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Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs

cross-posted from: lemmy.ml/post/15741608

They offer a thing they’re calling an “opt-out.”

The opt-out (a) is only available to companies who are slack customers, not end users, and (b) doesn’t actually opt-out.

When a company account holder tries to opt-out, Slack says their data will still be used to train LLMs, but the results won’t be shared with other companies.

LOL no. That’s not an opt-out. The way to opt-out is to stop using Slack.

slack.com/intl/en-gb/trust/…/privacy-principles

mPony ,

The headline is patently false.

FTA

We do not develop LLMs or other generative models using customer data.

If you want to act like you’re better than Reddit you’re going to have to start actually being better.

Azzu , (edited )

I’m sorry, can everyone not read the actual link? They specifically say they are not training generative AIs, i.e. LLMs.

They are using the data to train non-generative AIs for stuff like emoji and channel suggestions. I.e. “you use this emoji a lot, so it’s displayed first” or “people that are in these channels of yours also join these other channels you’re not in yet”.

This is class A misinformation being spread here, good job. It’s unbelievable that I’m the first one to actually verify the truth of this post, because I wanted to share it further and that’s what you do before.

gila ,

It also explicitly states in the posted screengrab that the opting-out user’s workspace won’t contribute to the underlying models. How would that be separate from using info on their workspace as training data for any kind of model? My interpretation of that is the data would be used to inference on the models, not train them.

OozingPositron ,
@OozingPositron@feddit.cl avatar

Some model is going to be trained on my Slaude smut lol.

ArkyonVeil ,
@ArkyonVeil@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

deleted_by_author

    •
    Azzu ,

    Hijacking top comment to say this post is misinformation: lemm.ee/comment/12015917

    fluxc0 ,

    what a shitshow. when is this gonna be made illegal?

    Veraxus ,

    The customer is never just a customer… even if you are paying. You are always the product now. Always.

    Veraxus ,

    Well, that’s just great. Another reason for corporations to force everyone into the miserable, counterproductive dumpster fire that is MS Teams.

    lemmyreader OP ,

    Is MS Teams the only viable alternative ?

    Veraxus ,

    No, but it’s the only one that big corporations know/care about… primarily because of MS’s aggressive “look, it’s basically free and TOTALLY the same thing, we promise” marketing strategy.

    Shialac ,

    At my old job we primarily used RocketChat, I miss it

    gadgetroid ,

    Also

    • Nextcloud Talk
    • Self-hosted Matrix server
    plz1 ,

    Teams is doing the same thing. I can’t go anywhere close to anything Microsoft without some Copilot I didn’t ask for getting jammed in.

    Ultraviolet ,

    Remember when every platform renamed PMs to DMs and everyone who pointed out that they’re trying to remove the expectation of privacy was “paranoid”?

    CH3DD4R_G0BL1N ,
    @CH3DD4R_G0BL1N@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I don’t, but it sounds exactly like every other time this exact thing happens.

    admin ,
    @admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

    Customers own their own Customer Data.

    Okay, that’s good.

    Immediately after that:

    Slack […] will never identify any of our customers or individuals as the source of any of these improvements to any third party, other than to Slack’s affiliates or sub-processors.

    You’d hope the owner would get a say in that.

    stellargmite ,

    So you sign up to confirm that your IP is yours, while simultaneously agreeing to sell it off , but the source will be anonymous other than to who it’s sold to or anyone else Slack decides they want to know. These tech contracts and TOS should just say “we will (try) not do bad, but you agree to let us do bad, and if bad happens its your fault”.

    0x0 ,

    mattermost anyone?

    possiblylinux127 ,

    Its used by NASA and the US Air Force so security wise it probably is pretty solid.

    Croquette ,

    An issue with mattermost is that some useful features are behind a paywall, like group calls.

    I’d go with nextcloud since all their features are included regardless of if you pay or not

    0x0 ,

    Ain’t everything open-souce?

    Croquette ,

    Open-source does not equal free. There is probably a way to circumvent their paywall, but on their website, self-hosted free version has a limit of 1-on-1 for calls.

    If you want a group call, you need to pay, even if you self-host.

    me_jumper ,

    Wait, which calls do you mean? We’re hosting or own free mattermost and I’ve never had that problem. We’re pretty happy with mattermost overall, but it’s also a small tech-savvy team.

    ConfusedPossum ,

    I use Slack at work everyday. I suppose this does feel off in some way but I'm not sure I'm the right amount of upset about this? I don't really mind if they use my data if it improves my user experience, as long as the platform doesn't reveal anything sensitive or personal in a way that can be traced back to me.

    Slack already does allow your admin to view all of your conversations, which is more alarming to me

    SeedyOne ,

    The problem is where you said “as long as” because we already know companies AND the AI itself can’t be trusted to not expose sensitive info. At absolute best, it’s another vector to be breached.

    ConfusedPossum ,

    It's obvious when you say it like that. I don't like the idea of some prompt hacker looking at memes I sent to my coworker

    Blueshift ,

    Slack already does allow your admin to view all of your conversations, which is more alarming to me

    I’m a slack admin for my company, and I can tell you that no: admins can’t read DMs or private channels they’re not a part of

    Gamers_Mate ,

    Instead of working on their platform to get discord users to jump ship they decide to go in the same direction.
    Also pretty sure training LLMs after someone opts out is illegal?

    sapphiria ,
    @sapphiria@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Wait, discord is also doing this?

    reimufumo ,
    @reimufumo@lemmy.ca avatar

    Not currently and publically at least. They’re feeding your messages into an LLM, twitter.com/…/1790065494432608432 but that’s not as bad as training one with your messages

    FaceDeer ,
    @FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

    Also pretty sure training LLMs after someone opts out is illegal?

    Why? There have been a couple of lawsuits launched in various jurisdictions claiming LLM training is copyright violation but IMO they're pretty weak and none of them have reached a conclusion. The "opting" status of the writer doesn't seem relevant if copyright doesn't apply in the first place.

    deweydecibel ,

    but IMO they’re pretty weak

    Well, thankfully, it’s not up to you.

    FaceDeer ,
    @FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

    Nor is it up to you. But fact remains, it's not illegal until there are actually laws against it. The court cases that might determine whether current laws are against it are still ongoing.

    Grimy ,

    If copyrights apply, only you and stack own the data. You can opt out but 99% of users don’t. No users get any money. Google or Microsoft buys stack so only they can use the data. We only get subscription based AI, open source dies.

    If copyrights don’t apply, everyone owns the data. The users still don’t get any money but they get free open source AI built off their work instead of closed source AI built off their work.

    Having the website have copyright of the content in the context of AI training would be a fucking disaster.

    NovaPrime ,
    @NovaPrime@lemmy.ml avatar
    1. It’s not illegal. 2. “Law” isn’t a real thing in an oligarchy, except insofar as it can be used by those with capital and resources to oppress and subjugate those they consider their lessors and to further perpetuate the system for self gain
    bappity ,
    @bappity@lemmy.world avatar

    fucks sake

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    Is there a self hosted slack-like that has a mobile app

    far_university1990 ,

    Is there a self hosted slack-like?

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    Is there self hosting?

    snooggums ,
    @snooggums@midwest.social avatar

    Is there self?

    Numenor ,

    David Hume!

    mp3 ,
    @mp3@lemmy.ca avatar
    • Matrix
    • Mattermost
    • Rocket Chat
    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    Is there a decent client? Desktop and mobile?

    thepaperpilot ,

    For matrix specifically, I recommend fluffy chat on mobile and cinny for web/desktop. Most notably, they both support the not-yet-official spec on custom emojis and stickers, which I think is important for any slack-like.

    For the server (since you want to self host), you'd probably want to do Synapse - it supports not being federated as well as SSO. Also it wasn't mentioned by mp3, but xmpp is another protocol that's used by many large companies for internal chat systems as well.

    jqubed ,
    @jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

    Does IRC still exist? I remember laughing when I first saw Slack and its early competitors because people were excited about it and when I finally used it I realized it was basically just IRC with a nicer interface. I’m assuming these offer improvements like encryption?

    admin ,
    @admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

    Nah, there’s tons of features that slack has over irc. To start with inline media (images, audio, video), but most importantly lots of out of the box external integrations and webhooks.

    jqubed ,
    @jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah, now there is, but I don’t think a lot of those features were in when I first used it over a decade ago. It became a lot more useful over the years.

    Kushan ,
    @Kushan@lemmy.world avatar

    It didn’t require using arcane commands just to sign up and log in. I love IRC and will always remember it fondly, but it wasn’t easy for a novice to use and that’s why things like slack and discord took off.

    0x0 ,

    Yes, IRC still exists… as does XMPP.

    0x01 ,

    Rocket chat I think checks those boxes

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    Subscription to self host? lol. Am I missing something?

    Pistcow ,

    Your wallet?

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    I’ll pay a flat fee, but not a per user fee.

    Jajcus ,

    Subscription to a software is not mutually exclusive with self-hosting. Developers deserve to earn money, especially those who do not rely on collecting data, showing ads and enshittification of their cloud platform.

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    I’ll pay a flat fee.

    holycrap ,

    I’m self hosting rocket and I never gave them a dime

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    I have 400 users though.

    holycrap ,

    Sounds like rocket won’t be a good fit for you then.

    ryguyflyguy ,

    Zulip is pretty nice

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    Why are they charging?

    essteeyou ,

    So they don’t go out of business.

    ryguyflyguy ,

    Unless you’re setting it up for a business, the free tier should be enough. They have options for both self-hosting and hosted versions

    tsonfeir ,
    @tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

    It’s a business with 300 users, but only about 50 of them would even use it. The others DO need accounts for the one time per month they login. But with their pricing, and SSO plan, that’s $3000/m

    What… the… fuck.

    I am in the wrong business lol.

    possiblylinux127 ,

    Maybe Matrix

    gadgetroid ,
    • Nextcloud Talk
    • Mattermost
    • Matrix
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