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febra ,

So Israel is just being a pariah of the world as usual. Nothing new.

As of now Slovenia, Spain, Norway, Ireland, Malta, Trinidad and Tobago have announced they will soon start recognizing the state of Palestine. That brings the number of countries that recognize the state of Palestine to around 150 countries out of 193 countries in the UN.

Not only that but around four fifths of the world population lives in these countries. So an overwhelming majority both in the UN and on a population scale recognize them.

With that being said, let’s go Israel. Be more of a pariah than you already are. Close yourself off from all these countries. Shoot yourself in the foot.

cosmicrookie ,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

Sounding more and more like Rusia

tourist ,
@tourist@lemmy.world avatar

Nations who recognise Palestine:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6c2059e2-5ebf-433e-be94-8d91f3729ec8.png

I miss this kind of confidence I got from cocaine

diffusive ,

Wait! Vatican recognized Palestine?!?

Either way if what Spain said is true and Europe becomes green as well, it would be pretty much US, Australia and Israel to not recognize Palestine

dependencyinjection ,

The UK too. We love to be on the wrong side of history.

corsicanguppy ,

Canada does the glance_away.jpg

MrMakabar ,

Unlikely. Germany most likely is not going to recognice Palestine for a long time.

photonic_sorcerer ,

Well. As soon as Palestine becomes an actual state.

lurch ,

European legislation supersedes German legislation. Germany has to fall in line and implement what Europe tells it.

MrMakabar ,

Foreign policy needs consensus. So the EU can not force Germany to do anything in terms of foreign policy.

Aceticon ,

Germany depends on the votes of Spain and Ireland at the EU for a lot of things that Germany finds important.

If a measure at the EU level has enough consensus and Germany vetoes it, they’ll see other members be a lot more likelly to use veto power on things that mostly matter for Germany.

Since Germany are in the curious position of being the EU member that benefits the most from the Free Market (they’re the biggest exporter and their biggest market by far is the rest of the EU) and the Euro (their currency now is a lot weaker and hence they’re more competitive because it’s a currency union with far weaker countries, than it was back in the deutsche mark times), they can’t even threathen to leave the EU as that would a bit like threatenning almost everybody else with a good time whilst they shot themselves on both feet.

Still, the most likely outcome is going to be nothing at all getting done at EU level, either way, if only because that’s always the most likely outcome.

MrMakabar ,

If only Germany would not be willing to recognice Palestine, then this might happen, but that is not the case. France and Italy the two next most powerfull countries do not recognice Palestine either.

Germany is usually fairly happy with the current state of the EU. The things Germany wants to change are usually also supported by Spain and that means blackmail is harder. The only exaption to that is finance. However Spain is not going to let billions go to waste to have Palestine recogniced. That is just more of a symbol, rather then massivly important.

Also Germany leaving the EU would cause some massive problems in other EU countries as well. They would hardly be cheering for it.

Aceticon ,

It’s unclear were exactly France is on this, though I agree that Italy under the current far-right government is unlikelly to recognize Palestine.

I’m mostly thinking about the Financial stuff: none of the so called PIIGS forgot how they and their populations were sacrificed to save German banks and a “Let’s fuck Germany” posture wouldn’t at all be a hard sell in those countries plus I very much doubt that generally not doing what’s good for Germany would be bad for those countries since they’re almost opposite to Germany in the forms by which their economies can benefit from the Euro - they would actually grow more in an Euro without Germany.

I’m also not so sure that a German exit would end up being bad for the rest of the EU, especially for the less export oriented and more peripheral countries like Spain - certainly an Euro minus Germany would actually be better for everybody else but Germany (as Germany pushes up the value of the Euro, making other Euro nations less competitive and partly explaining their anemic growth and lack of funds to restructure their Economies, which is the other big reason for their anemic growth) though granted it depends on how important are exports to Germany in each economy, though on non-Euro EU matters you might be right. In summary and as I said before, almost nobody else but Germany benefits from Germany’s Euro membership and the kind of nations that would be least affected by a Deutschexit are the ones who have no borders with Germany, a group that includes Spain, Ireland and Norway (though the latter is not an EU member and hence has no vote or veto so doesn’t really apply for the scenario we are discussing).

MrMakabar ,

Spain has grown faster then Germany for most of the last decade(besides 2020). Out of PIIGS Portugal and Ireland also have done pretty well. Greece got hit hard and Italys economy has problems since the 90s(aka not a EU/Euro problem).

Also Norway is not an EU member.

Aceticon , (edited )

The figure is quite different if you look at the growth in nominal per-capita terms rather than in percentage of initial value as any shitty-shit growth in a poor nation looks a lot more in percentage terms.

Further, I’m living in Portugal and I can tell you that at least in quality of life terms the country has been going backwards for at least a decade, even if mathematically, thanks to a housing bubble and understating housing inflation, the GDP figures produced show “Growth” which is actually just housing inflation that has not been discounted from the Nominal GDP.

The only one of the PIIGS anywhere near catching up to Germany is the Republic Of Ireland and even those have fishy numbers because of how many international companies declare the revenue of their entire EU operations in Ireland because of just how much Ireland facilitates tax evasion - a lot of the money being “made in Ireland” is neither “made in Ireland” nor does it even pass by Ireland and it being counted as Irish GDP is just an accounting artifact.

But yeah, Norway is not an EU member, as I myself pointed out in the very post you replied to.

barsoap ,

Please don’t tell me you’re blaming the Portuguese housing bubble on Germany. There’s, like, laws and regulations you can enact to stop the fuckery.

Aceticon , (edited )

Portugal is were it is because of a lot more reasons than the housing bubble, though I agree with you that the only element of Germany’s blame for housing bubbles in the Eurozone in general (so, not just in Portugal) was way back in 2009/10 when they pushed ultra-low interest rates as the “solution” for the consequences of the 2008 Crash because it was what was better for the likes of Deutsche Bank and the Landesbanken which were overexposed to subprime and soverign debt.

(I actually have a recent comment were I list the IMHO various reasons for the housing bubbles in Europe one by one and that one is just one of them and most definitelly include in that list local problems like refusal to regulate AirBnBs and even the incentivising of foreign investment in the local realestate market)

Those “temporary” ultra-low interest rates lasted for over a decade and pushed up mortgages, both via the pathway of making the same monthly mortgage payment allow for a much larger mortgage (which together with other problems in the housing market innevitably pushed house prices up to the point were people were paying the same montly payments as before with much larger interest rates) and via the pathway of causing a “race up the yield ladder” which moved a lot of money from things like Treasuries (which even ended up with negative yields) into things like realestate and stocks, increasing Demand in those things and thus pushing prices up.

Further, and again to help the likes of Deutsche Bank, Germany also pushed for continued light-touch-regulation on Financial Institutions and unconditional rescue of affect banks with no requirement for reform (most notably no requirement to divest from and close the investment banking operations of retail banks), which in turn led to the progressive swamping of housed markets in places where most people were owner-occupiers with much more wealthy realestate investors, further pushing up prices.

This is without even going into the stuff which is not housing related and were Germany also put pressure to do all the wrong things for peripheral economies, such as the imposition of Austerity in countries like Greece and Portugal, something which even Christine Lagarde, former head of the IMF and president of the ECB later admitted was the wrong thing to do.

Let’s not excuse the German politicians whose prime priority was the interest of Deutsche Bank, just as we shouldn’t excuse the past and current incompetent moron politicians in places like my homeland.

MrMakabar ,

Correct on a per capita bases Portugal has been growing much much faster then Germany. The simple truth it that Germany is not benefiting from austerity either. What should happen is that the German government massively increases spending. This would turn Germany from a net exporter, to a net importer. That allows the PIIGS to export products to Germany paying down the debt, but it also stimulates the economy. Germany profits from the increased spending as well.

The simple truth is that German life expectancy is declining since a couple of years(being below Spain, Italy and Portugal btw). Median wealth of Italy, Spain and Portugal is higher then that of Germany, which is only slightly higher then that of Greece. Real wages in Germany have gone up by 3.8% over the last decade(not annually but the entire decade).

The only ones who really profit from this austerity are the super rich. Other then that it is as bad a policy for Germany as it is for Italy, Portugal, Spain or Greece.

Aceticon ,

The life expectancy is falling all over Europe (welcome to Neoliberalism were only the life expectancy of the rich goes up and deregulation cause all sorts of problem for people who can’t afford prime products and living in their own mansion outside of the polution of cities).

As I said, in absolute money terms Portugal isn’t actually growing all that much because it’s coming from a much lower base: 2.3% on a country with an average anual wage of €20k a year even if perfectly distributed (which that growth is definitelly not since Portugal is pretty bad in terms of income inequality) are a great whooping extra €430 a year (notice that I’m mixing nominal salaries with real GDP growth, which is an approximation and why I didn’t mention salary growth losses due to inflation), which would at best see Portugal catch up with the €45k average anual wage in Germany, if the last did not grow at all and in the absence of further economic crashes (I explain this last point further below), by the end of the century.

The only reason why Portuguese growth in money terms still exceeded that of Germany in 2023 is because that year the German economy actually shrank, otherwise a 2% GDP growth in Portugal is in absolute terms the same amount as a less than 1% GDP growth in Germany, because the German GDP per-capita is more than twice that of Portugal, so Portugal wil never catch up to Germany unless it has more than twice the German growth in percentage terms.

Since Portugal’s Economy is heavilly dependent on volatile industries like Tourism and hence prone to deep dives whenever there is a Crash which wipe out a significant proportion of previous growth, it’s highly unlikelly that the country can sustain a growth of more than twice the German on in percentage terms for the next 60 years.

I do agree that Germany itself has to change what it is doing, even just for Germany’s sake.

Personally I think that the choices of Mutti back in the post 2008 Crash were not the ones best for Germany and Germans, but the ones best for a certain section of the German Elites, namelly financeers and large Asset owners (i.e. the very rich). It just so happens that given the influence of Germany (and that Germany wasn’t the only country choosing to save the Asset owners on the backs of the rest) her choices hurt a lot more than just the Germans, with some people - namelly the Greek - being very purposefully sacrificed even more than the common German person all for the good of Deutsche Bank and large german investors.

barsoap ,

their currency now is a lot weaker and hence they’re more competitive because it’s a currency union with far weaker countries, than it was back in the deutsche mark times

That myth again. The Euro is a much harder currency than the DM ever was. Most of the trouble states had with the Euro was not due to Germany but them not being accustomed to having a hard currency in the first place, being used to relying on monetary fuckery to steer the economy.

As to recognising Palestine: Not a EU prerogative, simple as that. And I highly doubt states would pressure Germany over this, it’d be a lot of political capital spent on practically zero impact – up to negative impact as Germany has a much better chance convincing Israel to recognise Palestine with its current stance, and there’s simply no country with deeper diplomatic ties to Israel than Germany. If anyone can convince them, it’s Germany.

Tryptaminev ,

Germany, Settler Colonialism and Fascism, name a more iconic trio.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

UK/France/Spain, Settler Colonialism, and Fascism. Germany literally learned it from watching them do it first.

PriorityMotif ,
@PriorityMotif@lemmy.world avatar

Too busy trying to sort their recycling and make up words for very specific situations. Historically they haven’t cared about genocide.

OutlierBlue ,

And Canada. We love following the US into its mistakes.

bradorsomething ,

It’s easier to say you’re sorry all the time when you agree with the US.

Tryptaminev ,

Obligatory note for all the “Christians should support Israel” crowd. The Israeli minister of Security said, that Christians should be spit on. When Christians want to pray for Easter in the Church of the holy sepulcher, Israeli security forces are also harassing and attacking them. Israel is not only an ethnostate, it is also founded on religious and race supremacy, where white european/american Jews are on the top of the hierarchy and anyone else will face discrimination.

Fedizen ,

Hold on, the 1900s british colony Israel has the same name as the kingdom from the bible and is therefore the same because jews or something.

Anyway, we need it to fulfill prophecies. /s

APassenger ,

Gotta have that third temple.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Just gotta find a red heffer that we can burn alive.

echodot ,

I always knew Antarctica couldn’t be trusted.

Viking_Hippie ,

Those penguins are up to something. You can’t trust someone who goes swimming in formal wear…

mPony ,

SLIDE!

Viking_Hippie ,

So pissed off at my government for deliberately making us the only Scandinavian country not to 🤬

undergroundoverground ,

Have you tried having the worlds only super power ready to liberate the everlasting shit out of anyone who upsets you?

riodoro1 ,

*Super power in electing dumb tv stars as their leader

UnderpantsWeevil , (edited )
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

the worlds only super power

Is the US even really worth that term anymore? Seems like we’ve lost quite a bit of gas since the 90s.

undergroundoverground ,

Definitely true, its just the arms companies milking your country dry want more money. So, they’ll convince you all that you’re no longer a super power.

barsoap ,

Militarily speaking the US is still a force to be reckoned with, they can bitch-slap any smaller non-nuclear country anywhere in the world on a moment’s notice.

Soft power wise, though, the US is in freefall. And without that soft power the hard power can’t be readily employed because blowback. I’d say in the future the US is going to do a lot more riding on the EU’s soft power than they’re currently comfortable admitting. That is, they’re not going to invade random countries to bolster election results at home, they’re going to knock on Brussel’s door and ask “hey anything need peacekeeping right now that would be popular with the world?”, then portray it as their own initiative.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Militarily speaking the US is still a force to be reckoned with

Sure. But so are France, Russia, India, and Pakistan. A lot of the US influence comes from its extensive base network. And yet… America can’t keep the Suez open in the face of some Yemeni rebels with access to a Radio Shack. They’ve bowed out in Afghanistan and Iraq. They’re roughly holding the line in Ukraine by sheer weight of expenditure. Logistically, all very impressive. But its playing ten different chess games at once. Only impressive if you’re not losing them.

I’d say in the future the US is going to do a lot more riding on the EU’s soft power than they’re currently comfortable admitting.

I’m not even sure what the EU looks like in another thirty years. The UK is in steep decline, France is in full sell-out mode, Germany and Italy are making kissy-faces at their fascist wings. The Eastern European states never recovered from the break up of the USSR. Scandinavia is a gas station.

Europe’s chips seem to be stacking up in the Middle East, under a handful of petty dictatorships and theocracies. But the real future power players are looking more and more like the member states of the South Pacific - India, China, Pakistan, Indonesia. Enormous populations, high tech industries, rapidly expanding navies, some of the last pristine wilderness anywhere on earth… These look like the countries which will be leading the world into back end of the 21st century.

Maggoty ,

We could stop the Yemenis. But it would take far more manpower and material than anyone in the US is willing to commit right now. We could go to the fortress village concept; and just generally go full scale COIN. It would stop the attacks. It would also cost a trillion dollars over a couple years and probably turn into a transitional government and peacekeeping mission.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

We could stop the Yemenis

The same way we stopped the Iraqis, the Afghanis, and the Vietnamese, sure.

We could go to the fortress village concept; and just generally go full scale COIN.

Trying to teach another generation of 19 year olds broken Arabic before throwing them into a literal mine field?

We could try it. But I can’t imagine it would boost enlistment rates

Maggoty ,

Enlistment? Shit at the rate we’re getting into fights we’re going to need conscription anyways. Let’s just get it over with. /s

The only reason we have shortages is because they cannibalized an entire generation. Turns out when you keep fighting you go right through the pool of eligible volunteers.

And hey I didn’t say we’d leave a stable state behind. Just that we’d stop the attacks.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

And hey I didn’t say we’d leave a stable state behind. Just that we’d stop the attacks.

I mean, it helps to understand the political situation in Yemen up to this point. Its already functionally been in and out of civil war for the last decade. The Houthis currently lobbing bombs into the Gulf of Adan are the same insurgents that Saudi-backed Yemen officials have been fighting with since the Obama Era.

Then you’ve got the other side of the Gulf, where pirate communities across Somalia were already a perpetual nuisance for major shipping. They’ve been raising the insurance rates on this boats well before the Houthis started playing Battleship with merchant vessels. This isn’t a new problem for the US Navy. Its simply a numbers game. Too many ships to protect and too many potential pirating crews to combat.

The cost-efficient solution appears to be to send everyone around the Horn of Africa again, rather than trying your luck in the Canal.

bradorsomething ,

Much as russia just spent their material legacy capacity in ukraine, the us spent their economic legacy capacity in Iraq/Afghanistan. We are driving around a fancy army we spent too much on, and the payments are hurting.

Maggoty ,

We still spend too much on it. We’re following Germany’s fallacy from World War 2 of trying to have all of our equipment be the bestest ever instead of good enough. Accounting for inflation last time I looked we’re spending twice what we were when we invaded Iraq.

barsoap ,

There’s no “from WWII” about that we’re still gold-plating equipment.

Maggoty ,

That’s… That’s my point. We won world war 2 with equipment that was great strategically and logistically, but was merely good enough tactically. We’ve switched positions. We need to realize that a million man military can’t be gold plated.

barsoap ,

I mean Germany is still gold-plating things. Also a million men when did you decide to cut the size of your forces in half.

Maggoty ,

I wasn’t counting all of the reserves because we accept that they get old equipment.

Maggoty ,

I could go for a few decades of that. We need some humble pie.

Squizzy ,

Lol spineless whores, just throw a dollar on the ground and whichever shit heel running that superpower will be on their knees chasing it.

Fuck the genocide backing yanks.

ChillPenguin ,

Cries in US

Fuck this country…

Th4tGuyII ,
@Th4tGuyII@kbin.social avatar

So their punishment to other countries for recognising Palestine is to intensify their Palestinian genocide?

How can anyone see this and not realise that this whole thing was never about Hamas, they were just an excuse to finally get the ball rolling.

Tryptaminev ,

They get paid very well not to see that, or in the case of Germany get paid very well and used support for Israel as a smokescreen to deflect from the antisemitism they rightfully fear to be accused of. Israel is helping German Antisemites to push the blame on “immigrants” while Ethnically German Nazis get to attack Synagogues and have it downplayed. Zionists and Antisemites are allies.

BananaTrifleViolin ,

Russia threatened “severe consequences” for sanctions and supporting Ukraine.

Israel is not doing itself any favours threatening other countries.

lars ,

I wish the US would send as many weapons to Israel as it sends to Russia

EmptySlime ,

Technically the US is sending lots of weapons to Russia. Ukraine are even being real Bros about it and trying to deliver the munitions first cuz Russia keeps misplacing their stuff. Not their fault Russia is doing a very poor job of accepting their deliveries.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Idk about that. Russia flaunts Western military hardware captured in war in Ukraine

Ukraine has sidelined U.S.-provided Abrams M1A1 battle tanks for now in its fight against Russia, in part because Russian drone warfare has made it too difficult for them to operate without detection or coming under attack, two U.S. military officials told The Associated Press.

bradorsomething ,

They should be using the tanks for drone baiting

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Real Moneyball strategy

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The weapons keep breaking during transport. Maybe they should include a warning label

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/aa58f88e-286f-4a81-87e3-76eaa9f0e2e7.png

lars ,

Hey are Boeing airplanes part of the weaponry?

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a bit surprised Russia is even on the “Supports Palestine” list, given that they’ve been increasingly hostile towards Arab people and cozy towards Israel.

PrincessLeiasCat ,

Hey Israel, China called. They want their “angry threats because someone recognized Taiwan” mode back.

Gigan ,
@Gigan@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t like Israel

Noodle07 ,

Wow I found hamas guys

wolfeh ,
@wolfeh@lemmy.world avatar

ZOMG ANTISEMITISM

… /s, obviously.

Sir_Kevin ,
@Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Jerry! Jerry!!

floofloof ,

Israel’s foreign minister Israel Katz said in a public statement that the move to recognize Palestine was a “distorted step” by the countries

Israel’s National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir also condemned the move Wednesday and said the response from Israel would be to intensify its operations in Gaza—where the ICC chief prosecutor this week alleged war crimes by Israeli forces have taken place—even further. In his remarks, Ben-Gvir called for a “root treatment” for the city of Rafah, where hundreds of thousands of civilians have fled but many still remain with nowhere go.

That old right-wing refrain: “Look what you made me do!”

Jerkface , (edited )

lemmy.world/…/80d060a0-9f1b-4779-b458-0d28ae8a547…

(Do it even harder.jpg)

Basically this

Edit: un-embedded the image cause it was tacky

Viking_Hippie ,

As an aside, an ethnostate’s foreign minister’s first name being the name of the country is too on the nose for most farcical fiction, let alone reality 🤦

Veraxus ,

So they are going with North Korea theory of foreign of relations. That’s a bold strategy, Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off for them.

pivot_root ,

It’s crazy to think that we can now include Israel in a short list alongside North Korea and China.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe we should sanction them.

Yeah. Probably.

“Sorry best we can do is more bombs, officially define antisemitism as calling these guys assholes, and, uh, oh yeah, giving their military benefits packages!”

Vorticity ,

Don’t forget threatening to sanction the ICC over the Netanyahu arrest warrant.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

sooo much shit, it’s hard to keep it all in one post.

stoly ,

Yeah this is the one that made me finally go “really Biden ?”

Aceticon ,

All that work putting together a “humanitarian help” system which was only ever meant as propaganda and never meant to actual put a dent in Israel’s Final Solution of death by Starvation, and Biden throws all that aways like this.

Bet even his Campaign and Press people are pissed of at that one, though probably not for “normal person empathising with the suffering of others” reasons.

thetreesaysbark ,

Not sure how the Jewish would think about this but I’m starting to think it’s antisemitic to link the Jewish and Israel (apart from Israel defining itself as a Jewish state). Funny how that might go full circle.

FuglyDuck , (edited )
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

I dunno. It definitely will incentivize “otherising” of the Jewish diaspora. Which may be a tertiary objective of it. And it will definitely lead to increased conflict.

Which is a shame because most the Jews I know well enough to talk to about it, are extremely anti-genocide, and they’re vocal about it because… they know “I’m Jewish, [awkward stare]” is a great way to not get dinged for politics at work. (At least when the political topic is Gaza.)

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You are absolutely right on that. It keeps many anti-genocide Jews silent. It kept me silent for a very long time. I didn’t even like talking about being Jewish. What changed my mind was a British documentary by a British comedian named David Baddiel called Jews Don’t Count (based on his book of the same name), which is specifically about the “othering” of Jews, especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white. It’s made me more vocal about things. I had already seen the documentary a few years before, but what has truly cemented it for me was the “you have said the actual truth” tweet by Elon Musk in response to someone who said Jews were oppressing white people.

It was streaming somewhere where non-Brits could see it (I think Dailymotion), but it doesn’t appear to be there anymore.

beardown ,

especially how many white people don’t see Jews as white, but most non-white people don’t see Jews as non-white.

There are people who are Jewish and non-white though - Ethiopian jews for example.

Which seems to negate the (Zionist-created) argument that there is such a thing as a Jewish ethnicity in the first place, as opposed to Judaism simply being a multi-ethnic faith like Christianity or Islam.

Clearly though plenty of people who are Jewish are also white. And clearly there is a history of denying them this Whiteness once their faith is “discovered” by those they know. Same as Irish or, to a lesser extent, Italians and Slavs. Which is wrong - as is the concept of race/ethnicity/“Whiteness” in the first place

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The vast majority of Jews are white. Yes, there are a few exceptions like Beta Israel, or what you call Ethiopian Jews (less than 200,000 people) or Yemenite Jews (Around 400,000 people), but considering there are around 16 million Jews on the planet, around 11 million Ashkenazi and around 2 million Sephardic. I think “Jews are white” is, as a general rule, a correct statement whether or not someone like Elon Musk think otherwise. I mean there are non-white Icelanders, but I think most people would say that claiming Icelanders are white without specifying that that’s only a generality is acceptable as a statement.

beardown ,

But there’s a difference between saying most Icelanders are white and saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic.

Either ethnicity/race is a necessary component of belonging to a group, or it isn’t. And if it isn’t, then idk how one can claim that such a group is an ethnicity.

So long as human beings who are black, Arab, Asian, etc can be Jewish, then idk how we can say that Jews are an ethnicity

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

No one is saying whiteness is a necessary condition to being Icelandic or Jewish. The point is that when Elon says “you have said the actual truth” to someone who claims Jews are oppressing white people, he isn’t thinking of Beta Israel or Yemenite Jews. He isn’t even thinking of Sephardic Jews. He is thinking of Ashkenazi Jews, who are white. He just doesn’t understand that. He very likely doesn’t even know non-white Jews exist… but the Jews who are white are often not considered to be white because they are Jewish. It is the othering of Jews we’re talking about.

beardown ,

the Jews who are white are often not considered to be white because they are Jewish. It is the othering of Jews we’re talking about.

Yeah I agree. But those people would be white regardless of if they were Jewish. Whiteness as a social construct is determined by skin color or national origin or both. Religion doesn’t have anything to do with it, although clearly through history it has - which catholics have also dealt with to some extent, especially in the WASP areas of the southern US.

FlyingSquid , (edited )
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

But those people would be white regardless of if they were Jewish.

Except we aren’t. Many other white people don’t consider me white. I know that for a fact from personal experience. It doesn’t matter that I am genetically European and my skin is light.

And it is not just religion. I’m an atheist. That wouldn’t make a damn bit of difference to the SS or any of the people chanting, “Jews will not replace us” in Charlottesville or Elon “you have said the actual truth” Musk. I am a Jew regardless and, thus, not white.

By the way, this is also true of Roma people. They are (or can be anyway) in almost every way visually indistinguishable from the rest of the European population. It doesn’t matter, they’re not white anyway.

beardown ,

Yeah we’re saying the same thing. I recognize that there is a long history of denying Whiteness to people who have white skin. As I said, Irish, Italian, Slavic, and other catholic/orthodox peoples have been denied Whiteness at various points in history, in the US and elsewhere, in addition to people who are Jewish or Roma.

My point though is clearly the typical Irish person is white even if they are not seen as “White.” The typical Bosniak is white, even if they are not seen as “White.” And yes, clearly the typical Jewish person is white, even if they have not historically been seen as “White.” But that’s because really only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are reliably considered to be White in the United States - which is a 3-part conjunctive test, of which people who are Jewish only satisfy, at most, the first two parts.

The point is that Whiteness doesn’t even objectively exist, and is a socially constructed tool used to maintain the historical/current superstructure of Anglo Bourgeois hegemony in the West. So we should reject the classification of anyone as White rather than merely try to expand its definition to include historically oppressed peoples with white skin

Nevertheless, my point originally was that you don’t need white skin to be Jewish. And because there are Ethiopian and Polish and Arab jews, it seems difficult to believe that there could be a Jewish ethnicity like the Zionists claim. And it seems that claiming that Jews are a distinct ethnic group is itself highly othering - and that othering is the intentional goal not only of White supremacist bigots, but also, for different reasons, is the goal of Zionist ethnostates such as Israel

Viking_Hippie ,

I’m starting to think it’s antisemitic to link the Jewish and Israel

It definitely is. There’s few things more antisemitic than assuming that all Jews approve of the fascist government of an apartheid ethnostate committing genocide with impunity.

It’s right up there with the Alex Jones “globalist” conspiracy theories.

Aceticon ,

Oh, have no doubt about that.

And it’s pretty straightforwardly so: for example claiming that somebody demonstrating against the killing of children by Israel is an anti-semite is implying that killing children is a Jewish thing to do, which is incredibly close to the “Jews eat babies” kind of propaganda from the Nazis: even the worst actual antisemites in the present day weren’t going around claiming that murdering children is a Jewish thing to do.

That’s just how out of control the Israeli ultra-violent and extremelly racist Fascists and their racist Fascist supporters in places like the US are.

APassenger ,

I grew weary if anti-genocide protests being framed as pro-palestinian.

Neither side is entirely free of bloodshed. It’s about stopping the bloodshed which means, I’d think, reducing the us vs them, not entrenching it.

Does anyone know how that framing became so consistent? Not in a speculative way, but with evidence?

Aceticon , (edited )

Well, in the tribalist kind of thinking everybody must always be pro-some-faction or against-some-faction and the far-right (including Fascists tribes such as Zionists) are seldom deep thinkers and skeptics, so are almost without exception tribalists.

So it makes absolute sense that Zionists (and members of other political tribes whose “chiefs” have decided to support Zionism) claim that people who are demonstrating because of their Principles (in this case Humanist ones, like “though shall not kill innocent civilians”) are doing so because of being pro-some-faction. Further, I would even say that the Zionists absolutelly believe that claim they’re making and are speaking the truth as they see it: they simply cannot conceive of people being anything but tribalists who will put tribalism above all else (even any leftover Principles they might have) so people must be pro-some-faction or anti-some-faction to be demonstrating.

(PS: Whilst this is not evidence, it does match what I’ve observed first hand in situations like the Brexit Referendum in the UK. It also matches my observations as member of a political party in my homeland, since most political party members tend to be tribalist, even in leftwing parties, which as somebody who returned from abroad with no pre-existing “love for the team’s shirt” and chose a party to join and help based on the principles they seemed to support, made me quite an atypical member and gave a wonderful chance to observe political tribalists in their “natural environment”)

This is also why I believe a lot of the propaganda techniques being deployed by the Biden Campaign to try and get votes from people who are against the current actions of the Zionists because it goes against their Principles are incredibly misguided - Principled people aren’t pro-Biden or even anti-Trump, they’re pro or against some kinds of action no matter who does it, and things like “aversion to the murder of children” tend to be some of the stronguest principles around so likely to be much stronger for a non-tribalist that the “uuh, those other guys are bad” tribalist-heavy arguments.

I wouldn’t be surprised if many people don’t end up in the voting booth, intellectually ready to swallow their Principles and vote Biden purelly to stop Trump, and can’t actually bring themselves to cast a vote.

Anyways, all this are theories and if Biden keeps on supporting the Zionists and their Genocide, we shall see.

Tryptaminev ,

It is deliberate. Zionists love antisemitism. They love it when Jews are attacked outside Israel so they can claim to be the only safe place for them in the world. They love to use antisemitism to attack Jews, who do not want to be associated with Israel or are even critical of Israels practices or worst “questioning their “right to existence””.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I am Jewish and yes, it is antisemitic to consider all Jews as Israelis. I do not support Israel, I have no affiliation with Israel, I have no interest in going to Israel apart from the archaeology. I’m from Indiana and I have a hell of a lot more in common with a Christian from Fort Wayne than an Israeli from Haifa.

Also, I know this is totally anecdotal, but every Israeli I have met in my life has been an asshole, which doesn’t exactly endear me to their country.

Netanyahu is the one who benefits most from people thinking all Jews are Israeli. I sure as hell haven’t benefited from it considering how many times I’ve had to justify myself just for who my ancestors were.

thetreesaysbark ,

Thanks for your input!

It’s crazy how the media portrays the ‘critisizing Israel is critizing the jewish’ position. Even politicians, at least in the west, lean in to it, but this could be due to the geopolitical position of Israel as an ally I suppose.

Karyoplasma ,

I have met a few cool Israelis, but I still wouldn’t want to visit that country. Kinda like Iran, I played video games with a group from Iran for a long time and they are good and kind people, but I wouldn’t ever want to visit them because I wouldn’t feel safe in their country.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sure not all Israelis are assholes, it’s just amazing that I’ve met a good two dozen Israelis and all of them have been assholes. Just arrogant as fuck.

UltraMagnus0001 ,

But oil

juicy ,

No more Sabra Hummus for you, Ireland!

phoneymouse ,

Israel’s final warning

SocialMediaSettler ,

Gee, I sure hope Israel doesn’t start launching nukes.

SuddenDownpour ,

For the unaware:

“China’s final warning” is a Russian ironic idiom originating from the Soviet Union that refers to a warning that carries no real consequences.

theacharnian , (edited )
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

The amount of sheer sense of entitlement is just mind boggling.

Muscar ,

Did you mean “sheer”?

theacharnian ,
@theacharnian@lemmy.ca avatar

Fixed, thx.

fluxion ,

Fuck off. That was the deal you signed up for.

Jafoo ,

They’ll retract Sacha Baron Cohen’s citizenship, and leave The West saddled with him, his shitty movies, and the irreparable wreck of his once brilliant career

SatansMaggotyCumFart ,

Canada did that with Bryan Adams, Justin Bieber and Celine Dion.

Jafoo ,

Exactly why we must now take Israel’s threat to revoke SBC’s citizenship seriously

tortillaPeanuts ,

Wtf, what did he do? I quite enjoyed his movies. I know he is literally Skeletor but that’s just in a movie.

pivot_root ,

Not sure about the commenter above, but his latest Borat movie did piss off a bunch of rednecks.

Numenor ,

He’s British though?

Viking_Hippie ,

They’re gonna ask Sunak to send him to Rwanda? 🤷

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not a fan of his broad style of comedy, but a huge number of people love his TV shows and movies, he’s made a lot of people laugh, and he made Rudy Giuliani look like a pedo. I really don’t have an issue with the dude.

Jafoo ,

Da Ali G Show was brilliant. The rest of his solo work has been shit

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