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ExcessShiv ,

Yeah the documentation (if it even exists) of most projects is usually clearly written by people intimately familiar with the project and then never reviewed to make sure it makes sense for people unfamiliar with it. But writing good detailed documentation is also really hard, especially for a specialist because many nontrivial things are trivial to them and they believe what they’re writing is thorough and well explained even though it actually isn’t.

AstralPath ,

The mistake is the assumption of a certain level of end user knowledge.

AlexanderESmith ,

It's easy to forget what other people don't innately know (or can intuit).

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

You have to assume some level of end user knowledge, otherwise every piece of documentation would start with “What a computer does” and “How to turn your computer on.”

I’ve found the best practice is to list your assumptions at the top of the article with links to more detailed instructions.

Flax_vert OP ,

I do agree, manies have I found documentation saying “make a fresh install of Raspbian” as if I’m using the computer for this single issue

(Disclaimer: I am not running matrix on a Raspberry Pi)

vividspecter ,

Another case is listing a huge number of steps to do some task, without acting describing what the end goal for each set of instructions is (common in “how to” guides, and especially ones that involve a GUI).

This means that less technical users don’t really understand what is going on and are just following steps in a rote way, and it wastes the time of technical users since they probably know how to achieve each goal already.

GBU_28 ,

Why’s that a mistake? Not everything is built for a novice

Tja ,

I agree with this. When I publish my code, it is documented for someone in my field with around my level of knowledge. I assume you know DNS, I assume you know what a vector is, I assume you know what a dht is, I assume you know what O(log n) is.

I’m not writing a CS50 course, I’m helping you use the code I wrote.

Might be different for software like libre office which is supposed to be used by anyone, but most software on earth is built with other developers in mind.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

That’s why blog posts rock. Most popular projects will have a dozen blog posts for different configurations. For example, when looking to set up NextCloud, I found docs for almost all combinations of the following:

  • Apache and Nginx configuration
  • running through Docker or directly on the host
  • MariaDB and Postgres configs (and SQLite, with proper disclaimers)
  • Collabora and OnlyOffice config

It does take some knowledge of each of the above if you need one of the few configs that’s not available on a blog post, and some of the posts are outdated, but with a bit of searching almost everything is documented by someone on the internet.

This shouldn’t be necessary (official docs should be more comprehensive), but at least it’s available.

harsh3466 ,

Okay, please point me to the blog posts that helped you with collabora/onlyoffice. Thanks have NEVER been able to get that to work with my nextcloud (currently using the Docker AIO).

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I’m not at the same computer I used to look it up, so I don’t have my search history, but I think this one was pretty decent. I don’t use Traefik, but the rest describes the important bits w/ docker compose. I don’t know much about the AIO image though (I used separate images).

mesamunefire ,

Same with me. I played around with the setup a few times on my local machines. It took quite a bit to get it set up, then I saw an error after a couple of days and gave up. Its easier to just pull down the file and run it locally than use collabora.

cron ,

I’d rather have a great documentation than five different blog posts, where some of them might be outdated, wrong or insecure (and you only find out later).

But yes, they are helpful and easily available for popular software.

teft ,
@teft@lemmy.world avatar

This is why Technical Writer is a full time job.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

It’s also why the humanities are important. Stemlords who brag about not doing literature classes write terrible documentation.

AlexWIWA ,

My CS major required me to take two upper division English classes and I think they helped me more in my career than my upper division CS classes. People forget that documentation is for ourselves too

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I’m really thankful that I had a great English teacher in high school, and that my degree required a technical writing class. Being able to write a coherent email got me further in my career than the technical stuff I learned in college.

AlexWIWA ,

I completely agree. Most peer feedbacks that I get mention my documentation. It has helped me so much

HK65 ,

Maybe, just maybe, people have different strengths and weaknesses and cooperating around our differences is what makes us succeed.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

If you know your weakness is writing documentation, please hire a technical writer.

HK65 ,

That’s exactly what I’m saying, sorry if it came across somehow askew.

My point was there is no point in competing over whose job is “better”, we should be working together.

vividspecter ,

There is a case to be made that people should be a bit more well rounded in general, and not just find a specific niche.

So non-technical people should still have a decent familiarity with computers and maybe be able to do some very basic coding. And technical people should spend some time working on their written and verbal communication.

Because in both cases, it makes people more effective in their roles.

RobotToaster ,
@RobotToaster@mander.xyz avatar

Most open source projects rely on volunteers, and few technical writers volunteer.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

Totally agree. And I’d argue that we don’t even need technical writers. Even if all people do is correct grammar and spelling mistakes it would be helpful, let alone actually writing docs. It’s one of the easiest ways non-technical folks can get involved with open source projects.

JackbyDev ,

Every time I get stuck on something confusing I’m a README and figure it out I try to submit a patch that makes it more explicit.

GBU_28 ,

If the documentation is sufficient for the intended audience, it’s good enough.

floofloof ,

I think this is why the “my code documents itself” attitude appeals, even though it’s almost never enough. Most developers just can’t write, nor do they want to.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

The problem with “It’s self-documenting” is that there are inevitably questions about what it says, and there’s no additional resources to pull from.

JackbyDev ,

“my code documents itself” and “no, our CI system doesn’t upload the source jars to Artifactory, why?”

Tja ,

Humanities are very important. Robots are not yet capable of flipping burgers!

Natanael ,

Robots can definitely flip burgers.

Some can even do it twice!

marcos ,

That’s just sloppiness.

The information that familiarity gives you is “WTF does this field means”, and it’s the only thing that’s actually there. How you get a value and how a value is formatted are things no amount of expertise will save you from having to tell the computer, and thus you can’t just forget about.

(And let me guess, the software recommended install is a docker image?)

SexualPolytope ,
@SexualPolytope@lemmy.sdf.org avatar
wick ,

Bold of you to assume I know how to read!

hperrin ,

I don’t think it’s (just) that. It’s also a different skill set to write documentation than code, and generally in these kind of open source projects, the people who write the code end up writing the documentation. Even in some commercial projects, the engineers end up writing the docs, because the higher ups don’t see that they’re different skill sets.

bl_r ,

This is why I did a “walkthrough test” when I had to write documentation on this sort of thing. I’m a terrible technical writer, so this shit is necessary for me.

I grabbed my friend who knows enough about computers to attempt this, but not enough about infrastructure to automatically know what I meant when I was too vague.

Took two revisions, but the final document was way easier to follow at the end

AlexWIWA ,

“set all environment variables”

mesamunefire ,

More recently its go to discord for the env…no joke.

AlexWIWA ,

My face actually dropped when I read this. I will be so mad if I ever encounter this live.

mesamunefire ,

It sucks…and seems to be catching on. Ive seen a quite a few on GitHub that are now referencing using it instead of the issue tracker.

AlexWIWA ,

That is so depressing. Literally a markdown file in the repo would be a better issue tracker.

Archer ,

Don’t forget to run your shell over Discord!

AlexWIWA ,

This is cursed, but also cool. Hijack another platform for your authentication

Natanael ,

Exclusively using Discord as a support channel should get you banned from the internet

JackbyDev ,

Reminds me of the time I asked a question about a Magic: The Gathering card tomy local game store’s Facebook page. The card was Sublime Archangel. I asked what happened if it gave a creature Exalted that already had one. Someone sarcastically replied that it already says it on the card. I was a new player, how was I supposed to parse the phrase “If a creature has multiple instances of exalted, each triggers separately”? For all I knew that could mean that they didn’t stack because they would need to trigger together. I didn’t have the vocabulary to understand those things.

I try to remember this when explaining what I might believe are simple concepts to people because that person really upset me.

Presi300 ,
@Presi300@lemmy.world avatar

100% Agree, it feels like most documentation is written in a way that expects you to already know what it’s talking about… When it’s the documentation’s job to teach me about it.

KillingTimeItself ,

this is just because it’s webhosted, anything that does anything on the web sucks and is terrible, everything else is actually so much better it’s fucking baffling to me.

web 2.0 is dead to me. web 3.0 won’t get off of the ground, we need web 2 electric boogaloo

Presi300 ,
@Presi300@lemmy.world avatar

2020 called, they want their opinion back I respectfully disagree

KillingTimeItself ,

2002 called*

and yes, they do want their opinion back, because the internet fucking sucks.

Presi300 ,
@Presi300@lemmy.world avatar

If you hate it so much… why are you on it atm?

KillingTimeItself ,

because there’s also a lot of good stuff on the internet. There was very little on the internet in 2002, and yet people still used it because it was cool. There is a shit ton of information on the internet now, most of which is garbage, and the rest is somewhere between mediocre, or decent, and some of it being genuinely good.

If you hate living, why even bother living? It’s a question of the ages. What’s the point of living if there is no grander purpose? Surely it means nothing, right?

riquisimo ,

This reminds me of when I sent someone a program in a zip folder. Windows now opens zip folders by default, and it looks just like any other folder.

So of course they opened the zip and double clicked the exe, but everyone knows you can’t open an exe inside a zip folder (at least, if the exe depends on the folders and files around it). If you try to, windows will extract the exe into a temp space, but leave all the dependencies behind. So the exe promptly crashes.

I didn’t think I needed to specify “you need to extract the contents of the zip folder first, then run the exe.” It feels like saying “you need to take the blender out of the box before you can use it. And not just the _base _ of the blender, you have to take out all the parts.

Some things just feel so much like second nature that we forget.

unrelatedkeg , (edited )

Doesn’t Windows give a popup saying “Do you want to extract the folder before running the executable” anymore?

Edit: typo (funning to running)

bleistift2 ,

No, it does.

riquisimo ,

Perhaps this occurred in the small window of time when it had been implemented and it didn’t ask, or perhaps they just said no.

Regardless, I had to troubleshoot

Appoxo ,
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Not that I know of. If I know it correctly (not doing it very often as I usually extract the whole content anyway) it just asks if I want to run the file.
But I could be very wrong.

DarkCloud ,

There should be instructions that range from beginner, where every little step is included as well as major details as to why - all the way up to expert, which are just a few sentences.

nexussapphire ,

Unless it’s a company, good luc…

Hay, how would you like writing documentation for all these open source projects? We would be ever greatful, you could even put your name in the credits!

shimdidly ,

I totally and completely blame Microsoft for this. They do so many other ridiculous things in the name of not confusing the average tech illiterate user.

Clicking a Zip file and having it transparently open and treating it like a regular folder when it is not. This. THIS is borderline criminal.

Appoxo , (edited )
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Propose a better way to browse the contents of a zip folder in a native 1st party way

darklamer ,
@darklamer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

The operating system could mount it as a virtual drive, then all its contents could be used directly just like any regular folder.

Appoxo ,
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Imo not really noob-user friendly.
My proposal: Keep current behaviour and make a prompt if the user tries to run an executable. Prompt should be something like “You are trying to open an executable, would you like to extract the whole folder in the current directory?”. This way the user can still browse the zip with relative ease.
Upside from Windows: We have only a handful of extensions unlike (afaik) Linux where everything can be made executable and be run.

darklamer ,
@darklamer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Imo not really noob-user friendly.

In what way? It would make it entirely invisible that the archive file isn’t just a normal folder, it would be possible to use it just as if it were. What would be unfriendly about that?

riquisimo ,

Have a popup text line in explorer that says “you are browsing inside of a compressed file, you must extract the contents to use them” or something. The functionality is already there, when you go to “network” it says “network sharing and discovery is turned off, click here to turn it on”

shimdidly ,

Something like this would be helpful:

files.catbox.moe/ypayke.mp4

Appoxo ,
@Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Perfect.

blind3rdeye , (edited )

In many ways, the silky-smooth convenience offered by modern computer software makes everything much harder to learn about and understand. For anyone that used zip files before this Windows feature, the problem is obvious - but for younger people it’s not obvious at all. Heck, a lot of people can’t even tell whether or not a file is locally on their computer - let alone whether it is compressed in some other file.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

One of the few things that Mac kind of got right. Every application is actually a deep tree with all kinds of crap all over the place but they never let the user see that.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Protip: Use Conduit instead of Synapse. It’s significantly lighter than Synapse, easier to run, and I guess you can be a cool kid by running something written in Rust. The documentation is even worse though :/ conduit.rs

HoornseBakfiets ,

Dendrites install process it well documented

matrix-org.github.io/dendrite/…/install

Written in go for simplicity

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

Dendrite is still in beta and isn’t feature-complete. I tried all three (Synapse, Dendrite and Conduit) and Conduit worked the best for me - I found it to be the most reliable and use the least amount of RAM. It also uses an embedded database (RocksDB) which makes setup a bit easier.

I tried joining several large Matrix rooms from my server, and the experience with Synapse was dreadful. It was using 100% of one core for long periods of time. In some cases it would just fall over and not join the room. Dendrite and Conduit are better in that regard.

Conduit’s weak point is its documentation. I had to read Synapse’s documentation to understand a few key concepts. I’ve been meaning to help write docs for Conduit but just haven’t had time. I’ve got a PR to improve the styling of the docs at least, but need to do some tweaks to it.

Voroxpete ,

I write technical documentation and training materials as part of my job, and the state of most open source documentation makes me want to stab people with an ice pick.

matzler ,

Do you have some reading recommendations on how to write good documentation, e.g. readmes for end users?

Enkrod ,

Yes @Voroxpete, please do share recommendations

SynopsisTantilize ,

Yes. Here: "1.You aren’t writing an SOP for smart or even capable people., every. Single. Person. Needs their hand held all the way through every step regardless of technical skill. "

“2.if you didnt state it needed to be done in the SOP, it will not be done when the end user follows the SOP”

“3.MAKE someone else run through your SOP without you being involved. If they can successfully achieve what they needed using your SOP > congrats. If not > fix the errors that brought you to this mess.”

“4. Everyone is fucking stupid, be clear, and verbose.” We’re talking about where the start menu is, clicking on the “OK” for prompts, how to spell and type things out.

Change my given values per SOP and what it’s for. But those are my main tenants.

brognak ,

In elemental school we had to write instructions on how to make a pb&j sandwich. The teacher then acted out your instructions literally, without adding or removing a step. I don’t think there was a single sandwich made that day.

SynopsisTantilize ,

Beautiful lmao

corsicanguppy ,

The PB&J sandwich is a valuable lesson. It needs to be taught to young and old alike.

pycorax ,

They should make any developers who are required to write documentation go through this step. It’ll be an interesting day and you’ll actually learn something… I hope.

sunstoned ,

Excellent notes. If I could add anything it would be on number 4 – just. add. imagery. For the love of your chosen deity, learn the shortcut for a screenshot on your OS. Use it like it’s astro glide and you’re trying to get a Cadillac into a dog house.

The little red circles or arrows you add in your chosen editing software will do more to convey a point than writing a paragraph on how to get to the right menu.

funkless_eck ,

I would also add that you need to explain out-of-home steps, too.

I’m not an idiot but I didn’t go to school for compsci or similar and I don’t do it as a job. So frequently the instructions will go

  • Get your IP address by entering this command
  • Type your IP address in this line
  • Now forward any chosen port to your proxy of choice and don’t forget to check your firewall settings!

My sibling in Eris, most people dont know any of those words.

SynopsisTantilize ,

Absolutely! But I use markdown / Obsidian for my SOPs so images are kinda obnoxious to format. But yes!

IronKrill ,

I agree, but I don’t think images should be relied on as the primary communicator. I have seen far too many forums/websites/docs with broken images because the host went down. That and archivers are more likely to fail at saving images. Explain it using text and give a reference image to further display the point.

Voroxpete ,

I’ll see about digging up recommendations if I can, but I’m on my phone right now.

My biggest single piece of advice would be this: Understand that your reader does not share your context.

What this means is that you have to question your assumptions. Ask yourself, is this something everyone knows, or something only I know? Is this something that’s an accepted standard, or is it simply my personal default? If it is an accepted standard, how widely can I assume that accepted standard is known?

A really common example of this in self-hosting is poorly documented Docker instructions. A lot of projects suffer from either a lack of instructions for Docker deployment, because they assume that anyone deploying the project has spent 200 hours learning the specifics of chroot and namespaces and can build their own OCI runtime from scratch, or needlessly precise Docker instructions built around one hyper-specific deployment method that completely break when you try to use them in a slightly different context.

A particularly important element of this is explaining the choices you’re making as you make them. For example a lot of self-hosted projects will include a compose file, but will refuse to in any way discuss what elements are required, and what elements are customisable. Someone who knows enough about Docker, and has lots of other detailed knowledge about the Linux file system, networking, etc, can generally puzzle it out for themselves, but most people aren’t going to be coming in with that kind of knowledge. The problem is that programmers do have that knowledge, and as the Xkcd comic says, even when they try to compensate for it they still vastly overestimate how much everyone else knows.

OK, I said I’d try for examples later, but while writing this one did come to mind. Haugene’s transmission-openvpn container implementation has absolutely incredible documentation. Like, this is top tier, absolutely how to do it; haugene.github.io/docker-transmission-openvpn/

Starts off with a section that every doc should include; what this does and how it does it. Then goes into specific steps, with, wonder of wonders, notes on what assumptions they’ve made and what things you might want to change. And then, most importantly, detailed instructions on every single configuration option, what it does, and how to set it correctly, including a written example for every single option. Absolutely beautiful. Making docs like this is more work, for sure, but it makes your project - even something like this that’s just implementing other people’s apps in a container - a thousand times more usable.

(I’ve focused on docker in all my examples here, but all of this applies to non-containerized apps too)

winterayars ,

That really is a good piece of documentation.

KillingTimeItself ,

as a chronic documentation reader, the best advice i can give is to document everything Anything that the user can and will potentially interact with, should be extensively documented, including syntax and behavior. Write it like you’re coming back to the project in 5 years after having done nothing and you want to be able to skip right to using it. When we build something ourselves, we often hold a bit of internal knowledge from the design process that never quite goes away, so it’s almost always a lot easier for us to reverse engineer something we’ve made, than it is for someone else with zero fore-knowledge to do it themselves.

Generally this can be a bit of a nightmare, but if you minimize the user facing segment it’s not all that bad, because it’s usually pretty minimal, and what would otherwise be a handful of pages, turns into 10 or maybe 15.

as for existing documentation, the i3wm user guide is really good, it’s pretty minimalist but it leaves you enough to be able to manage.

ByteOnBikes ,

as a chronic documentation reader, the best advice i can give is to document everything Anything that the user can and will potentially interact with, should be extensively documented, including syntax and behavior.

I don’t know about that. I’ve read some terrible documentation that had everything under the sun. Right now in the library I’m using, the documentation has every available class, every single method, what it’s purpose.

But how to actually use the damn thing? I have to look up blog posts and videos. I actually found someone’s website that had notes about various features that are better than the docs.

There’s a delicate balance of signal vs noise.

KillingTimeItself ,

yeah, it also helps knowing how to use the thing, but i consider that to be “basic documentation” personally.

Knowing how to set something up is nice, but knowing how to use it properly after setting it up is even nicer.

IronKrill ,

Well a good indicator is if I have to check the source code of a packaged program to understand what something does, the documentation is not good enough. And yes I’ve had to do this far too much.

corsicanguppy ,

have to check the source code

Use the source, Luke.

But yeah: disappointing. I just swapped out my Chef ZFS module because, looking at the source, it was incomplete in ways I didn’t want to rat-hole and extend while this other two-piece kit was there.

I should use the source earlier.

Anonymouse ,

You’re doing God’s work!

Over my career, it’s sad to see how the technical communications groups are the first to get cut because “developers should document their own code”. No, most can’t. Also, the lack of good documentation leads to churn in other areas. It’s difficult to measure it, but for those in the know, it’s painfully obvious.

vonbaronhans ,

Jesus, technical people are some of the worst communicators I’ve ever worked with.

It’s not necessarily their fault though. Y’know who goes into technical jobs? People who often prefer to work with machines, physical stuff, laws of nature, that’s who. And often because it’s MUCH easier than working with people, at least for them.

On top of that, soft skills are HARD. Communication is HARD. It comes easier for some, but it’s a skill like any other. It’s the technical socialites, the diplomatic devs who become the best managers and leaders, due to the rarity of their hybrid skillsets.

I’m in the middle. Just technical enough to mostly understand the devs and understand the implications of plans, and just enough soft skills to turn that into decent documentation, emails, and working with clients.

SUCKS that I’ve gotten a taste of project management and hated the absolute fuck out of it. I probably would’ve been decent at it otherwise.

Entropywins ,

“Well–well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don’t have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can’t you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?”

corsicanguppy ,

SUCKS that I’ve gotten a taste of project management and hated the absolute fuck out of it. I probably would’ve been decent at it otherwise.

Good PMs are rare, and precious. You could maybe give it another …

emails

oh, nevermind. :-P

ByteOnBikes ,

I used to mock people who make YouTube videos that literally just walk through the documentation. Like bro, get some reading comprehension!

But then when I fumbled with some self hosting tutorials, those YouTube videos were the only thing that made sense, because they’re explaining why and how.

Sorry y’all.

corsicanguppy ,

I worked alongside some technical writers in the early post-y2k years at SCO. This was before they sued IBM for code misuse and died by a million legal and PR cuts, thanks to the ‘independent news’ site launched by a ‘recent ex-employee’ to reframe things then and rewrite history after.

We had about 15 tech writers in the company, which when I first arrived seemed like a LOT. I’d never met one, and I’d taken a single tech writing course in college as a filler and found it unchallenging work; so I didn’t value them at the time aside from filling a necessary role that your average nerd could surely fill. Then I saw their work; and it was amazing. It’s one of the product’s strong points, and 20 years later it’s still so head-and-shoulders above the similar offerings by others and since, that it’s a joy to read when I come across it.

Quite simply put, technical writers explain something in a logical, sensible way, where jargon doesn’t blind-side the reader and layout and language are consistent and easy. Hell, spelling is correct; which is a big win over 90% of the current stuff. Tech writers are writers as Lance L said, and thus know about adjective order, prepositional placement, the difference between ‘backup’ and ‘back up’ and all its similar terms; and of course know why e-mail and traffic do not get an S as nouns - ever - even if the popular kids make everyone say it without thinking.

It’s all simple-sounding stuff, and I was fooled into believing it was mundane; but when put together and written with an eye toward a common style it takes a stressful reader looking for a process or a parameter and induces calm for that brief moment required to get into the doc and find the sought-after bit.

Honestly, like the mentors we lost as a working society in the post-y2k bust when the c-suite cleared the ranks of things they didn’t understand, the loss of good technical documentation has a generational effect and will take a massive, sustained effort to reverse.

Couldbealeotard ,
@Couldbealeotard@lemmy.world avatar

Do you have any tips for writing professional documentation? I want to do some for my workplace but it’s hard to know where to start, how to arrange it, etc

pycorax ,

The worst is when it’s buried in Github issues or in a header file with thousands and thousands of lines of code. Yes I’m looking at you DearImGui, your documentation is awful and I’m already being generous.

ShortFuse ,

I just recently started working with ImGui. Rewrite compiled game engines to add support for HDR into games that never supported it? Sure, easy. I can mod most games in an hour if not minutes.

Make the UI respond like any modern flexible-width UI in the past 15 years? It’s still taking me days. All of the ImGui documentation is hidden behind closed GitHub issues. Like, the expected user experience is to bash your head against something for hours, then submit your very specific issue and wait for the author to tell you what to do if you’re lucky, or link to another issue that vaguely resembles your issue.

I know some projects, WhatWG for one, follow the convention of, if something is unclear in the documentation, the issue does not get closed until that documentation gets updated so there’s no longer any ambiguity or lack of clarity.

h4lf8yte ,

But this is some Docker shit. For myself Docker always feels a little corporate. It’s just not very conventional with these multiline commands just to run a command inside a container. Especially the obligatory “-it” to fucking see anything. It’s not really straight forward. But if you get used to it and you can make a lot of aliases to use it more easily.

corsicanguppy ,

Docker always feels a little corporate.

I work in an ‘essential service’ environment for my main gig, where lots of checks and cross-checks need to exist. And it’s one that’s been under constant low-grade attack forever as it contains a LOT of tasty PII (personal info) and therefore has regs hammering it into shape. Docker cannot play here - and neither can Debian, actually, nor its derivatives - because it lacks the signed validation available in peer products sharing its space. As soon as the adults show up and notice a product with reduced validation is in place where a better one exists, the people owning that system have to write a life-cycle plan to upgrade, and it’s reviewed at an almost punitive frequency.

So, if you’re saying it’s a little too Corporate, I’m thinking you mean ‘suits and power lunches’ and not ‘large scale management of crucial systems and essential data’. True?

h4lf8yte ,

Tbh, I’ve never worked in such an environment. I know somebody who told me similar things and I would love to hear more about this to form my own opinion on this. But it’s just not that deep. When I say corporate, I mean it’s full of GUIDs and only machine-readable names, commands and configs. It’s also most of the time not designed with the flexibility in mind and covers only the most commonly (used by the company supporting it) use cases. It just doesn’t have the free spirit which most of the open source tools, which are designed with humans in mind, have. If you need to supply a parameter to get output from a command that is often run manually while you could also have one to deactivate output for script usage. This seems like the wrong way to go.

jetsetdorito ,

this meme got so much funnier after I realized it was synapse/matrix

Opisek ,

Setting up synapse is particularly painful.

Presi300 ,
@Presi300@lemmy.world avatar

I mean… Bad documentation isn’t specific to selfhosting.

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

They’re not long about matrix docs though. I tried to set it up a few years ago and it was irritating enough that I never got through it.

Most Dockers aren’t that bad though.

nexussapphire ,

The dankest depths of archlinux wiki. Written by a guy so far gone, so war harden by reading through source code and poorly written technical documentation, ancient forums, leaving no stone unturned. A task so twisted it drives most men crazy.

1% of arch users will ever need this wiki and few have gone through this Herculean task. For them, the first draft is enough, it’s all you can ask of a mind so twisted and broken. Alas it’s as unreadable as the source code and as hard to understand as the forum post from 2009.

caseyweederman ,

Step one: use Dendrite instead.
Step two: come back and help me set up my Dendrite instance, it’s definitely not easier.

milicent_bystandr ,

Step one: email must be much easier, I’ll just make an email server instead.

Step two: screw this, I’m writing letters and posting them.

Archer ,

Isn’t running your own SMTP server effectively impossible nowadays?

AHemlocksLie ,

Running a server is very doable. There are packages to deploy and configure almost everything for you and removing a ton of headache.

Getting your email recognized as not spam by the major providers is pretty much impossible. You need all sorts of stuff to help verify integrity including special DNS records and public identity keys, but even if you do everything right, your mail can very easily get black holed before it even reaches a user’s inbox because of stupid shit like someone abused your rented server’s IP years ago, and you can’t seem to get it off everyone’s lists.

Email as a decentralized tool has effectively been ruined by spam and anti-spam measures. You’re effectively forced to use a provider because it’s near impossible to make your outgoing mail work as an individual. I think some of those anti-spam measures are anticompetitive, but I do think some are just desperate attempts to reduce the massive flow of spam.

zrk ,

It’s not impossible, many people I know and myself successfully self host their email. Yes it’s not trivial, and yes the ip reputation can be annoying to deal with (but it’s possible to cycle to another server to get another ip), but apart from that, if following the best practices (SPF, DKIM, DMARC, proper setup of the mailserver) once it’s set up it can run for years without issue.

To set things straight, I’m not saying that it is easy, but it’s also not impossible, and only giving up will further contribute to centralized email provider monoculture.

Not for everyone, but for those who can, I feel they should.

GBU_28 ,

What’s confusing here? Break down the steps and parts of the command

doodledup ,

Wtf do they mean by shared secret for example?

GBU_28 ,

In this example it is a config value that the software expects to be present, I’m guessing based on the screenshot it is to be added to the homeserver.yaml

AstralPath ,

Honestly, as a newbie to Linux I think the ratio of well documented processes vs. “draw the rest of the fucking owl” is too damn high.

The rule seems to be that CLI familiarity is treated as though its self-evident. The exception is a ground-up documented process with no assumptions of end user knowledge.

If that could be resolved I think it would make the Linux desktop much more appealing to wider demographics.

That said, I’m proud to say that I’ve migrated my entire home studio over to linux and have not nuked my system yet. Yet… Fortunately I have backups set up.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Linux on the desktop almost never needs CLI interaction though. Maybe you’ll need to copy/paste a command from the internet to fix some sketchy hardware, but almost everything works OOTB these days.

However, self-hosting isn’t a desktop Linux thing, it’s a server Linux thing. You can host it on your desktop, but as soon as you do anything remotely server-related, CLI familiarity is pretty much essential.

AstralPath ,

That depends on your use case for desktop linux of course. For me, yabridge is the tool I needed to run VSTs on Linux. Its CLI only as far as I know.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m not afraid of the CLI. Its just some tools are assuming the end user is a server admin or someone with deeper than the upper crust knowledge of how Linux works.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

yabridge

Ah, that’s a pretty niche use-case. But yeah, the deeper you go, the more you’ll have to rely on the CLI.

Damage ,

I always update via CLI 'cause most GUI tools are slow and buggy, so…

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I do too, but the GUI tools do work.

acockworkorange ,

We hold these truths to be self evident

fubbernuckin ,

If only i knew the truths 😞

hactar42 ,

Don’t forget the situations where you find a good blog post or article that you can actually follow along until halfway through you get an error that the documentation doesn’t address. So you do some research and find out that they updated the commands for one of the dependency apps, so you try to piece together the updated documents with the original post, until something else breaks and you just end up giving up out of frustration.

Someonelol ,
@Someonelol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

That sounds an awful lot like modifying an ESP32 script I’ve been trying to follow from a YouTube tutorial published a while back. Research hasn’t uncovered anything for me to troubleshoot the issue so it’s a really shit experience.

Archer ,

Pre-systemd tutorials 💀

winterayars ,

That shouldn’t be too bad if you understand systemd though, right? Or is there something weird i’m missing? Do you have an example guide that illustrates the problem?

Flax_vert OP ,

CLI familiarity is fine. CD, Nano, mkdir, rm. I am proficient with that. But I am not necessarily proficient with Docker (went with it because it worked nicely for another thing which was well documented and very straight forward). It’s just I’m trying to self host stuff. Some things like Wordpress and Immich are straightforward. Some things aren’t like Matrix and Mastodon. Lemmy is also notoriously bad.

desentizised ,

I think if you’re talking wider demographics your model OSs are (obviously) Windows and macOS. People buy into that because CLI familiarity isn’t required. Especially with Apple products everything revolves around simplicity.

I do dream of a day when Linux can (at least somewhat) rival that. I love Linux because I am (or consider myself) intricately familiar with it and I can (theoretically) change every aspect about it. But mutability and limitless possibilities are not what makes an OS lovable to the average user. I think the advent of immutable Linux distros is a step in the right direction for mass adoption. Stuff just needs to work. Googling for StackOverflow or AskUbuntu postings shouldn’t ever be necessary when people just want to do whatever they were doing on Windows with limited technical knowledge.

However on another note, if you’re talking a home studio migration, not sure what that entails, but it sounds rather technical. I don’t want to be the guy to tell you that CLI familiarity is simply par for the course. Maybe your work shouldn’t require terminal interaction. Maybe there is a certain gap between absolutely basic linux tutorials and the more advanced ones like you suggest. Yet what I do want to say is that if you want to do repairwork on your own car it’s not exactly like that is supposed to be an accessible skill to acquire. Even if there are videos explaining step by step what you need to do, eventually you still need to get your own practice in. Stuff will break. We make mistakes and we learn from them. That is the point I’m trying to get at. Not all knowledge can be bestowed from without. Some of it just needs to grow organically from within.

atzanteol ,

It’s not their job to teach you how to use docker.

doodledup ,

That’s the kind of arrogant attidude that makes many docs of open-source projects so shitty. If you think that preliminary knowledge about something is required then at least share a link to a source where you can learn it. Docs that require you to puzzle the missing pieces together on your own are shitty docs. A good documentation is a documentation that everyone understands, regardless of their level of knowledge.

atzanteol ,

No - you’re not installing an app from the App Store. You’re running services now. There needs to be some minimum assumed knowledge about what that entails. And if you don’t have that knowledge you should expect to seek it out separately.

And if you’re too lazy or think “gee that’s difficult” then guess what? Self-hosting’s not for you. No shame - go pay for a service instead.

raspberriesareyummy ,

you lost me at “docker”. The only people using docker are morons and those that trust software by morons.

Isoprenoid ,

Hey! That’s “Mr Moron” to you.

raspberriesareyummy ,

I have no mistress, and I know no misters.

doodledup ,

What’s bad about Docker? It’s secure and easy to setup.

Your hate comment lacks vital information just like the docs shared by OP.

raspberriesareyummy ,

While security has nothing to do with my disgust for docker and people advocating its use, docker adds a layer of complexity, which means it is not necessarily more secure.

What is extremely bad about docker:

  1. it enables extremely shitty configuration control on the side of a developer. There are way too many developers who have a chaotic approach to configurations, and instead of being forced to write a proper installation and configuration guide from scratch, and thereby making themselves(!) aware of active configuration changes they made to make their system work, they just roll out the docker container they develop in, without remembering most of the configurations they made. Which, naturally, means that they are unable to assist in troubleshooting problems or reproduce issues that users might have.

In general, if you can’t write a good user manual, or at least clearly identify needed dependencies and configurations, you should not be developing software for other people.

  1. it combines the disadvantages of a VM (shitty performance) and running directly on the host OS (sandboxing is not nearly as good as on a VM)
  2. it creates insane bloat, by completely bypassing the concept of shared libraries and making people download copies of software they already have on their system
  3. it adds a lot of security risks because the user would have to not only review the source code they are compiling and installing, but also would have to scan all the dependencies and what-not, and would basically have to trust the developer and/or anyone distributing an image that they did not add any malware.
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