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nitrogenez ,
@nitrogenez@lemmy.world avatar

yuppie

crackajack ,

ITT: plenty of vatniks sowing doubt with further supporting Ukraine.

tetris11 ,
@tetris11@lemmy.ml avatar

I do wish there was some honest reporting from at least one of the sides though.

crackajack ,

Trolls and vatniks have been telling to the people it’s “getting cold” since last year to dissuade more support for Ukraine. Well, a lot more will lose than just heating for homes by tolerating Putin.

Adkml ,

Great timing, I’m sure everybody is forgetting how it cost a small fortune to heat their home last winter right about now.

PanArab ,
@PanArab@lemmy.ml avatar

The US is treating the EU like a doner kebab to feed Ukraine

besbin ,

Is this just a kind of inflation/recession write off for the EU and USA at this point? oh, our economy is not doing so great, we are short by X% of development from project, let’s just write that off as ‘aids’ to Ukraine/Israel

cosecantphi , (edited )
@cosecantphi@hexbear.net avatar

So how close to losing and being forced into an unconditional surrender does Ukraine need to be before Europe stops sending aid at their own huge expense?

figaro ,

I think the plan is to not let it get to that point? Ukraine is the front line against Russia. If the front line falls, the front line then becomes Poland, which is just one step away from Germany.

Sowhatever ,

Huge expense? Not one life lost, all infrastructure intact and got rid of mostly 80’s military hardware while getting budget for new stuff and a whole lot of free field testing and marketing for export.

We are not sending gold bars or euro bills, we’re paying local companies to produce ammo or sending surplus hardware “for the value of $$$” that would otherwise sit in a hangar somewhere.

This is the cheapest war “Europe” has ever fought, can’t say the same about Ukraine or Russia.

LarkinDePark ,

The reason they’re trying to fast track EU membership for Ukraine, a country that in normal times would stand zero chance of membership, is so that its debts to the US will become all of the EU’s. This won’t be cheap.

IjonTichy ,

That's the stupidest take I've read in a long time. This is just not how any of it works.

LarkinDePark ,

Why do you think the EU would want a shithole like Ukraine (even before the Nazi’s ran the place) as a member? Open to your genius take.

Hexadecimalkink ,

Germany is on a steady decline, decisions like this increase the pace.

DriftinGrifter ,

Why?

statist43 ,

Because nobody needs to support their partners! The only thing that counts is OUR country and OUR freedom !!!

/s

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Ah yes, supporting partners the way US supported Germany by blowing up their gas pipeline.

Sowhatever ,

Was it the US? I though it was zelensky…

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Does anybody actually buy that story?

java , (edited )

The only thing that counts is OUR country and OUR freedom !!!

This position is natural, I wouldn’t criticize people for that. What people fail to understand is that “OUR” country and “THEIR” country exist on the same globe. “OUR” country will feel consequences too if Russia doesn’t lose.

statist43 ,

“OUR” country will feel consequences too if Russian doesn’t lose

Thats the point. Beimg nationalist is not completly wrong, because you still live in your country.

But I a country just looks for itself, it doesnt blend out all the other countries and the problem they have. Our world is interconnected like in no time before, wd cant just shut our eyes and try to be happy.

And as germany is the biggest economy in Europe, we should be more supportive than economically smaller countries

statist43 ,

Elaborate please

Hexadecimalkink ,

Germany is now running deficits to support a war that’s already been decided. Ukraine is a corrupt country where many weapons given to it find their way onto the international black market. The standard of living in Germany is getting worse. Using deficit spending on a non-productive good like weapons to a foreign country that is corrupt will accelerate Germany’s decline.

statist43 ,

So you think its better to dont support our partners, and let autocrats take what they want, bc we have bad money management?

The standard of living is declining everywhere on the world. Germany is still havimg it really good. We are just nagging, but we have really much. in my opinion we have to help other countries which have it bad.

Hexadecimalkink ,

If you’re going to stop Russia from invading Ukraine why aren’t you putting German troops in Ukraine? You’re not helping your partner your killing Ukranians to weaken America’s enemy. Tell me what the difference between Israel and Russia is and what they’re doing to their smaller neighbours is. And then tell me why Germany condemns one atrocity but supports the other. It’s not about supporting a partner and I think you’re being naive or disingeneous if you think so.

statist43 ,

We dont send troops, because it would be an intervemtion of foreign forces, in this situation its NATO forces. I think the rest needs no explanation.

Germany condemns Israels human rights violation PUBLICLY from ministers to chancellors nobody says its good.

And we send support to palestine too so I dont know what you are talking.

Germany doesnt give Israel tanks and weapons. Please enlighten my naiveness and tell me how germany supports one and not the other…

Hexadecimalkink ,

www.dw.com/en/…/a-67376036

porcupine ,

Germany continuing their longstanding tradition of funding Nazi collaborators to kill Russians.

sadreality ,

I want whatever this clown is smoking lol

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

sure, it’s not like this was extensively documented in western media or anything

sadreality ,

I don't think that's enough please post more links!

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

it’s pretty clear you’ll ignore whatever doesn’t fit with the fantasies you live in though

sadreality ,

Can you please explain to the people in the back what these fantasies are?

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

your original comment that I replied to already explains them perfectly well

sadreality ,

And the bravado is gone...

Sad

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

yes, your trolling is very sad and transparent

sadreality ,

Show us on this doll where the comments hurt Russia, boy

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

you really gotta up your troll game there kiddo

sadreality ,

U still here dear

el_bhm ,

All of this justifies Russia attacking a sovereign country, alright. With most of the equipment and uniforms bearing Z, the modern swastika. In mission to provide living room and freedom to true russian people. By committing genocide.

Also, land mines. Ukraine accused of using land mines. Projections give us 700 years to remove mines in Ukraine. 700. Years. Placed by a country that did not sign the Ottawa Treaty.

Now. Tell me about them projections. Cannot wait.

Then call me names.

And then a troll.

Or do we do whataboutism again (see the links comment, adding for clarity) and then change subjects?

Which part of the script are we rehearsing?

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

First of all, Ukraine lost its sovereignty back in 2014 in a western sponsored right wing coup that overthrew the legitimate and democratically elected government of the country.

I also love how you just keep pushing this false narrative about the war when Stoltenberg already let the cat out of the bag. The war happened because of NATO expansion plain and simple. This is something the west continued to deny for over a year, but now it’s right there in black and white:

Then lastly on Sweden. First of all, it is historic that now Finland is member of the Alliance. And we have to remember the background. The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.

The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm#:~…

Also, if you want to see what an actual genocide looks like, then look no further than to what Israel is doing with Biden’s blessing. That’s a real genocide where Israel massacred more civilians in three weeks than died in war in Ukraine in nearly two years.

Maybe get yourself a better script.

Skua ,

I see this Stoltenberg quote confidently thrown out so often in defence of Russia's invasion. Do you think Russia has some kind of actual right to invade countries if NATO doesn't do what it says? Would you be defending Germany if it sent a similar letter to the CSTO and then invaded Serbia?

LarkinDePark ,

Of course it does. It’s a superpower with a right to protect its citizens from the threats of the world’s most aggressive military alliance, making threats to install nukes etc. Do you think the US would behave differently?

Skua ,

Hot take but if the USA invaded Mexico because the CSTO refused to stop accepting members then I would, in fact, think that that was bad actually

LarkinDePark ,

But that’s not a singular scenario. If you want an analogy it would be Russia or China installing nukes on the US-Mexico border and constantly talking shit.

Skua ,

It's the direct comparison to the scenario Russia created when it sent that letter. It's literally just swapping:

  • The CSTO for NATO
  • America for Russia, as the aggressor with a big military
  • Mexico for Ukraine, as the smaller neighbour that's not even in the alliance in question

But let's not pretend it would be any more just for America to kill hundreds of thousands of Mexicans over nukes stored there. The way America treated Cuba around the time of the missile crisis was basically this, and I would hope that we can agree America was not justified in that. As it is you're just defending warmongering behaviour because it's against a side that you don't like.

LarkinDePark ,

But let’s not pretend it would be any more just for America

Nobody is saying it’s justified. It’s predictable, expected and a normal way for a superpower to behave. You don’t climb into the lion cage and whine about justice when you’re mauled. Russia, the USA, whichever is going to act in its interests and the interests of its security. The unjust part is on the aggressor, in this case the USA in Ukraine funding and arming Nazi extremists to threaten Russia for “its interests in the region” and killing hundreds of thousands because it’s “cheap” and a “good deal” for them.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

No world power will tolerate an aggressive military alliance on its borders. If you don’t understand this basic fact, then what else is there to say to you. NATO has been invading and destroyed countries for decades since USSR fell. The principle of invading countries because might makes right is already established by NATO.

It’s pretty funny that you bring up Serbia, given that what Russia is doing in Ukraine is directly modelled on what NATO did to Yugoslavia. NATO recognized independence of the separatist regions and then had them invite NATO to assist. This is precisely the formula Russia followed with DPR and LPR. Russia is just following the rules based world order here buddy.

Skua ,

If it's a free for all, Germany and its friends can do what they want and send Ukraine as many weapons as they like, can't they? Why have you got a problem with it? Under your logic they're just doing what world powers do

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Where did I say I had a problem with anything? The west chose to play a stupid game, and it’s very clearly turning into a debacle. Evidently you still don’t understand what’s happening though.

Skua ,

Oh I'm sorry, I must have mistaken your comment backing up the accusation of modern Germany doing Nazi stuff to be criticism of Germany's actions.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Modern Germany is literally backing a genocide in Gaza right now, so yeah we can definitely criticize modern Germany for doing nazi stuff. Meanwhile, anybody who thinks that the same country that’s aiding and abetting a literal genocide is also helping people of Ukraine really needs to get their head checked.

Skua ,

Okay so you do have a problem with it. So what the fuck was with the, "Where did I say I had a problem with anything?"

Meanwhile, anybody who thinks that the same country that’s aiding and abetting a literal genocide is also helping people of Ukraine really needs to get their head checked.

"Britain supplying the Soviet Union with thousands of aircraft and tanks to fight the Nazis during WW2 was bad because Britain had a colonial empire." No, these things don't affect one another. They can, in fact, be evaluated differently.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

You just keep trying to put words in my mouth when I’m explaining basic facts to you. Must be a coping mechanism you’ve developed.

Skua ,

Don't say stupid shit if you don't want to be asked about why you said stupid shit. I haven't put a single word in your mouth.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

You should really follow your own advice given that you’re the only one saying stupid shit here. The reality is that the west is cynically using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia. Anybody who keeps pretending that the west is helping Ukraine is a deplorable piece of human garbage.

runblack ,

You’re the one posting stupid shit again and again. Russia shouldn’t have invaded, period. No country in the EU longed for war with Russia. On the opposite Russian governments have a very long history of being absolutely paranoid, thus justyfing annexation and assimilation of countless territories and peoples for the sake of “feeling secure”. It’s absolutely ridiculous to fall for this shitty narrative that fits so well with the rest of dumb Russian propaganda.

Likewise there is no genocide in Gaza. If you’re in support of a terrorist group using hospitals, kindergartens, mosques, etc. to hide, keep hostages and store explosives, I’m really wondering how wicked one can be. Maybe you’re an antisemite?

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s pretty funny how you accuse me of posting stupid shit and then proceed to spew utter nonsense. Russia had no interest in invading Ukraine and was perfectly fine with the status quo, until the west overthrew the government in Ukraine. Then Russia tried to make Minsk work for 8 years while Ukraine and the west sabotaged it. Then finally, Russia gave NATO an ultimatum that NATO refused. There is overwhelming evidence now showing that aggressive NATO expansion was the reason for the war, and anybody who continues to spin this as anything else is deeply intellectually dishonest.

Meanwhile, a top UN official recently resigned calling what’s happening in Gaza a genocide, and the fact that you rush in to white wash that really tells us what an utter deplorable piece of human garbage you truly are.

runblack ,

Russia had already acted in bad faith and abandoned it’s contractual obligations with regard to giving security guarantees (!) to Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up the nuclear weapons on their soil after the fall of the soviet union. The Minsk negotiations took place AFTER Russia illegally annexed the Krim and moved troops into the Donbass to stage an insurrection.

Now you could say that some Western nations also didn’t honor their obligation to guarantee Ukraine’s sovereignty. But doing so would’ve meant open war with Russia so it’s partly understandable why they acted this way. And at least the West didn’t outright invade the country the pledged to protect like Russia did. It’s indefensible and you white washing these rogue and terrorist acts just shows what an utter deplorable piece of human garbage you truly are (did I word this correctly?)

An UN official having an opinion doesn’t make any claim about genocide in Gaza a fact btw.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Ukraine or the west never bothered to actually implement Minsk, and this is what even CNN was openly reporting was happening in 2014. Also, Ukraine never had nuclear weapons to give up, because these were Soviet nuclear weapons and Russia was officially recognized as the inheritor state to the Soviet Union.

And at least the West didn’t outright invade the country the pledged to protect like Russia did.

NATO and its individual members have been doing nothing but invading countries since USSR fell. Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria are just a few examples. In fact, US currently illegally occupies a larger portion of Syria than Russia is occupying of Ukraine. You’re either an utter ignoramus or a liar.

An UN official having an opinion doesn’t make any claim about genocide in Gaza a fact btw.

That’s just one example of the expert and global consensus on the subject. The fact that you keep trying to paint it as anything else says everything we need to know about you.

runblack ,

Nevertheless Ukraine had physical control over these nuclear weapons although it couldn’t have launched them. Ukraine also had claims to the black sea fleet and gave up on both in the years before the Budapest memorandum in which the above-mentioned security guarantees where given. In hindsight that was probably a mistake and the west should have used Russia’s weakness to break Crimea and the black sea fleet out of Russia’s hands for good to avoid future conflict and cripple Russia’s geopolitical ambitions which where always fueled by paranoia. But you can’t be that paranoid about losing sth. that you don’t have anymore.

Russia can’t be trusted to adhere to the contracts they sign. They will even invade and terrorise a country they themselves called “brothers” for a long time. It’s utterly shameful and all you have to say about this is “bUt nAtO DiD bAd tHiNgS!!1”.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Nevertheless Ukraine had physical control over these nuclear weapons although it couldn’t have launched them.

That’s a self-contradictory statement. The weapons were located on the territory of Ukraine, but Ukraine never had any legal possession of the weapons or the launch codes.

In hindsight that was probably a mistake and the west should have used Russia’s weakness to break Crimea and the black sea fleet out of Russia’s hands for good to avoid future conflict and cripple Russia’s geopolitical ambitions which where always fueled by paranoia.

More false narrative here. The conflict is a direct result of NATO expansion, as Stoltenberg himself admitted. This has nothing to do with Russia’s geopolitical ambitions, and it’s obviously not paranoia when it’s openly admitted. Stop lying.

Russia can’t be trusted to adhere to the contracts they sign. They will even invade and terrorise a country they themselves called “brothers” for a long time. It’s utterly shameful and all you have to say about this is “bUt nAtO DiD bAd tHiNgS!!1”.

Seems like plenty of countries have no problems making contracts with Russia. All the problems are invariably in relation to NATO and the west. It’s pretty clear that NATO who promised not to move one inch east and then broke that promise consistently for decades is the party that can’t be trusted.

I love how all you do here is just regurgitate nonsense you’ve memorized, but we now have ample evidence that all of these talking points are completely false. Either you’re lying intentionally here or you’re just a useful idiot for the empire.

runblack ,

It’s not contradictory but thanks for repeating my sentence with different wording.

Sovereign countries can choose their alliances freely. Of course it’s Russian paranoia to be fearful of the NATO expansion. NATO would not start WW3 by invading Russia. And NATO expansion is the direct consequence of Russian imperialism. Russia’s neighbors are afraid of Russia which has proven time and time again that it can and will use military force to subjugate it’s neighbors. We’ve seen it under the reign of the Tsar. We’ve seen it during soviet times and we’ve seen it in modern Russia with Chechenia, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine… You have to be willingly blind to overlook all these cases of military aggression out of paranoia and megalomania. Do you think the largest country on earth was created by peaceful negotiations and hugs? It’s absolutely ridiculous.

Your “ample evidence” is fabricated by the spin doctors in Moscow. Congratulations for drinking up that propaganda so willingly.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s not contradictory but thanks for repeating my sentence with different wording.

Absolutely is, using your galaxy brain logic every country occupied by US and hosting US bases owns them too right?

Sovereign countries can choose their alliances freely.

It’s true, unfortunately for the countries that fall under US control, their sovereignty goes out of the window. And in extreme cases such as Ukraine, US even overthrows their governments to put in compliant puppet regimes.

Of course it’s Russian paranoia to be fearful of the NATO expansion.

NATO has a demonstrated record of invading countries and has an openly hostile stance towards Russia. The fact that you keep calling this paranoia continues to expose your intellectual dishonesty.

Of course it’s Russian paranoia to be fearful of the NATO expansion.

See, there you go ignoring reality of NATO again because it doesn’t fit into your propaganda narrative.

Russia’s neighbors are afraid of Russia which has proven time and time again that it can and will use military force to subjugate it’s neighbors.

One problem with this narrative of yours is that the problem only seems to occur in countries that have been politically captured by US. All of Russia’s eastern neighbours seem to be getting along with Russia just fine.

You have to be willingly blind to overlook all these cases of military aggression out of paranoia and megalomania.

You have to be either a liar or an ignoramus to frame these cases the way you did.

Your “ample evidence” is fabricated by the spin doctors in Moscow. Congratulations for drinking up that propaganda so willingly.

Ah yes, spin doctors in Moscow such as Jens Stoltenberg and Loyd Austin. 🤡

There’s very little point continuing this discussion since all you’re capable of doing is regurgitating the script you’ve memorized.

Bye.

velox_vulnus , (edited )

To back your point, Russia’s concern over Ukraine is the same as India showing concern over Pakistan’s government. Yahya Khan came to power in Pakistan after a coup, backed by western powers to counter the influence of Soviet Union. Yahya Khan is known as the “butcher of Bengal”. Killed about three million people in East Bengal (Pakistan then, Bangladesh now) - men, mostly of Hindu faith were culled, while women were raped. This led to a growing refugee crisis in West Bengal (India). The US threatened to nuke India. Guess whose intervention stopped this genocide? The Soviet Union pressurized the US to back off, because of which India was able to take part in the Bengali revolution to liberate Bangladesh. This event is also how the slur “p*ki” came into existence - targeting brown people, especially Pakistani.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Also worth noting that Pakistan and India were created by the British when they got kicked out as effectively a scorched earth policy. The British used this same strategy in the Middle East in order to create unstable political entities that would be at each others throats.

el_bhm ,

What is Russia business in Ukraine’s overthrowing their government?

How is talking Israel not changing subjects?

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Try asking more intelligent questions so you don’t make a clown of yourself in public next time.

Habahnow ,

This doesn’t appear to be anything official, right? not certain how much a coalition publicly agreeing to this translates to actual funding for Ukraine. Would also be nice to see how this funding stacks vs the US, and vs other EU country contributions.

Ooops ,
@Ooops@kbin.social avatar

It's officially agreed upon by all coalition members, but the finalizing of 2024's budget where they officially introduce that change is only scheduled for next week.

Also just the original 4 billion € for next year is more than all other countries with the exception of US and UK have spend this whole war...

nonailsleft ,

That’s just military aid though. In all, the EU has almost spent €85 billion to support Ukrainians.

ec.europa.eu/…/Factsheet_EU_Solidarity_with_Ukrai…

For comparison, Russia is expected to have tripled their national military budget by 80 to €120 billion per year, or an increase of around 4% GDP. If the EU spends €60 billion /year on aid, that would mean around 0,4% of their GDP.

Sowhatever ,

Aka Russia has a GDP comparable to Italy

Habahnow ,

Bad ass for Germany and Ukraine. hope things go well.thanks for the context

XTornado , (edited )

Double it and give it to the next person.

EDIT: It was a joke about the famous stupid YouTube videos… Not saying they shouldn’t give it to Ukraïne…

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Next person?

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

asiatimes.com/…/why-is-the-west-moving-to-replace…

XTornado ,

Ignore the other reply. I was just making a stupid joke with the title about doubling it.

As that is the famous phrase from dumb YouTube videos were they donate money to people (if is even real) or after doing something and they offer then to keep it or double it and give it to the next person.

culpritus ,
@culpritus@hexbear.net avatar

What about that whole ‘Ukraine did Nordstream’ narrative? Guess Germany knows it’s a cover story.

sadreality ,

I heard Zelensky did himself while on vacation in the Baltic. No big deal, get a boat, get some snorkerls, boom!

All of this in NATO waters but he borrowed harry potters cloak, so it worked out.

nonailsleft ,

I guess some things are more important to them. I’m sure the drivers making the deliveries will be ordered to put on their saddest faces

Sowhatever ,

I don’t think the majority in Germany care about nord stream, even if it was intact, we stopped importing gas from Russia more than a year ago and no one plans to resume it anytime soon. It’s like slashing the tires on a car you sold for scrap last week.

Ooops ,
@Ooops@kbin.social avatar

The ones that care are relistic: Ukraine support against Russia right now makes sense geopolitical. Doesn't mean they won't remember that an ally was willing to conduct an active act of war against their infrastructure for their own stupid narratives - as if it wasn't actually unused already anyway. The fact that it was basically already discarded only means it's not of immidiate importance, but I'm quite sure Ukraine is aiming for more cooperation with Germany and the EU. And you can bet that there are poeple who will take that into account when evaluating how much Ukraine can be trusted.

It’s like slashing the tires on a car you sold for scrap last week.

More like you plan to sell it for scrap anyway and then your neighbour smashes the wind shields on purpose. It's not an actual loss concerning you, but the act itself will be remembered.

Evilphd666 ,
@Evilphd666@hexbear.net avatar

As if there wasn’t enough support for fascism in the world already. Digging your own grave Germany.

Kuori ,
@Kuori@hexbear.net avatar

germany just loves nazis emilie-shrug

Kzin ,

Supporting a country’s right to sovereignty is fascist?

No.

porcupine ,

“Suddenly the Fuhrer is fascist just because he supports the Vichy government’s right to sovereignty over France?”

Skua ,

Ahh yes I definitely remember when Germany created modern Ukraine by invading Russia in 2021.

porcupine ,

Believe it or not, history didn’t actually start in 2021, and Nazi collaborators didn’t all suddenly disappear in 1945 after enthusiastically carrying out the holocaust. Many German Nazis went right back to work at NATO, the West German government, and various US intelligence and military projects. The Ukrainian fascist organizations, Stepan Bandera’s Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists among them, that directly participated in the murder of over a million Jews, Poles, and communists operated continuously through the 2014 coup where they overthrew the democratically elected Ukrainian government with the backing of the United States. The coup government had been waging continuous open war on Russians living in Luhansk and Donetsk for 8 years before Russia came to their defense at the explicit request of their democratically elected governments.

Of course, you either already know this and don’t care, or you’re going to choose to ignore it to substitute with some cartoon fantasy about how there was peace in the world until Putin and his orcs arbitrarily decided to blacken the land with their unclean hordes and wipe out the good, clean, pure Men of the West for absolutely no reason and with no strategic objective beyond embodying the metaphysical concept of evil.

Skua ,

Many German Nazis went right back to work at NATO, the West German government, and various US intelligence and military projects.

Fun fact, they went to the Soviet Union too. Paperclip was very much mirrored by Osoaviakhim. So whatever point you're trying to make by bringing this up, I'm afraid it's very much a both sides thing. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make though. None of what you said makes the comparison I was responding to any less ridiculous. Hitler and his party, funnily enough, were not defined as fascists by protecting the sovereignty of Vichy France, not least because they didn't actually do it.

some cartoon fantasy about how there was peace in the world until Putin and his orcs arbitrarily decided to blacken the land with their unclean hordes and wipe out the good, clean, pure Men of the West for absolutely no reason and with no strategic objective beyond embodying the metaphysical concept of evil.

Thanks for at least confirming you're not operating in good faith. No, I think Putin has a variety of goals here that include securing a more defensible land route to the peninsula that Russia previously stole in 2014 and attempting to place a puppet (or at least friendly) regime in charge. That you're uncritically buying the justifications of a warmongering dictator is proof positive to me that you based your entire opinion here on "whatever the opposite of America is" as if it's a playground football game. I don't need to like how America acts to also not like how Russia acts.

porcupine ,

you based your entire opinion here on “whatever the opposite of America is”

Pure projection. I treat Russia as an ordinary liberal democratic state led by ordinary human people with rational self-interested motives rather than a cartoon villain with an army of mindless robots. My refusal to treat them as fundamentally evil, irrational, or inhuman doesn’t suggest that I think they’re “good”, selfless, or beyond criticism. It means I judge them by the same standards I’d use to judge any similar state with a similar political and economic system in similar circumstances.

I don’t need to like how America acts to also not like how Russia acts.

If you’re an American as I am, then your taxes funded the 2014 coup of Ukraine, the ongoing war on Donetsk and Luhansk, sabotaging the Minsk agreements, and prohibiting a negotiated end to the ongoing conflict. You’re not some unbiased neutral observer if you’re pretending to claim “both sides bad” while actively funding and voting to maintain the war and block every local attempt at peace. Absent continuous US intervention for over a decade, this war never happens.

I don’t care where Russia and Ukraine decide to put lines on a map between them. That’s exclusively up to the people that actually live there, and Euro-Americans like me aren’t entitled to an opinion about it. I care that my government stop using money generated by my community’s labor to murder the people that live there.

Skua ,

I treat Russia as an ordinary liberal democratic state led by ordinary human people with rational self-interested motives

It means I judge them by the same standards I’d use to judge any similar state with a similar political and economic system in similar circumstances.

Do you? So let's say the UK decided to funnel weapons in to Ireland to restart the Troubles and then sent tanks in to annex Donegal. Would you be similarly opposed to arming Ireland against a much larger and better-armed neighbour? After all it'd hugely expand the UK's exclusive economic zone at sea and significantly reduce the length of the border to defend against Ireland, it seems beneficial for Britain. I don't know about you, but I'd hope someone would back Ireland up in that situation.

If you’re an American as I am

I'm not

the 2014 coup of Ukraine

Good job Ukraine has had two elections since then huh

the ongoing war on Donetsk and Luhansk

It is interesting how so many of Russia's neighbours have pro-Russian separatist movements that always seem to have Russian backing

prohibiting a negotiated end to the ongoing conflict

What leverage do you think Ukraine's supporters actually have to prevent a peace? They'd stop supplying it weapons? Well you apparently want them to do that anyway. Presumably that's because you think Ukraine can negotiate peace without being armed enough to fight Russia. In which case these peace-blocking supporters have no leverage with which to block peace.

Of course they have even less leverage over Russia, which could end this war tomorrow by literally just fucking going home

You’re not some unbiased neutral observer

I didn't claim to be unbiased in the slightest. I am openly pro-Ukraine here. Because I'm generally against countries invading their neighbours and killing hundreds of thousands in order to annex territory, no matter how beneficial it might be to the invader.

Absent continuous US intervention for over a decade, this war never happens.

This is literally just American exceptionalism for people that don't like America. Other countries also do things. Russia has a track record of exactly this kind of thing.

runblack ,

I only agree that we shouldn’t view Russia or Russians as fundamentally evil of dehumanize them with language like “orcs”. But really… do you view Russia as a liberal democratic state? I’m sorry but are you out of your mind? And surely they are not led by ordinary people but by a class of oligarchs under the lead of the godfather of this mafia state.

Also you say you don’t care about border disputes between countries. You’re wrong that this is up to the people sharing this border. Legally that’s a very ignorant statement as there are very good reasons that the UN member countries are extremely reluctant to accept any changing of borders, especially not by force. International law puts emphasis on stability of borders. Also it makes border conflicts every countries’ business. So yes: Even as a Euro-American you’re very much entitled to have an opinion about it and legally it’s your countries’ duty to have a stance on it. No one is on the sidelines here.

gnuhaut ,

do you view Russia as a liberal democratic state? I’m sorry but are you out of your mind? And surely they are not led by ordinary people but by a class of oligarchs

All liberal “democratic” states are ruled by a class of oligarchs/capitalists, and not by ordinary people. Why are you citing evidence that’s perfectly compatible with a liberal “democracy” as if it was somehow at odds with it?

runblack ,

That might be the case in the US where capitalists have much more influence over election outcomes and politicians themselves are often part of dynasties that accumulated enormous wealth. This is however not comparable to many European countries. Sure, you have capitalists in all capitalist societies. But their direct influence on election results is much smaller and politicians are very often ordinary people and not obscenely rich or privileged by their ancestry.

A whole different aspect is that these ordinary people, once they came into power, lend their ears way too much to capitalist interests and the likes of lobbyists, often ignoring the problems and needs of ordinary people and focussing instead on catering to the industry.

The people could however not vote for these politicians if they realized that their policies thwart their own interests. If they fail to do so, it’s their own fault that the conditions for the majority are not improving. How can you fix the stupidity?

Ooops ,
@Ooops@kbin.social avatar

The Ukrainian fascist organizations, Stepan Bandera’s Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists among them, that directly participated in the murder of over a million Jews, Poles, and communists operated continuously through the 2014 coup where they overthrew the democratically elected Ukrainian government with the backing of the United States. The coup government had been waging continuous open war on Russians living in Luhansk and Donetsk for 8 years before Russia came to their defense at the explicit request of their democratically elected governments.

Does writing fiction pays well nowadays?

porcupine ,

Incredible how readily people like this will accept open holocaust denial. Bandera and the OUN weren’t quiet about their politics, their participation in pogroms, or their collaboration with Nazi Germany. We don’t need to speculate about their motives, they came out and said them quite freely:

“We are raising a militia that will assist in the extermination of Jews… I am of the opinion that the Jews should be annihilated by applying the German methods of extermination in Ukraine.”

“When it comes to the Polish question, this is not a military but a minority question. We will solve it as Hitler solved the Jewish question.”

“…wipe out Poles, Jews, professors, officers, leaders, and all established enemy elements of Ukraine and Germany.”

Hyperreality , (edited )

Russian propaganda.

Anti-semitism inspired by thinkers like Dugin and Prokhanov is popular in Russia.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/vladimir-putin-ukraine-attack-antisemitism-denazify

TLDR: Russian ethnic nationalists, don't see Jews as the primary victims of the holocaust, they think of Russian Christians as its true victims, and even go so far to argue that Jews orchestrated the holocaust and/or the war. That's why they don't see a contradiction in a country led by a Jew being nazi. IRC they also recently blamed Ukraine for instigating an anti-semitic riot in Dagestan. Not that it would matter, because propaganda allows people to engage in double-think.

As someone who's pretty left wing, it's very unfortunate because these fossils (and a younger generation who confuse contrarianism with critical thinking) have often infected left wing parties, ensuring they'll never have any influence on government and can be easily discredited for even their most sensible solutions. Communists supporting far right ultra-capitalists and often the exact same people who helped accelerate the catastrophic fall of the USSR.

zerfuffle ,

Fascism is not an anti-Jewish construct lol

Hyperreality ,

Correct. I meant to say nazi, as was mentioned in the comment above and the article. I have corrected my comment.

zerfuffle ,

Frankly, Nazism is also not an exclusively anti-Jewish construct. They were also strongly opposed to the racial identities of the Roma, Poles, and Russians (and killed millions of them during the Holocaust as well), as well as the political ideology of communists.

Nazism was anticommunist by ideology and antisemitic by policy. There was a strong (and misguided) belief at the time that Jews were responsible for the Russian communist revolution and that Jewish communists would come to spread communism. There was a strong (and misguided) belief at the time that Slavs (Russians, Poles, …) were communists by nature and would come to spread communism. There was also (misguided) belief at the time that the Roma would benefit from communism at the detriment of everyone else. The first concentration camps were used to imprison and execute communists.

Krause ,
@Krause@lemmygrad.ml avatar

and often the exact same people who helped accelerate the catastrophic fall of the USSR

You mean America and NATO? You know, the guys who actually did that…

Hyperreality , (edited )

No. I mean the robber baron oligarchs who got rich from corruption, stole national industries from ordinary Russians, ensured the USSR bled to death, parked vast sums of ill gotten gains in foreign accounts, and sold their country and countrymen to the highest bidder.

The 'elite' who now run Russia, claiming the fall of the USSR was a great tragedy and pretending to be its last defenders, while minimizing their role in its downfall from the safety of palaces, foreign residences and mansions which would make the Tsars blush at their vulgarity.

People like Putin, who goes on about how tragic it was that the Soviet Union fell, while wearing a million dollar watch and conveniently forgetting his ties to the oligarchs and Yeltsin.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Ukraine lost its sovereignty back in 2014 when a western backed right wing coup overthrew the legitimate democratically elected government. Now, a western sponsored regime is sending hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths in a proxy war US is using to try and weaken Russia. US politicians openly admit this fact now.

LicenseToChill ,

If you don’t like it, go join the storm z unit and fight for freedom

FuckyWucky ,

he doesn’t really need to do that. throwing money at a problem limited by real resources doesn’t solve shit. Russia has the advantage right now, even western media is admitting it.

Capitalism is funny. When something is limited by the lack of money (say high speed rail), they say there is no money because fiscal deficit limit etc etc even though there is labor and resources available to build the same. When something is limited by lack of resources (say soldiers), they pump unnecessary amounts of money which is bound to leak out.

ShimmeringKoi ,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

wojak-nooo

IjonTichy ,

I'm sure the parents of the hundreds of thousands of children that were abducted don't want them back.
I mean the Ukrainians from the occupied areas are enjoying their stay in Putin's Filtration camps where they are systematically tortured and raped. If they're lucky they don't just "disappear" into a mass grave, they'll get to enjoy their resettlement to a poor russian oblast. Reeducation camps are great! You'll get an "education" and don't even have to take on a student loan.
Ukrainians just don't appreciate all the things Putin has done for them. Systematically attacking their energy grid gave them a chance to experience christmas by candlelight. So romantic.
Why don't they just surrender? I guess Zelensky must be a Nazi.

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS!

huf ,

proudly standing tall on the bridge and saluting as the ship goes down…

knfrmity ,

But there’s no additional money available for infrastructure and social services within Germany. Something something Bundeshaushalt excuse and EU federal debt limit.

Metal_Zealot , (edited )
@Metal_Zealot@lemmy.ml avatar

Whew, watch out, I mentioned the same kind of sentiment on a post about the billions of dollars that America is sending for the war, and got lectured on “that’s not how government budgeting works and you know it blah blah blah”

knfrmity ,

It’s neat how it’s so easy for capitalist governments to authorize money for killing people, but when it comes to social spending there isn’t even a penny to spare.

The German finance minister has been gleeful up on his high horse preventing additional spending on important things Germans need, but approved a €100B special fund for the military in 2022 outside of the bounds of the federal budget.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that most of the US “aid” is actually loans. Even their food aid comes with real strong strings attached. The US owns Ukraine at this point. Although I’d don’t know how German aid spending or military spending in support of Israel in general is structured.

Metal_Zealot ,
@Metal_Zealot@lemmy.ml avatar

Investing in making people die over-seas, rather than the wellbeing of their own population that essentially pays their wage…
Yea, anyone would find that blatantly suspicious. Their goals are perfectly clear.

But people have drank so much USA Koolaid that they cant possibly imagine a country running any differently.

knfrmity ,

It’s not just Koolaid.

The relative domestic prosperity of the US is built upon that very overseas death and exploitation.

The people of the imperial core have some material interest in keeping that system of oppression going, even if they don’t realize it or think about it in those terms.

Metal_Zealot ,
@Metal_Zealot@lemmy.ml avatar

And those people are the most dangerous kinds of sociopaths.

knfrmity ,

I don’t think I can agree with that.

Of course the capitalist class generally know what they’re doing, but that’s not who I was talking about.

I meant that everyday working people have a material interest in more or less keeping the status quo. I’m not sure that you can define this group as sociopaths.

nonailsleft ,

If they’re unwilling to stop an aggressor at their doorstep for a fraction of their budget, having more infrastructure or social services won’t help them much

Metal_Zealot ,
@Metal_Zealot@lemmy.ml avatar

If it’s such a small fraction, why is it so impossible to use it for other means?

Name one country with a bigger military budget

nonailsleft , (edited )

Russia?

Metal_Zealot ,
@Metal_Zealot@lemmy.ml avatar

Famous for how well they treat their citizens

FuckyWucky ,

money doesn’t immediately create soldiers or weapons.

yogthos ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Thing is that people running the west are completely detached from material reality. If you look at their backgrounds, they all come from media, law, lobbying, and so on. They think they can just will things to happen if they want them hard enough. They don’t understand that you can’t just spin up factories and create an educated workforce to operate them out of thin air.

This leads to hilarious outcome like this one where EU leaders thought they could just dump money into shell production to increase it. Instead, the price for one artillery shell has gone up to 8,000 euros from 2,000 euros due to lack of supply and increased liquidity.

reuters.com/…/nato-urges-common-standards-curbs-p…

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