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BeatTakeshi ,
@BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world avatar

Still searching their own final solution

fbmac ,
@fbmac@lemmy.fbmac.net avatar

I’d like a single atheist state where Palestine and Israeli have equal rights but religion is strictly outlawed. But I wouldn’t kill people to achieve that, so I think my endgame isn’t gonna happen

great_site_not ,

In your ideal atheist state, what would the punishment be for religion?

Everythingispenguins ,

Attending a satanic church service maybe

fbmac ,
@fbmac@lemmy.fbmac.net avatar

fraud charges for anyone claiming it to be non fiction and censorship similar to what porn gets for religious media

yetAnotherUser ,

I prefer a 2 state solution, with Jerusalem being moved to the center of the Pacific Ocean.

Everythingispenguins ,

Hey don’t drop that shit on the Islanders. They are busy dealing with sinking Atolls.

Patches ,

Evacuate it and then dump a bunch of nuclear waste there. That way every visitor can go see God in Jerusalem.

Spzi ,

But I wouldn’t kill people to achieve that, so I think my endgame isn’t gonna happen

Yes, since both other sides have extremists which aren’t happy with any compromise. On both sides, they are in the government. On both sides, they are willing to kill for it, even seeing it as their religious duty. So if you’re unwilling to kill and prefer another scenario, you will most definitely not get it and maybe get killed in the process. The region might have reached it’s nash equilibrium in constant war.

mightyfoolish ,

Palestine is a secular state (at least Fatah of the West bank is, remember Hamas is a reaction to Isreal’s oppression). Turns out a theological state is fine if it is the “correct religion”.

febra ,

The plan: more settlements, more oppression, more land grabs.

filister ,

They do have a plan, but it doesn’t include finding a peaceful solution and a path to long standing peace.

Risk ,

Yup, the Israeli State does not give a single shit about innocent Palestinians. They’re quite happy to continue oppressing them, because when the oppressed ‘suddenly’ become radicalised and fight back it gives the Israeli State an excellent excuse to take more land and displace more Palestinians.

Israel is showing the world it’s not trying to be an apartheid state, but a genocidal one.

scarabic ,

Anyone who thinks Israelis differentiate between Palestinians and Hamas terrorists is dreaming. It’s one people against another. If anything the Israelis lump all Palestinians together AND the Arabs in the region.

teichflamme ,

So same as the rest of the region? There’s no party with a peaceful plan here, including Palestine.

Everythingispenguins ,

Well if everyone is dead then there is peace right /s

phthalocyanin ,
@phthalocyanin@lemmy.world avatar

"negative peace "

jordanlund ,
@jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

FYI - Getting lots of reports on comments in this thread. We are currently reviewing and re-writing the rules in the Sidebar so I’m choosing to not remove any of them YET. That’s not to say it won’t happen LATER.

I don’t want to put anyone in a position where something would be removed under the old rules, but not the new rules or vice versa.

Be aware, things are changing. Hopefully in the next 24 hours.

Until then, Wheaton’s Rule: Don’t be a dick.

Also, Downvote is not an “I disagree button”, it’s a “this comment doesn’t contribute to the discussion, we are all dumber for having heard it, I award you no points button”.

downpunxx ,
@downpunxx@kbin.social avatar

sure there is, a Gaza with no Hamas, and hopefully no PIJ, and no anyone that stands in the way of achieving that. time has come. they were warned.

FMT99 ,

Yeah just like we killed all the terrorists in Afghanistan. I’m sure more bombs will solve this situation once and for all.

DieguiTux8623 ,

With the same outcome after 20 years.

dontcarebear ,
@dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

Removing Hamas is removing a symptom. A tumor.

You need to heal the body after that. Give Gaza hope, order, a reason to cooperate.

If you just destroy Hamas, then purple-jewish-haters party will take it’s place and do the same.

ShroOmeric ,

deleted_by_moderator

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    luthis ,

    We all know what the endgame is.

    JoeHill ,

    Please…enlighten us

    zik ,

    The Gaza strip ceases to exist. “Settlers” move in and it becomes part of Israel. Millions of Palestinians die in refugee camps.

    MxM111 ,

    So, for execution of this plan they gave to sector Gaza autonomy and removed (forcefully) Jewish settlements from there. Yeah. Totally makes sense.

    JoeHill ,

    Taken by force? It was taken by force 56 years ago. Since then the Palestinian population in Gaza has increased about 7-fold.

    And there were already Israeli settlements there. They were dismantled in 2005 and the settlers forcibly removed by Sharon’s government.

    xmunk ,

    Yea, but Sharon was a lot more sane than bibi… it seems like that asshole has done everything in their power to roll those changes back.

    JoeHill ,

    Are we talking about the same Sharon that Palestinians hold responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacre? And the same Sharon whose visit to Al-Aqsa was rightly or wrongly said to be the proximate cause of the Second Intifada (and which ultimately allowed him to come to power)? The same Sharon who built the wall between the West Bank beyond the Green Line effectively annexing large chunks of land in all but name? That Sharon? Just want to make sure that we’re talking about the same guy

    xmunk ,

    Yup, much more sane than Netanyahu.

    BraveSirZaphod ,
    @BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social avatar

    Bibi is almost certainly gone the moment the military operations are over. Something like 90% of Israelis hold him responsible for the attacks and want him out.

    He'll be around through the unity government while military operations are conducted, but there's essentially no chance he has any part of what comes after.

    DanL4 ,

    If it depends on him resigning it won’t happen. He is in a survivalist state. He doesn’t care about the outcome of the war as long as he remains in power. He doesn’t care what happens. The only thing he is working on in a time of war is his image and blaming figures from decades ago for this situation.

    dx1 ,

    It was under Israeli occupation following the Six-Day War until the PNA was given a kind of on-paper authority over it according to the Oslo Accords (which, along with the EUBAM agreements and such, basically gave Israel full siege power over Gaza on all sides). It’s a whopping 141 square miles, I don’t know what pointing to a population increase is supposed to demonstrate.

    The situation before October 7th was that of a clear division between Palestinian population inside the Gaza strip and Israeli population to the north and east. Now:

    Israeli minister without portfolio Gideon Sa’ar told Channel 12 News that Gaza “must be smaller at the end of the war” and that “there should be an area that is classified as a security zone where whoever enters is intercepted.” He added: “We must make the end of our campaign clear to everyone around us. Whoever starts a war against Israel must lose territory.”[260][261]

    In the context of several past instances where Israel has, in order: (a) claimed a territory citing military purposes (b) settlements were built on the military area © claimed the area as its own land because it has Israeli settlements on it - we have absolutely no reason to expect otherwise, particularly given that figures in the Israeli government and media *have been explicitly calling for this:

    ohchr.org/…/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-eth…

    She noted that Israeli public officials have openly advocated for another Nakba, the term for the events of 1947-1949 when over 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and lands during the hostilities that led to the establishment of the State of Israel. The Naksa, which led to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967, displaced 350,000 Palestinians.

    …alarabiya.net/…/Israeli-Knesset-member-calls-for…

    Israeli member of Knesset Ariel Kallner on Sunday called for a second ‘Nakba’ to take place in Gaza amid ongoing armed conflict between Hamas and the Israeli army.

    “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join! their Nakba, because like then in 1948, the alternative is clear,” Kallner wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter.

    zik , (edited )

    So skeptical. And then a few hours later the US gives its blessing for exactly that: lemmy.ml/post/6687184 .

    And the Israeli defense chief says “troops will soon see Gaza ‘from inside’”

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    Let me explain Benjamin Netanyahu.

    He is a Machiavellian criminal (I repeat this definition because if you read “the Prince” then you know exactly how he will act):

    He has 0 issues with behading children. However, if he gets to stay in power for another 4 years, he will let Hamas behead the whole country.

    The war crime of ethnically cleansing Gaza will harm him politically and empower his psycho right winged pals.

    It is not in his favor, so it will not happen.

    P.S. fucker should rot in prison.

    luthis ,

    Other commenters have added good answers, basically the strong feeling everywhere is this won’t stop until Hamas is utterly wiped out, and by that time Gaza will be too and it’s inhabitants either destroyed or refugeed out.

    hightrix ,

    Annihilation.

    ubermeisters ,
    @ubermeisters@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

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    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    Even Israel doesn't have a blank check to recreate the holocaust in broad daylight. A ground invasion to stamp out terror is cleaner in that sense.

    Note: I could be very, very wrong, but the ruling Israeli far right has been pretty clear about what they wanna do to Gaza.

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    You are correct in that the right wing, as a formal and major part of this current administration, is pushing for genocide and ethnic cleansing. Hands down. No doubt.

    But most of the air force is center/left. A lot of the ground soliders are center/left. They were protesting against th government 13 days ago.

    It is not a professional army, it is a citizens army There are quotes of soliders, officers and generals in reserves saying “We will do what needs to be done, but we won’t commit the war crimes you’re asking.” Almost verbatim.

    Which also garnered facist answers that they are traitors and deserve a traitor’s fate etc…

    And even now, during the war, a citizen who’s family was abducted and went to protest the government was struck by regime cultists.

    It is not black and white, not good and evil, despite what the crime minister is saying.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    There are quotes of soliders, officers and generals in reserves saying “We will do what needs to be done, but we won’t commit the war crimes you’re asking.” Almost verbatim.

    I mean they then proceeded to bomb Palestinians who were supposed to be in safe locations or fleeing along safe routes. Not saying the IDF is fall of war criminals that wanna drink the blood of Palestinian children, but "we won't commit the war crimes you're asking" is a little too late.

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    If you’ve talking about the hospital, the IDF provided proof from intelligence footage and al-jazeera showing it was a misfire, and it hit a parking lot, not the actual hospital.

    Otherwise, what IDF is doing is bombing where they know there are Hamas terrorists, and they don’t notify the Palestinian civilians to get out of the way.

    I don’t know if that’s a war crime, especially since the IDF told Palestinian civilians to go south, but human shields is an issue too. A moral one.

    Or maybe I’m misinformed and you know something I don’t, or we disagree on something.

    Please elaborate.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    No I'm not talking about that one. Remember a week or so ago when they designated evacuation spots that would be safe from airstrikes then airstriked those locations? Remember when they bombed trucks full of people evacuating south, as ordered, along designated safe routes? According to my understanding, these are blatant war crimes.

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    Didn’t find that specific truck reference, but I did find. BBC reference from yesterday that people in Khan Younis were bombed after being told to head south of Wadi Gaza. They were bombed because of Hamas presence.

    I don’t know if attacking terrorists that hold human hostages as shields is a war crime, but it sure as shit sounds awful. Especially since the civilians can’t always tell they’re being actual human shields.

    What a nightmare.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    They were bombed because of Hamas presence.

    Why were they ordered to head to a location that has Hamas presence?

    Also, another similar incident:

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-area-bombed-after-warning-to-move

    If both these locations had Hamas presence then that's a massive failure on the part of the IDF.

    Also articles about the bombed refugee trucks.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/israel-hamas-war-live-updates-rcna120252

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    Massive bias aside, the guardian was at least decent enough to get the Israeli response. However, the IDF isn’t providing a direct answer, which raises suspicion.

    Regardless, letting civilians know they should head south and then attacking the designated safe routes is definitely a problem, unless they can prove they didn’t.

    Problem is, if the IDF would legally ratify each attack, they’ll kill nothing but civilians.

    It’s a shitty situation either way. War in Gaza can’t possibly be clean.

    Luckily for Hamas, they don’t have such rules to abide by.

    MonsterHighStan ,
    @MonsterHighStan@kbin.social avatar

    According to this interview with someone from the Human Rights Watch, it is considered a war crime (if I understand it correctly):

    The laws of war require armies to avoid deliberately targeting civilians, and also to avoid attacks that by their nature cannot distinguish between civilians and combatants. In particular, in Gaza, because it’s such a densely populated urban area, when you fire explosive weapons on a massive scale, it’s predictable that civilians will die. It’s predictable that children will die.

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    My source is ihl-databasrs.icrc.org and www.icrc.org (international red cross).

    And naturally some wikipedia to help, but I only quote from the red cross. Feel free to check the links.

    Hamas is in clear violation of all the articles of the 3rd common article of the Geneva convention. Every single section. However, the law doesn’t apply since they never agreed to be bound by them or sign the accord.

    I did not see any article that states that if your enemy isn’t bound by the Geneva convention, then it means you aren’t too.

    The 1987 additional to the Geneva protocol at 1977 also states in article 3 section 1 that “nothing in this protocol shall be invoked for the purpose of affecting the sovereignty of a state or the responsibility of the government, by all legitimate means, to maintain or re-establish law and order in the state or to defend the national unity and territorial integrity of the state.”

    This would explain the repeating political statement: “Israel has the right to defend itself”, as it matches this section.

    Also, during the original signing of the Geneva article 3, France and Britain inserted section C paragraph 1 “Scope of the application of common article”.

    And this states verbatim - "Common article 3 does not provide a detailed definition of its scope of application, nor does it contain a list of criteria for identifying the situations in which it is meant to apply. It merely stipulates that ‘[I]n the cas of armed conflict not of an international character occuring in the territory of one of the high contracting parties’, certain provisions must be respected by the parties of the conflict.

    So this is quite the rabbit hole in terms of the law.

    I will read further into this, but it seems that saying the city is dense makes them guilty is a claim for court, and a guess, not a ruling. It doesn’t also clearly let’s Israel off the hook, as definitions can sway the lettering.

    Also, maybe I’m missing some addendums. Don’t know, I’m not a lawyer.

    Laws aside though, this is still an awful situation.

    anteaters ,

    Because people love throwing around the world “genocide” when it’s about Israel doing anything they don’t like. It’s not a genocide.

    dontcarebear ,
    @dontcarebear@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

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    anteaters ,

    Very much agree.

    jordanlund ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    FTA:

    “Israel has called up a record 360,000 reservists”

    Gaza has 365 square kilometers. 141 square miles.

    www.britannica.com/summary/Gaza-Strip

    That seems like an awful lot of soldiers to square meters.

    JoeHill ,

    You do realize that this is likely to become a 3 front war. Lebanon in the north. And Bibi has to cowtow to his settler base in the West Bank.

    jordanlund ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    I could definitely see that, Israel has not been shy about invading Southern Lebanon in the past.

    …wikipedia.org/…/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_L…

    xmunk ,

    And one of those fronts will effectively be with iran. You seriously don’t want to fuck with the resources they have to throw into war.

    Risk ,

    I wonder whether Iran can actually spare an outright war. There is clearly a lot of anti-government energy flowing in Iran, and that won’t have been stamped out by their crackdown on it.

    I wonder whether most everyday Iranians would support a war with Israel.

    Granted, it’s not likely Iran gets directly involved - they’ll just drive their Hezbollah prop.

    NoneOfUrBusiness ,

    I wonder whether Iran can actually spare an outright war. There is clearly a lot of anti-government energy flowing in Iran, and that won’t have been stamped out by their crackdown on it.

    I guess it depends on how much the "helping our fellow Muslims" stuff works. I know it would in Egypt at least.

    xmunk ,

    Iran wouldn’t need to radically shift their budget… the revolutionary guard gets buckets of oil money and maintains a constant high state of readiness.

    fosforus ,

    Yeah, Russia’s initial push against all of Ukraine was reportedly about 100-200k soldiers.

    jordanlund ,
    @jordanlund@lemmy.world avatar

    I think that was a little bit different in that a) everyone (the West included!) expected Ukraine to just roll over, and b) a lot of those troops weren’t told they were actually going to war, they thought it was just a training mission… the poor bastards.

    theguardian.com/…/russian-soldiers-ukraine-anger-…

    Israeli troops aren’t under any illusion about what they’re doing.

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    DUBAI/WASHINGTON, Oct 18 (Reuters) - Israel is vowing to wipe out Hamas in a relentless onslaught on the Gaza Strip but has no obvious endgame in sight, with no clear plan for how to govern the ravaged Palestinian enclave even if it triumphs on the battlefield.

    Codenamed “Operation Swords of Iron”, the military campaign will be unmatched in its ferocity and unlike anything Israel has carried out in Gaza in the past, according to eight regional and Western officials with knowledge of the conflict who declined to be named due to the sensitivity of the matter.

    The immediate Israeli strategy, said three regional officials familiar with discussions between the U.S. and Middle Eastern leaders, is to destroy Gaza’s infrastructure, even at the cost of high civilian casualties, push the enclave’s people towards the Egyptian border and go after Hamas by blowing up the labyrinth of underground tunnels the group has built to conduct its operations.

    Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said Biden’s visit would have given him a chance to press Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu to think through issues such as the proportional use of force and the longer-term plans for Gaza before any invasion.

    Two regional military experts told Reuters that Hamas’ armed wing, the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades, has mobilised for an invasion, setting up anti-tank mines and booby-trapped explosive devices to ambush troops.

    Hundreds of Palestinians have died in the West Bank since the start of the year in repeated clashes with Israeli soldiers and settlers, and there is widespread concern that the violence might engulf the territory as nearby Gaza burns.

    The original article contains 1,314 words, the summary contains 273 words. Saved 79%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

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