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theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Khelif was assigned female at birth, has lived her entire life as a woman, has a passport that lists her as a woman from a country that has no trans rights.

If this had happened in the 1904 St Louis Olympics, when women’s boxing was first an Olympic sport, nobody would have batted an eyelid. This is just right wing moral panic.

scarabic ,

Was she born intersex before being assigned female? I’m sorry but I haven’t followed all the details of the gender test and how she failed it. Do you know?

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

I guess I’m not a creep enough to inquire about her private parts when she was a newborn.

scarabic ,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Bluefalcon ,

    I love everyone citing the International Boxing Association (IBA), “they tested for XY chromosomes.” They did a testosterone test and the IBA President concluded she had XY due to elevated testosterone.

    Caster Semenya went through the same stuff but was a woman. Her case is very different but the same. A woman that has elevated testosterone but a medical condition that gives her XY chromosomes.

    Instead people should be asking who Umar Kremlev. A Russian that lost his last election but decided “nope, that doesn’t count” and still holds office. Damn, who does that sound like? Yes, he has ties to the Kremlin. Can, someone remind me on their stance with alternative lifestyles?

    Elevated testosterone in females is not uncommon. Just like everything else, it is complicated.

    web.archive.org/web/…/running-body-semenya.html

    reuters.com/…/iba-extraordinary-congress-votes-ag…

    veganpizza69 ,
    @veganpizza69@lemmy.world avatar

    Obviously, these duel competitions should only be allowed between identical twins. Anything less is unfair and should be halted and shut down.

    nondescripthandle ,

    If testosterone is a PED and it doesn’t matter if the athlete is cis or not, then there should be a hard limit for both male and female athletes to ensure fairness. If too much testosterone is only a problem for women then clearly it’s a sexist attempt to police women’s bodies.

    Every human body produces some amount of testosterone, either too much is an unfair advantage or it isn’t.

    BleatingZombie ,

    Are you proposing mandatory testosterone blockers for all Olympic athletes?

    nondescripthandle ,

    I’m suggesting disqualifying women for abnormal testosterone levels without doing the same for men makes no logical sense. Either it’s a PED or it isn’t and if you’re going to limit a naturally occurring hormone of just one sex, then it’s not really about the hormone.

    BleatingZombie ,

    I see now! I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying

    Atomic ,

    But they do, do the same for men. They test men’s testosterone. It’s part of the anti-doping protocol.

    If someone is found with abnormal levels, it can be indicative of doping, and doping by increasing testosterone is quite common. Most people know it by the name of “steroids”

    itslilith ,
    @itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Maybe we should just stop taking professional sports so seriously

    People will always have genetically advantages, be it height, testosterone, bone density or a myriad of other factors. Trying to control all is impossible, and no matter what limits you set, you’ll unfairly exclude some people

    Jamil ,

    No basketball player should be above 5.5 feet tall. There should be a hard limit on height. But only in women’s basketball.

    TheBat ,
    @TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

    There should be separate basketball leagues as per height.

    5’6" - 6’

    5’ - 5’5"

    4’8" - 5’

    Atomic ,

    They do check testosterone levels for men in every single sport that checks for doping. Abnormal levels is indicative of doping.

    pH3ra ,
    @pH3ra@lemmy.ml avatar

    Sports where physical strenght and constitution are more important than technique will always be dominated by people with a better genetic pool.
    I’m without any doubt “genetically inferior” when compared to Usain Bolt: even if I started training when I was 3 years old, I couldn’t even imagine to get nowhere near his level because nature decided to screw up my knees while he was born a fucking sprinting machine.
    Sorry darling, suck it up and take the L or change sport.

    fcuks ,

    Well how did she lose her other olympic and IBB matches if her genetics are always the same then???

    pH3ra ,
    @pH3ra@lemmy.ml avatar

    I’m not talking about that, my whataboutistic friend, I’m talking about this specific episode that’s being used as a media case to rage-bait people.

    fcuks ,

    Sports where physical strenght and constitution are more important than technique will always be dominated by people with a better genetic pool.

    You’re literally talking about whole sports in your first sentence, nothing specific about that…

    pH3ra ,
    @pH3ra@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yeah I’m sorry, sometimes in sake of brevity you skip some premises thinking an average minded person would be able to put it together on their own

    fcuks ,

    I don’t know why you’re jumping to insults when trying to have a discussion about this, as that’s what Lemmy is for surely, discussions??

    Why are you making it about solely her genetics saying that she’ll win based on these alone? They’ve been the same when she’s lost several matches as I was pointing out…

    You’re doing her a massive disservice by dismissing the amount of hours, effort, blood, sweat and tears she’s likely dedicated to training, and being rude to this “average minded person” for pointing that out.

    You do you though

    pH3ra ,
    @pH3ra@lemmy.ml avatar

    So you are able to understand the specific content of a generic comment!
    Good for you pal! Now go and read my first comment once again because I can tell that you still didn’t understand the point I was trying to make back then.

    fcuks ,

    The arrogance shown to assume I don’t understand because I disagree with you haaa!

    nondescripthandle ,

    Then we should set testosterone limits for male competitors too if it’s always unfair. Or is it only okay when we police women’s bodies?

    pH3ra ,
    @pH3ra@lemmy.ml avatar

    It’s always going to be unfair when the game is going to be “how strong am I?” because it will always boil down to genetics. If your body is more suited than mine to shoot punches you are going to win, regardless of sex, gender, ethnicity or age: basically the Olympics are a “Biggest Pumpkin Competition” but with a better advertising campaign.

    So all of this rhetoric of “should we test athletes for testosterone” is fucking dumb on both sides.
    Give them fucking chainsaws and let them massacre each other for my entertainment.

    BigBrainBrett2517 ,

    Jesus, help us. These people’s reading comprehension is below acceptable.

    pH3ra ,
    @pH3ra@lemmy.ml avatar

    That plus the fact that everyone entered this thread with an opinion that is limited to one aspect of the matter, which is fine by the way until you try to derail the conversation towards that specific opinion so that you can pull it out totally out of context like a priest’s cock

    BigBrainBrett2517 ,

    Good point. Agreed.

    Ha! Using it. The Priest’s cock, that is 😏

    PeroBasta ,

    Let’s remember that all the athletes that have records in running where found positive to doping. Then Bolt arrives and beat all their times one after the other but he is not using. I bet in 10 years he comes out as positive as well

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m just waiting for demands for the 4k vagina video so everyone can judge for themselves whether or not she’s a real woman with a real vagina.

    kemsat ,

    She’s not a regular woman, she’s a freak of a woman. Most those athletes are freaks amongst regular people, she’s just not a freak in the same way most of them are.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Holy fuck… do you call people with dwarfism or people with missing arms freaks too? Like they belong in a circus?

    GladiusB ,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Not even remotely appropriate.

    GladiusB ,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh no. People don’t have humor. Blah blah blah

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    You make all the jokes you want. Just not ones which disparage people with disabilities, are bigoted, racist, etc.

    This isn’t a comedy club in the 90s. We don’t need your “edgy” humor.

    GladiusB ,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Some people do! It’s just the Internet. Chill. You aren’t saving humanity by being a mod. You’re the equivalent of a hall monitor.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re welcome to think so. You are not welcome to violate our community rules. Namely, rule 6:

    Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.

    And I don’t care if you don’t think it is offensive. People with that disability sure as fuck do.

    Since you would like to make a bigger deal out of this than you should have, I’ll also tell you that if you violate any of our other rules, you will have to find another place to post for a while.

    GladiusB ,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh no. I’m being told by the hall monitor that I can’t play on the Internet anymore. You really intimidated me and taught me a lesson. Thanks for that extra helping of something I won’t ever give a shit about.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    You are now violating rule 5:

    Keep it civil. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

    But I’m feeling magnanimous and will give you one more chance.

    GladiusB ,
    @GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh you. I’m sure the grand Lemmy will give you an extra atta boy at the hearing event.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Ok then. Bye.

    mriormro ,
    @mriormro@lemmy.world avatar

    You’re fucking annoying, bud

    rainynight65 ,

    Michael Phelps is taller than the average pro swimmer, has an unusually long upper body and short lower body, longer arms and bigger feet than a regular person of his size would have, all this giving him more pulling power and less drag in the water. His muscles produce less lactic acid than the average athlete, shortening his recovery time.

    Nobody has ever called him a freak. His success is attributed to willpower and skill.

    tiefling ,

    Most of these arguments literally just narrow down to misogyny

    Jamil ,

    Misogyny with a side of racism.

    Corkyskog ,

    Nobody has ever called him a freak

    I beg to differ, there were so many jokes about him.

    rainynight65 ,

    Let me rephrase.

    Nobody has ever called him a freak in earnest, and nobody has ever scrutinised him the way they are scrutinising every single woman who dares to be successful while not conforming to an arbitrary and ever-narrowing standard of womanhood.

    Numenor ,

    I have called him a freak.

    rainynight65 ,

    Good for you. Would you like a medal?

    I_Fart_Glitter ,

    Yes but Michael Phelps took them all 😞

    Klear ,

    Damn that freak!

    joeynotjoe , (edited )
    @joeynotjoe@lemmy.world avatar

    Boxing in general is stupid as hell. I feel empathy for both parties here.

    Edit: I fee really bad for Imane. She is getting dragged by conservative media, and it’s absolute bullshit.

    I only meant to say I feel empathy that the Italian woman got her ass handed to her and had to give up so quickly. That’s it. That’s nothing compared to what Imane is going through.

    li10 ,

    What’s the problem with boxing?

    Are you talking about the sport itself, or all the BS that goes on around it?

    joeynotjoe ,
    @joeynotjoe@lemmy.world avatar

    I’m just not into the violence of it. I’m also a hypocrite who still watches football, so don’t mind me.

    SwordInStone ,

    you mean american football?

    joeynotjoe ,
    @joeynotjoe@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, my apologies for not clarifying.

    febra ,

    She got her ass handed over to her and turned instantly into a crybaby. No one in that ring was trans. Get over it or don’t sign up for boxing

    crystalmerchant ,

    The article says Khelif was tested last year and returned XY chromosomes (male) not XX chromosomes (female)

    Krzd ,
    @Krzd@lemmy.world avatar

    Chromosomes are not a definitive indicator for sex.

    febra ,

    Womp womp

    itslilith ,
    @itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    from what I’ve read, the russian IBA tested her for testosterone levels, not chromosomes, and then claimed she had XY without releasing any evidence. Not that it really matters anyways.

    As per Wikipedia:

    Following Khelif’s victory over Italy’s Angela Carini during the 2024 Olympic Games, rumours surfaced on social media about her gender. These were fuelled by Khelif’s disqualification from the 2023 Women’s World Boxing Championships organised by the Russian-led International Boxing Association (IBA) for unspecified reasons. There is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone.[2] The International Olympic Committee (IOC) and its Paris Boxing Unit stated Khelif was eligible to compete in the Olympics, and criticized the IBA’s previous disqualification.[3]

    Lizardking27 ,

    No, it doesn’t.

    TranscendentalEmpire ,

    (IBA) president, Umar Kremlev, saying that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded”.

    This incredibly misleading, and I’m guessing since the IBA is currently just a mouth piece for the incredibly homophobic Kremlin… I’m guessing intentionally so.

    Just because you have a xy chromosomes, doesn’t mean you’re automatically dictated to be sexed as a male. You could very well have a XXY pairing like women with certain types of gonadal dysgenesis, something like Turner’s syndrome.

    Gender is without a doubt a human construct, but so is the false dichotomy of male/female that most people outside of the medical field view sex.

    The intersex population is much larger than most people presume, and the labels in which we use to classify the majority of the population don’t really serve a medical purpose for them.

    There is no standardization in medicine for Sexual assignment at birth. Sexual assignment in medicine is utilized to categorize treatment needs that are commonly specific to the patient’s sex. Intersex patients will require individual assessments, as even patients with the same diagnosis can have wildly different needs.

    Tudsamfa ,

    It does say that, but she probably does have the usual XX.

    The IBA based their decision to exclude her on 2 tests one in 22 and one in 23, never officially said which tests they were to protect their participants privacy, and then the president of the IBA just said they were chromosome tests.

    If it was a chromosome test, they would have disqualified her in 22, those don’t change in a year. Hell, they would have disqualified her in 2023 before she entered the semi finales.

    It seems more likely that she was fine in both tests. I say that because the Olympic people aren’t fools, if her Chromosomes were a problem, they wouldn’t have allowed her to participate.

    Now, why don’t the Olympics just trust the IBA? High corruption made them remove the IBA’s Olympic status. If you then look at who Khelif beat in 2023 before her disqualification, you might then be Russian a conclusion.

    massive_bereavement ,

    IMO there should be two categories:

    • one with the average testosterone content that most women have, but open to anyone that is eligible.
    • And free.
    superkret ,

    Why does there need to be a global rule for all sports? Just let all the sports associates decide for themselves, case by case. It’s not a big issue and doesn’t deserve international news coverage.

    Atin ,

    Current testosterone levels are not the only part of it that needs to be looked at. We as a species have sexual dimorphism. Sure it isn’t to the same effect as some other animals such as many insects, but it is enough to make it unfair for a woman to compete against somebody who went through puberty as a male. Especially in combat sports.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    but it is enough to make it unfair for a woman to compete against somebody who went through puberty as a male.

    We have no idea if that is true about Khelif.

    I swear. More people need to know about Swyer Syndrome.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis

    Khelif may not have even known she had a Y chromosome until that test. She may have just thought she had very “masculine” features for a woman.

    kemsat ,

    It’s irrelevant whether she knew or not. Once it is known, she needs to be moved to a different league/class.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    So even though she might have been born with a vagina, one that essentially works like any biologically female vagina, you think she should be forced to fight men because she has a Y chromosome?

    Are there any other times where people should be genetically tested and given something different to do if it turns out they have Swyer Syndrome?

    kemsat ,

    Yes. Also, I don’t care about her vagina. That’s not the point. The point is that having a Y chromosome likely means her body has experienced heightened testosterone her whole life, which makes her much more physically capable than a normal woman whose body would not have experienced heightened testosterone levels. That basically means it’s unsafe for her more normal competitors to get in the ring against her, same as it would be to put her up against Hafthor Björnsson.

    All Olympic athletes should be genetically tested for these things, so they can compete in the right class/heat/category.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes.

    Cool. Thanks for letting me know you don’t belong here. We do not allow ableist bigotry.

    13esq ,

    Would you reconsider your rule when the champion of every single weight division in your “one with the average testosterone content that most women have, but open to anyone that is eligible” category is a mtf trans person?

    I personally don’t think it should be controversial to give people born as women some of their own spaces, especially when it simply comes down to a question of fairness.

    mysticpickle ,

    https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/1f282d87-a10b-4207-8963-6a0493b58b55.gif

    Lizardking27 ,

    Lmao imagine being an uneducated shitty enough person to post this unironically.

    Grow a brain.

    0laura ,
    @0laura@lemmy.world avatar

    if you actually read and watched the statements from the IOC you would know that khelif was not disqualified by the IBA for having high testosterone (they never did a testosterone test) and instead decided to disqualify her first and then look for a reason and accused her of having XY chromosomes, which I personally don’t believe.

    youtu.be/https://youtube.com/live/QxeIRI2Qcag?t=1…

    olympics.com/…/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-s…

    unicef.org/…/top-female-boxer-imane-khelif-dreams…

    nytimes.com/…/boxer-quits-gender-angela-carini-im…

    FatherGascown ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    zazo ,

    XY Gonadal Dysgenesis is a thing - or is her having high T levels fundamentally unfair? in which case why isn’t there a T limit for male athletes as well? while we’re at it why isn’t there a hight limit? or for that matter why doesn’t Phelps have all his medals revoked if he has multiple genetic “unfair” advantages compared to most swimmers? why is genetic variation seen as “unfair” in women but “fair” in men?

    sazey ,

    (not specifically related to this piece of news, whereby the Algerian contestant has apparently lived all her life as a woman etc etc)

    why is genetic variation seen as “unfair” in women but “fair” in men?

    There are unquantifiable variations but then there is the variation between men and women. There is a night and day of difference between the two.

    in which case why isn’t there a T limit for male athletes as well?

    Combat sports generally have strictly defined weight categories to flatten out huge swings in testosterone (ie muscle mass + bone density). Throw a chimpanzee into the welterweight category for example and it will fuck shit up all day long, so to me it makes sense to have testosterone categories in women’s sports but not in men’s because for women the ceiling is much much higher.

    There is a reason roided body builders don’t compete in natural leagues while we all stand around like programmed momos pretending they are the exact same thing.

    TheBigBrother ,

    There should be a trans league.

    bdonvr ,

    She isn’t trans

    TheBigBrother ,

    Yeah, I know it now, do you believe it’s some kind of cheating this thing?

    MilitantAtheist ,

    It’s an easy fix, make another division.

    • Male
    • Female
    • Open
    Krzd ,
    @Krzd@lemmy.world avatar

    Interesting idea, however Imane Khelif was born a woman and is still a woman.

    itslilith ,
    @itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    This is not at all relevant, she’s a cis woman

    Lizardking27 ,

    Okay but who would fight in the open category? Everyone mentioned here is a cis woman.

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