Have you ever seen soldiers in rat holes? Tip number one, you have night vision use it, second don’t run, third don’t run with a flashlight down a hall you can’t see down.
No, it fucking isn’t. They weren’t there for treatment.
What I expect from hostage takers is brutality, murder, and the intentional targeting of civilians, which is what they did. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously as a government, and not what they are - a terrorist organization that is as bad, if not worse, for Palestinians as the oppression from Israel - then I expect something else: NOT TAKING HOSTAGES.
Lol, nobody’s saying they’re a proper government. Everyone agrees they’re terrorists. All I’m saying is that a hospital treating hostages doesn’t make it part of a terrorist entreprise.
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital
And
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
So, you’re wrong about both assertions. The IDF themselves say they were both wounded, and that after treatment they were moved to a different location. The source also doesn’t indicate they’re both dead now, you’re just making shit up.
OK, I’ll take my lumps. You’re right, I missed that when I skimmed the article. I was wrong.
That said, this is still a situation in which Hamas injured two civilians, abducted them, forcibly dragged one of them into a hospital that is now clearly known to have been at least partially a Hamas front, and is still holding them against their will (assuming they are still alive). The fact that they aren’t known to have committed the final atrocity - yet - to these two hostages does not magically make them the good guys in this.
Hamas are not the good guys. That doesn’t make the hospital the bad guys, and it doesn’t make everyone in Gaza complicit. Your inability to separate different actors in this scenario is limiting your perspective and objectivity.
Nobody’s calling Hamas the good guys. We’re pushing back on the narrative that the hospital itself is somehow involved and thus exempt from the normal protections in war.
Hospitals will treat anyone that comes in by default, and in the case of a Gazan hospital, what choice would they even have anyway? You can’t call the authorities if Hamas are the (de facto) authorities. You treat the hostage and get them to GTFO as fast as possible before you get bombed.
You are falling for the IDF narrative that says all Palestinians are Hamas, as if they have any kind of choice in the matter.
I some mob enforcer shot some guy “to teach him a lesson” and then brough him to a Hospital so that he wouldn’t die, would that make the Hospital a “Mob HQ” and justify a military attack on it that killed innocents being treated and working there?!
There is no such thing as Guilt By Association except in the “they’re all the same” of racist-logic, so one wonders how exactly anybody who is not a racist could ever go from “IDF video of Hamas bringing hostages for treatment in a Hospital” to “This justifies the IDF’s military attack on that hospital and associated civilian deaths”.
Oh, for fuck’s sake… Stop reading stuff into my comments that isn’t there. I didn’t justify Israel’s attack on the hospital. I said it’s known that the hospital is at least partially a front for Hamas, which should surprise zero people, since Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses civilian Palestinians as human shields.
The whole situation is fucked up because there are no right answers when an organization is willing to do that. It’s an effective - if psychotic - tactic, since only other psychotics would attack a building that is, yes, also a functional hospital.
And the accusation of racism - for pointing out that nothing Hamas does with hostages other than letting them go (or better yet, never injuring and taking them hostage in the first place) is good, and that we don’t know if the hostages in the video are even still alive, let alone actually treated there - is ridiculous.
Hamas is not Palestine, and Palestine is not Hamas. Palestinians are victimized by Hamas as much, if not more, than the Israeli civilians they murdered, because Palestinians have lived under their brutal rules for decades, and speaking out has long been a great way to get murdered along with one’s entire family.
I’m not taking Israel’s side, here. Yes, they were attacked first, and horrifically. But their response has also been horrific, and their oppression of Gaza has given Hamas oxygen it wouldn’t otherwise have had in the first place.
There are no easy answers now. Anyone who tells you they know who the good guys and bad guys are and how to solve this is a lying scumbag. And it doesn’t help when we don’t look honestly at Hamas and recognize its terrorist tactics for what they are.
Only it’s not “known that the hospital is at least partially a front for Hamas” and as you yourself ended up admitting, that can’t be concluded tfrom this video.
The only source for that idea that the hospital is a front for Hamas comes from the IDF in the form of unverified self-serving statements and videos just like this, which cannot be trusted unless corroborated by an independent source and sometimes end up being publicly shown as complete fabrications (such as the “weapons in the hospital” video were it ended up being spotted by none other than CNN that the weapons had been put there by the IDF as some weren’t there in a video the IDF made before allowing the external Press in for filming).
You can’t really use uncorroborated pieces of “information” from those who kill people to justify their killings, and in this war this applies just as much to the IDF as it does to Hamas.
You might want to ask yourself why you implictly trust uncorroborated self-serving “information” coming from one set of people killing innocents - believing in both would be naivety, believing a very specific one is something else altogether, especially when the one side you implicitly choose to believe are the guys openly bombing UN schools and with a 10x bigger body count: it takes quite an internal emotional link to a very specific group of people to keep on trusting them implicitly after they’ve killed over 10k civilians and bombed several UN schools.
By this point anybody who is not driven by an irrational love for one of those groups neither trusts the IDF nor Hamas.
POWs are SOLDIERS. Jesus fucking Christ, how the hell do you sleep at night? These hostages? They’re civilians. They’re you. They’re me. They’re just people, and Hamas stole them out of their country and is forcing them to stay with them.
Defending that is sick.
Israel is not the good guys here, either. The oppression they’ve inflicted on Gaza is terrible. But that can be true at the same time as it’s true that abducting civilians - after murdering a whole bunch of them - is also terrible.
You do know that means half of them aren’t, right?
Jesus Christ, stop with the apologetics for kidnapping and murdering civilians! You can criticize Israel’s response without trying to make what Hamas did - and is still doing - acceptable.
No one has been making that claim. So the only person who could lay it to rest is you. Since you’re the one claiming that. Everyone knows Hamas has been using civilian shields. We’re just upset about Israel committing genocide and using that as an excuse.
Isn’t it weird how nobody ever says that Hamas is committing genocide when they don’t give a fuck about where their rockets explode in Gaza, when they’re murdering Palestinians who are trying to evacuate, when they’re using Palestinian civilians as human shields, when they’re firing rockets from civilian Palestinian infrastructure, deliberately making it a military target?
Does it just not count when Hamas murders Palestinians, or how does that work?
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Criticizing Israeli actions is not implicit approval of Hamas actions.
The challenge here is that Hamas are generally considered to be the bad guys. You expect the bad guys to do evil shit.
Israel is supposed to be the good guys in this scenario. Being the good guys means you are not expected to do evil shit, and are supposed to do the right thing even if it is harder. Except right now they are doing orders more magnitude evil shit than the bad guys. I don’t think it is unfair to call them out on that.
They’re an Appartheid state (with explicit legislation that creates special citizenship classes by religion, with the Jewish Iraeli Citizenship having more rights than the Arab Israeli Citizenship) governed by an extreme rightwing government displaying most of the traits of Fascism - Militarism, Ultra-nationalism, reckless use if violence, even rabid racism against an etnic group they describe as “animals” - and the worst kind of Fascism at that, the could calculating hate-filled Germanic shit, not the “mild” version of places like Italy.
If Israel were ever the good guys (maybe at some point after the architects of Nakba left power and before they murdered Yitzhak Rabin) they haven’t been it for a long time.
Buy yeah, if you unskeptically consume the propaganda about Israel from the last couple of decades that portrays them as a western-like white people with humanitarian values, it’s natural you think it’s a country of “good guys”.
Genocide is a focused/targeted slaying of specific groups. Hamas is murderous careless and wanton. It’s not genocide. It’s not good. But it’s not genocide. Israel however, is largely targeting and slaughtering large portions of innocent Palestinians who’ve done nothing to them. Simply because Israel wants the land and wants to clear the people. Who’ve lived there off of it. And are simply using the terrorist attack as an excuse That’s genocide.
I mean everyone hates Mondays. Let’s be real here. But Monday isn’t a terrorist neither is Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Sunday or Saturday.
I get it. I’m the Pope. It ain’t easy. But you should know kiddo. Two wrongs don’t make a right. My buddy J.C. even says so. And I was unaware one could not be Zionist in the US. Solid logic there.
What hamas did was horrible. What Israel has done since makes that pale in comparison. Well that’s not really fair. What Israel did before still made it pale in comparison. If you don’t like people calling you a Zionist stop carying their water. There are no good guys involved in this conflict. Unfortunately just collateral of innocent citizens. Both Israeli and mostly Palestinian. Israel however, is the one with the power to change all this.
You can call me whatever. It literally means nothing to me lol.
Civilian deaths fucking suck but when the group you’re fighting uses them as shields, the numbers are gonna be high.
Edit: just looked up the term
a political movement that was originally begun in order to establish an independent state for Jewish people, and now supports the development and protection of the state of Israel
It’s great and all how you can never actually address what was said. Civilian deaths could be much less while still addressing the Hamas problem. But I’m glad that you have accepted the definition as a genocidal ethno nationalist. That’s what zionists are these days bubbala. And with how hard you are defending their genocidal extermination. Honestly I got to say it’s very believable on you. So you should really do yourself a mitzvah and read up on things a little better.
I literally posted the definition that I’m identifying with but I guess you’re welcome to read into it. It won’t be representative of reality but I can’t stop you.
Your comments are a little hard to read though so I’m tiring of this particular thread.
Words and their meanings change over time. Composition of groups change over time as well. I have no problem with Israelis having a place in the Middle East. What I have a problem with is the far right Israeli government committing genocide. You don’t have a problem with that and I understand that. But you saying that you choose to identify with the old definition. Doesn’t mean much. The Nazis tried to claim they were socialist. The Chinese in the North Koreans tried to claim that they’re democratic. No one believes that. Everyone understands what they are and that they’re just saying that. Because what you say doesn’t dictate who you are. What you do, dictates who you are. And you are defending one of the most bloodthirsty genocidal groups involved in this conflict. And I will say again fuck hamas. They are murderous deceptive and outright horrible people. But the Israeli government bears a lot of blame for bringing them to this point. Again, that does not justify Hamas or defend Hamas. It just says fuck the right wing likud government of Israel harder. For manipulating people to bring about this genocide.
And yeah I get that you don’t want to continue this conversation. You have no response to any of this. Your only goal is to defend Israel. And it doesn’t matter to you how bad you look because of it. You have nothing to say to change that fact. So why continue to try right?
How many Gaza civilians does Israel get to kill in retaliation?
100? 1000? 2000? 5000? 10,000? We’re still not at the actual number that have been killed just since Oct 7th, by the way. If killing 1200 Israelis is bad why is killing 15,000 Palestinians just shit that happens that everyone should just get over?
Trying to break the walls of their open air prison thats killing everyone inside.
Hamas murdered 1,200 civilians in Israel.
If you think that’s just fine in order to reach some abstract goal, you really have no leg to stand on complaining about the IDF killing civilians inside Gaza.
Its abstract to you, because youre not gonna let the plight of gazans be a real thing that matters to you. But its very real, well before this recent assault. A humanitarian crisis for hundreds of thousands of people short on food, water, and shelter due to Israeli military oppression
Hamas is not fighting for the “plight of Gazans” - they’re on record saying that the Palestinians are not their responsibility.
That’s probably why they don’t give a fuck if their rockets detonate and explode in Gaza, killing hundreds of Palestinians. That’s probably why they launch rockets from hospitals and schools. That’s probably why they hide weapons production facilities next to places of worship. That’s probably why they shoot Palestinians who are trying to evacuate. That’s probably why they abduct, imprison, torture and murder Palestinians who they perceive to be enemies. That’s probably why they close down, shutter and burn down Palestinian coffee shops, hotels, shops, water parks, and entertainment venues out of “religious concerns.”
Really, you’re assuming that Hamas is fighting for the Palestinians, but all evidence points to the exact opposite.
They’re a terrorist organization that murders people in cold blood, and they rule over Gaza in a reign of terror.
Neither was Lehi and now they’re officially part of the IDF, you know the terrorist group.
All of these things are the exact same thing Israel did in mandatory Palestine including using schools, hospitals and temples to store weapons and fighters. Their terror organizations murdered people for religious concerns and quite honestly still do.
And yet lehi and similar were the same but are now praised as freedom fighters.
You could say the same if the idf dude, they literally absorbed about a half dozen terrorist organizations into the idf as an official matter with commendations for attacks that killed civilians.
Why do you simp for one or the other, they’re both dogshit.
Sorry this is a barrage of accusations i dont have the time to try and dig through myself. I tried searching for them closing down coffee shops and found nothing, and them claiming no responsibility for palestinians and only found an israeli news article. Im dubious of the rest of the claims
Sorry this is a barrage of accusations i dont have the time to try and dig through myself.
I understand.
You’re trying to defend the massacres committed by Hamas as legitimate self-defense. You’re trying to defend Hamas as a bunch of freedom fighters protecting Palestinian civilians.
Of course you’re not going to look up evidence that Hamas has been making Palestinians’ lives miserable. That would run counter to that narrative.
The restrictions taken in place by Egypt and Israel were inevitable due to the presence of terrorist groups and the complete radicalization of the country. Many tend to blame Israel for the situation in Gaza but if the population there were peace-loving individuals, they definitely wouldn’t have so bad relationships with Egypt.
If they were peace loving they would have been killed off long ago like the hundreds of thousands of palestinians Israel drove out in the name of their religion.
What are you talking about? Israel is the only democratic country in the middle east. It is also the only country there which respects basic human rights. That’s true despite the fact current Netanyahu’s government is quite right-winged.
It was Hamas who decided to kill thousands of people just because they were jews. There are literally more than a million Arab people living in Israel.
If Palestinians were peace-loving individuals, the solution would have been found man decades ago.
Israel has done many mistakes but it definitely is not a terrorist state and I honestly don’t understand why people find excuses for Hamas.
Yes, Hamas was democratically elected 18 years ago. Since there, there were no elections. Name any democratic country which has elections once in 18 years or so. Furthermore, the fact they were democratically elected does not give them right to be terrorists. That’s like with communists: the fact they were elected once does not mean that everyone will want them forever. That’s not how democracy works mate.
Yes, my point is they’re not allowed in Gaza at all, weapons are technically illegal there and if Israel catches you with one you’re pretty likely to be shot or rapidly made multipart.
This is goddamn insane, imagine Russia trying to tell Ukraine theyre not allowed to have a military. Of course the genociders dont want their victims armed. Tell Israel theyre not allowed to have a military
Hamas did not try to coup Egypt or Jordan nor did they attempt a genocide in Israel. None of what you’re saying is true or even close to being true. There’s not even a way you could bend the truth to fit your narrative. You’re just lying.
Lmao dude this is just history. Hamas had the destruction of Israel in its charter. Their intent is caliphate. They’re religious extremists.
Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood and Hezbollah are all directly linked, and all funded by Iran. Why do you think Egypt and Jordan closed their borders after their respective problems?
This is not even a controversial take, much less a lie.
So then where is the evidence that Hamas attempted genocide in Israel or tried to coup Jordan and Egypt? If this is “just history” then it should be easy to find reliable sources right? Unless of course you were just lying.
When you’re about to share what you’re thankful for, I hope you think about those children being ripped apart limb for limb by a bombing campaign you support. Maybe then you’ll find what little humanity you have left buried beneath all the propaganda and lies.
I don’t think anyone is saying the war is just but rather relatable. If someone occupied my country, killed my family and took my family land I can’t say I’d react any different.
You’d sneak into their villages and go door to door killing thousands of innocent people in their homes? And do the same to young people at a music festival?
I think we can all relate to resistance, but this is something else.
A. Isrealis have been doing that for the better part of 50 years.
B. Sure, that’s abborant but yeah I think we can all picture being so frustrated and stuck you lash out at whatever is nearby.
It’s resistance, resistance has never been pretty not even when proto Israeli terrorists were bombing civilian targets in 1946 and hiding weapons and fighters in schools, hospitals and temples.
Yep I’m sure that’s what they’d say. You know how the Indians drove out the British and ended their apartheid state? By shooting people at electronic music festivals and committing necrophilia and by killing babies.
Same thing in South Africa actually in the 80s: they killed white babies, and shot white South Africans at electronic music festivals.
Oh and don’t forget Martin Luther King Jr. in the USA. He actually personally attended electronic music festivals and killed his fellow Americans, regularly. He had a huge kill-count. The tunnels he dug beneath hospitals are fucking legendary, all school children learn of his wanton murder during the civil rights movement, and we venerate him for it. Every chance he got, he called for the extermination of white people, and of Jews, and of Asian people too. That’s how he became a fucking hero. Never tried to unite people together, not even once. Americans are so fucking proud that he sewed division and hate, and killed people all the damn time. That’s why he has a street in every single major city in the USA and in other places too.
The protagonists in the Old Testament do exactly that more than once with less provocation, and millions of people still consider them the good guys. Israel’s PM in particular has specifically cited one of them as a model to emulate. Look up his comment about Amalek.
So yes, a lot of people would do that, and the people in charge of this massacre in particular would definitely do that given a chance. Or, you know, you can look at the fact that they basically are doing that right now, just with bombs rather than small arms.
You know you’re on the moral high ground of relatability when your evidence comes from the fucking Old Testament. Like when your morality comes from 4000+ years ago, wow, that’s some good shit right there. Hold my beer, I’m about to say that I read slavery is ok in the Old Testament. Watch as I drive down to Whole Foods with a net gun and get myself some laborers from the produce isles. It’s ok because they wear multiple kinds of cloth at the same time, and I saw one pick up a lobster so he can definitely be my chattel. There goes one holding hands with his partner, give me a minute while I righteously smite them in the name of my lord; pour out some salt for them!
Man, you suck at reading comprehension. I’m using the Old Testament as an example of what people believe, not a source of factual information. You understand those are different things, right?
Dude you suck at reading comprehension because that’s exactly what I addressed in my comment. If one’s belief system is actually based in or otherwise aligned with the Old Testament, their opinion is invalid and they are morally bankrupt.
The Old Testament is so fucking brutal and devoid of morality, that 2000 years ago people started Christianity just to get away from its brutality; that was literally the appeal of jesus. To say “god did a take back and the world doesn’t have to be so brutal”.
I’m not religious so no, and I made no mention of religion. Israel was forged by hard-line religious extremists as well but is technically a secular nation.
You should look into every revolution on earth, 98% of which will include religious extremists. Your point is idiotic, the American revolution had religious extremists lol.
You’re being tedious. You know what I meant and notably hamas is not the only dog in this fight buddy. The narrative is it’s hamas because they’re religious extremists and it tends to discount the fact that regardless of their intent or reasoning the effect is the save, armed defense of Gaza. Without hamas the place would have been annexed 30 years ago.
I’m not being tedious. You specifically said you’d join Hamas. That’s what Hamas is. If you want to say something differently, just say different words.
Without Hamas there would literally be a Palestinian state, and it would be a secular state, and I know this because this is the reason Hamas exists.
They seized power and canceled elections forever specifically because Palestinians were going to be their own secular state, and Israel would exist. They find that unacceptable. Just like the entire reason for the October attacks was Israel normalizing relations with Saudi Arabia.
These things are not secrets or opinions man. This is history.
You are, meaning by context is a thing. I did not specifically say I’d join hamas, hyperbole is absurd when there’s an objective record just above your comment.
Not at all, there’s good evidence that Israel was always writing against that namely the Israeli government paying hamas and letting them thrive so long as they took out targets beneficial to right wing Israelis.
No it’s not, they’re both terrible and need to be dismantled and reformed in a less shitty way. Simple as. I think it’s idiotic to “take a side” in the war as a multiple century religious holy war. What Israel is doing right now with people like you cheering it on is killing more then ten times as many people in “self defense” and then lying about what they find to justify murdering civilians. That’s objectively wrong.
shows u have no clue what ur talking about. Israel wasn’t forged by religion extremists, on contrary. I will never understand people like u who talk with such confidence about matters they have no clue about.
nice personal attack, maybe because facts are not at your side? fake news, half truths, and propoganda is all I get from u. good luck with that I’m out
To be fair, Al Jazeera is blatantly anti-Israel, so I wouldn’t trust their analysis without other corroborating sources. Regardless, the evidence the IDF presented for that particular video was far from conclusive, so it’s certainly possible that particular entrance wasn’t to the Hamas tunnel network.
I also don’t doubt that nurse video is fake, but the source of the video is far from definitive. Many parties in this conflict benefit from muddling the waters with fake videos.
As if being anti-Israel means that Al Jazeera throws journalistic integrity into the wind? If the facts are valid, they’re valid regardless of what the spin being put on them is.
Bias needs to be taken into account, but it does not invalidate good reporting on its own. It’s the same reason I don’t immediately believe all statements from the IDF. They are a party in the conflict and extremely biased. They are however a valuable source of information and their claims should be considered. I would also rank the credibility of the IDF over the credibility of Hamas.
The IDF, as I’ve shown, has zero journalistic integrity. If Hamas starts to spread verifiably fake videos to Western audiences, I’ll discredit them too.
You’re miles up shit creek and so all you see is shit. You’re stuck comparing a nice big long shit to a gloopy one. Paddle down a bit and maybe you’ll get some clear water for once.
Hamas bombed their own hospital and then said the IDF did it and everyone ate it up
Saying you blindly believe Hamas, a known terrorist organization that says that all Jews worldwide should be wiped out, is really taking the mask off. You should be ashamed of yourself. It’s fine to assume Israel lies, but to blindly trust Hamas is truly moronic. I hope you wake up to reality one day
Not a great example. All recent reporting was that the hospital you’re talking about was hit by a Hezbollah rocket, not Hamas. Not surprising that Hamas would assume, after concluding it wasn’t them, that it was the IDF, and it not be an outright lie.
Well the most obvious example is the strike on that hospital killing 500 that ended up being a failed PIJ rocket landing on the hospital parking lot killing 10-20 people.
I will believe the findings of a third party investigation which the UN has called for. The “evidence” provided by the IDF is not at all conclusive. As I said, you can’t pretend otherwise unless you trust the IDF.
Sure, just keep your blinders on and keep going. It’s not like other governments corroborated that or anything. A fact you chose to clearly ignore in the comment you replied to.
The US and Israel are the only one making strong claims about who is responsible. France and Canada statements were not conclusive and did not “verify” Israel’s supposed evidence like you said. I think I’d rather wait for a third party investigation before I conclude that Israel, the country who’s had killed over 5000 children in little over a month, is free from culpability in this one instance.
You don’t have to convince me. Giving and medical care, education, and food to a people under blockade is totally the equivalent of giving bombs and guns to a state that’s actively committing war crimes. If it turns out to be a PIJ rocket, the UN will be directly implicated in a war crime and therefore they aren’t trustworthy. It makes perfect sense if you don’t think about it.
I’m honestly confused because the original article just says Hamas was seen taking one of the hostages to the hospital. Isn’t that a good thing like hey they are trying to make sure these people don’t die?
Wouldn’t it be better to not murder, rape and kidnap a couple thousand innocent civilians in the first place?
I mean, come on man… You’re acting as if taking two kidnapped Israeli citizens to hospital overshadows how they got into that situation in the first place.
Yeah I completely agree with your sentiment your talking about both sides right? I’m saying that it makes no sense to bomb a hospital if your enemy is taking the hostages there the get healed unless you don’t care about the hostages and just want to kill Palestinians.
Yeah I agree with both sides. You realize Israel has been arresting children simply because someone said they picked up a rock or said free Palestine. Sounds like both sides are taking hostages.
One of the hostages is visibly wounded in his arm and is brought on a hospital bed, while the second is forcefully dragged into the hospital. “These findings prove that the Hamas terror organization used Shifa Hospital on the day of the massacre itself as terror infrastructure,” the IDF says.
TIL bringing a wounded civilian in for treatment makes the treating hospital "terror infrastructure".
Further images released by the IDF from the surveillance cameras at Shifa show Hamas terrorists inside the hospital, and outside the rooms of the hostages, as well as stolen IDF vehicles brought to the medical center.
Okay, let's say you're a cop and you have an injured prisoner but no car. You grab a vehicle off the street and bring the guy to the nearest hospital. You don't want your prisoner to escape, so you stand guard outside the room while he's getting treated, then take him into custody.
You see the problem here? In one viewpoint, it's a soldier responsibly getting treatment for a prisoner; in another viewpoint, the entire hospital complex had enemy soldiers in it at some time and therefore deserves to be razed to the ground.
And yet that still doesn’t make that hospital a Hamas HQ and hence the deaths due to the IDF attack on it justified…
If some mob guy shoot some person to teach him a lesson and then brough them to the hospital, that would not in any universe make the hospital a “Mob HQ” and justify a military attack on it killing civilians and medical personnel.
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
You’re going to just disagree with the IDF spokesman here?
If you take two prisoners and don't want to split up your forces, then you bring both of them to the hospital, get the injured one treated, and take both of them away.
In an evening press conference, IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the two wounded hostages were later taken by Hamas to hideouts, and that the Red Cross was unable to visit them. He says their locations are currently unknown.
If they’re releasing surveillance footage, expect more to come out. They have already announced that Noa Marciano was executed inside the hospital - most likely on camera.
Also note that they are sharing much more with the US and EU than they are making public. It will likely include surveillance footage tagged with facial recognition of every senior Hamas member who walked through the hospital.
Separately, a journalist from Italy who spoke to The Times of Israel on condition of anonymity recounted that in 2009, right after Israel’s Operation Cast Lead against Hamas, he visited Gaza’s hospitals looking to interview wounded members of Fatah — the rival Palestinian faction that Hamas violently ousted from the coastal enclave in 2007.
“Eventually, I realized that they were all at home — Fatah members were too afraid to stay in the hospital, even if they were wounded,” the journalist said.
“Shifa is a very large compound. I got lost inside it, and at some point I ended up on an underground floor, and I found myself in front of two armed Hamas men in military attire, who told me to get out.”
"Eventually, I realized that they were all at home — Fatah members were too afraid to stay in the hospital, even if they were wounded,” the journalist said.
What is the implication? They would have been killed by Hamas in the hospital?
Which doesn’t mean that hospitals are terrorist hot spots, just that they are not safe in a deadly gang war. Mobsters also don’t feel safe from rivals in a hospital room.
Does this mean the hospital was complicit in the abduction of Israeli hostages from October 7th? If this is true, my god some people have some questions to answer.
The people on the ground at the hospital did not take hostages. Hamas did, and uses the hospital as a base. No one involved in the running of the hospital gets a say in what Hamas does.
They are both the government and murderous terrorists, so whatever they wanna do, they’re gonna do
I can imagine that some of the complicity started with benign motives. You’re an NGO wanting to do good things for the people of Gaza? You learn and obey Hamas rules. But since you don’t want to admit that you are obeying Hamas rules - you get drawn into endorsing Hamas lies. Nonetheless, by not saying anything about the hostages for a month you are complicate in their capture and your organization is as well.
Then there are those that doubt the veracity of Israeli and US Intelligence saying that the hospital was a control point. Of course it was, and those that watched Hamas walk into the door knew it.
If a terrorist is holding hostages near you and the terrorist says if you tell anyone about it they’ll kill you, or the hostages, then you are also being held hostage, you can just move around more than the other hostages.
Sure fear can play a role, but there was more than compliance to Hamas. They told the press, some of who knew better, that they never seen Hamas or hostages. They took an active role.
You know, the other day I was in the hospital and there was a visibly pregnant woman outside who was smoking. I went up to the front desk and demanded to know why the hospital was condoning that behavior. The person at the desk reacted in complete confusion. So I continued on, asking why the multinational conglomerate that owned the hospital was requiring pregnant mothers to smoke. As I was being escorted out by security, the smoking woman was gone, but they all knew who I was talking about.
Yes, let’s attack the ONLY humanitarian agency that tries to do some good so their shitty opinions of Israel’s behaviour towards Palestinian civilians, patients, journalists and aid workers isn’t so highlighted in the world press anymore.
Oh shut up with your insinuations. If a guy with a gun tells you to treat someone, you do it. As if Palestinians have gotten another choice by Israeli governance. You act as if these people were free before the attacks lol. As if they were living in the land of milk and honey, as if their opinions mattered…
Again people lose sight of the fact that regardless of hamas actions, that doesn’t justify the killing of thousands of kids and families that are taking shelter in the hospital.
If anything, the medical staff and families are also hostages and they shouldn’t be killed either.
People kept arguing about the tunnel and the hospital ignoring the genocidal killing of Palestinians.
Tunnels or Hamas using the biggest and maybe only hospital Doesn’t justify the bombing of the hospital while people still getting treated from other bombing…
I mean, I read through what you posted and it literally never says Israel bombed hospitals.
HRW just cites a Tweet by “WHO in occupied Palestine” that is very non-specific while sounding specific.
The relevant bits from the Tweet used as the primary source by HRW:
“We are horrified at the latest reports of attacks on and in the vicinity of Al-Shifa Hospital, Al-Rantisi Naser Pediatric Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital, and others in Gaza city and northern Gaza, killing many, including children.”
“Over the past 36 days, WHO has recorded at least 137 attacks on health care in Gaza, resulting in 521 deaths and 686 injuries, including 16 deaths and 38 injuries of health workers on duty.”
If I thought I knew better from my seat in a chair what was going on in Gaza than the humanitarian organizations on the ground there then I would simply log off and touch grass.
Clearly you can’t even read or are mentally broken. The link above doesn’t say the hospital itself was bombed. Go to sleep, it must be late in the morning, tankie
I mean, when you are calling people liars because they don’t agree with you, especially when your own sources don’t support what you say, I’m pretty sure that’s a sign you need to log off and touch grass.
Is it possible Israel has bombed hospitals in Gaza? Certainly.
I disagree that saying someone is ignorant or that I would STFU if I was that ignorant is a personal attack. I also do not see how that is somehow more objectionable than lying about bombed civilians.
I haven’t received notifications for any of those other warnings as far as I can tell, the links in the log won’t actually load for me. I also stand by them and encourage everyone to check out my forbidden opinions. It’s hilarious that one of them is literally a single sentence of me asking a mod for clarification.
Btw, why is lying about murdered civilians fine but calling someone ignorant is beyond the pale?
Not all mods bother replying to comments they remove, I choose to because I believe transparency is an important part of moderation.
As to the question, engaging in personal attacks violates rule 5 in the sidebar (which I wrote BTW):
“Rule 5: Keep it civil. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (perjorative, perjorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (perjorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!”
Ok, I understand that your stance is that ignorance is not a neutral statement of fact but a personal attack, and I do appreciate you replying unlike the last mod I asked that just deleted my comment without answering. Which I also had no idea about because I don’t monitor the mod log of every place I comment.
It’s just a really awful policy for the exact reason I’ve been underlining over and over: if polite lies about mass murder are fine and calling someone ignorant for saying heinous shit isn’t fine, you’re just creating an environment where impoliteness is worse than bigotry. And yeah I see the rules against that, doesn’t seem to be doing anything about the overt lie that hospitals haven’t been bombed.
“It’s the rules” is a terrible justification for leaving up lies about mass murdered civilians as long as they’re polite.
If the facts are on your side, I absolutely encourage you to refute incorrect information, just don’t attack the other user in the process.
“I’m sorry, you’re wrong. - Link.”
“Reality disagrees. - Link.”
That’s all cool.
Ad hominem attacks cross the line. When you start going after the other user, that’s a problem and we don’t want flamewar threads top to bottom. That’s why the rule exists.
If you don’t want flame wars then removing obvious flame bait–like lies about mass murdered civilians and hospitals not being bombed–would go a lot farther than deleting everyone that calls that shit what it is.
I’ve explained the mod position multiple times. It’s not up for debate. You’re now starting to shade over into a different form of disingenuous argument affectionately called “sealioning”.
If you want to run a community where it’s more offensive to say someone is ignorant than it is to lie about mass murdered civilians I’m not under the delusion that I can make you do anything else. Just don’t expect me to not say it’s a shitty policy or to ignore what it allows and what it doesn’t allow.
So the rule actually isn’t “don’t make personal attacks”, it’s “don’t tell the mods that their policies are bad.” Maybe you should add that to the sidebar.
I am very civilly pointing out that the idea hospitals haven’t been bombed is a disgusting piece of propaganda and someone who done even the bare minimum of reading non-IDF sources should know that. Personally I would feel more shame about lying about the deaths of civilians.
Hamas surrenders, releases hostages and it’s done. But Hamas is the one pushing this war and they’re using the suffering of their own people to push propaganda - and people like yourself support their efforts.
Put yourself in Hamas miltant shoe. Mostly now had lost family members, living since born in a prison, you cannot go to sea, or cross to Egypt or even other part of the country.
They’re going to die pointlessly regardless of what they do. While I disagree with what they’re doing. I can’t exactly fault them for feeling powerless and lashing out. When people have nothing to lose. They don’t care how much anyone else loses either. And the Israeli government has the largest part of the blame on this. They helped Hamas come to power and use them extensively to justify their genocide. They don’t want Hamas to stop.
Netanyahu’s own cabinet has literally said on video that Hamas is an asset to them. Those are the facts. Netanyahu and his ministers have also done a lot to help Hamas as well. Mind you, I’m not defending Hamas. Fuck hamas. Palestine is not Hamas however. Most the people living in Gaza never voted for Hamas. And don’t support Hamas. And would love to get rid of Hamas. But they don’t have the power to. The people that have the power to would rather come in and slaughter innocent citizens of Gaza under pretense of going after Hamas. Creating more Hamas and the process rather than actually getting rid of Hamas. These are the facts. Netanyahu’s government’s actions are indefensible.
When the so-called rescue response has killed multiple times more than the initial terror attack. It is a terror attack in its own right.
well if an ant bite kills your mom and you go and poison bomb the whole colony, then the surviving ants come bite and kill your dad. are you gonna just let the ants keep killing your family or are you gonna poison bomb the whole colony again
this is just an analogy (works for the nukes in japan too) at this point both sides are shitty and idek how to have a take about it anymore.
It is certainly better to kill Israeli soldiers than it is to not kill them. Peace has been tried for over 30 years, but Israel has refused. It’s about time Palestine started fighting back. Genociders do not listen to anything short of warfare and terrorism.
What genocide are you talking about? About the non-existent one against Palestine? How come they are under genocide when their population literally doubled over the last 70 years?
Can I ask you whether you support Hamas and their actions? Do you consider them terrorists?
Are you aware that Israel doesn’t need to literally kill every palestinian in order to succeed at genocide? Do you think the Holocaust wasn’t a genocide?
I don’t give a fuck about Hamas, Palestine should fight back against the genocidal state by any means necessary. Nothing Hamas has ever even been claimed to have done is worse than genocide, so criticizing them at all is a logical fallacy. If palestine thinks incorporating terrorism into their war effort is necessary, I’m not arrogant enough to claim I know better. Every repercussion of this war on both sides is the fault of Israel, just like was true of Nazi Germany.
I know that for genocide you don’t have to kill the whole population. Issue is that during the genocide, population goes down. During holocaust, 1/3 of the jews were killed and the population of jews was 30% smaller at the end of the genocide. This is not happening with Palestinians as their population literally doubled and there has never been a significant dip in their numbers. So no, Israel is not a genocidal state.
In the second paragraph you are finding excuses for Palestine for fighting genocide (why by the way doesn’t exist). Hamas is a terrorist organisation which does not care about Palestine at all. They are only capable of killing Jews, tying opposition to cars and dragging them around. They were also the ones who broke the ceasefire and made the population of Gaza so radical that no one wants to have anything with them. Even PLO rather stays away from Gaza. I am honestly shocked how can you support terrorism and blame Israel for everything. You also ignore the fact that Hamas is not Palestine.
So if Israel kills 2 million Palestinians, but elsewhere 3 million are born, that is still genocide. Also, source on their population going up? You mean like world wide or something? Certainly not in Gaza. No, Hamas did not violate a ceasefire. Laying seige to an open air prison for 20 years does not count as ceasing fire. Hamas attacked Israel in retaliation to them getting worse and worse.
Furthermore, Gaza is not Israel’s open air prison and it was Hamas who broke the ceasefire.
I honestly see no reason in this discussion when you keep inventing random facts and when you support terrorist organizations. This is truly unbelievable.
They haven’t killed them yet,but they very much intend to. If you’re not trolling, I highly suggest you do some research on this subject before speaking confidently on it. Basically everything you’ve said is incorrect. I can’t educate you to that degree in a couple comments. But if you are well meaning, and you can ditch your pro America/ pro imperialism bias, you will come to learn a lot about how the world works overall by doing a deep dive on this subject. But let me be very clear: Israel is the bad guy, and America is bad for supporting them. This is a fact. Genocide is always evil, no matter who is doing it.
Honestly it’s funny that you say I am wrong and pro-american but at the same time you are the one supporting terrorism and spreading complete bullshit. I don’t know who of us should educate themselves on the subject.
The land of Palestine is where it was when the borders of Israel were drawn in the 50s. Israel has expanded itself drastically since then, and most (all?) of that stolen land is Palestine.
Never heard of it before, but based on the summary, I assume he says some real wack job shit, alongside his factually correct points, such as America bringing 9/11 on itself. He’s right that when America targets civilians, they justify attacks like 9/11 in return.
“Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:
Because you attacked us and continue to attack us”. Yep, he is 100% correct.
He also blames interest on loans as core to America’s failings, which is honestly way more than I expected from him. Though, I figured out that capitalism is evil at like 25, while living inside capitalist propaganda, so it’s probably not that difficult to figure out. Not that interest is literally capitalism, but it’s a decent stand in for it that fits within his wack job religious message.
It’s an interesting comparison between 9/11 and the recent Hamas attack though. It’s not good that 9/11 happened, it just was wildly obvious that it eventually would. Meanwhile the exact opposite is true of the Hamas attack. It’s good to kill people genociding you, but I’m surprised it actually happened.
What? No. Osama also believes the sky is blue, does that make us all lunatics? If people say true things, it is intellectually dishonest to disagree with them. That is how brazenly obvious it is that capitalism is evil.
Sure, it’d pretty much have to be, right? Anything that isnt currently causing all of the world’s problems has a very low bar to clear, and if you think communism is the answer, Im not gonna disagree with you. What we replace capitalism with is much less important than the fact that we get rid of capitalism in the first place.
This would be more believable if the IDF, which has been searching the complex for days, had found anything of the sort. A major command and control base, supposedly accessible from places random employees can stumble upon, isn’t something you need days of intensive searching to reveal.
They blasted a hole through a garage floor to find a tunnel, that’s not a terror command center and not something a member of the hospital would stumble upon. If this was a big important storage and command site that random doctors would wander into, the troops there would have found it already by just opening doors.
These situations can still be reconciled. Perhaps this particular doctor had a habit of blasting holes in floors and had to be told not to do that under threat of being shot.
There’s a bunch of pro Palestinian accounts that all only post comments about the war and joined about the same time (not at Reddit API influx). The mods should ban clear propaganda accounts
I think mods should ban any account that argues points without reputable sources to back their claims. The amount of “they bombed hospitals” without evidence is pretty staggering.
You think little children dying as their blood drains away with their limbs blown away, or their life slowly fadding as their bodies are crushed by the rubble of what moments ago was their home or being burn through till their internal organs fail in complete total panic by a piece of burning white phosporous whose fire they cannot stopped, from a round that hit their schoolyard, is any better?!
Is them being arabic-speaking muslims that makes their horrible deaths acceptable in your eyes, even while the deaths of jewish hebrew speaking children are not?!
It’s really hard to see any other reason than the most disgustingly extreme psychopatic racism for somebody to justify the horrible murder of children using the murder of other children by people whose only relation is being from the same ethnic group.
You think little children dying as their blood drains away with their limbs blown away, or their life slowly fadding as their bodies are crushed by the rubble of what moments ago was their home or being burn through till their internal organs fail in complete total panic by a piece of burning white phosporous whose fire they cannot stopped, from a round that hit their schoolyard, is any better?!
Literally everyone thinks some kinds of deaths are better than others. Dying slowly and painfully due to someone’s maliciousness is generally considered among the worst.
You’re weird for trying to make this some sort of gotcha.
Literally only people very high in the sociopath end of the spectrum would think one gruesome kind of child murder justifies a different kind of gruesome child murder, to the point of using one to justify the other in an argument genuinelly believing other human beings will be swayed by that.
People in the normal human range within the sociopathy spectrum neither think “an eye for an eye” applies to the murdering of children - no matter the method used - nor think other people can be swayed to accept child murder by pointing out that child murders were commited by people only related to the former children by etnicity.
In fact normal people don’t even think one kind of child murder justifies the other kind of child murder even when the latter children have direct family relations to the murderers of the former.
You need to be quite the sociopath to merelly think somebody murdering children justifies killing their kids, and you need to be extremelly sociopathic to think somebody murdering children justifies killing kids of the same etnic group.
People whose psychological makeup is such that they trully believe child murder justifies child murder and, worse, that others think the same, need professional help, deseperatelly so.
Literally only people very high in the sociopath end of the spectrum would think one gruesome kind of child murder justifies a different kind of gruesome child murder,
A) this is quite incorrect
But more importantly
B) I never said anything justified anything
Perhaps engage with just a shred of intellectual honesty and good faith
And I’m pretty sure you don’t and also that it’s irrelevant given your options are hyperbole with one being almost benign and the other literally Fargo when those aren’t the options here nor are they what is happening in Gaza.
Again actual gaslighting with misogyny and the assumption I’m female. Love it. Point blank your argument is so shitty you can’t defend it, not won’t but literally can’t.
Good luck with the douchebag routine, maybe a read a book instead of trying and failing to stroke your ego.
Yes yes, my hand messes up because it’s going paralyzed, we went over this but at least this time your mocking something real and not inexpert opinion from an asshole.
Yeah being murdered with a hoe is definitely worse.
I actually brought this up with my elderly father at Thanksgiving lol. He thought it was hilarious that you went so berserk over it, and we came up with some of my comments together.
It was actually a really sweet little moment. I’m thankful for you.
So you’re just as much of a sad shitty person in real life, neat brag. No one has gone berserk I’m persistent, someone is running away and it certainly isn’t me.
I imagine none of it actually happened so sure, whatever you need bud.
Back to your shitty argument so if the the person bombed is beheaded by explosive is that than equal to or greater than this theoretical hoe beheading.
It’s weird to me that you value one human life over another. How many lives is a hoe beheading worth? Two, three? Ten? Because we’re at about 10x as many civilians casualties in Gaza. How many until Israel breaks even?
Similarly death by building, or explosive dismemberment notoriously not fast or painless.
That’s quite literally what you’re doing right now, we’re actively discussing it. I’m bad at math but goddamn homie you’d figure the guy on the high horse could figure out 1+1=2.
You want me to quote to you something that is two comments above this one? Egomaniacal and lazy, neat combo no wonder research is so difficult for you.
Again those weren’t the options bud, the comment you responded to specifically says slow and painful. You gloss over that fact because… You’re a bigot.
You think little children dying as their blood drains away with their limbs blown away, or their life slowly fadding as their bodies are crushed by the rubble of what moments ago was their home or being burn through till their internal organs fail in complete total panic by a piece of burning white phosporous whose fire they cannot stopped, from a round that hit their schoolyard, is any better?!
That’s because it a dumb bit of hyperbole from a loon that doesn’t understand how human bodies function.
Edit: but even still, us disagreeing on which is a worse death is not at all a discussion about the value of the life being taken. Someone dies in both instances - the value of human life is not being discussed at all.
That you think it is being discussed, and went so insane about it, is embarrassing. As I said before.
Ah another “crazy” person, everyone you deal with seems to be crazy huh? It’s not that maybe you’re a bigot. It’s not hyperbole, those things have objectively happened in Gaza during the conflict, Israel doesn’t deny it why do you.
It absolutely is, you were given two horrific examples of death and chose one over the other that’s giving them values.
relative worth, utility, or importance.
Someone dies in both instances - the value of human life is not being discussed at all.
It absolutely is being discussed, you just don’t see it because to do so would mean accepting that gazans are people not terrorists.
Again, bigoted insults, I do enjoy how easy you’re making proving your bigotry. What’s next another joke about my disability?
There are plenty of good ways to die. My daughter’s grandpa on her mom’s side got to choose how to pass and it was beautiful, surrounded by loved ones.
It would be great if we all got to make a choice and have it be easy.
Sounds like we agree on something, bigots do tend to be very petty people. I imagine so, bud but that’s not a metric of who will speak last. There’s no timelimit on response bud.
You’re a bigot at least be an honest bigot. An ashamed Nazi is still a Nazi after all.
Yes yes, because things I can show objectively are in my head. You want to try that again but be logical and make sense? No no, what you did was assume that being crushed by a building is painless and not terror inducing because you don’t value Palestinian life given your comments thus far.
You were given a situation. Ie. Crushed slowly under a building or beheaded by hoe and decided one is more valuable than the other. Words matter, context matters, actions matter and all of yours point to a bigoted outlook which is why you seem to equate Palestinians as terrorists, not people.
That’s not an explanation bud that’s a very obvious very pathetic dodge. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say you won’t explain it because it’s almost certainly very bigoted.
Then you’d be committing an ethical violation in calling me insane without physical observation. Guaranteed you are not a medical professional, I’m willing to bet you’re an actual factual child.
That’s your opinion Bud it’s also shitty deflection but do go on, the more you insist I’m crazy and refuse to stand by your argument the weaker you argument becomes.
It really hasn’t, it’s generic un geolocated video yet again and Israel is known to fake video. At the same time it’s not at all proof of their nonsense claims.
“…they also had a Starbucks. It sucked,” the doctor added before grabbing his no-foam, no-whip, double soy latte with two pumps of vanilla and rushing out the door.
Hah apparently the spin is they were taken to the hospital for humanitarian reasons. After all the rape and murder the kidnappers decided to take their hostages to the hospital for treatment clearly under duress. Yep such nice guys. Definitely what they’d do.
It’s totally unfair, you know. Western audiences have been long conditioned to treat it as a sign of villainy when a dictatorial regime builds secret tunnels under innocuous civilian facilities to hide their terrorist warmongering and torture operations! Government propanganda sources like “James Bond” and “G.I. Joe” have conditioned Western audiences to believe that only the bad guys do that!
(Good guys build their secret underground facilities in places of astonishing natural beauty far from civilians who might be harmed by unexpected explosions.)
timesofisrael.com
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