Over 50,000 Palestinian children require treatment for acute malnutrition, says UN agency

Lionheadbud , 6 days ago

Criticising Israel is what got me kicked off Reddit

ipkpjersi , 6 days ago

It’s disgusting what Israel is doing and disgraceful that they are claiming racism if you happen to not approve of what they are doing. There, I said it.

SuddenDownpour , 6 days ago

Ironically, claiming that the people who call you out for committing war crimes are antisemites is EXTREMELY antisemitic.

Fedizen , 6 days ago

Every child the Israel government kills in Palestine they make a hundred enemies across the world. If there is justice in this world Netanyahu will be hanged for war crimes.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

Who’s “they”? Jews?

You’re the reason there has to be a Jewish state.

Fedizen , 6 days ago

They = “the Israeli government”; it should be readily apparent with any application of grammar.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

All of the government? Even the members of parliament that are in opposition to Netanyahu? Even those in the government working to send aid to Gaza?

The only thing that’s apparent is you’re filled with hatred. Just trying to determine the extent of your hate.

zbyte64 , 6 days ago

They obviously meant only you, duh.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

Yeah, probably. Fascists always want to use violence against all opposition to them.

zbyte64 , 6 days ago

How dare you describe what Israel is doing as fascist. Hamas opposes them and they are well within their right to blow the heads off any children that voted for them.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

What are you talking about? You need to chill, you’re not even making any sense now.

Aceticon , 7 days ago

The funny bit is the Zionists still pulling out the “Hamas” card in the face of this shit:

• Dude, next to this level of crap Hamas are veritable pussy-cats, friggin Mother Theresa’s, bloody My Little Ponies of the Middle East.

The only people in the contemporary era in the whole damn World that did anything worse than the purposefully starving of tens of thousand of children that the Zionists are doing were the friggin Nazis. NOBODY other than Nazis and Zionists comes anywhere close to this level of Evil.

Hell, even before this crap came to the attention of the rest of the World, the children-murder ratio between Zionists and Hamas was already over 1000-to-1.

Carrolade , 7 days ago

While I agree with your overall sentiment that Israeli actions outweigh HAMAS actions, this betrays a massive underestimation of global atrocities in the modern era. There have been a lot, most of which are not covered in a typical history class. Several go well into the millions.

…wikipedia.org/…/Genocides_in_history_(1946_to_19…

…wikipedia.org/…/Genocides_in_history_(21st_centu…

Aceticon , 7 days ago

I was thinking just in terms of murdering children including the specific targetting of children (which the IDF has done both with snippers and by bombing playgrounds).

In absolute terms of civilians, there were a number of worst atrocities, though in terms of percentage of the target population, not so much (possibly none at all but the Nazis, depending on what the the proportion between counted deaths and real deaths amongst the Palestinians is, since those whose corpses were not found and brought to Hospitals - i.e. those still buried in the rubble of the over 70% of Gaza building that were destroyed - were not counted, something which got worse after Israel destroyed almost all Palestinian Hospitals: the 40k deads are likely a significative underestimation and we might never know how significative that is because Israel does not allow independent UN observers to go check it).

What’s really “special” in the genociding done by the Zionists is the number of children being killed, the percentage of the target population killed, the targetting of Hospitals and medical personnel, the targetting of Humanitarian Personnel (worst ever, according to the UN) and the targetting of Journalists.

But, yeah, in absolute numbers of adults killed, things like Darfur and the Rwanda Genocide were worse.

Carrolade , 7 days ago

I don’t really see the point of singling out children. Murder is murder. Is killing a mother better than killing a child?

Aceticon , 7 days ago (edited 7 days ago)

The killing of children is widelly deemed the most immoral kind of murder, because there is no way it can be spinned as the killing of people guilty of anything or a self-defense: children are almost by definition innocent and incapable of defending themselves or overpower an adult, especially young ones - it takes a special kind of individual (namelly, sociopath or psychopath) to not only willingly take human life, but even that of those who are guaranteed innocent and totally incapable of defending themselves, much less attacking.

This actually is reflected in the numbers of murder victims, were children are killed in a far, far lower proportion of their numbers than adults, and ditto for war casualties: adults on both sides usually will go a lot further in protecting children, even not their own, than they will for adults.

It is surprising that in your moral framework you do not see the murder of children as an especially cold and calous kind of murder.

Carrolade , 7 days ago

I dunno, to me that’s a little arbitrary. Killing someone outside of self defense is just murder. So in your view is a school shooter worse than a mall shooter? Would you say murdering a handicapped stranger in a wheelchair who cannot defend themselves is worse than killing a healthy young adult stranger?

To me it’s all just killing innocent people, their age or health is irrelevant. The law makes no difference as far as I’m aware, it’s all murder. I don’t see any point in differentiating murders based on the traits of the victims.

Aceticon , 6 days ago

The vast majority of people in this World see the killing of other human beings as something that covers a moral range, with something like self-defense when in direct danger for one’s life being at the more acceptable end of the scale and the killing of the young children at the more unacceptable end of the scale.

This moral scale within murder also applies to the murderers themselves, which is why - as I pointed out earlier - in murder statistics and deaths in wars, children form a far smaller proportion of the deaths in comparison to the total of children, than people of other ages for in proportion to the total of people of those ages.

So even if you yourself haven’t a heightened sense of revulsion for some murderes versus others (which, by the way, is not normal), even people who kill other people generally find the killing of children harder or even unnacceptable.

In practice child murder is pretty well correlated with the highest levels of sociopathy and psychopathy, so a military which practices high levels of child murder has higher levels of psychopaths and sociopaths in their midst and leadership, and they have freer reign to act in psychopathic and sociopathic ways with no punishment - there are always some psychopaths and sociopaths in the military, but there being so many that child-murder is a generalized practice including specific targetting children - for example snipping children or bombing playgrounds - is incredibly rare.

We saw this with the SS and the Nazis, and we see this with the IDF and the Zionists.

Carrolade , 6 days ago

This seems a bit made up. Again, the law makes no difference.

Regarding this moral scale, I disagree. I think the vast majority of the world sees it as binary. Murder bad. Self defense okay. Either/or, no sliding scale present. Do you have any sort of evidence?

which is why - as I pointed out earlier - in murder statistics and deaths in wars, children form a far smaller proportion of the deaths in comparison to the total of children, than people of other ages for in proportion to the total of people of those ages.

This is not sound. There are many reasons children could die in wars less, with evacuation from conflict zones being a big one. Similarly with crime, where things like gang violence will never target them due to them not being gang members.

In practice child murder is pretty well correlated with the highest levels of sociopathy and psychopathy, so a military which practices high levels of child murder has higher levels of psychopaths and sociopaths in their midst

This is not sound. You point out leadership in the very next line, and leadership absolutely makes a big difference. One correlation is not enough to draw such a conclusion when there are other factors.

I’m academically inclined, personally, so I pay great attention to details and do not think with my feelings. So these details are important to me.

Aceticon , 6 days ago

Every single Justice System in the World has a range of sentences for even the same kind of killing crime (for example for Murder) and even different crimes for the killing of another human being (such as Murder vs Manslaughter).

So even the various Justice Systems in the World recognize different levels of blame and deserved punishment for different situations where a human being kills another.

Justice Systems, even if containing plenty of unfair or ill-drafted laws, at the high-level encode what Society finds acceptable and unacceptable - you might have some countries with the Death Penalty and others without, and different minimum sentences for Murder across the World, but there isn’t a single Justice Systems in the World with a single fixed sentence for Murder, which would be what matches your “Murder is Murder” position.

Meanwhile your argument on this is “the law makes no difference”. Full, unadulterated, 100% personal opinion of the denialist kind.

Denialism is not Skepticism and it’s the very opposite of “academically inclined” and putting forward and holding a theory entirelly on what you believe without in this entire thread even once putting forward even the most basic piece of supporting evidence that the rest of the World thinks like you (everything has literally been what you think and what you disagree with) is about as anti-academic as it gets.

Granted, for you it is as you say - Murder is Murder - (that’s pretty well established by now).

For everybody else there are only two logical possibilities:

• Most other people don’t think like you
• Most other people do think like you and the discrepancy between everybody thinking like you but setting some of the most important formal structures in Society in a way which is completelly inconsistent with that, is that everybody else but you is a moron.

Occan’s Razors is a pretty straighforward way to determine which of the two possibilities is the most likely.

Carrolade , 6 days ago

Okay, so do murderers of children get worse sentences then, on average? With supporting data, preferably.

Murder and manslaughter are differentiated via intent, same with things like first or second degree murder. Afaik, the traits of the victims are not taken into account, that I’ve ever heard anyway.

Aceticon , 6 days ago

The very first link in a Google search - several states have explicity sentences for the murder of children, either with higher maximums, higher minimums or transforming things which would otherwise be Manslaughter into the same as First Degree Murder. (Just search for “Child” in that page to find those).

Also check this paper. Even though it’s about gender rather than age, you can find the point I made earlier about “vulnerability” for example at page 435 section B.1 as well as explicity references to children in the various Sentencing Aggravatory Scales under Apending I (from page 464) explicitly under scale I and IV and implicitly in other scales (i.e. Scale 3 - Heinousness) which whilst they don’t prove that child killing explicitly is deemed more heinous than others, does prove my point that society has Heinousness criteria for Murder, disproving your “Murder is Murder” take.

Carrolade , 6 days ago

Three results for ctrl+f child.

First somewhat supports your claim.

First Degree Murder 25 years to life

Assault Causing the Death of A Child Under 8 Years of Age (Penal Code 273ab(a)) 25 years to life

The second specifies it has to be someone under your care.

the victim was a vulnerable person under the care of the offender (a child under 18, elderly person, or disabled adult)

The third has the same sentence for both.

Manslaughter Maximum of 40 years in prison (eligible for parole after 25 years if the defendant was under 18)

Manslaughter of a child under 10 10 to 40 years in prison without parole (eligible for parole after 25 years if the defendant was under 18)

Then there are 47 other states that seem to make no distinction, supporting my opinion that traits of the victim do not really matter.

I’ll check the other read later, it sounds like a deeper look.

Aceticon , 6 days ago

First a note: The third entrance you found has a minimum sentence of 10 years in jail for child Manslaughter and no minimum sentence for adult Manslaughter, hence is nor the “same sentence” - per that law even if the Juri finds reasons for a sentence lower than 10 years in prison, the sentence cannot be less than 10 years in prison if the victim was a child.

The paper in the second link covers sentencing guidelines (which is formal guidance for prosecutors but not actual law, so they can disregard it) and how jurors actually decided (i.e. derived from de facto results), both of which as far as I can tell are much more common way sthan “by way of formal law” in shaping the sentences for killing of children are different than others.

Quite independently of all that, even just that first link (first result in the Google search) disproves that notion of yours that Murder is Murder.

Carrolade , 6 days ago

Ah, I missed that minimum, thank you. Perhaps murder is murder was a bit exaggerated, but my primary point that the traits of the victims don’t really matter, and shouldn’t really matter, still stands.

I think what’s happening, incidentally, is a cultural thing. You are part of a particular culture, and so you and ideas you spend a lot of time around have a certain view. I don’t think it is as broad as you think, though, where the “vast majority” agrees with you.

Being interested in a technical understanding, I’m intentionally ignoring any cultural influences I was raised with (like, “women and children first!”, stuff like that), because I am worried they are ultimately inaccurate, and may introduce bias into how I am thinking about it. This is why Occam’s Razor does not matter to me, it is a guideline and nothing more. I want to be technically, precisely correct, as much as I can manage. A guideline is no good for that.

That said, I am curious if the more detailed paper changes my understanding any. The law is an interesting subject for me.

Aceticon , 6 days ago (edited 6 days ago)

Oh, it’s absolutelly cultural, probably derived from empathy (check the Vulnerability chapter in the paper in my second link), and it seems to be almost universal at least in the modern Western World.

And indeed, going back to the very beginning of our discussion, I was giving emphasis to the killing of children by the Zionists as an especially abhorrent crime because I do share that feeling as I am part of that culture just like I expect are the majority of those that would read my post. I don’t write comments to convince the tiny subset of people who find it easy to have a very detached view on the purposeful killing of human beings, I write my comments to convince most people and I wasn’t even being manipulative because the take I have on the morality of child killing is based on the feelings I have on which deaths are more abhorrent which seems to be the same as most people likely to read my comments.

That said, a purely logical and as objective as possible analysis would still yield that the murder of children is generally a worse act than the murder of adults, simply because children have in average a lot more years as a productive citizens ahead of them than adults: in pure, emotion aside, almost Accounting terms, targetting children in a war is targetting the Future of a nation by taking out their Future productive capability.

In fact, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that’s exactly the calculation that the Zionists made - if one has no empathy and hence no sense of added abhorrence when it comes to child murder and one has as a strategical objective to weaken now and forever an entire enemy ethnicity, it makes logical sense to target the children of the “enemy ethnicity” in order to further that strategical objective and the absence of empathy guarantees there are no pesky feelings like guilt getting in the way.

Carrolade , 6 days ago

Taking it back to Gaza, a genocide is a genocide. It’s an attempt at eradication of a whole group of people. Of course it’s heinous, and it’s difficult for me to think of any other way to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, which clearly is the goal as said by their own nationalists, without killing the people there. If there are kids there, they will be involved.

This is inherently heinous, by virtue of its scale and overarching goal. The fact that it necessitates killing children is simply obvious to me, and in no way changes how I see the whole thing. It’s like pointing out a candle when the whole house is already on fire.

I suppose a core difference is I’m not really trying to convince anyone of anything regarding Gaza though. Lemmy is overwhelmingly against the genocide, which I think is good and correct. I’m more interested in personally understanding various things, and correcting misinformation when I run into it, particularly with regards to history or science. Which is why I originally jumped in to talk about the prevalence of genocides in the modern era.

Back to child murder, you’re still applying an inherent value, this time on the good of the society, where children have more years ahead of them. This is still a cultural influence, a purely objective position would not apply additional value to anything like human health or happiness. Nobody has to care about the future, and I’d say recent times illustrate that a great many people even desire a future of human extinction. All these apocalypse-cheering types you run into online, the hardcore religious rapture folks, groups like that. I do not agree with these positions, but I cannot understand them unless I am capable of being coldly objective about these things.

sndmn , 7 days ago

deleted_by_author

kamenoko , 6 days ago

Cap.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

A group of genocidal terrorists is better than a democracy by a wide margin?

sndmn , 6 days ago

deleted_by_author

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

Hamas went into villages and murdered everyone they could find. They weren’t targeting military and some civilians being in the wrong place at the wrong time. They planned an attack to murder as many civilians as they could and executed that plan.

Before that for about a decade and a half they’ve been firing rockets towards population centers. It’s only because Israel spent billions of dollars to protect their civilian population that Hamas hasn’t been able to kill more civilians. And what do Hams spend their money on? Palaces in Qatar and tunnels under Gaza to keep themselves safe while they leave their civilian population at the mercy of an army they claim to be committing genocide.

uis , 6 days ago

bloody My Little Ponies of the Middle East.

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/01d31c7f-0e2e-4603-9cb5-6132b499b356.jpeg

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

Ethiopia has done way worse rather recently: economist.com/…/ethiopia-is-deliberately-starving…

You just didn’t care about it because it doesn’t fit a simple good-guy/bad-guy narrative that makes it easy to blame people you’ve been predisposed into thinking are evil.

Also aid is getting into Gaza. There’s a pier built by the US and the IDF has implemented a daily 11 hour tactical pause so aid can flow in. Israel doesn’t normally do military campaigns this long so doesn’t have the resources to deal with this kind of crisis. Other countries aren’t stepping up because who wants to commit ground forces to Gaza to distribute aid? No one.

Hamas agreeing to a ceasefire would be a big help, but why would they? Starving Palestinian children helps their cause because it makes people like you so angry you will just blindly support Hamas.

Aceticon , 6 days ago (edited 6 days ago)

Ah, yeah, Ethiopia, that self-proclaimed nation with “Western Values”, which has the “Most Moral Army In The World” and is supported militarilly by the US in the specific actions causing death and starvation amongst the children of the targetted ethnicity.

What you’re saying is that in reality Israel is pretty much a Fascist authocracy, like Ethiopia, hence having the same disregard for human life, especially children. That does make sense.

As for the rest of your bollocks, given that the blocade of Gaza for food, water, fuel and energy has been openly decreed by the Israeli Government, all that disassembly of yours pointingly ignoring the primary cause of it and throwing all the the excuses you can think of at the wall and see if something sticks, is just another technique straight out of Himmler’s book of tricks, in order of appearance:

• “there is really no starvation” (even though the UN says there is)
• “we’re actually trying to help them” (even though Zionists created the problem in the first place and could instantly stop it right now by letting aid in by land, but refuse to)
• “other people aren’t helping” (even though it’s not their fault and the ones who did and still now try to help, such as the UN, had and still have most of their help blocked from entering by the Zionists)
• “it’s really all their fault and they’re the ones killing their own children by not agreeing to our demands” (an almost perfect example of the “why do you make me do this to you by refusing to do what I want?” of sociopaths).
• “it’s really all their fault and they’re the ones killing their own children for political gain with the world’s public opinion”
• “you only criticise the purposeful starvation of children in Gaza because you blindly support Hamas” (basically, “if you don’t support us, you support our enemy”)

It’s amazing how you ethno-Fascists haven’t really evolved much from the 1930s.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

What you’re saying is that in reality Israel is pretty much a Fascist authocracy, like Ethiopia, hence having the same disregard for human life, especially children. That does make sense.

Nope. I’m saying you don’t care about black people. When millions of black people were starving you simply didn’t care.

Aceticon , 6 days ago

Once again you’re showing that in your worldview everything is about race just like all ethno-Fascists.

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

Ah yes, the far right tactic of claiming that anyone that recognizes the existence of racism is a racist.

Aceticon , 6 days ago

From Nazis to Zionists all ethno-Fascists claim their violence along ethnic lines is for the defense of a specific ethnicity and that any violence is justifiable to defend their ethnicity, hence for them anybody who condemns that violence must be a racist: just like 80 years ago they said those who criticized them were “against the Arian Race”, now they say critics are “antisemitic”.

Further, this worldview extends to everything and sees everybody as first and foremost a member of an ethnicity: all actions of anybody out there are for the ethno-Fascist due to those people’s race or to the race of others, both at the level of why people do things and the kind of things people can do, and that includes not just actions but words too - voiced criticism or approval and even lack of criticism or approval are all seen as due to race. Even inaction is seen as due to race.

Everybody looks like a racists to an ethno-Fascist since they’re the biggest racists around and couldn’t possibly imagine that other people would not have race as motivation for what they say or do.

zbyte64 , 6 days ago

But you didn’t bring up Uighur which by your own logic proves you don’t care about them. Why didn’t you bring them up as well? Is their plight also not important? Why is your heart so small?

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

I’m not the one that said what’s happening in Gaza is the worst thing to happen since the Nazis. See the problem with constantly being hyperbolic is that it results in all kinds of horrible implications. The implication of the statement that Gaza is the worst thing to happen in 75 years is that you’re at best ignorant of history, and at worst you’ve dehumanized victims of the many atrocities that have happened in that time period.

So which is it? The victims of what happened in Ethiopia, what’s happening in China, the victims of the Rwandan genocide, the victims of the Killing Fields of Cambodia, the people of China that starved in the “Great Leap Forward” (this list goes on and on) aren’t people so therefore you don’t need to even consider these events of the over 75 years since the Nazis held power? Or are you simply ignorant of history?

It’s probably best just to claim ignorance and refrain from hyperbole in the future.

zbyte64 , 6 days ago

I guess when people are standing up to a genocide I don’t assume the worse interpretation of their words 🤷 but you do you

SpaceCowboy , 6 days ago

When people try to “both sides” genocide in an attempt to normalize it in an effort to rationalize the horrific acts committed by their side, then yeah I don’t give a lot of leeway.

Prandom_returns , 7 days ago

The war of religious shitheads.

GBU_28 , 8 days ago

Insanity. Even if these numbers are exaggerated 2x that’s still 25k kids in danger.

That boggles the mind

retrospectology , 8 days ago

Gaza is quite literally mostly chldren. Average age was already ~18 before this latest stage of the genocide started. The adults have mostly been killed, imprisoned or driven out.

Burstar , 8 days ago

The tragic irony of so many chickens coming home to roost but still being unable to feed the “martyrs of the future”.

Strawberry , 8 days ago

the fuck are you on about

MrShankles , 7 days ago

Could you explain your metaphor please? I understand the first idiom, but can’t put it together in a way that makes sense to me. Would you mind ‘plainly’ stating what you’re implying?.. cause I’m at a bit of a loss

It may be that I’m not so literarily keen; but your comment seems… idiosyncratic? Idk, I’m probs just uninformed. Please help

werefreeatlast , 8 days ago

That’s just heart breaking. Israel needs a heart.

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

Aid trucks remain stranded at the Southern entry points, with Raremoved closed over Israel crossing Biden’s supposed red line. Israeli citizens - not IOF - routinely block the trucks and destroy their contents while the IOF watches. Israel maintains its blockade of Gaza that it has imposed since 2007 that prevents aid from entering any other way and used pressure campaigns on Turkey and Guinnea-Bissau to hamstring the Gaza Freedom Flotilla.

It’s important to remember that the oppression of Gaza and Palestinians is a central project of Zionism that spans multiple leaders and requires the active consent of several coordinating parties, with the US imperial apparatus at the top and the Israeli Zionist project just below. If Netanyahu died today virtually all of Zionists’ policies would remain in place. Netanyahu was not in power when most of them were instituted.

Opinion polls now show increased support for Netanyahu since October and if you dig just a little deeper you’ll find that the primary complaint of Israelis is that he’s not even more militaristic, more brutal, and “protecting” Israelis in this fashion. In other words, the illusion of immunity was broken and they are lashing out. Imagine who would have power if Netanyahu died.

Biden provides unconditional support to this genocidal project and this is more or less in line with decades of US policy, although he is even to the right of Reagan in that he won’t pick up a phone and actually draw a line. A return to the status quo, which was still horrible for Palestinians, is a bridge too far for the Biden administration. And as you can see, that administration enjoys wide cover from tired and bad faith talking points from a media apparatus that equates the humanization of Palestinians with antisemitism.

If you oppose genocide and consider Palestinians human, then our shared enemies include but also go beyond the current leaders of the United States and Israel. The deeper underlying forces are political economic. They’re why when students demand divestment the University administrations would rather sic cops on them than lose a little cash. They’re why military contractors nearly always get their way. They’re why people like Biden and Netanyahu receive support in the first place, including the tired and politically incompetent lesser evil vote nagging. Political power is not to be a sheep following the orders of wolves, but to become educated and work together.

Serinus , 8 days ago

You can’t properly comment from your instance.

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

What do you mean?

Serinus , 8 days ago

Screenshot of comment with lemmy.ml autoedits

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

I still don’t understand but maybe I’m missing something related to what the other commentor said about autocensor. The previous comment does not make any sense.

siipale , 8 days ago

I think it’s just that raremoved part. Which comment didn’t make sense?

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

Ha sorry this is probably a lot simpler than I’m making it.

From my instance, the comment that doesn’t make sense to me says, “You can’t properly comment from your instance.”.

I was guessing that maybe this was an awkwardly phrased dig at lemmy.ml, but from your responses I’m now wondering if it is some kind of instance-edited message.

I appreciate any clarity you can bring to this! I feel like I’m missing something obvious, lol

siipale , 8 days ago

I think you guessed right. It could be phrased more clearly but I think they were just pointing out that since your comment is partially censored and your instance is known for word filter censoring, in their opinion your instance is not suitable for commenting properly. Maybe they wanted to inform you in case you didn’t notice or it was just a dig at lemmy.ml.

It’s not good for readability when random parts of text gets removed. I’m not familiar with the topic of this thread so I can’t deduce what Raremoved even means.

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

Ah okay. Thank you for helping me understand!

I was referring to the primary aid borde crossing between Gaza and Egypt. Maybe I had a typo, maybe not. If my next word has “removed” in it, then part of the name is censored. Rafah. If not, I originally had a typo.

Thanks again!

GBU_28 , 8 days ago

Auto censor creating jibberish

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

Is it like a bot that edits comments containing censored content to make them look like odd message?

GBU_28 , 8 days ago

It’s .ml, it has a word filter.

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

I’m still confused, unfortunately, and thank you for bearing with me! I’m used to the word filter just saying “removed” for a single word but this looks different. Any chance you can help me understand what’s different about their comment?

Censored , 8 days ago

Meanwhile, Hamas leaders sit in Qatar, congratulating themselves on what a successful jihad they’ve waged against Israel. The blood of many innocent Palestinian women and children has been shed, which is what they said they needed to draw global attention to the conflict and increase recruiting of future Hamas fighters, funders, and apologists.

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

Hamas are the ruling party of Gaza, a region occupied by Israelis and not permitted elections for over a decade. By international law, they have every right to resist occupation by all necessary means. I have plenty of criticisms of Hamas, but they are not the primary oppressor in Gaza. That is, obviously, reserved for the occupiers that prevent Palestinians from having food and clean water. From having the right of return. For being permanent refugees.

If Palestine falls, the people who supported their disposession will hold land acknowledgements for them. They refuse to oppose actual genocidal and apartheid regimes. They will only feel guilty after the systems they support have finished the deed. This is the outcome produced by comlicity in oppression and disposession.

You will feel better if you reject these horrors.

Censored , 8 days ago

Hamas were elected to power by winning a plurality of the votes, whereupon they formed a coalition government. Then they killed their coalition to make a single-party government. The lack of elections in Gaza since then is because Hamas and Fatah can’t agree on the terms and conditions of the next election, which had been scheduled and postponed multiple times prior to this war. In my opinion, the main problem is that Hamas was afraid of losing seats to Fatah, because they were getting very unpopular before the war.

The fact is that elections are not actually blocked by Israel. Good to see that you spout bullshit in your first sentence without checking facts first, though. That tells me how seriously I should take the rest of your comment.

International law does not give any government the right to resist occupation by any or “all necessary means.” That’s another little lie you slipped in. The territory of Palestine is a signatory to the Geneva Convention, which means that the laws of war apply. But Hamas does not follow the laws of war… They target civilians instead of military installations, they engage in perfidy through the use of civilian clothes, which puts the actual civilian population of Gaza in great danger.

You’d feel better if you told the truth. There are strong truthful arguments against both Israel and Hamas. Because both are directly responsible for the genocide of Palestinians. I suggest you focus on the parties which are directly responsible, rather than moaning about the “complicity” of random foreigners in an attempt to disparage everyone who doesn’t buy into your terrorist whitewashing and disinformation campaign.

I’m not going to feel guilty for ensuring that Hamas gets their fair share of the blame.

TheOubliette , 8 days ago

Hamas were elected to power by winning a plurality of the votes, whereupon they formed a coalition government. Then they killed their coalition to make a single-party government.

An absurd falsehood. Fatah refused to form a government with Hamas, but the idea that Hamas simply killed them I’d an absurd invention. A child’s fantasy.

The lack of elections in Gaza since then is because Hamas and Fatah can’t agree on the terms and conditions of the next election, which had been scheduled and postponed multiple times prior to this war.

As an occupied people this onus actually falls on the occupier, believe it or not.

In my opinion, the main problem is that Hamas was afraid of losing seats to Fatah, because they were getting very unpopular before the war.

Congratulations on having a wrong opinion.

The fact is that elections are not actually blocked by Israel. Good to see that you spout bullshit in your first sentence without checking facts first, though. That tells me how seriously I should take the rest of your comment.

Israel is an occupying power and culpable for all that occurs under their occupation. They are an illegitimate and racist government that has always dramatically meddled in these elections. Or are you unaware of what happened in East Jerusalem in 2006? Your narrative conventiently ommits any mention of this.

International law does not give any government the right to resist occupation by any or “all necessary means.” That’s another little lie you slipped in. The territory of Palestine is a signatory to the Geneva Convention, which means that the laws of war apply.

‘UNGA Resolution 37/43 (1982) reaffirmed the “inalienable right” of the Palestinian people “and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination” to self-determination. It also reaffirmed the legitimacy of “the struggle of peoples for […] liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.”’

It is not difficult to find and establish the right for the Palestinian people to fofhyan armed struggle against all occupiers. This has been affirmed and reaffirmed many times. I mention this under the presumption that you or others care about “the rules” this being foundational to pretenses of legitimacy.

Palestine was not a signatory to the Geneva convention, this is a ahistorical nonsense. The PLO unilaterally declared it in 2014, that’s a decade ago. When the Geneva Convention was drafted, Palestine was “legally” under British control and was not in a position to have such sovereignty.

I am amused by your little attempts at jabs, though. They are revealing.

But Hamas does not follow the laws of war… They target civilians instead of military installations, they engage in perfidy through the use of civilian clothes, which puts the actual civilian population of Gaza in great danger.

No more than any other group.

You’d feel better if you told the truth. There are strong truthful arguments against both Israel and Hamas. Because both are directly responsible for the genocide of Palestinians.

Hamas is not responsible for the genocide of Palestinians. That falls on the greater occupying powers that forced displacement, disposession , and mass murder upon them, which is of course Western powers and their Zonist compatriots. You are carrying water for them by promulgating these falsehoods.

I suggest you focus on the parties which are directly responsible, rather than moaning about the “complicity” of random foreigners in an attempt to disparage everyone who doesn’t buy into your terrorist whitewashing and disinformation campaign.

I am focused on the parties directly responsible. Only you are under the delusion that a militarized resistance to occupation is somehow responsible for the apartheid regime imposed by another power, the indiscriminate civilian bombing campaigns carried out by that power, the full blockade of Gaza by that power, the storming of refugee camps by that power. It is a twisted and dishonest rationalization that blames the resistance to oppressio for the oppression itself, absolving the holders of the guns, the missiles, the planes, the invading forces, the village burners.

I’m not going to feel guilty for ensuring that Hamas gets their fair share of the blame.

I hadn’t asked you to feel guilty. But it seems you have an inkling that you support genocide and need a way to absolve yourself. You won’t find that absolution from myself. Perhaps you will find it in a truck marked for aid for Palestinian refugees that is actually full of IOF soldiers ready to help kill 200 refugees in exchange for 4 Israelis. Perhaps you will find absolution in the propaganda campaigns to demonize some of those 4 Israelis who say their experience during capture amounted to having to clean and cook and receive birthday cakes. How dare they humanize Palestinians. Somewhere in that mess of thought, you might find the train of thought that resolves the inconsistencies you are clearly concerned about, though making the wrong choice at every turn.

Personally, I have not focused on your absolution. That is something you have raised. I hope that you find it honestly and with a prioritization of humanity and truth, which stands in contrast to the lazy read or propaganda you have offered.

Censored , 7 days ago

I’m not going to waste a lot of time on this, other than to tell you that Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh (then leader of Hamas) formed a Palestinian Unity Government with Fatah on March 17, 2007. It lasted until Hamas took control of Gaza via violence beginning on June 14, 2007, whereupon PA President Abbas fired the Hamas PM and the Hamas-led government, and appointed Salam Fayyad as the new PM. This was not recognized in Gaza, where Hamas continued to rule through violence after killing or ejecting all the Fatah government officials from Gaza.

www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/15/israel4

I could go point by point debunking a number of your claims and exaggerations, but there’s clearly no point in wasting any more time conversing with you.

TheOubliette , 7 days ago

killing or ejecting

So you have more accurately revised your claim. I’m glad that I could help you reach a better understanding.

I could go point by point debunking a number of your claims and exaggerations, but there’s clearly no point in wasting any more time conversing with you.

Okay bye then.

JoMiran , 8 days ago

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/8d46881d-c845-4895-ac6b-151458dffa61.jpeg

FlyingSquid , 8 days ago

Netanyahu knows that every time a child dies, Hamas gains sympathizers and people willing to join, and yet Israel keeps saying the eradication of Hamas is the only way to secure their nation. This is a forever war.

goferking0 , 8 days ago

That’s why they’re doing the genocide

Censored , 8 days ago

They don’t just gain sympathizers in Gaza. They gain sympathizers globally, especially in ME countries. And the genocide of people in Gaza won’t eliminate the Palestinians, anyways. They are a worldwide diaspora now, just like the Jews.

MrShankles , 7 days ago

I feel like you skipped a few steps in your conclusion, cause having retyped this comment several times now, it does seem logical (though logically evil and morally corrupt; which nobody’s surprised). And I’m not entirely convinced it’s just Netanyahu trying to create a “forever war”

I was gonna say that it seems more like “blatant genocide” than a “forever war”… and how can a war be “forever” if one side is obliterated?

But then I thought, “Maybe genocide is just a bonus for Isreal”, while also being a ‘unique’ way to stir-up the concept of “War on terrorism, in the US”. Their “War on drugs” has lost some traction (and also serves a different purpose), but maybe they can put a convoluted spin on the “War on Terrorism”.

The US is allowing “allies” to commit genocide for the greater good of their own military complex/gain?.. because their current “forever wars” have been experiencing downturns? Maybe it is a “forever war” with genocide as a bonus for Isreal?

I can’t dispute your statement well, because it doesn’t seem too “off key”. It just feels like you’ve made some logical leaps… or I’m just falling into conspiracy-driven-logic. Idk, but I appreciate giving me something to ponder more closely

FlyingSquid , 7 days ago

I would also suggest you read this article about Netanyahu’s former best friend and about his using this war as a pretext to cement dictatorial power.

www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-798324

I should have definitely given more context.

puppy , 8 days ago

Fuck Netanyahu. Fuck Biden.

braindefragger , 8 days ago (edited 8 days ago)

deleted_by_author

puppy , 8 days ago

Obviously.

Fuck Netanyahu. Fuck Biden. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel for occupying West Bank.

Let me know If I forgot anything else.

braindefragger , 8 days ago (edited 8 days ago)

deleted_by_author

TrippyFocus , 8 days ago

Because it’s the least relevant party and the one we have the least influence on given Israel has been doing a slow genocide for decades and America has enabled it. If Israel hadn’t been doing this for decades Hamas wouldn’t even exist.

braindefragger , 8 days ago (edited 8 days ago)

deleted_by_author

TrippyFocus , 8 days ago

Enlighten me what the “accurate story” is then.

OccamsTeapot , 8 days ago

Even stating the well documented FACTs I listed about Hamas and what they have done, gets downvoted. Is that not extremely fucked up?

This is a story about 50k children getting sicker because Israel is intentionally starving them. And yet all you did was talk about Hamas. Nothing about these kids. That is extremely fucked up and that is why you got downvoted.

You see starving kids and you respond with the very propaganda used by the perpetrators to justify it

IndustryStandard OP , 8 days ago

But do you condemn Hamas? /s

watson387 , 8 days ago

People! Come together! Fuck 'em all, Netanyahu, Biden AND Hamas.

masquenox , 8 days ago

AND Hamas.

And who is going to put up a finger of resistance against your precious genocidal white supremacist settler colonialist project, liberal?

You?

m13 , 8 days ago

Hamas is just a tool funded by Netanyahu to excuse the ongoing genocide.

Palestinians have every right to resist being genocided by one of the most evil regimes in history. There could have been socialist or more progressive freedom fighters but they were all destroyed by Israel. Israel wanted the resistance to be Islamist because if there’s going to be a resistance to outright genocide they’re easier to paint as the enemy.

Israel has no right to exist. It’s a white supremaicst ethnostate existing on stolen land. “Israelis” need to abolish the state and go back to their own countries.

They’ve been able to get away with settler-colonialism, apartheid, torture, and genocide for 75 years by playing the “antisemitism” card but that has to come to an end now.

braindefragger , 8 days ago (edited 8 days ago)

deleted_by_author

masquenox , 8 days ago

deleted_by_moderator

m13 , 8 days ago

“I’m supporting the indiscriminate genocide of an entire group of people whose land I’ve stolen, but it’s everyone else who’s a Nazi!”

Good job at reasoning buddy. 👍🏻

Are Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, and Gabor Mate all nazis too?

The_Cunt_of_Monte_Cristo , 8 days ago

Oh wait, people are getting paid for telling the truth? Where can I apply?

TheFonz , 8 days ago (edited 8 days ago)

I find these kinds of oversimplifications childish and stifle any effort towards finding solutions. There’s a difference between what ought to happen and what is realistic and achievable. I know we’re on Lemmy and we all agree on the genocide, apartheid, colonialism, etc, but we ought to channel the conversation towards more productive outlets. Maybe you guys just learned about Palestine after October 7, but thie conflict has been going on for 75+ years.

Saying things like “Israelis need to abolish the state and go back to their own countries” is a vacuous and meaningless statement that feels good but contributes nothing. Children born last year in the state of Israel are not directly responsible for the establishment of the state of which they are citizens just like US citizens are not going to return to the original countries of their grandparents and return the lands they settled to Native Americans. It sucks, it happened, but we aren’t reversing the clock of time.

Israel is able to always gain the upper hand after each attack. Every time there is an attack or intifada Israel benefits because it:

a) responds with disproportionate aggression (see 30000+ deaths

b) expands settlements

To say that Israel supports Hamas is also kinda besides the point when the Palestinian population endorses Hamas overwhelmingly.

Instead, in my opinion, we should be pushing for an immediate ceasefire and steer the conversation towards a two state solution and the demolition of illegal settlements incurred in certain areas. The only way we can move forward is by getting realistic concessions from Israel. But that will never happen by using this feel good rhetoric such as eradicating all Israelis from the area. We gotta bring the Israelis to the table and stop the violence asap.

Censored , 8 days ago

“Israelis” need to abolish the state and go back to their own countries.

What an absolutely delusional comment. I do not support the way Israel is conducting this war (which is a genocide). But the solution is not the genocide - even the self-committed genocide - of Israel.

The region is multi-ethnic, multi-religious, and multi-cultural. This is a fact that needs to be accepted by both sides.

The morally correct path forward is a secular multiethnic state, or states, that integrates the residents of the area and provides everyone with full and equal rights of citizenship, including fundamental human rights, regardless of their national origin, ethnic heritage, or religion.

As long as people like you keep calling for ethnic cleansing and/or the genocidal abolishment of an entire nation of people based on their nationality - be it Palestinian or Israeli- the outcome will be two tribes locked into an eternal struggle for existence, doing their best to brutally eliminate their enemy while creating future generations of enemies.

masquenox , 8 days ago

Oh look… the hasbara has shown up.

queermunist , 8 days ago

innocent people,

You mean IDF reservists and veterans?

spyd3r , 8 days ago

You forgot Sinwar