A dead person near a hospital?!? Say it ain’t so doc, people can’t die at hospitals of all places. Everyone knows Dairy Queen is the place to take a hostage for medical care.
If a hostage is injured where would you take them? The supermarket? There’s a lot of odd shit going on but injured people taken to the hospital is not it.
Much smaller ones without trauma wards on the same par. They’ve been fighting a war with Israel for decades, they know which hospitals are the best and which ones have Israeli sympathizers as well. Why exactly they chose that hospital we do not know but what we can say is so far the evidence of a centre of gravity are extremely weak.
Ed: similarly they’ve shown one unbooby trapped, unguarded tunnel without tons of boot prints. And moreover the video is not off anything being cleared and has it’s location removed.
They’ve been fighting a war with Israel for decades, they know which hospitals are the best
They know which ones have the best access to their tunnel network.
It’s hilarious you’re trying to suggest they were taking people to the hospital altruisticly. That’s so far from reality it’s not even worth an argument.
It’s propaganda Israel has killed somewhere between 10 and 14 thousand by third party estimate?.. But yes we’re spreading propaganda with common sense a and third party verification. Sure.
It’s either the opening shots of a gazan genocide or an effective ethnic cleansing, pick your poison. Either way shitty murderous behavior that needs to stop.
The video of the guy holding a rocket launcher next to a different hospital? Israel lost me the moment they tampered with the evidence before news crews came. Wait no they lost me the moment they tried to convince us that that one calendar was a Hamas guard shift list.
No major news organisation has been given the opportunity to verify this footage. As such it should be treated sceptically until verified independently. The IDF have already been caught editing and altering video evidence, as demonstrated by the BBC.
But lets say it is unedited and is verified. What does it show? It shows Hamas operatives taking two injured hostages into a hospital. That’s it. The IDF says "These findings prove that the Hamas terror organization used Shifa Hospital on the day of the massacre itself as terror infrastructure,”
Well, no, it doesn’t. It shows that some Hamas terrorists used the hospital…as a hospital e.g. they took injured hostages into it. Just because terrorists make use of a location’s facilities doesn’t necessarily mean there was an extensive command post in or under the location.
The IDF have yet to demonstrate or provide anything credible to back up their claim the hospital was an extensive command post.
“The latest video is not yet the evidence that’s been promised of the sort of vast and intricate operation depicted in a computer simulation which the IDF previously released showing what it believes any Hamas base underground at al-Shifa could look like.”
And do all those other hospitals offer identical and appropriate services? Because in my local area there are three hospitals, all offering differing types of services, meaning that depending on what I needed treatment for I would have to drive reasonably close to two of them, including emergency care.
This feels like a real stretch - that map you linked to - the straight line goes near (ish) two other hospitals, not five for example. Maybe the hostages didn’t require hospital treatment until they were in that area? Who knows? Your assigning meaning to actions based solely on your desire for it to be true, not on actual evidence.
But OK, lets say you’re right and they ignored all the other hospitals because their goal was that area in particular - how does that equate to that hospital being a major and extensive command post when literally nothing that’s been presented as evidence by the IDF demonstrates that opinion? Surely if it was then there’d be a lot more than a few random terrorists on those stills.
Let me put it another way - if three or four Hamas terrorists took thirsty hostages to a Starbucks, would you see that as definitive proof that that Starbucks is, or is on top of, an extensive Hamas command post?
At some point you’re going to need actual evidence, independently verified. Not just unexplained, unverified crap that could mean anything.
Good grief, do you really not understand that some hospitals offer different types of treatment to others???
Not all hospitals are set up for emergency treatment. Seriously.
But lets (once more) give you the benefit of the doubt and say all those hospitals are the same size and offer the exact treatment that that one does…how does that establish that hospital as a major command centre for Hamas? That’s the IDF’s rationale for attacking that hospital after all.
Look, I am not saying that hospital is a Hamas free zone, that no one form Hamas has ever been in it. I’m not even saying that it isn’t Hamas’ favoured hospital because of it’s location or maybe there are a few Hamas-friendly people on staff there. I mean, there is zero evidence for any of that but it’s a possibility, right? It’s also a possibility that you and the IDF are absolutely correct and it really is a major command centre for Hamas.
What I’m saying to you is that, based on what the IDF have presented as evidence - none of it verified, and that which has been examined revealed to have been altered/edited and all of it completely shorn of any context by which we might be able to make inferences - there’s pretty much nothing to suggest it is/was.
Not all hospitals are set up for emergency treatment. Seriously.
Hospitals in that part of the world aren’t organized by western standards. Besides which I doubt a hamas terrorist is thinking about a hospital’s quality of care, even if they knew it existed in the first place.
What I’m saying to you is that, based on what the IDF have presented as evidence - none of it verified, and that which has been examined revealed to have been altered/edited and all of it completely shorn of any context by which we might be able to make inferences - there’s pretty much nothing to suggest it is/was.
Hospitals in that part of the world aren’t organized by western standards.
I’m not suggesting they are. I’m simply suggesting to you that no two hospitals offer the same level of services, or even the same services.
Besides which I doubt a hamas terrorist is thinking about a hospital’s quality of care, even if they knew it existed in the first place.
I’m pretty sure that, aside from a medical professional, a terrorist is the ideal person to ask about the services a hospital is capable of delivering.
So I shouldn’t believe my lying eyes. I see
Your eyes aren’t what’s lying. You’re lying to yourself if you genuinely believe what the IDF have presented as incontrovertible proof isn’t very severely lacking in just about every respect. They’ve literally been caught doctoring video.
If the sides were reversed here…if a major hospital in Israel was being attacked and disabled by a vastly superior force and everyone in it either killed or forced to move because this force said a terrorist group had a major operational base there and they presented the exact same evidence as the IDF have, would you believe it then?
a major hospital in Israel was being attacked and disabled by a vastly superior force and everyone inal it either killed or forced to move because this force said a terrorist group had a major operational base there and they presented…
But, that’s not what happened. Israel took the hospital without harming anyone. Before that happened, they provided fuel for the hospitals generators which Hamas didn’t let them have. It stopped functioning as a hospital and the WHO shut it down.
If you genuinely believe that then us having this conversation is pointless. The IDF themselves confirmed they’d sent about 100 Commando’s and six tanks to the hospital which several days before had lost power and oxygen leading to multiple deaths. To spell it out to you, you send commandos and tanks to attack and intimidate, not have a pleasant chat.
The fuel thing - I have no idea who to believe at this point. There’s no verified evidence either claim is true or untrue.
I imagine they did, yet no one was hurt in the hospital.
Right, apart from the multiple deaths no one was hurt.
It’s funny. The video of Israelis delivering fuel was even on CNN. Must be my lying eyes again.
Yeah, I saw that too. Funnily enough, as I thought I was clear about, I wasn’t disputing they did. I was disputing why or how it was refused.
Anyway, after that interesting little side mission, lets get back to the point. if a major hospital in Israel was being attacked and disabled by a vastly superior force and everyone in it either killed or forced to move because this force said a terrorist group had a major operational base there and they presented the exact same evidence as the IDF have, would you believe it then?
If you’re a fellow American, please stop weighing in on this whole thing. We shouldn’t be propping up Israel to begin with. We shouldn’t be involved in this at all.
Our support of Israel was certainly factored into Hamas’s decision to escalate things. And the blowback we’ll get from unconditionally supporting Israel is completely, COMPLETELY predictable.
Covid gave us an opportunity to turn the page on the war on terror, and now our unwavering support for one side of this conflict is going to prompt some yahoo to commit something stupid, and start the war on terror up all over again.
There is no upside in supporting one side over the other in this one - we need to sit it out. Stop sending billions to Israel every year and providing a pretext for some sort of revenge attack on us. Saudi doesn’t care what we think anymore, OPEC is going to do whatever it wants.
The US foreign affairs community seems to be of the opinion that our involvement in Israel and its recognition by KSA or any other big player in the region is going to secure the status of the petrodollar. But de-dollarization is going to happen anyway, thanks to BRICS.
So we’ll continue to sell arms to Saudi Arabia while they continue to not supply us with enough oil to keep prices low, and we’ll continue to prop up Israel while they continue to piss off the entire region.
Yeah, to us they’re hostages, sure. But if every citizen of the other nation happens to be a reservist after their gap year of service, they’re unarmed ‘enemy’ soldiers on extended leave.
I’m sure the answer is somewhere in the middle and can’t be so simply decided on the outside by people who sleep soundly at night.
The Palestinian Authority somehow took a more extreme position than both Hamas and the Israeli police.
The facts are that helicopters were used to indiscriminately target people in the kill zone and likely killed Israeli civilians, but the helicopters were by no means the only cause of casualties in Re’im. To claim that helicopters killed all 364 people doesn’t pass the sniff test.
It’s futile, Israel. You lost the PR war. The younger gens hate you now. As more Boomers die off, your political and financial base in the West will erode, leaving you open to the wolves. If I am a young Israeli, I would look for a country to emigrate to. The next 25 years will be brutal for you.
timesofisrael.com
Oldest