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haych ,

My last car purchase was £8650 for a 1L petrol from 2016. And I bought it this year.

If he could direct me to the nearest electric car of the same price and range I’d be happy to buy one, until then it’s a stupid comment and ICE are going to be here for a LONG time, purely because not everyone can afford expensive vehicles.

ky56 ,

I’ll consider buying an electric vehicle when they are no longer irreparable, unmaintainable, privacy blackholed, iPhones on wheels.

cockandballs ,

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identity99567 ,

You gonna be ok, friend?

lanolinoil ,
@lanolinoil@lemmy.world avatar

Psh – Try 1895. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_Motorized_Carriage#….

PixelOfLife ,

Rivian CEO should keep his mouth shut until a few grand gets you a used compact electric hatchback (VW Polo or similar) with a decent battery.

Corkyskog ,

To be fair the headline is a bit clickbaity. The quote is referring to someone buying a new Chevy Suburban in 2030. It would be kind of dumb to do that in my opinion, but I also would never buy a new car anyway.

phej ,

Who cares what a CEO has to say?

BreakDecks ,

We can give them a little credit when they speak out against fossil fuels, as a treat.

grue ,

Buying any car, electric or otherwise, is 'Sort of like building a horse barn in 1910’.

Real sustainability comes from changing the zoning code to cease outlawing walkability.

gian ,

Buying any car, electric or otherwise, is 'Sort of like building a horse barn in 1910’.

Let’s say that it depend on where you live. In a big city maybe a car can be useless (or less usefull), but in a small town like mine a car is basically the only way to move around since public transportation is really limited.

Real sustainability comes from changing the zoning code to cease outlawing walkability.

Even if you remove all the private cars in a city, you will discover that you will substitute almost all of them with small/medium trucks to deliver all the groceries/products you (end everyone else) need in your life. And I say it living in a small town where I can almost do the day by day chores without using a car.

puffy ,

A single delivery truck carries 100-200 packages, if everyone drives to the store instead, you’d have 100+ cars on the road. There is a huge difference.

gian ,

I am not sure that there would be a so huge difference, especially outside some big cities and especially if you add also the public transportation to the game.

But maybe I am wrong.

nbafantest ,

It would be quite large. The vehicles per household would decrease to about 1 instead of over 2.

rich ,

I don’t own a car anymore and haven’t for two years now. I walk everywhere. Around 10 miles most days through the countryside and coast from town to town.

Healthiest I’ve ever been, I can eat what I want a lot of the time too. I’ve got basically no body fat and I have a ridiculous amount of energy. I feel constantly refreshed too, before I was lethargic and overweight.

I live in the UK however in a very pedestrian orientated location where I can do this without issue. Or get a bus or train if needed. I have absolutely no idea how it would be possible in a rural area or a car centric city. I guess it wouldn’t be, and the people in charge are not willing to change.

grue ,

I have absolutely no idea how it would be possible in a rural area or a car centric city. I guess it wouldn’t be, and the people in charge are not willing to change.

I live in a car-centric city, and am relatively civically engaged. Speaking from personal experience, for most of the people in charge, it’s not that they’re unwilling to change; it’s that they’re so indoctrinated from having grown up in American car-centricity that they don’t understand the problem or the alternatives enough to realize that there’s anything to change to. They’re like the people in this thread, who think “infrastructure” means things like adding EV chargers to suburban-sprawl parking lots or trying to get public transit to serve neighborhoods of single-family houses. They have no comprehension of the scope of the problem, which is that the Suburban Experiment is a failure and that the geometry of low-density, car-centric development makes it unsustainable, unaffordable, and unhealthy, regardless of how you power the cars.

Even when they support things like transit-oriented development or abolishing minimum parking requirements, they tend to think it’s the exception to be implemented in certain areas instead of realizing that it needs to be the default way we do things now.

TheDramaLlama ,

I hate armchair urbanists so much it’s unreal

whofearsthenight ,

That would barely scratch the surface, I’m afraid. For quite a lot of America, not owning a car is simply not feasible. I don’t have a large friend/family group, but in 4 cases now, we’ve had to relocate our families a town over because wages aren’t keeping up with cost of living. So we all have long commutes now. There are no buses, trains, etc. We were priced out of housing market. When my landlord sold the property and forced my move 5-6 years ago, I could rent and pay 30% more for a smaller place, I could buy for what I was paying if I wanted to move my family of 5 into a two bed with no yard, etc, or I could move a town or two over pay a bit more, and get a decent size house for my family. Today if I had to buy a house, I couldn’t even come close to affording the place I live in now, especially not at 7-9% interest compared to the 3.5% I got.

Now I guess you could still say fuck me I should have given up my dogs, moved my family into a shoe box and just walked to save the planet, but even then that’s not really feasible. In a town of 60k I moved from, there is only bussing, and even then they don’t run often enough to a wide enough range of places that you’re not building in additional hours of the day to get where you’re going. And they often don’t run past 7pm or before 7am. And that’s most of America. Even in large cities, public transportation is severely lacking compared to the rest of the civilized world.

Biking in the US should also help be a stopgap, but our whole society is so fucking car centric even that’s even not really feasible. Aside from the fact that most of infrastructure rarely has bike lanes or even places to store bikes, its still lacking severely from “I’m just going a few blocks over to the bodega” every few days and is more like “just 5-10 miles to the grocery store.” And this is just looking at my tiny little town where I live that is nowhere near as bad as somewhere like Houston, which is far more populous and also even less dense and less traversable by anything that’s not a car.

In 2023, saying people shouldn’t own cars is either ignorant of the issues around it or just classist. The Rivian CEO saying shit like this, with a starting price of $73k, is just more classist CEO bullshit. We don’t even have the charging infrastructure at the moment to support everyone buying electric, not to mention I’d be willing to bet that 50% or more of this country can’t even afford the starting price on whatever the cheapest electric is.

nbafantest ,

Real sustainability comes from changing the zoning code to cease outlawing walkability.

Reply:

For quite a lot of America, not owning a car is simply not feasible

WHY IS IT NOT FEASIBLE WHOFEARSTHENIGHT? IS IT BECAUSE OF ZONING? ITS BECAUSE OF ZONING ISNT IT

haych ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    tankplanker ,

    That amount will get you into a Renault Zoe or Nissan Leaf without much shopping around. Both would be three years younger, be considerably faster, and have a 40kwh battery so a practical range of about 160 miles between charges. Cheapest Zoes and Leafs are listed at about £5k now (but have the smaller battery)and most will take less than listed to get rid as there is a glut of them due to the second hand market being over valued. Zoes before 2021 will likely come with a battery lease, which starts at £50 a month, Leafs do not.

    I actually think the battery lease makes more sense on an older electric car as Renault have to replace the battery for free once the capacity gets under 75% available capacity. Most battery warranties on the other hand expire after a fixed period, which a lot of people will now be butting up aginst if they are purchasing the early examples, and the percentage available capacity for a free replacement is often 60%, much harder to hit.

    So it can be done in the UK, and even makes sense assuming you can charge at home as home charging works out considerably cheaper than ICE. It costs 9p a kwh to charge overnight so 160 actual miles of range costs less than £4, good luck finding any ICE car that can match that.

    As you can charge overnight then you can charge every night, so your practical daily range is 160 miles. If you are genuinely doing more than 160 miles a day I really question the choice of a 1l car to do that. If you are doing 160 miles in a single journey then charging on route will still work out cheaper when spread out over total cost of ownership.

    haych ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    tankplanker ,

    Buying a car and paying for a full manufacturer warranty for a new for old battery replacement is most definitely a smart decision on an older EV. The battery is the most expensive component on any older EV and being able to get a brand new replacement for something that costs about £10k fitted by a main dealer for what is £50 a month makes a lot of sense as it greatly extends the life of the car and resale value for considerably less than the cost to yourself. If only you could get an actual full manufacturer warranty on an old 1l highly strung turbo, there is a reason they don’t offer them and its not lack of demand. And no, third party warranty aren’t worth the paper they are printed on for anything expensive once you are past the initial sale period.

    You’ve completely ignored that assuming you can home charge (which roughly two thirds of the UK can do even before we get to on street charging using lampposts and the like) its going to be considerably cheaper to run. Current UK average petrol price is 151p per liter, assuming 60mpg (which is optimistic) that’s about £18.28 for 160 miles vs. £3.6 for the electric car. Its far more likely you’ll be getting nearer 50 unless hypermiling in optimal conditions, in which case you’d be using Eco mode in the Zoe and doing the same light touch you’d be getting 190 miles for that same £3.6. If you are doing any sort of miles then you are going to be saving thousands over the lifespan of the car, my son is saving enough that the monthly loan cost for his nearly new car (was six months old) works out as zero with the money he saves vs. a cheap petrol car he could have purchased for his £3k deposit and no loan. I know which is the considerably better and more reliable car of the two options.

    Are you actually doing a regular commute more than 160 miles? As that’s going to be over 3 hours a day in the car, more like 4 with traffic. The amount of people that actually do that are tiny and they aren’t usually driving little 1l fiestas to so, they usually have already switched to electric as its a saving of hundreds per month in fuel and probably thousands per year in company car tax as they tend to be company cars due to the excessively high mileage. If you aren’t doing over 160 miles a day commute then the range is absolutely enough as you can charge each night if you really have to.

    You can tell you’ve never actually driven an EV if you think your car is faster in real world driving, being faster to 60 from a standing start is pointless as it rapidly becomes about who will drive a higher top speed. Its 0 to 30 and in gear acceleration that is actually useful. No straight ICE can match an EV of the same bracket & price point for those performance stats as an EV has 100% instant full torque and no gear changes to worry about. Besides, I was thinking of the R135, which you can almost squeak into now.

    I wouldn’t be buying anything other than an EV now, they are just better suited to modern driving. ICE cars and especially hybrids have gotten too complicated to be worthwhile long term purchases in order to meet the latest emissions standards. They are also ticking time bombs (outside high end collectables) for depreciation and costs.

    haych , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

    •
    tankplanker ,

    You’ve completely ignored multiple of my points and making baseless claims

    Yet you have highlighted or addressed none of these and have made quite a few of these yourself, such as:

    Also not everyone lives in a place where they can park and charge at home Already addressed and acknowledged this point, so heres a perfect example of you ignoring points:

    ICE vehicles aren’t going anywhere for a long time, Another example, where have I said that they are going to be wiped out? Just that you either have to have a very particular set of requirements for an EV not to make sense. However what will happen is that we will reach a tipping point (who knows when that will be, I certainly do not) and the majority of ICE cars will just disappear.

    I am old enough to remember the end of cars that only ran on leaded petrol without expensive rework. They were around for ages after the ban date was set and there were plenty of great bargains available as people rushed to get rid, but then the petrol stations that sold leaded stopped, and it became impractical for most people to run leaded so they went as well. I would expect the same for ICE, a complete apocalypse for used pricing by a rapid closure of petrol stations and loads of ICE just then being junked.

    Speaking of making baseless claims while ignoring my points:

    Zoe is 110 horsepower, my 3 cylinder 1LT has 140 horsepower. Zoe 0-60 is 13.1

    Firstly I was talking about the R135, but still that’s not the worst thing here. You’ve quoted the BHP of the R110 but quoted the 0-60 for the Q90. I am assuming that’s in bad faith.

    You also deliberately ignoring that I talk about torque delivery rather than peak torque, and no, the ecoboost does not produce more torque than any EV from 0 to 1750 RPM, its impossible for any pure ICE car to do so. Another intentional bad faith argument.

    Buying an electric car for the same price as a petrol car, then paying £50 a month is ludicrous, that’s twice as much as I spend on fuel Where do I even start with this.

    The £50 is for a full manufacturer warranty on the battery, new for old, its not just some random fee you are paying and in an older EV its value for money.

    You have also banged on and on about range yet you spend £25 a month on fuel? Fucking LMAO. Your entire argument about your choices around range and cost are just bunk now. I would estimate your monthly range to be between 150 and 230 miles a month now, careful driving in a Zoe could see you doing that with one charge a month for £3.60 as I outlined above.

    You could even spend half of what you spent on your car on a Zoe with a smaller battery and charge every ten days or so for the same £3.60 a month of charging time as you are doing so few miles. So you could have saved thousands of pounds up front.

    Youve completely ignored the cost saving for charging vs. fuel, something which is only going to get worse as time goes on as the number of petrol stations in the UK decreases into ever smaller number of owners. We already have effective price fixing by the supermarket forecourts keeping prices high this summer.

    I have driven electric vehicles Sure, was it the cybertruck and roadster with Elon? The milk float from Father Ted? The new lambo EV? Your claims just aren’t credible when I believe you arguing in bad faith.

    Still, I am sure you are enjoying the boundless power, thrilling sound track from your ultra reliable ecoboost?

    motorbiscuit.com/avoid-ford-ecoboost-engine-all-c…carvibz.com/…/ford-ecoboost-1-0-liter-teardown-re…

    AA5B ,

    I imagine he was talking about new cars

    There really isn’t much of a market in used EVs yet: it’s still too recent that they’d been around in quantity. However the best way to get a bunch of inexpensive ten year old used cars, is to sell a lot of new cars and wait ten years. Let those who can afford to buy new, buy EVs, so in ten years we’ll have inexpensive e used ones

    itscozydownhere ,
    @itscozydownhere@lemmy.world avatar

    I agree. In Europe some not mega big electric cars are already on par with their gasoline equivalent

    HughJanus ,

    Actual (chopped up) quote from RJ:

    “I think the reality of buying a combustion-powered vehicle … is sort of like building a horse barn in 1910,” he said. “Imagine buying a Chevy Suburban in 2030 … what are you going to do with that … in 10 years?”

    This article is clickbait garbage.

    Colorcodedresistor ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    hearthing ,

    This comment resonates with me deeply and I don’t like it.

    HelixDab2 ,

    Yeah, so, how much is one of those Rivian trucks, exactly?

    $73,000?

    Yeah, fuck off. That’s more than the median annual gross income for American workers. It’s all good and well to tout a slightly more sustainable form of transportation–still not nearly as sustainable as busses or trains!–but when you’re pricing it well outside what most people can rationally afford, you’re not helping the situation.

    GiddyGap ,

    All these products have to come to market in order for prices to eventually come down. People need to see that they have viable options to gasoline cars.

    In Norway, more than 80 percent of new cars sold are electric. There are many other options that don’t cost $73,000. Rivian is just one option.

    HelixDab2 ,

    IIRC, Norway also offered substantial tax incentives to people that bought electric cars. IIRC, the fed. gov’t did the same in the US, and car companies responded by raising prices by the amount of the incentive.

    red ,

    Ah, because the only EVs in the market are Rivian ones.

    2ncs ,

    That’s true but you have to consider how much of the car market is made up of used cars. When I was last shopping for cars (4 years ago) there were hardly any EVs in my budget and the ones that were, were 10 year old Priuses. Most people frankly don’t have the income to buy anything more than a gas car. (Market for EVs may have changed since my experience). The way I see it is the CEO is making a good point while also shitting on poor people.

    AA5B ,

    The first response from Google shows me several late model used Nissan Leafs for around $15k. Those didn’t have much range but plenty for most people’s day to day

    mammut ,

    $15,000 is still substantially more than a 10 year old Prius, though, which hover around $10,000 right now. If your budget is $10,000, you’re probably not getting an all-electric car.

    MumboJumbo ,

    Not only the cost, but there’s also the issue of infrastructure. I as well as many others in my city don’t have a garage and park either on the street or on a parking pad in the alley. I wouldn’t imagine a power cord running to a vehicle lasting very long because of the scrap prices of copper. We’ve got a long ways to go.

    red ,

    I believe that from his comment (“what are you going to do with that in 10 years”), he was implying buying new cars. I see nothing odd in buying used ICE cars, but I wouldn’t dish out for a new one at this point.

    Now if you buy a used car for 10k now, you’ll probably have a harder time getting value out of it in 10 years vs. EV.

    mammut , (edited )

    I agree that an EV will probably age better, but, at least in the States, you can get a new ICE car a lot cheaper than a new EV, so there’s still a huge price hurdle. There are still a few ICE cars that are available new for as little as $18k. If you want to jump to a EV with comparable range, even used, you’re probably gonna have to spend more than that.

    So, there are very real affordability considerations.

    Edit: There was a time when you could get an early generation Bolt used for around $17k, but that’s still a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow, paying almost the same for a used, early generation car (many of which were recalled for fire issues) as you could pay for a new car.

    jdeath ,

    and it’s only $40,000 to repair a bumper dent! such value!

    thedrive.com/…/rivian-r1t-fender-bender-turns-int…

    GamingChairModel ,

    Average transaction price for a new vehicle in the U.S. is already at $48k. Plenty of electric models are below the average price by now.

    The fact is, if you’re considering buying a new car, you’re already on the richer side. So this message is mainly aimed at those richer Americans considering a $73,000 F-150, that they might want to consider a $73,000 Rivian instead.

    Waldemar_Firehammer ,

    Even in that instance the Lightning is a better deal.

    pwalshj ,

    It would be like burning coal to make the electricit…oh

    Honytawk ,

    Even if an EV is 100% powered by coal power plants, it would still produce 40% less Co2 per kilometer than an ICE.

    ICE are just that inefficient.

    If the EV was powered by 100% solar panels, that would rise to 90% less Co2 per kilometer.

    And before you start with “EVs are more polluting to produce”, know that EV’s still would pollute less than an ICE after about 25 000km.

    Most cars easily drive 4 times that in their lifetime.

    the_vale ,

    Got any links to support these claims? I’d be interested to know more for when people bring up the same argument as the person you’re replying to.

    Brandon658 ,

    Not OP but searched up EE’s video on a topic like this. Been a long while since I watched it so I don’t remember much about it in description is the sources. So at the very least you can check some of that type of stuff.

    youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM?si=_i0p3AQftvmqXcal

    But yeah in general an ICE is horrendous at efficiency vs electric. An ICE blows some 70+% of its energy on making heat we don’t use but instead actively use some of the available energy made to cool it.

    PipedLinkBot ,

    Here is an alternative Piped link(s): piped.video/6RhtiPefVzM?si=_i0p3AQftvmqXcal

    Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

    I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.

    pwalshj ,

    😍

    rockstarpirate ,

    Maybe if the alternative to building a horse barn in 1910 was building a garage that was so expensive only like 5% of the population could afford it.

    jdeath ,

    barns are still useful and valuable today. this guy is a moron! he might have said something that made sense, like buying a new horse-drawn carriage. still, didn’t it take a couple/few decades for everything to switch over to cars?

    killabeezio ,

    The infrastructure just isn’t there yet. If you live in apartments, where will you charge it? Can the overall electrical grid handle the load if let’s say 50% of people that own an electrical car? How do these cars do in extreme weather conditions? How much does it cost to repair them? How long will they last for? EVs are super expensive.

    We can’t even decide on a standard charging port.

    While I will eventually get an EV, there are problems that need to be addressed still.

    Tesla has ton of quality issues and riven is brand new. Why would I trust them?

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    Oh, and you get to change your battery in 3 years for $20k because it’s worn out.

    There are some big problems that get glossed over that you learn about when you own one, unless you’ve done enough research to know when people are blowing sunshine up your ass.

    SolNine ,

    I don’t know where you got that info from but that is certainly not the norm… There are Tesla cabs in Vegas with over a million miles, and most of these battery packs retain close to 90% of their capacity even after 10 years. I’m sure there are exceptions, but 3 years is silly.

    Yes there are problems and hurdles to overcome but I’d rank that pretty low.

    Honytawk ,

    Current battery technology easily lasts 10 year. The good ones even outlast the car they are installed in.

    frazw ,

    I worried about the battery until I had this thought (and looked at the 8 year warranty ):

    Phone battery, charged every night, approx 1000 charge cycles thus lasts 3 years ish.

    Car battery, charged as needed maybe every 4-7 days. Approx 1000 charge cycles thus lasts 12 to 21 years. Total battery failure is something else entirely but you said “worn out”.

    If you needed to charge every night it might mean short range which means cheaper battery to replace or you are doing lots of miles. My car could do 200 miles easily before recharging or up to 300 with more care. If doing 200 miles a day you are doing 73,000 miles per year so in 3 years 220,000 approx. Any car probably needs some serious work done to it after that much.

    Anyway we are still bringing this tech along so I reckon either prices will drop and/or car manufacturers will make them more serviceable so you don’t need to replace the whole thing but maybe sub modules at a time.

    n0m4n , (edited )

    Our Prius lasted 12 years before we sold it, and it was still going strong. Newer batteries have improved their life expectancy. My experience makes me doubt your claim both on life expectancy and cost. A quick search estimates the (battery) cost between $2000-$4500, depending upon installation cost. We replaced the Prius with another hybrid that gives us 65 mpg/28 kpl. When infrastructure gets better, We will fully switch to electric. ICE engines really are that much more inefficient. Equivalent electrical costs are pennies per gallon. edit added: (battery)

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t know about that price, even used EV batteries aren’t that cheap. I just bought 43 kWh of LFP batteries for my home and they were almost $10K, and that’s less capacity than most EV batteries.

    n0m4n ,

    I did a search to buy Prius batteries. I remember searching for how to replace batteries years ago and downloading the instructions. There were quite a few steps because of the potential of fire, if shorted out, but otherwise was pretty straight forward.

    www.ebay.com/itm/155688032892?chn=ps&amdata=e…

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    NiMH is pretty ancient tech for batteries. These would only be relevant to that specific model, and they’re reconditioned. Search up EV CATL LFP batteries and see how much those run.

    Honytawk ,

    The UK was replacing their old streetlights with LED, which frees up a lot of electricity.

    And at the same time put chargers in every street pole they replaced.

    Those apartments can charge there.

    frazw , (edited )

    I think the charging port thing is slowly resolving Type2/CCS seem to be winning. Most chargers I find that are relatively new support both type 2 and chademo. In a few years I don’t think you will need to consider this and if buying today I’d stick with type 2.

    I also heard that since the electric grid is designed to handle peak loads, it is over specced for today’s needs and there is a lot of time during which it could be updated before we get closer to its limits. I also had these thoughts but in practice most people charge overnight when a bunch of daytime devices are off. We might not use 7kW at home during the day, but businesses use a ton of electricity during the day. AC when is hot heating when it’s cold, PCs and monitors during the day, lights even though its daytime and that is before you get to a lot of power intensive specialist equipment that isn’t used at night typically, like hospital diagnostic instruments etc etc etc.

    I also wouldn’t judge everyone on Teslas track record. It is clear other car companies are going now slowly and taking more care. Rivian may be a bit different being a new comer but that is certainly true of the established manufacturers.

    AA5B , (edited )

    – a friend of mine just got a Tesla, despite living in a townhouse where he can’t charge. He goes out to charge on weekends, similarly to how he fills the tank in his gasoline car. It’s not as convenient or cheap as being able to just plug in, but it is a reasonable thing to do

    — how do you think apartments and condo complexes will get charging infrastructure? It won’t just appear and landlords/associations have no incentive to spend the money. The only way this happens is when EV adoption gets wide enough for them to see they’re losing money without it

    — who cares about a charging port? Adapters are cheap

    — Tesla’s quality issues are old news, that I don’t think is true anymore. Yes, they had issues scaling up, and discovering what other car companies already knew about mass manufacturing, but I believe they worked it out and are more similar to other manufacturers

    — Tesla may dominate th EV market in the US, but every car company has an EV, with dozens more models coming ou in the next year or two. If you don’t like Tesla’s try something else. Personally I’m not sure I can afford a Tesla but an interested in seeing whether GM can deliver on their announced pricing for Equinox and Blazer

    grue ,

    – a friend of mine just got a Tesla, despite living in a townhouse where he can’t charge. He goes out to charge on weekends, similarly to how he fills the tank in his gasoline car. It’s not as convenient or cheap as being able to just plug in, but it is a reasonable thing to do

    It only seems reasonable until you take a step back to consider the bigger picture, which is that areas zoned for townhouses ought to be walkable. The fact that he even wants a car – electric or otherwise – to begin with shows that something went very, very wrong in the design of the entire neighborhood.

    AA5B ,

    something went very, very wrong in the design of the entire neighborhood

    Several things went very very wrong ….

    The context is the Boston metro area. We do have pretty good transit, for the US. Most towns are old for the US and built up long before cars, so do have walkable centers with higher density housing ….

    So they built this complex in a swamp, oriented around cars, not walkable to anywhere. Exits on a main road that doesn’t even have sidewalks. And somehow for a car oriented development, it’s in an area without decent roads, so it’s not even easy to drive anywhere … and the complex is a black hole in the map of high speed internet: the only part of town not served by fiber

    grue ,

    And somehow for a car oriented development, it’s in an area without decent roads, so it’s not even easy to drive anywhere …

    It’s almost never easy to drive anywhere car-oriented (except rural areas): too many cars get in the way! What’s more, this is true no matter how “decent” the roads are, due to induced demand. The way to make it easy to drive is to provide alternatives so that the other folks use them and thus get out of the way.

    grue ,

    The infrastructure just isn’t there yet. If you live in apartments, where will you charge it?

    You’re right, but not in the way you think.

    The real issue is that if you live in an apartment, you shouldn’t need or want a car to begin with. The fact that so many people seem to think they do is a gigantic flashing neon clue that we’ve fucked up the zoning code and managed to build the apartments wrong in such a way that they’re not in a walkable area despite being dense.

    The infrastructure change we need is to be ripping out the parking lots, not installing EV chargers in them!

    killabeezio ,

    There are places where this is just not possible. I live in very hot climate and people would be dying all the time due to heat exhaustion and dehydration if this was the case. I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but you can’t simply say, fuck cars. It doesn’t work this way everywhere. I would say that public transportation needs to be greatly improved upon and invested in though.

    I’ve lived in places where I don’t need a car and it’s great and shitty. I’ve lived in places where you do need a car and it’s great and shitty. I’ve lived in places that have great transportation and it’s hot, but again, it’s great and shitty. There are trade-offs with whatever you go with. I do agree that we should focus more on better zoning and better public transportation.

    grue ,

    There are places where this is just not possible. I live in very hot climate and people would be dying all the time due to heat exhaustion and dehydration if this was the case.

    You say that as if cities in hot climates didn’t exist before cars.

    killabeezio ,

    You’re totally right. The world hasn’t been getting hotter due to climate change and people didn’t use horses. How could I forget.

    grue ,

    I point out that a hot climate isn’t an excuse for driving instead of walking or biking and your bullshit takeaway is to insinuate that I’m some kind of climate change denier? Fuck all the way off with that!

    Congratulations, that nonsense you’ve written is the most bad-faith reach I’ve read in a while.

    killabeezio ,

    Your comment is hogshit. It’s just comparing apples to oranges. It’s meaningless and unhelpful. You’re trying to suggest that something worked before so we should continue to do it. Should we not take vaccines next because that worked before? Should we not use soap too because they didn’t have that back then? Should we go back to riding horses? Should we all live in huts and mud walls? Should we not use electricity anymore as well? Humans have done this in the past so it will totally work in modern society, right? See I can say stupid shit too.

    grue ,

    Your comment is hogshit.

    Pure projection.

    You’re trying to suggest that something worked before so we should continue to do it.

    You say that like it’s a bad thing?

    Besides, it’s not just that. What I’m actually suggesting is that we’ve thoroughly tried the alternative, and it has proven to be a . Never mind screwing ourselves over with climate change; we’re also going to simply bankrupt ourselves if we keep building sprawl.

    Should we not take vaccines next because that worked before? Should we not use soap too because they didn’t have that back then? Should we go back to riding horses? Should we all live in huts and mud walls? Should we not use electricity anymore as well?

    Oh, fuck off back to Reddit – you’re trolling in bad faith and you know it. Not only that, but what you wrote isn’t even accurate in any sense because that shit didn’t “work before!”

    merc ,

    In 1910 the Model T had already been in production for 2 years. Remember that the Model T was designed to be cheap, so that every American could afford one.

    If anything, this is more like buying a horse (not building a barn) in the “Horseless Carriage” era of the late 1800s. It was an era when cars basically looked like horse-drawn carriages but without the horses. Everything was custom-manufactured, and it was expensive. You could maybe see that these “horseless carriages” were the future, but they were still pretty impractical for the present. The world still had infrastructure only for horses, and not horseless carriages.

    And yeah, if you were rich enough you might want to do your part to get rid of the major pollution problem of the day – streets absolutely filled with horse shit. But, that didn’t mean it was necessarily a practical idea to be one of the first to jump on the bandwagon.

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