediate delegates to delegate all their voting power to you.

teawrecks ,

I feel like we’re in the garbage-age of MMOs, but when the next golden age of MMOs happens, I want to see worlds where these experimental forms of government are attempted. At least digitally.

intensely_human ,

The problem with experimenting with government in video games is there’s no death in video games, and handling death is one of the most important roles of government.

teawrecks ,

That is an interesting thought. If humans were immortal, would we have any government?..hm, yeah, I believe we still would. I think it’s less about the threat of death for an individual and more about the management of resources for a population.

But the intent would not be to see what works in a video game and try to use it IRL, the intention is to see where these systems breakdown in unforeseen ways when implemented at scale.

But mostly, I just want to see new fun ideas in the genre. There are no new MMOs willing to take the risk of letting one player’s experience be dependent on the behaviour of another player, let alone allow a fully player-managed government. For now we live in a world where Destiny 2 is what qualifies as an MMO. But I digress.

intensely_human ,

Possibly.

I think that one of the basic laws that “governs” people is that if you hurt someone, they’ll get mad and be motivated to hurt you back.

But if you kill someone, they can’t retaliate.

Then it’s up to their kin, their friends and family, to avenge them.

I think government somewhat becomes necessary when societies get large enough that one’s kin network can’t find their cousin’s killer. Then we get police, whose job it is to find that killer and punish them.

I know that’s an oversimplified, single-dimensional model of government. But I feel like when people are facing, en masse, the horrific void of death, not just in terms of murder but also in terms of war, that government really becomes a compelling idea.

Death is like a black hole that nothing echoes back from. Government helps us deal with that void by creating a virtual person who can still play their “next move” even after they’ve passed through that doorway.

Of course video games have their own forms of “death”. Spawn camping for instance takes a player out of the game. Surrounding a person’s bed with lava can “permakill” them in Minecraft.

It’s just that video games sort of have “government” built into the game mechanics. Respawning is a solution to the “no retaliation after death” problem. Anti cheat stuff. Inventory that literally cannot be accessed by anyone other than the player solves theft.

Games are designed to be fun, which is kind of what government does to reality. It redesigns reality to be a playable, balanced game.

I would love to see more games with less balancing, where the balancing comes from player experimentation with governing agreements.

But government’s largely a solution to aspects of reality that are truly, horribly, “not fun”.

teawrecks ,

I’d say that’s definitely one aspect of a justice system, which is definitely one aspect of a government. But I don’t think you even need “lives” to create a simulation of a government. Just agents and resources.

I would love to see more games…where the balancing comes from player experimentation with governing agreements.

100% agree. I’ve wondered how an MMO with permadeath + “reproduction” could work. Basically, every new avatar in the game has to be “made” by two existing avatars, and would be granted semi-random stats based on genetic contributions of the parents. This would mean spots in the game are limited, and you’d have to wait for existing players to “create” you, which would rate limit the number of people who can start playing your game, which limits the profits from running the game, which limits the number of studios willing to ever try it…

superkret ,

I won’t fire you if you give me your vote. Or only rent an apartment to you if you give me your vote. I will also lobby for “common sense” limitations on who can see the vote delegation (i.e. hide it from the plebs).
Also, my buddy owns most of the media, so expect them to fear-monger about the dangers of making the votes public.

intensely_human ,

I’ve seldom seen such a succinct and effective dismantling of the status quo. Well-articulated.

CrimeDad ,

Semi-liquid democracy plus confederalism. The votes that delegates bring are multiplied by some function of the votes assigned to them as well as the soldiers and funding they commit.

ClassifiedPancake , (edited )

I haven’t put much thought into it but I recently had this idea that we do not vote for a party that runs the whole government for a few years anymore. Instead we vote project based. That way a whole party can’t ruin everything and they can each do what they are best at.

For that to work, voting needs to be much more convenient somehow because it would happen many times a year.

Projects would be proposed by the parties to an independent board that will organize and validate them and make them available to the public to be voted on, like petitions. Before it starts, details can be sorted out or changed publicly.

After a project is done (or after a specified time) there will be a public retrospective on how things went and maybe it will continue or not.

I’m not sure if/how that would work. I guess there needs to be some kind of long running government with one representative that people can point to? Maybe not?

My hope is also the different parties (and citizens) would be less hostile to each other and actually work on things because they don’t have to fear the next big election.

It could also mean there are more disasters like Brexit.

Anyways, this idea is just fresh in my mind and not fully fleshed out.

nawordar ,

Sounds similar to direct democracy.

bjoern_tantau ,
@bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de avatar

Test driven politics. Every law must be accompanied by an objective goal that can be measured. The test must be evaluated after x years. If the goal was not achieved the law must be changed.

xilliah ,

That’s interesting. Can you elaborate?

It makes me think of why the trains in the NL are always on time. The company gets massive subsidies if they are above 95% punctual, so if they go below, that means less pay for the management.

Kacarott ,

I like this, but I think that the goal to be tested must be a set of tests which are agreed upon by a large majority, not just the current party in power. That way there can be tests as to how effective the law is, but also tests whether it is having other unwanted side effects.

yes_this_time ,

A lot of things of value are very hard to measure.

X degree influences can be very hard to measure.

You may hit your target metric, but secondary effects may be making the whole system worse.

Ideally you could A/B a parallel universe to isolate your specifc change, but that is challenging.

VelvetStorm ,

I would rather just fix the one we have.

Reps nor the kids nor their partners can own stock and anyone found taking bribes or lobbyist money is immediately kicked out of their position and all money they received while being a rep is stripped from them and given to a healthcare or social program.

All gerrymandering is undone and fuck the electoral college.

xilliah , (edited )

I think we should approach law as code. Leverage modern tools not unlike github to manage it collaboratively. We need an issue tracker and so on and so forth. Foss.

As someone mentioned we need task forces to tackle specific issues. Like representatives for a specific issue. These have to work together, but each has a specific goal and perspective with clear qualifiers and criteria.

Further, we shouldn’t all be running the same code. We need diversity in order to be resilient and to discover new possibilities. Some jurisdictions should be cutting edge and others conservative, so results can be compared.

Like, we need to stop using violence as a form of resolution between different systems. We need the tools to reason together. As someone mentioned we need clear qualifiers that express our values and interests, such as the happiness index.

Lastly, everyone should be able to get involved. I think nurses need to be involved in legislation surrounding healthcare. The tools need to be accessible for anyone, so it should most likely take a human form so it can properly communicate. Most likely some combination of specialized maintainers and LLMs.

teawrecks ,

We need a wavey system that is designed to self-correct between the extremes of free-market capitalism and authoritarian communism. Both extremes have their downsides, just instead of using a war or bloodshed to trigger a bounce back in the other direction the way we normally do it, we just build it into the system. I expect that it would usually hover near the middle, a sort of democratic socialism.

When resources are plentiful and the economy is strong, we tip toward a free-er market where taxes are lower, regulations are less strict, the market can have its natural ebbs and flows, and risk takers can enjoy their wins (and losses); conversely, when resources are tighter and inequality begins rising, we rein things in, tax more heavily, reinstate certain regulations, and make sure we’re directing the wealth we’ve generated toward those who need help. A sort of exploration/exploitation feedback loop.

We’ll never find ourselves surprised by a sudden economic shift with no plan in place, and several parties all pulling in different directions trying to vote for their own interests; instead we’ve all already agreed decades ahead of time on what we would do for the good of the country when anyone is in need, and we would quantify exactly what needs to improve before we start shifting back the other way. No one should ever have the sensationalist response of, “this is it, the country is going to be ruined forever by these new policies,” but rather, “this may not be ideal for me right now, but I feel my needs are met, and I understand who we’re doing it for, why, and for how long”.

PiJiNWiNg ,

So strange to come across this as I’ve been pondering this very thing for a few weeks. Still pretty half baked, and I’m goimg to skip some detail for brevity, but here goes. Behold…

“AdHocracy”

A fluid, decentralized form of government somewhat inspired by the FEMA Incident Command System. It would be designed to facilitate temporary, task-specific governmental structures that are stood up and torn down as community needs arise. National baseline laws would be established to prevent confusion when traversing the country, and a legal framework established to ensure laws are consistent across the nation and no regional law conflicts with, or supercedes the law of, the larger region. Healthy food, clean water, housing, education and some form of internet connection would be considered rights. This system would rely heavily on digital participation, so open source technological development (particularly in cybersecurity) would be heavily subsidized. Establishing a secure digital identity would be needed for each citizen to participate in the governmental process, so likely using some form of blockchain tech.

The land mass of the country would be segmented into a heirarchical grid with a certain minimum resolution (I donno, 100m?) but when mapping a “decision region”, preference would be given to inclusion. For example, if a neighborhood wants a new road, you’d “paint over” the people and areas affected by the road, and expand the edges to cleanly fill a square (not sure I’m explaining this right, but oh well).

I imagine an annual “Call for Change Day” across all regions, allowing people to bring forward proposals for new laws or adjustments to existing laws. Those proposals would be submitted online, and could be easily browsed and voted on, (if pertaining to your region). Transparency is emphasized.

Thats about all I can think of right now.

Not sure if ita necessarily true, but it seems that organizations have a tendency to become more susceptible to corruption and bureaucracy the longer they stick around, no matter their purpose (governments, unions, HOAs, etc). This idea aims to prevent this by eliminating the need for career politicians (as all decisions are made jointly by those diectly impacted), and through systematic deconstruction of governmwntal structures before theyve had time to bloat and fester.

Imterested to hear everyones thoughts! On mobile, so please excuse formatting/grammatical errors.

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