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OccamsTeapot

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OccamsTeapot ,

Blaming it on the Jews never gets old.

Wow so you think black people are antisemitic? Why are you so racist?

Do you see how totally fucking stupid that would be as a response to you?

OccamsTeapot ,

So every time a black person expresses an opinion you choose to silence them? I can’t believe the hate I’m facing right now

OccamsTeapot ,

You’re doing it right now. You’re only arguing with me because I’m black. The hate is on display for everybody to see

OccamsTeapot ,

Yeah, and you’re arguing with me for a reason. The fact I’m black has nothing to do with it. It was very disingenuous of me to pretend that your position had anything whatsoever to do with that. I know nothing about you so just calling you racist with no evidence is ridiculous and unhelpful

OccamsTeapot ,

Lol, you don’t?

OccamsTeapot ,

Democrats believe aid to Israel should have strings attached to it and that we should be using everything in our power to manifest an immediate ceasefire in Gaza. That’s not a controversial position within the Democratic Party. It’s only a controversial position with elites in Capitol Hill. Why? Because so much of this right-wing money is being funneled into threatening and bribing politicians to take positions that aren’t popular.

Fuck AIPAC and fuck every spineless politician that toes the line on this issue. If you vote against your conscience you are voting against your constituents and the people who put you into power

OccamsTeapot ,

As always

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/04842a77-84fa-49f5-99d1-9db148338c02.webp

OccamsTeapot ,

The second strike killed 17 children and two women from an extended family.

Hmm now was the perpetrator blind or just evil? Because those are literally the only two options

OccamsTeapot ,

Imagine this kid growing up knowing that this is the story of her life. A victim of Israel since she was in the fucking womb. This is how you create hate for generations to come.

Israel has yet to provide evidence of Unrwa staff terrorist links, Colonna report says (www.theguardian.com)

Israel has yet to provide supporting evidence of its claims that employees of the UN relief agency Unrwa are members of terrorist organisations, an independent review led by the former French foreign minister Catherine Colonna has said....

OccamsTeapot ,

Why not both?

OccamsTeapot ,

Multiple State Department officials who have worked on Israeli relations said that Blinken’s inaction has undermined Biden’s public criticism, sending a message to the Israelis that the administration was not willing to take serious steps.

Public criticism, private support. The administration is complicit, and this legacy of aiding genocide will long outlast any positive action Biden has taken thus far

OccamsTeapot ,

I said the legacy of this will long outlast any positive action Biden has taken. Yeah people will probably vote on domestic issues (although if even a few percent don’t want to vote for someone aiding a genocide it is getting pretty tight for Biden), but this recent inflation or whatever will be a distant memory in a few years, while the genocide will not. The court case alone will take years to finish up.

Also under the genocide convention, it is also a crime to be complicit in genocide. So what happens if (ie probably when) the court rules in favour of South Africa? Biden is in the shit. Then he has to answer for HIS actions, as the primary backer of Israel. Not a good look.

I’m not saying “this is going to cost Biden the election,” which it seems you were responding to (even though maybe it will). I am saying “people will remember Biden as the guy who gave the bombs that they dropped on the innocent children and not that guy who had decent economic policy.”

If I was president this would bother me but maybe Biden doesn’t care ¯_(ツ)_/¯

OccamsTeapot ,

If only they could have used their vote to express this sentiment in some way

OccamsTeapot ,

“We completely believe in the two-state solution and a state for the Palestinian people. We believe the best and the most sustainable way to do that is through direct negotiations between the parties,” the White House national security spokesperson, John Kirby, told reporters on board Air Force One on Thursday.

I like how the US is holding this up so they can desperately try to convince Bibi of something he’s already refused to accept, after having spent 6 MONTHS failing to get them to stop killing children.

OccamsTeapot ,

This is such a sensible idea we can almost guarantee that it will not happen. Not even invade, just send a “security force” to prevent violence in both directions. Then he could even frame it as “protecting Israel” as well as protecting Gaza.

Of course the problem is that Israel has already fucked up Gaza beyond recognition and rebuilding will take time and money

Israeli army broadcasts intimidating sounds to lure, kill, and forcibly displace civilians in the Nuseirat camp (euromedmonitor.org)

Testimonies from camp residents, which were provided to the Euro-Med Monitor team, confirm that the sound of women screaming and babies crying was heard late at night on both Sunday and Monday. When some of the residents went out to investigate and tried to help, they were shot at by Israeli quadcopter drones. The sounds they...

OccamsTeapot ,

And don’t blindly refuse to believe anything you read on the internet

OccamsTeapot ,

Given the reports of “kill zones” used by the IDF it doesn’t seem so unrealistic.

You’re right of course, that you shouldn’t blindly believe this type of stuff. If the IDF hadn’t killed so many journalists and Israel banned outlets it doesn’t like we might have some independent verification of this. But we can’t get it. Honestly while you obviously shouldn’t 100% believe it this fact does make me more likely to believe, because they obviously have something to hide.

I think Israel is intentionally creating this doubt so their PR, hasbara spewers and supporters can dismiss any crime with faux-superiority and “well it’s unverified.”

Imagine hearing the testimony of a victim of the attack on October 7th and just being like, naah, just a report, why should I believe this? Well because you know exactly the sort of stuff that happened that day and this person was literally there you fucking idiot. The question is why disbelieve it?

Likewise, the IDF has done so much disgusting shit and lied so much through the conflict, why should I disbelieve this? I’m cautiously accepting unless further evidence emerges.

OccamsTeapot ,

To be fair to Cartman, he’s been shown to have the capacity to grow into a decent person under the right circumstances.

Such as? The only times I can think of was when Cesar Milan “trained” him and he was ultimately only behaving to continue to manipulate his mum in future, and when they convinced him he was dead, where it was like 90% him responding to the lack of attention.

The covid one when they’re adults maybe? Can’t remember if he was lying/had an ulterior motive by the end of the episode

OccamsTeapot ,

He needs a health bar: Oscar, devourer of treats

OccamsTeapot ,

Terrorists, both the settlers and the IDF.

OccamsTeapot ,

Because this part is more shocking? I think if the last 6 months has taught us anything it’s possible to retaliate to something so extremely that everybody ends up thinking you’re the asshole.

To spell it out: this was a very extreme reaction to the problem, mainly harming innocent people which is playing out against the backdrop of what seems to be a genocide.

OccamsTeapot ,

If they just seemed like the likely culprits I would certainly not get together 1,000 of my unhinged friends and storm the town, burning cars and homes, stealing 70 sheep and blocking ambulances. Because I am not evil or stupid. Shockingly, they did not get the kid back.

Honestly, I would look for more evidence or more likely, tell what I know to the police. This is how you deal with these problems in civilised countries. Where I am from doing what these people did would get you arrested.

If you think punishing innocent people for this IMAGINED crime (since they do not know and apparently didn’t find the kid) is acceptable you seriously need help. What they did is an unjustified crime, and blocking ambulances from reaching the injured would be the most disgusting thing I’d heard in a long time of the IDF hadn’t raised that bar way too high already.

OccamsTeapot , (edited )

In fact, Hamas still has kidnapped Israelis. And somehow, this according to you is acceptable because you’ve only mentioned how disgusting it is for Israelis to block ambulances - nothing about holding innocent people as hostages.

Sorry but this is pathetic. Can you find anywhere where I actually said that this is acceptable? NO! Because I don’t think it is and would never say so. Feel free to look if you want to waste your time. So why would you make this suggestion? I think I can answer this too:

Blocking ambulances is wrong and disgusting yes

You bookended this with comments about innocent hostages held by Hamas because you think that no matter what Israel did, Hamas are still the bad guys. So rather than just criticising Israel - which you did do, to be fair - you have to put in all of this “Hamas bad” hasbara as well even though we can all read the story of what happened here. You don’t want to just criticize the IDF and settlers even though they are obviously in the wrong here.

The facts in this case are that a group of violent settlers stormed a town full of innocent people on the basis of undoubtedly flimsy evidence to dish out mob justice for a possibly even imagined crime. I don’t know why anyone would have an issue with just calling it out for the horrendous shit it is and condemning the IDF for letting it happen and blocking the fucking ambulances. Where are your morals?

Also, fyi, Israel has plenty of hostages (aka people held in “administrative detention” without charge). Does the fact you didn’t mention this mean that you support it? Or is this all of a sudden a very dishonest way to argue?

13,000 Palestinians reportedly missing in the Gaza Strip (euromedmonitor.org)

Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor estimates that over 13,000 Palestinians are either missing under debris, buried in indiscriminate mass graves, or forcibly disappeared in Israeli prisons and detention facilities, where some have even been killed. The circumstances surrounding the deaths of these prisoners and detainees have not yet...

OccamsTeapot ,

It’s going to be really fucking horrible watching the reality of this gradually come into view after there is finally a lasting cease fire. Some people will act shocked and pretend they didn’t know but anyone paying attention knows it’s there.

Bodies under the rubble, all of the people who died because the health system has been destroyed, the full reality of the looming famine, and all of the people the IDF killed and buried with bulldozers being discovered.

In Cambodia at the killing fields the bodies are barely below the surface in some of the mass graves, some guy’s trousers and thigh bone were sticking up through the dirt. Can’t get that image out of my head while reading this.

OccamsTeapot ,

Who is innocent in Israel Gaza? Who is actively fighting their government?

This is how you sound. For one, loads of people are fighting the government in Israel. But much worse, this is exactly the same reasoning used to justify the very thing you’re (rightfully) angry about

OccamsTeapot ,

And who? At best you have people protesting because not all hostages were freed, Israelis aren’t doing shit to stop Israeli crimes against humanity.

True, though before October 7th there were many people protesting Bibi. And while there are not protests for this purpose some Israelis are criticising the crimes against humanity. Not enough, yes, but still.

Last I checked Palestine didn’t invade a people’s land, displace them, and run a racist apartheid state for decades, before going full on genocide.

Israel is the aggressor state.

No shit bro. Just saying this narrative of “there are no innocents” is disgusting and exactly how the worst Israelis and Zionists think of Palestinians. It’s up to you if you want to be that hateful, I’m just saying, maybe take a look in the mirror before you continue

OccamsTeapot ,

Regardless, the defining characteristic of Apartheid is rule over the uncontenting majority by the minority.

Source for the majority/minority claim?

That is the harm of apartheid and that the thing that makes it a crime against humanity as opposed to regular old discrimination.

But “regular old discrimination” is still not a good thing, right?

OccamsTeapot ,

The current charter does not, though. In fact it vaguely advocates for a two state solution and says this:

Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, antisemitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage.

OccamsTeapot ,

The convention says:

the term “the crime of apartheid”, which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

Then it goes on to list some acts. Note that it says similar to not identical to. And it says over any other racial group. Absolutely nothing in there about majority/minority status.

So where did you see this? What makes you think this?

what would have been offensive to humanity about a political majority discriminating or disenfranchising itself? If they didn’t like the discrimination or disenfranchisment, they have the majority power to stop it.

Nobody is suggesting this.

What about if the majority discriminates against a minority , who doesn’t have the political power to stop it? That is offensive to humanity, so why would you exclude this from the definition of apartheid? That’s why they wrote the definition the way they did. South Africa isn’t the only way it can be.

OccamsTeapot ,

Then why is that explicitly not part of the definition?

“Similar” =/= identical. If all of the societal prejudice, injustice and disparity is still there but it’s 51% oppressing 49% instead of 49% oppressing 51% are you seriously saying that this is a totally different thing?

OccamsTeapot ,

Apartheid, in which the minority political bloc purported to rule over the unconsenting majority, based solely on race

We spoke about this. We looked at the definition. The minority/majority aspect is simply not in there. In fact it says it can be done to “any other racial group,” explicitly rejecting that framework. Why are you still saying the same thing? It is totally unjustified

OccamsTeapot , (edited )

I’m coming around to the idea that my understanding of the definition of apartheid is ill-founded. It doesn’t hurt at all but it is difficult to recognize.

Good for you dude! It is hard to recognize but it’s better than having the wrong idea about something so important

OccamsTeapot ,

Jesus christ dude. If you want to discuss you need to actually engage with the points made.

The definition says it can be done to “any other racial group” - why? How can this possibly be the wording if it had to be done to the majority group?

“As practiced in South Africa.”

Again, look at the actual wording of the whole sentence:

For the purpose of the present Convention, the term “the crime of apartheid”, which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa

It doesn’t have to be exactly the same. That’s why it says similar policies and not “identical to” or “the policies of…”

OccamsTeapot ,

Bud…yes, similar policies against any other racial group as practiced in South Africa.

So not necessarily a minority vs a majority. It literally doesn’t matter and appears nowhere in the definition.

When a court of law with competent jurisdiction somewhere find someone outside of South Africa guilty of apartheid, then you have a leg to stand

The implicit idea that we can’t just read the definition and apply it, so we must wait for a court to read it for us is laughable to me. Crimes exist regardless of whether they are convicted in practice.

OccamsTeapot ,

The Israeli prime minister’s office said Wednesday that of the 129 hostages from the October 7 attack currently held, 33 are dead.

So are you saying this article you posted contains misinformation? Or did you not read it?

OccamsTeapot ,

I think r/InternationalNews was mainly created as a place to discuss issues free from the rampant Zionism of r/WorldNews.

Happy to have people on Lemmy but I have to say, Lemmy as a whole seems way more anti-Israel than reddit right now. Although to be fair outside of r/WorldNews and a few other places, the general mood does seem to be shifting away from Israel pretty hard.

For me this is nice to see, because fuck Israel right to hell, but you’ll certainly see the same type of content here. I like that if people don’t like it they can make their own community or even an instance, and also that people are generally more free to disagree here (partially due to lax moderation I guess). You should have never been banned for that comment by the sound of it, absolutely stupid.

OccamsTeapot ,

This was the plan all along. Kill people, destroy their homes and infrastructure, then be all like “oh yeah we’d love to let you live there but it really needs a lot of work doing right now. But we’ll have it ready as soon as possible. Have you got somewhere to stay? I heard the Sinai is nice this time of year…”

Gaza: Israeli Strike Killing 106 Civilians an Apparent War Crime (www.hrw.org)

Between January and March 2024, Human Rights Watch spoke by phone with 16 people about the October 31 attack on the residential Engineers’ Building, and the death of their relatives and others. Human Rights Watch analyzed satellite imagery, 35 photographs, and 45 videos of the attack’s aftermath, as well as other relevant...

OccamsTeapot ,

Biden should stop supporting genocide

José Andrés Says Israel Targeted World Central Kitchen Workers 'Systematically' (www.rollingstone.com)

World Central Kitchen founder José Andrés said in an interview with Reuters on Wednesday that the seven World Central Kitchen workers who were killed by an Israeli strike while delivering aid Gaza earlier this week were targeted “systematically, car by car.”...

OccamsTeapot ,

So to you “stop giving weapons to Israel” = “genocide Israel”?

OccamsTeapot ,

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here

I have to say if you think an American wanting to end their military support for Israel must be in favour of a genocide against Israelis then yeah maybe you are.

Surely you must understand some people oppose genocide regardless of the target?

OccamsTeapot ,

On what grounds?

OccamsTeapot ,

So these are your grounds for saying that it isn’t a genocide?

  • Hamas uses human shields.
  • news reports from a war zone cannot be independently verified
  • the IDF is credible; Hamas is not
  • it is ok to kill civilians provided they were warned to move, because this is “all international law requires” before launching a strike.
  • the rate of new deaths is decreasing
  • 30,000 (mainly innocents, by any estimate) dead is actually quite low. So warnings work and targeting is precise
  • if there was a war with Iran it would be worse
  • Hamas bad

But how does this relate to the genocide convention? Are you saying there is no intent?

We can talk about specific points after but I want to understand how this all connects

OccamsTeapot ,

I understand the bullet points were brief (and a bit cheeky yeah) but I think it helps to focus if you want the conversation to be productive. Like we could argue for days about a single “full version” of one of the bullet points. I think I do understand what you’re saying, though.

But in international law, genocide has a specific definition (sure you have seen it but just to be clear):

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;

Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

When people say Israel is committing genocide they mean “they are doing this stuff.” Bearing in mind that any one is enough, the third act is clearly being done, for example. Israeli officials announced that they would purposefully be cutting off food and water to the civilians of Gaza. Having no food and water is clearly a condition that brings about destruction of life. The situation was created purposefully, announced beforehand and the consequences of this are being seen (yes people were talking about it sooner but, you know, we understand what happens if people don’t have food). Oh yeah and are you sick? Bad news, no hospitals.

There is no “unless a terrorist organisation is there” caveat to this, at least from my understanding. It is an act of genocide. We could do this for the first three or four pretty convincingly.

In law it’s called transferred intent. If you commit an armed bank robbery and a responding police officer shoots at you but hits and kills a family crossing the street, you are charged for their deaths since their deaths were within the range of probable consequences of committing armed robbery

I’m not sure this applies to genocide, but is “starving children to death” in the range of probable consequences of someone from the same place as you committing an atrocity? Is this an expected consequence? This is absurd, surely.

So from your explanations I’m still confused. Do you accept that Israel is committing acts of genocide, by this definition?

Then the only thing left is intent. But I feel like the amalek thing alone is pretty damning. Especially given IDF chanting it on the ground too. South Africa made a very convincing case for this overall.

Is your point that, “yes, these things would be genocide but some of the key foundations of the argument are false or misinformation”?

It seems very obvious to me that people who say Israel is commiting genocide or is an apartheid state are anti semitic or bad faith actors applying a double standard to Israel in order to sway opinion to their self interests, they are themselves anti semites, or they are basing their assessment on the aforementioned falsely colored factual circumstances, on lies and exaggeration, mixed with unfortunate truths.

I think by your estimation I would be using “falsely colored factual circumstances” etc? It seems a bit dangerous to assume bad faith when an international court has ruled that this is not an unreasonable accusation.

OccamsTeapot ,

Starving children to death?

Yes.

Hamas started a siege war with a vastly superior force and they didn’t pack enough food to feed their people. How is that not on them?

Because Israel is still responsible for it’s own actions and controls the border and flow of aid to Gaza? Is this not obvious? If you’re honestly making this argument I think we’re done here. You have apparently lost all humanity. I thought you could have been a reasonable person but apparently I was wrong.

OccamsTeapot ,

They (the person you are going back and forth with for example) 100% agree that Israel is taking all the actions

You would hope so but I’m not sure about that. He just blamed the famine on Hamas.

it’s high because the IDF allowed for and made specific rules that targeting civilians was ok en masse, as collateral damage, using Lavender

Yeah I read about this. Disgusting. Imagine putting that low a value on human life. Makes me sick to my stomach.

at some point they’re going to be forced to admit that the pain to the civilians is part of the point. And that their ACTUAL argument is that the civilians deserve it because of Hamas.

Exactly. But they’re all too cowardly to admit this.

They don’t seem to see that they’ve lost the moral high ground and they will never regain it again. I for one won’t forget or stop speaking out about this bullshit until the day I die. When the court convicts them of genocide people like JustZ here will either have to re-evaluate and maybe grow as a person or stick their fingers in their ears and claim the court is just so antisemitic and Israel has been innocent all along. I think it’s clear which is more likely

OccamsTeapot ,

I know dude I just wanted to give him a chance to not be a piece of shit. But here we are ¯_(ツ)_/¯

The amount of time they take to write out their long-winded comments excusing mass murder is fucking shocking

Yeah seriously. I was trying to be concise and keep on the point and every response was an essay. That’s because somewhere in there he sees the issues with what he’s about to say and so has to package it with all of this bullshit so he doesn’t read it back and see what a monster he has become

OccamsTeapot ,

“I have no doubt that there are other forces which would have used the drone,” adds the officer. “There is always tension between protecting our forces, which is the highest priority, and a situation in which you try to avoid unnecessary killing of civilians.”

This is a comment about a “near miss” (ie where they avoided killing many innocents alongside the one possibly innocent person they intended to kill).

Their forces are the “highest priority,” civilians lower down the list. This is how so many innocent people get killed. Because we can’t possibly expose a soldier to a minimal amount of risk.

For any lingering defenders of Israel reading: if the scale of killing isn’t because this is a genocide, what do you call it when tens of thousands of civilians are killed because the attacking army has a complete lack of respect for their lives and ultimately views them as disposable?

OccamsTeapot ,

Aww thanks!

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