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job3rg ,

40% of Australia? I wasnt asked? (But I agree)

SirToxicAvenger ,

why? hasnt it been proven that the Aus govt doesnt care about what the population wants? besides 40% being 11% short of a majority?

Kumabear ,

Almost 40% of most democratic country’s populations would probably agree with most dumb and provocative ideas presented in a poll… especially now days with how partisan everything has become.

That said the Australia/ USA alliance is more important than any particular administration or head of government either our Australian government or the US government.

It’s an alliance of enormous mutual benefit that frankly is not going anywhere.

Australia is an enormous unsinkable aircraft carrier rich in resources, far enough from potential adversaries in the region to provide extremely strong defence in depth in the region. We use common platforms and tactics in battle, and have extensive integrated combat experience.

Perhaps even more important than any of that, it would be politically unacceptable I believe to our populations to turn our back on each other at this point, so many of us have personal friends and family in each other’s country.

We might occasionally have disagreements like any family does, and we might not like everything about each other but that’s how it goes with family. Any other country trying some shit I feel will find out fast that our alliance is stronger than it has ever been.

The US, UK and Australia have a bond forged in the fire of conflict and quenched in blood, anyone who wants to try and fuck with one should probably be ready for a fight with all… not to be overly dramatic.

Jackcooper ,

I appreciate this dude’s pride

ipkpjersi ,

Surprised it’s not 60% honestly.

rengoku2 ,

Australia, Japan, South Korea, PH and some others are all America’s attack dogs. What can they do without big brother? Lol.

BeautifulMind , (edited )
@BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

This is probably as good a place and time as any to reflect on how everything went as terribly wrong as it had to get in order for clowns like Trump to not be laughed out of politics.

Politics had to fall very far, very hard, to get to the point where enough people felt like voting at all was a waste of time- and probably the biggest single factor I can point out is when the Neoliberals took over the Democrats, American Labor lost its only champion, Antitrust law lost its only advocate, and both major parties in the USA essentially became handmaidens to corporate power. While this was happening, the GOP, long since a dark-money puppet organization, abandoned any pretense of doing anything in the public interest and became a full-throated howl of corruption and voter suppression and gerrymandering.

When both major parties in a duopoly system take turns tag-teaming the working class for their donors’ profit margins, you can expect that working class to radicalize, leftwards and rightwards, it’s what happens every time when a working class realizes it’s being objectively fucked. There was a reason Weimar Germany was so full of left-socialists and right-fascists, the middle had thoroughly failed and it turns out that when given the choice, status-quo-liberals will always choose fascism over socialism.

IntrepidIceIgloo ,

Biden is the most pro labor president in decades.

lateraltwo ,

Those are decades of being wildly off course not just in labor but in environment, regulation, infrastructure, and innovation.

BeautifulMind ,
@BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

This is true and very welcome, but TBH that’s a very low bar to clear and a long time coming. Up until the Biden admin started taking action, union protections have been steadily eroded since the Reagan admin. and with that, union membership went on a decades-long collapsing trend (and with it, so did labor’s buying power).

The point to my above post was that it had to get very dark for a candidate like Trump to get any oxygen whatsoever, and if there’s one way to drive despair in democracy, it’s to make people that grew up expecting to live middle-class lives into poor people.

UnspecificGravity ,

That, that’s the exact problem he is pointing out.

Aleric ,

You’re right, but I worry you’re wrong about why you’re right.

NoneSoVile ,

The most pro labor president in decades being an union buster just reinforces the point.

jasondj ,

Unions shouldn’t even be necessary. There are more voters than there are companies, by a very wide margin. The fact that enough people in the right places are able to be convinced to vote against improving their own conditions is really the problem.

wahming ,

Unions are stronger than they’ve been in decades. Stop falling for clickbait and look at the actual results.

woodenskewer , (edited )
@woodenskewer@lemmy.world avatar

Some unions are stronger. I’m in a union and I don’t even have paid sick time after we just signed our first contract post covid. It makes me feel like it’s kind of useless, but it’s still better than no union. It’s an extremely mediocre feeling.

wahming ,

The major changes and gains have all happened in the last few months. It’ll take some time for the effects to spread out.

joshhsoj1902 ,

Are they stronger due to changes by the current government? Or are they stronger because the economy is weaking and more and more people are rembering that forming/joining unions can help improve their working conditions?

wahming ,

prospect.org/…/2023-08-28-bidens-nlrb-brings-work…

Many of the positive changes can be traced to this.

joshhsoj1902 ,

I don’t disagree that that may help, it’s hard to draw a direct link between the two with the data I can see.

I guess we’ll have to wait for more data to come out.

The data I can find shows no improvement to union rates over Biden’s term statista.com/…/union-membership-rate-of-employees…

Cannacheques ,

Mmmhmm

set_secret ,

only 40% seems disturbingly low.

zik ,

In other news only 40.01% of Australians care about US politics.

set_secret ,

lolz

obinice ,
@obinice@lemmy.world avatar

The USA get one “we did something unthinkably stupid” free pass.

No way would they ever reelect that literal fascist after he all but tried to dismantle their institutions and install himself as a democratic dictator.

They’re not that stupid, and if they are? We should all cut ties, don’t want to be dragged down with the ship. But it won’t come to that.

Nelots , (edited )

I know at least one person who, after saying they don’t like Trump and agreeing that he has done several illegal things, said that they would rather have Trump as president than Biden again.

It’s certainly not impossible that he gets elected again.

Isoprenoid ,

No way would they ever reelect

They’re not that stupid

I’m getting these vibes from this comment.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Oczyk6nCw

Which terrifies me.

We should all cut ties, don’t want to be dragged down with the ship

Cutting ties with the most powerful country in the world? Not going to happen.

can ,

Honestly, how can anyone say he won’t be elected again? Have we learned nothing?

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

Well for one thing he’s not running against Hillary Clinton this time.

can ,

A good point but I still won’t rule out anything

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

Yeah, don’t get complacent, but don’t listen to the sky-is-falling doomsayers that spam every political thread either. The Republicans have been doing poorly in every election since 2018, and between the chaos in the House and the law finally catching up with Trump things aren’t looking good for them in 2024.

lolcatnip ,

We are that stupid.

AA5B ,

We really are. It’s still bad here

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

The USA get one “we did something unthinkably stupid” free pass.

They used up all those passes during the Bush administration.

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

they used up all those passes when they had to go to war over whether slavery is bad and should be banned

DragonTypeWyvern ,

Wait until you hear what country started slavery in America.

…

Well, it’s technically Spain, but you know.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Remember when we thought Bush was the low point in American history, and it couldn’t get more absurd than “Freedom Fries”? Good times.

w2tpmf ,

Don’t diminish what a shit bag Bush was.

At least Trump didn’t invade a country and kill tens of thousands of people under false pretenses.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

yet.

w2tpmf ,

Believe it or not…and what you and others can’t appear to accept… That orange man is in the past.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

“Trump can’t possibly get elected”

I think I’ve heard this one before…

fosforus ,

I bet some large amounts of money against his win the last time he was on, because I thought that if he gets a second term, everything gonna be completely fucked anyway so it won’t matter if I lose a few monies. That worked out fine.

I’m scared to do it the same way this time for some reason.

circuscritic , (edited )

You all need to remove your sense of morality from foreign policy calculations made by any government. It’s about power, always about power. You may personally view one nation’s values as better and therefore their ideas of power more moral, but still, it’s about power.

For Australia specifically, they are reliant on the US Naval power projection for their conception of Australian national security, which is why even their new Labor government is still moving ahead with AUKUS. It why Australia has always sent their troops to fight in America’s wars (post-WW2), rightly or wrongly.

Even after Vietnam was so bad for Australia that they revamped their entire military to become a “defensive” force and not an explicitly expeditionary one, they still fought in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those were all chips put into the American security pot, that they’re hoping to be able to call in when they need it.

Those reasons, and more, are why I’m confident that even with Trump, it would take something so drastic and catastrophic to change their calculations, that I don’t want to even try and imagine what that would be. Even if I’m sure Trump could manage to cause whatever catalyst that would be necessary. Still, it wouldn’t just be his reelection. It would be something so much worse.

orclev ,

While you’re correct in a geopolitical sense right now, there’s a strong reason to believe things could get a LOT worse. Trump is worrying close to going full fascist, and the parallels to the rise of Hitler are incredibly worrying. It could absolutely just be overreacting, and maybe it will all blow over, but re-election of Trump would show a very worrying pro-dictatorship pro-white christian nationalist bent in the US. It wouldn’t take much in such a situation to see the MAGA party execute a coup of the US government and head down the same path we’ve seen in the past. They’ve already tried it once after all (or twice if you count the storming the the capital and the attempt to certify fake electors as two separate occurrences), and only failed by the thinnest of margins.

In such a situation it’s easy to see a hypothetical militaristic MAGA party starting a war with China, or possibly even more worryingly with someone in Europe and Australia not wanting to get pulled into the mess that would start. It could very well be the start of WW3 and nobody sane wants to see that.

circuscritic , (edited )

When I say Trump is a unique threat, I’m speaking in terms of foreign policy and alliances.

I haven’t talked about, nor do I want to talk about, American domestic politics in this thread.

That said, what about my view of Trump as a unique threat in that context, gives you the impression that I don’t think he poses unique threats domestically?

Also, your points about the rise of a MAGA-Reich are pretty far outside the bounds of anything relating to the issue at hand: practical issues relating to Australia’s military alliance and a Trump reelection.

So…not really sure what your point is, at least not in relation to my comment.

orclev ,

You don’t think being in a military alliance with the US, that a fascist coup of the US would have bearing on whether Australia would want to remain in said alliance?

As for American domestic politics, when the discussion is explicitly about “in the event of Trump winning re-election” how is that not about American domestic politics? As a partner to a treaty with the US, particular one that would obligate Australia to get involved in wars started by the US, US domestic politics are very much relevant as those are going to be a strong driver for the kinds of conflicts Australia is liable to be dragged into.

Wanting to ditch the treaty just because Trump won might be an overreaction, but it also might not. Any other president in US history it almost assuredly would be. Prior to Jan. 6th even, it would be. But Trump has not only said on multiple occasions that he wants to be president for life, not only repeatedly admitted admiration for Kim Jong Un, Vladmir Putin, and other dictators, but then attempted his own coup however badly organized and executed it was. ALL countries with military alliances with the US are going to want to take a real hard look at if the benefits out weigh the risks of continuing that relationship if Trump is re-elected. For many that calculus might not change immediately, but you can bet they’re going to be watching 2028 like a fucking hawk assuming he wins in 2024, and if he does pull off the coup this time that’s going to be a real bad time for basically everybody, because the US becoming a dictatorship is a deeply deeply scary proposition.

circuscritic , (edited )

I don’t think fearcasting into a land of dozens, or hundreds, of interdependent worst case hypotheticals is relevant to a discussion of whether immediately upon Trump’s potential reelection, Australia will end its military alliance with America.

It’s much more of a creative writing exercise, so why stop there?

In my version, China has expanded it A2/AD strategy to include Australian waters. In fact, they’ve forward deployed 2 carrier battle groups 50 nautical miles from Australia’s northern coast.

And I could write pages more, worst case hypotheticals, to explain why in that world everything you’re saying is irrelevant to the American Australian alliance. But, again, it’s not relevant to the topic at hand,: it’s creative writing, not foreign policy.

FYI anyone who has a just below surface level understanding of China’s Three Island Chain Policy, A2/AD, and Wolf Warrior diplomacy, knows that my hypothetical is even slightly more likely then yours. NOT probable, but certainly plausible and requires a lot less to go wrong then your rise of the MAGA-Reich.

orclev ,

I’m not sure I’d say that’s more plausible, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s implausible, and it would definitely be something that anyone with a military treaty with China (or Australia for that matter) would want to take into consideration and have some plans for handling.

Right now, where the US is, is undecided. On the one side you’ve got essentially business as usual with the Democrats. On the other side you have two warring factions. There’s the traditional GOP who would be more or less also business as usual. On the other hand though you have the MAGA who seem to be hell bent on barreling into a christo-fascist dictatorship. Things could tip any direction at this point, there’s no way to really know. Everyone is hoping it goes pretty much any way but MAGA, although right now it’s looking like the MAGA crowd have just about managed to muzzle the traditional GOP.

The issue as you pointed out in your original post wouldn’t be Trump winning, it would be what comes after that. Nobody can see the future, so nobody can say for sure, but if you trust the things that Trump has actually said, the MAGA-Reich as you put it seems a highly probable future in that event. Even if Trump were to keel over dead the day after he was sworn in, the power the MAGA faction would have would still allow them to execute a coup, and in many ways that would be even worse. Trump is a bumbling moron, but he’s apparently an amazing figurehead and his cult would never allow anyone to replace him while he’s alive.

For Australia (not to mention NATO), a MAGA-Reich is basically a worst case apocalyptic scenario. Unlike with Nazi Germany I’m not sure short of complete nuclear annihilation if anyone would be able to stop the US. Depending on who they decided to attack first the rest of the world would be forced into making a call on how they want to play things, and there’s no real winning choices there. They could stand on the sidelines, but that would likely make them a future enemy. They could join in as the treaties demand, but that’s only going to embolden the US at that point. Lastly they could actively oppose the US, but that’s going to be one hell of a fight, and most countries outside of an alliance between say China and some other major power aren’t going to be able to go toe to toe there.

So yes, as I said previously, just saying “If Trump gets elected we should withdraw from the treaty” is probably premature and overreacting. However it’s in Australia’s best interest to have a plan ready to go in case the worst case happens with Trump, because a Trump win makes it more likely than not. Even a close Trump loss should probably cause US military partners to do some contingency planning.

BeautifulMind ,
@BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

They’ve already tried it once after all (or twice if you count the storming the the capital and the attempt to certify fake electors as two separate occurrences), and only failed by the thinnest of margins.

TBH the insane thing we’re doing today that we also did after the civil war is… allowing participants in said insurrection to govern instead of handling them the way other countries treat their traitors.

Cannacheques ,

The alien discard begins lol, we’ve become too annoying and they’ve decided to infect the people’s brains with war

Jk

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

So how long will people continue to think like that and by result let everything fall apart?

Without morality, life is meaningless.

circuscritic ,

I’m not saying that is how things should be, I’m talking about how they actually are.

That doesn’t mean I endorse, or support, the status quo. Just that I recognize what it is, and the implications that has on international relations.

pinkdrunkenelephants ,

I am aware. I mean to say that we need to stop just accepting things as they are and start changing them.

nobloat ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    BruceTwarzen ,

    Have you ever listened to the guy? In no other country on this planet would he be in charge of anything.

    nobloat ,

    Because of what he says or because of what he does though? Trump said all kind of crazy shit but I don’t see him as quantitatively different from what is happening now. The truth lies in what is done not what is said and the entire facade of word plays. My contention is that Biden is so much worse while actually knowing how to dress things up in a diplomatic and politically correct way. I’d rather have someone speak bullshit than have politically correct destruction of the middle east

    Captainvaqina ,

    Holy shit you’re really fucking stupid.

    ReluctantMuskrat ,

    There are so many answers to this but the most egregious of all is trying to overthrow the democratically elected government through any and all means. Shouldn’t be hard to understand.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    He's also under 90 felony indictments for fraud and espionage

    nobloat ,

    I am not defending Trump in any shape or form. I am saying there are more devious ways to authorianism happening right now

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    Oh yeah, we're really lucky he's an idiot in addition to being a boorish liar who only gets idiot lackies to work for him. He might have actually overthrown the government.

    nobloat ,

    What I am saying is that it’d be great if US people had 1 percent of this zeal when speaking against actual war crimes that Biden is condoning. But of course at least he mostly knows how to speak so let’s just all keep focusing on Trump for another year or so.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    What's the weather like in your reality?

    nobloat ,

    I don’t see any 24/07 media attacks on Biden in the same way I saw with Trump. As someone not in the USA I see Biden as having much more of a terrible effect than Trump ever did. Some criticism of Trump is warranted but it sometimes borders on some weird hysteria where it obscures everything else. He is used as a way to obscure many systematic issues that were always already there and took even a bad turn now with Biden. The focus on Trump even now shows that he plays this role of obscuring and diverting attention. Why do you think people keep talking about him even if he has basically no power now ?

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    I see Biden as having much more of a terrible effect than Trump ever did

    Now I know how Europeans feel when Americans talk about their politics. This is a completely unfounded and insane opinion.

    You know Trump said to inject bleach to cure COVID, right?

    nobloat ,

    Why did you assume I am a European though ? I am Arabic and I can assure you Biden is having more of a destabilizing effect on me than Trump ever did.

    I know what Trump said. I know he said dumb shit. That’s not my point. I am not saying Trump is good.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    Then you’re not paying enough attention

    nobloat ,

    Alright if you say so. I might be wrong about this. But this overzealous response I got here is interesting. I still think there’s a valid critique of Trump but there’s a hysterics of Trump that functions in a weird way. The obsession, even now, with his every move and every word is interesting and for me goes beyond the simple fact that he was a bad president. It’s as if he becomes the stand-in for a proper systematic critique

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    If someone tried to overthrow your government you’d pay attention to them, too

    Captainvaqina ,

    You’re really fucking out of touch with reality.

    nobloat ,

    Maybe just your reality ? I am Arabic and I can see the destabilization that’s occurring right in front of me due to the stupid blunders that Biden is doing. I have never felt that with Trump.

    EatATaco ,

    Perfect example of “muh both sides” being used to excuse terrible behavior by right-wingers. It’s almost universally the case where it is used.

    nobloat ,

    I am actually a leftist who wants a proper left and not some dressed up liberal shit that’s just a consumable authoritarianism.

    nobloat ,

    What I’m saying here has been said over and over again by leftist theorists who see the obsession with Trump as actually a mistake. It remains on the surface as this kind of politics of negativity (negativity in the philosophical sense )

    nobloat ,

    Ok that’s a fair point. But I see him used as a kind of scapegoat that masks what is happening now. No matter how fucked are US policies now some would day “at least it’s not Trump.” There was never a chance of him overthrowing anything tbh. The riot that happened are kind of a joke and they didn’t even know wtf to do once they got inside so they just took selfies. It’s a terrible look of course but I don’t think there was any great danger given what it would take to actually overthrow a government in the US.

    Birdie ,

    It was not just a riot. It was a (thankfully failed) insurrection. He wanted to delay the counting of the electoral votes, maybe never count them at all. And if that failed, he and his minions plotted to put fake electors in place to get the votes of blue states thrown out. He pressured the VP to ignore the constitution and declare him president via the fake electors. Had Mike Pence had a little less integrity, it would have worked.

    Trump’s loose lips that shared secret information with foreigners. We lost many operatives around the world following his spillage of state secrets.

    It’s the stealing and refusing to return top secret/compartmentalized documents. It’s 91 federal indictments related to all the above. It’s the fact that he’s under indictment in more than one state.

    If none of that is enough for you:

    He dismantled the US pandemic rapid response centers, sentencing many Americans to death when Covid hit. He downplayed the virus, attacked the surgeon general & mocked him, refused to wear a mask or take any precautions at all. And he led close to half the country with him, causing Covid to hit us much more severely than it could have. He suggested using bleach and light internally as a cure.

    He drew on a map with a sharpie, to show us all where we should make a hurricane hit.

    He’s a vindictive man who delayed/withheld aid to California after devastating wildfires because they had not voted for him. “If they don’t like me, I don’t like them.”

    He is a man who acts like a toddler with the vocabulary of a third grader…a truly stupid man with mob-like tendencies.

    He’s aligned himself with white supremacists.

    He’s bragged about seeing teenage girls nude in the miss teen america dressing room. He has bragged about kissing women without their permission, of grabbing them by the pussy, talked earnestly about how big his newborn daughter’s boobs would get, talked about how he’d date her if she wasn’t his daughter, cheated on all his wives, buried one of them on a golf course, failed to maintain the burial site…just to save a couple of tax dollars.

    He fleeced the elderly and uneducated of this country by giving them fake coins and dollars in exchange for donations. He stiffed contractors and lawyers by failing to pay them after they’ve earned their pay.

    He is, at best, a pig who lusts for power and if he gets it back, he’ll not willingly let go.

    So it’s not just a joke riot. Trump did actual damage and is continuing to do so today by holding the entire GOP by the balls.

    ReluctantMuskrat ,

    Scapegoat??? Maybe look up that term means. He’s the cause of much of the shit and continues to be. He spews hate and lies, so much that a large percentage of the population actually doubts the 2020 results.

    And what if just a few more people had went along with him? What if Pence threw out the votes? What if Barr went along with his story that the election was stolen? What if the rioters had gotten to the Representatives on Jan 6th? Might that gallows have been used? How many more would have went along with the lie just to avoid being caught up in violence?

    The world and the US have a lot of problems completely unrelated to Trump, but he made none of the problems better, many worse and created some of its worst unlike any other president in history.

    nobloat ,

    I know what scapegoating means. It has a specific sense in ideology critique (for example in Zizek’s Sublime object of Ideology). It means a figure in which a systematic issue is projected in order to mask the system itself. I am not saying Trump was good. I am saying the hysteric focus on him as this evil detached from the system, instead of a symptom and the culmination of it, is scapegoating. It doesn’t mean he is good. Even now when Biden condones war crimes we are hearing about Trump who has no power whatsoever. Trump is used to not confront what is there and what may give rise to other Trumps or maybe to some politically correct genocide suppoeter as a president.

    guyrocket ,
    @guyrocket@kbin.social avatar

    For a little while, I was afraid he might nuke some innocent country or start WW3. I was surprised at how light his had was on the wheel.

    I largely agree that he talk shit but does little. Not nothing, but he could have done much worse, IMHO. Mostly bark and a little bite.

    Bruno_Myers ,
    @Bruno_Myers@lemmy.world avatar

    personally, i think mocking disabled people, being bigoted, denying that a disease exists leading to thousands of preventable deaths, starting an attempted coup, and rape are all pretty bad. conservatives have different views on morality tho 🤷

    PatFussy ,

    I dont think you will get an answer. Here is a list of accomplishments and actions under Trump while in presidency. You can compare that to Biden.

    With this as the foundation, I can make a lengthy comment to refute what you said but I think it would be helpful if you took the time to read these and compare. Trump was just not good at his job.

    ZeroCool ,

    Almost 40% think Australia should dump US alliance if Donald Trump returns as president, poll finds

    And I wouldn’t hold it against them if they did. If we’re dumb enough to re-elect a fascist that already attempted one coup to remain in power then we should be dropped by all our allies. We would be a security risk at that point.

    circuscritic , (edited )

    America’s institutions are resilient, especially the military and security state components, even if the latter often vacillate between amoral and immoral.

    They’re vulnerable, and under heavy strain, but they aren’t so brittle that one man can destroy them singlehandedly.

    My point isn’t that we have nothing to fear from another Trump presidency, it’s that for most of America’s security partners, they don’t really have any other good alternatives at the moment. So for better, or worse, they’ll stick around for as long as it’s necessary for them, because America’s ability to project power transcends the oval office.

    If anyone could change their calculations, it’s Trump, but it would because of a situation he caused, or escalated, not just his reelection.

    ysjet ,

    A standard GOP play is on display here, readers: the classic “Oh it’s not that bad, nothing will really change, if you don’t vote it’ll be just fine.”

    Things have already changed. Our institutions are not just under strain, in some ways they’ve already fallen. Our supreme Court is thoroughly compromised. The house is under control by a vocal, crazy minority that just managed to wrest control of speaker of the house who is third in line to the president.

    We came incredibly close to a coup stealing an entire branch of the US government, and the second and third are already under minority zealot control.

    Vote. The US government is not so resilient that you can just ignore it. In fact, that is directly the plan and goal of the minority party trying to steal permanent control of the government- to trick you into apathy, that it doesn’t matter who is in charge because nothing will change

    Their past actions prove otherwise. Don’t allow yourself to be mislead. Vote. And don’t ignore people like the person above me trying to siren call others into a position of comfortable apathy. Call them out on their bullshit. Be polite, it may be inadvertant- perhaps they’ve not been affected. Or maybe they’re trying to talk about something else and are simply accidentally implying that things will just end up fine, like the poster above me. But in the end, regardless of the motivations, it is bullshit all the same. History is littered with the ghosts of once grand countries, and nobody thought they would fall either.

    circuscritic ,

    That’s not what I said, at all.

    Also, lol.

    Why don’t you read through my comment history and tell me again how I’m regurgitating standard GOP drivel.

    ysjet ,

    It’s not what you said, it’s what you implied with what you said.

    And yes, you do not lean GOP. But the entire point of that apathy is specifically to target non-GOP voters to keep them from voting- so it would be entirely expected to see that sort of accidental encouragement of apathy from a non-GOP poster, and all the more important to call it out because unlike someone who votes R, you would see the importance of shaking off that false apathy and voting.

    circuscritic ,

    “what you implied”

    Maybe you should take a breather, and then come back and reread my comments in this thread.

    You’re projecting your own meaning or intonations into my words because you’ve cast a moral judgement on who I am, or what my intent is. Not only were you wrong, but you keep inserting your morality into questions of foreign policy, just like I warned about in my main comment.

    In some threads, I’ll absolutely insert my political views and opinions, in this thread I have stuck to neutral analysis, mostly on the realities of geopolitics and foreign policy.

    More than once I have even said that Trump was a unique threat who could create the conditions that everyone here is chirping about. However, I also made clear that the act of his reelection alone would not be enough for countries like Australia to end their alliance with America.

    Now, because I think you mean well, I won’t spend the time pointing out the numerous logical fallacies you’ve used to attack me.

    So, if you disagree with anything I’ve actually said, please share. But please leave out your projections of what you think my secret nefarious intentions really are, or attacks based around logical fallacies.

    ysjet ,

    I think you may also want to consider a breather. I’m not attacking you, I’m not accusing you of nefarious intentions, and I’m not casting judgements.

    I’m pointing out that, regardless of if you’re advocating it or not, you are inadvertently supporting the idea that voter apathy is acceptable. You’re not doing it outright, and that’s not what you’re trying to do, I get that. You’re trying to neutrally state that regardless of what happens, it takes more than one presidential change to cause geopolitical changes on the scale Australia is threatening.

    Now, I actually disagree with that point that in general, I feel we’ve seen our allies distance themselves or even break off with us in Trump’s first (and hopefully only) presidency, but that’s not actually what we’re discussing here anyway and I don’t think either of us really care to dig into the weeds there, because it involves a scenario I think both of us hope won’t happen.

    My point is more that, as someone who cannot read minds, I can’t tell if that language is coming in as a complete coincidental accident, it’s something you accidentally picked up from GOP propaganda pointed directly at your demographic (which is most likely imo), or you’re intentionally spreading it (highly unlikely, given your post history). But regardless of what you’re intending to say, what you’re actually saying gives a feeling of ‘calm down, it’s not a big deal, trump winning isn’t a huge catastrophe to democracy, it’ll be fine, any damage he can cause will be limited.’

    And that happens to directly be a piece of GOP propaganda to encourage non-GOP voters not to vote, because voter suppression and low voter turnout helps the GOP.

    Again, I’m not saying you’re doing it intentionally, or even registering it. I’m not saying it’s some nefarious plan, and I’m not blaming you. I’m pointing out that there is unconscious bias in what you’re saying. Admittedly I was first trying to point out that bias to anyone reading, which probably looked combative to you, so my bad for that.

    paddirn ,

    As an American, I’d like to dump America if Trump becomes president again.

    Asafum ,

    We don’t even need to do anything, he’ll do all the work for us when he gets reelected…

    kautau ,

    Well based on their comment of as an American, they’ll have to have dark skin or something and then Trump’s “great america” will take it’s toll

    orclev ,

    Eventually. Their current boogyman is trans people followed by LGBTQ+ in general. They’ll get around to non-white and non-christian people eventually though.

    SlikPikker ,

    Loyal and racially pure Germans burned and died just as well as the dissidents.

    theodewere ,
    @theodewere@kbin.social avatar

    you have my permission to get together with the Japs and ze Germans and invade.. if the Brits can get their shit together, they're welcome to join in..

    Lev_Astov ,
    @Lev_Astov@lemmy.world avatar

    Nothing would solidify a sitting president’s hold on power more than an invasion. Do you want a third term of Trump? Because that’s the only way that could happen

    FMT99 ,

    I mean, understandable but still a terrible idea. More than ever Australia, Europe, the US need each other.

    Maeve ,

    For what?

    circuscritic , (edited )

    China, or rather, the Pacific.

    FMT99 ,

    I mean we can just hand over the keys to the BRICS, maybe they’ll do a better job than we did.

    circuscritic , (edited )

    BRIC(S) is a Goldman-Sachs white paper, turned PR initiative.

    It’s not common market, much less anything resembling a security architecture.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think a Global South alliance or economic union/federation would be an amazing advancement for EVERY worker in the world, not just those outside the first world.

    Unfortunately, BRICS isn’t that, and can never be that. But maybe, if we’re lucky, it can be the League of Nations style doomed prototype for a more successful and effective organization to be born out of its ashes. Though, ideally without requiring another world war.

    PugJesus ,
    @PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

    BRICS is Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa.

    Of those, only Brazil and South Africa are not currently engaged in ethnic cleansing.

    Is that really what we want to gamble on?

    FMT99 ,

    No that was kind of my point :)

    PugJesus ,
    @PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

    Oh, sorry, lol.

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