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[Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?

Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL

Blackmist ,

It’s not veganism we hate, it’s the stereotypical preachy vegans, acting like farming is the equivalent of the holocaust.

You don’t tell me what to eat, I won’t tell you what to eat, everyone’s a winner.

Natanael ,

“do-gooder derogation”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation

Blackmist ,

I think that hinges on them actually being morally superior, and for the rest of us it’s simply not a moral issue.

It’s not like all meat eaters are wandering about wring our hands like we know it’s wrong but it’s just so delicious. It’s just food. There’s no more to it than that.

Teppichbrand , (edited )

Your ideology has a name and it’s called Carnism

UckyBon ,

The slaughtered animals will thank you in heaven 🙏

vodkasolution ,

I’m also an atheist

IzzyScissor ,

Everyones a winner

Riiiight up until the Earth becomes uninhabitable for humans because we’re doing shit like destroying the Amazon rainforest for more cattle farmland, but sure!

dream_weasel ,

I mean, you are basically always in a group that is fucking the planet or society to some measure or another. Tell me about your religious choice, your political affiliation, your operating system/ phone / perspective on privacy, your opinion on nature vs nurture (or education vs indoctrination), and your perspective on micro- and macro-economic policy and I’ll be happy to tell you were and how you’re a giant irredeemable piece of shit.

IzzyScissor ,

No thanks!

That’s the fallacy called “whataboutism” where you point out other issues that exist as a reason to not solve the current problem we’re talking about.

dream_weasel ,

I would absolutely agree with you if there was only one surefire way to making earth uninhabitable, but luckily we’ve got several of those on the table at once.

vodkasolution ,

Let’s hope the sea level will go up so much to kill us all before that /s

antlion ,
@antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

There is no life without death. In order to feed vegans, countless insects must die. In order for agriculture to exist in any form, we must wage war against nature (and win). For example, coconut oil is a terrible vegan product. If vegans are complacent about killing insects and ravaging natural habitats, why not kill and eat crustaceans and mollusks - they’re not all that different in terms of neurons. We can keep stepping up the level of consciousness - fish, etc… when does it become unacceptable?

The next question I would ask, is whether death is always equal to suffering. Death can be painless. Some vegans don’t eat honey because many honey bees are treated horribly. What if they’re not? Also, if you feel that way as a vegan, you shouldn’t eat anything pollinated by bees (try not to starve). Some animals have good lives and painless deaths. If there’s no financially viable market for animal products of happy animals (by vegan boycotting), we’ll be left with only industrial animal agriculture. Do you think a deer would rather be ripped apart by a puma, hit by a car, shot by a bullet, or become elderly and senile - abandoned by the herd to die alone in a field, picked apart by buzzards. Nature is brutal as fuck. Death by human is not the worst outcome for many animals.

The final thing I’d assert is that animal agriculture has an important role in the overall food system. Pigs, cows, and chickens are fed a lot of agricultural byproducts, like spent brewing grains or corn stalks, and their manure is used as non-petroleum fertilizer. Many animals are raised on land that is too hilly and rocky to farm any other way. Our industrial food system is like a artificial ecosystem of its own. Each piece of the industrial food web has a role, and you can’t simply remove all the animals - you’d be overwhelmed with green waste, reliant on petroleum fertilizer, and many would go hungry.

Ethical veganism is idiotic because it places human morality onto nature. It’s a child-like misunderstanding of the real world. The reality is that for you to be fed, the natural world will suffer. Don’t draw a line in the sand and think you’re living a better life. You’re an ostrich with your head buried in sand.

Freeganism on the other hand, is something we could use a lot more of (25-50% more). The only thing worse than raping and killing animals to feed ourselves, is that there’s so much abundance that we throw a lot of it in the trash. Freegans understand the real crime against nature is food waste.

Juice , (edited )

I’m an ex vegan (about 5 years) so I’ve been on both sides if it. Here’s my opinion.

When I was a vegan it was very much a part of my identity. It was something that I thought about 2-3 times (at least) per day when I ate, and any time I went to buy food. I remember being actually insufferable about it for a long time and I’m pretty sure I’ve lost friends over it, being annoying and preach to a friend’s husband and then eventually just not getting invited back for game night. So people are definitely feeling burned/rejected/otherized by vegans who, if not just coming right out and saying it, strongly infer that you are a “bad person” for consuming even small amounts of animal products, or at least let you know that you’re being judged for it. As an ex-vegan I’ve experienced this myself.

On the other hand, non-vegans are also insufferable about food. My friend in college didn’t like cheese. Hated how it tasted, hated the way it felt in his mouth. But he loved pizza. He would often buy pizzas for everyone, with cheese on, pick the cheese off himself, and eat it without. I swear that every time he did this someone would say something about it, “what? You don’t like cheese? Why?!” I personally had to endure a lot of weird questions and looks, and comments when after volunteering for a whole day at a baseball field for my son’s team, and they served pizza after which I just refused. I just quietly didn’t get myself any, and people had like 20 questions about it. I didn’t even bring up that I was a vegan, I just said I wasn’t hungry, which was odd and apparently unacceptable.

Vegans and vegetarians also get judged for their diets, there are plenty of non-v people who will become like preemptively defensive about it, and let you know they think you’re weak and unhealthy. You get otherized and judged, even if you dont care what people eat and you just patiently say that its a personal choice, for health or the environment or whatever. This actually deepens the in-group acceptance/out-group rejection of everyone involved. The next time a vegan has to hear about their choices they’ll be less patient with the person asking; the next time that person eats an egg around a vegan and gets lectured, they’ll be less patient and around and around it goes.

I have theories about why this is, some of which maybe are apparent from what I’ve written. I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted. I’ll get into it if anyone gives a shit.

But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not. This is the thing that drove me away from veganism: I think that vegans are right about a lot of things, but they can’t actually see the world for what it is, they can mostly only see through this lens. This is basically the same problem with liberals, conservatives, religious, atheist, whatever. Its the cult of the individual having eroded any experience of interconnectedness, even though we are interconnected. As such, people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.

perdvert ,

Big point about changes to public discourse and insightful.

Juice ,

Thank you

zalgotext ,

I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn’t share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted.

But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not.

people can’t see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.

Very well put, and agreed on all points, especially the bit about how this sort of in-group/out-group behavior is not limited to food. Veganism/food opinions in general are particularly clear examples of it in action though.

I forget where I first heard this, so unfortunately I can’t give proper credit, but I once heard that we’d all get along better if people learned to say “that’s not for me” instead of “that’s disgusting”, and it’s really stuck with me. Like who cares if someone doesn’t like cheese on their pizza? Picking it off is hurting no one. It’s a food preference, it’s not that serious. Let people enjoy things the way they want to enjoy things. If it isn’t immoral or harmful, let people be. People doing things differently from you is not grounds for you to question or ridicule. Have some empathy, have some respect, have some semblance of open-mindedness, and let people live their lives, man

Juice ,

Right, I agree, have empathy and respect, open mindedness. But without getting into it too deep, you know how do I empathize or respect others when often we don’t empathize or respect ourselves? It’s this involuntary and constant process of turning out and externalizing. Please don’t consider this a call out, just an illustration because I know you don’t mean it this way, but by the end of your thought process you are like out grouping some imagined person who is doing this thing, creating an in group between you and I, and others who still behave this way. And I can be as cognizant as I want about this, but I also commit to these groups, and I have recent examples of this toward ideological groups I encounter in my political organizing. People who I used to not have a problem with, I now am extremely suspect of, because this was done to me. Its like baked into our language, or the ways in which we derive meaning. And maybe to some extent its unavoidable, or at least will be until some severe cultural shift happens that changes our ontology and language.

But many people have noticed, from all walks of life, you will hear, “we have never been more divided.” And yeah sometimes you hear this from people who probably don’t have our best interests at heart. But this campism has only increased since, idk, Trump? COVID? The neoliberal turn of the late 70s early 80s? Who can say. But if that’s true, and this phenomenon has increased over time, then maybe it can decrease as well. I hope so. There’s a lot of changes that need to happen to society, and quickly, but without that respect and empathy you talk about, I worry about what might happen to people. This out grouping can quickly turn into dehumanization and worse if not checked. And I don’t know what to do there except at least try and model that behavior and try and discuss it when I can.

zalgotext ,

by the end of your thought process you are like out grouping some imagined person who is doing this thing, creating an in group between you and I, and others who still behave this way.

Yeah, I’m definitely cognizant of that, but I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing. For me it fits into the “don’t tolerate intolerance” principle. It seems paradoxical, but the way I’ve come to understand it is that sometimes the in-group/out-group divides are unavoidable, but as long as the in-group is tolerant of everything other than intolerance, they’re more “in the right” from a moral sense. If the in-group ends up getting all the people in the out-group to join the in-group, the only group left will ideally be tolerant.

Juice , (edited )

Yeah you’re right it’s okay to have differences and preferences, its the moralizing that causes problems rather than accepting and trying to find commonalities across the divides.

Teppichbrand , (edited )

I get what you are saying and I agree with “thats not for me”. The difference to other personal preferences is that as a carnist, you are paying for literaly billions of our fellow earthlings being killed on an industrial scale. So many that it’s destroying our livelihood. This is not a personal choice anymore, there are victims you choose to not notice, human and non-human. A lot of victims, 1.9 million chickens killed in Germany every day.
Once you realise this and you have the courage to really look beyond the word slaughter with your own eyes, see the inconceivable suffering, this became something I could not push out of my sight anymore. And then you realise it’s everywhere, and everyone is calling themselves animal lovers. So what do you do?

AchtungDrempels ,

That’s a really hungry carnist.

recapitated ,

Because appx 1% of vegans are straight up obnoxious and indignant. And a similar percentage of meat eaters are also.

Then everyone else just mildly gravitates to tribalism but probably doesn’t actually care that much.

afraid_of_zombies ,

It’s the fandom mostly. I like using Linux but I don’t think you are immoral for using windows. Rick and Morty is funny but I don’t think Rick is someone to take any advice from. CrossFit seems to work for most people who stick with it but it is one of many options. I won’t apologize for being an atheist but I don’t think you are stupid for not being one.

The problem with Veganism is the problem with monotheism. There is one proper way to live and all the others are wrong and awful.

That and the lying. I won’t deny that there are farmers who abuse their animals, that is a problem that can be dealt with through the legal system, but you can’t sell me a sack of lies claiming that I abused the cows I milked growing up. Because I know I didn’t.

Objection , (edited )

But what about disagreements that aren’t just about preferences, but about right and wrong? Vegans don’t view it as the type of question that’s like, “Do you like Kirk or do you like Picard?” but rather as the type of question that’s like, “Is it ok to beat your children?” The proper way to live is to not beat children and all other ways are wrong and awful. Framing the question as merely about individual preferences and not about morality is assuming the conclusion.

I won’t deny that there are farmers who abuse their animals, that is a problem that can be dealt with through the legal system, but you can’t sell me a sack of lies claiming that I abused the cows I milked growing up.

The legal system has no interest in addressing the vast majority of animal abuse, and there’s a lot of money in it which means enough political influence to ensure that never changes. The vast majority of produced goods relies on abusive conditions. It is possible to produce animal products without abuse, but removing abuse from the system means less will be produced, which means a reduction in consumption is still necessary.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Cool thanks for confirming exactly what I was saying. Like Christianity, you can not be neutral, the doctrine doesn’t allow it. You follow Jesus and go to heaven or your don’t and go to hell. There is no tolerance with Veganism, there is no live and let live, there isn’t even hate the sin love the sinner since you are after behavior not character or faith. One truth, with one means to truth, with one ethical system and all others have to be wrong and equally wrong.

Surprise surprise non-vegans don’t particularly like being told that are on the same moral footing as children beaters. If it puts you right with your god I give you permission to compare me to one again. I won’t be convinced but hey you got my permission to do it. Unlike one of us in this conversation, I can tolerate people who don’t agree with me.

The legal system has no interest in addressing the vast majority of animal abuse, and there’s a lot of money in it which means enough political influence to ensure that never changes. The vast majority of produced goods relies on abusive conditions. It is possible to produce animal products without abuse, but removing abuse from the system means less will be produced, which means a reduction in consumption is still necessary.

I am sorry morality is difficult. You should file a bug report with someone who cares.

Objection ,

Surprise surprise non-vegans don’t particularly like being told that are on the same moral footing as children beaters. If it puts you right with your god I give you permission to compare me to one again. I won’t be convinced but hey you got my permission to do it. Unlike one of us in this conversation, I can tolerate people who don’t agree with me.

The purpose of the analogy was to establish the difference between disagreements and preference and disagreements about morality, not to put you on “the same moral footing as children beaters” which is an intentional, bad faith mischaracterization. If you’ll look at what I actually said:

Vegans don’t view it as the type of question that’s like, “Do you like Kirk or do you like Picard?” but rather as the type of question that’s like, “Is it ok to beat your children?"

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, I take it.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Reading comprehension not your strong suit, I take it.

Veganism right here folks. Can’t defend their argument without personal attacks. At least Christianity made some pretty looking buildings. What did your religion give to the world besides shit posts?

Objection , (edited )

Bad faith, however, is definitely your strong suit. Going from intentional mischaractarization into whining and playing the victim because I called you out on it is quite a skillful combo to sidetrack away from any serious discussion.

I do think that harping on this stance of “Anytime anyone says anything is bad, it’s basically the same as being a religious nut job” is pretty ridiculous, so I’d advise finding a different angle next time, except that that’s the only thing you’ve got that even resembles an argument, so idk.

dream_weasel ,

As a thread reader here (not really contributor for this part) I see your point and I appreciate it, but I don’t know if it actually helps your case?

Basically you have established a moral high-ground and visceral reaction from the perspective of the non meat eating type and I can empathize with it, but doesn’t every group have this? Like if you said “Oh but it’s not just about birth control it’s about intentionally thwarting human life” as an argument for Catholics being against birth control… I can understand it but it isn’t an argument yeah? It’s an argument if I agree with your perspective, but otherwise I don’t think you’ve done anything different than the guy you replied to from a purely argumentative standpoint: you both gave a perspective and neither of you met in the middle.

From a debate perspective he’s got you by the short hairs because, even though he may not be absolutely right, you’ve made yourself look a little dickish to the rest of us.

Objection ,

I don’t see where I established a moral high ground or provoked a visceral reaction. All I did was establish that vegans see it as a moral question and not just a matter of preference.

dream_weasel ,

What if I told you the quiet part loud? I don’t think every life is fundamentally created equal.

I’m a farm boy turned liberal and if you’re going to argue about climate change and the benefits of a vegetarian diet in that respect, you’ve got the right of it and I’ll eat less meat (I’m trying). If you’re going to say “cow abuse is child abuse!” I will personally come murder a cow for you and eat it with you (or against you, I guess?).

You are barking up the wrong tree and have missed the point whenever you come to this argument. Plants and animals grown for food ARE. FOR. FOOD. and you will not turn me to your way of thinking by crying foul about their treatment. I would love to minimize animal suffering / I am not into animal torture, but you’re just not going to get there unless you’re literally demonstrating widespread suffering for sport of livestock animals. If there was a raccoon outside right now screwing with my dog or my kid or my house or whatever I would absolutely end it and not lose a second of sleep, without considering it’s children or parentage or treatment.

I am who you are dealing with and who you are trying to convert. The “proper way to live” has nothing to do with it. I grow food, I eliminate pests, I eat the food I intended to raise. Cow, corn, pig, dog, cat, unicorn, etc: it gets to grow and flourish as much as I can provide, then it gets harvested to eat, unless it is invasive then it gets summarily removed.

It’s not about callousness or disregard for the beauty of life, my situation has just been fundamentally different than yours unless you also spent childhood raising your own food.

Objection ,

Do I know you?

perdvert ,

Some of the movement’s ideas seem difficult to accept. The more vocal aherents of the movement can be abrasive and very zealous. It can be seen as like vegetarianism taken to an unreasonable extreme for ethical reasons many do not understand or agree with.

bloodfart ,

I cook and eat vegan sometimes. I have a bunch of vegan friends.

Vegans on the internet are really annoying.

Dorkyd68 ,

My ex was vegan. While I have absolutely no problem with the practice of being vegan, she would critique and criticize nearly everything I ate. It was extremely exhausting. Nothing against vegans personally however some of them won’t shut up about it and try to make you feel bad

jol ,

Well… You should feel bad. That’s the whole point of the movement.

pathief ,
@pathief@lemmy.world avatar

This is not how you get people to join your ideas, this is how you push them away further.

jol ,

Same counter arguments people used against blacks, against gays. “If you just looked normal, people wouldn’t discriminate you”. Fuck that. I’m tired of your lame excuses. You just don’t care.

pathief , (edited )
@pathief@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know how you read my comment and concluded that I approve racism or homofobia. It’s these kind of comments that push people away.

Vegan and non vegans are are at the opposite extremes. One only eats meat, the other never eats meat. You can’t insult people into your way. No one wants to have a conversation with you when you just randomly accuse them of homofobia. In your future attempt try going easier and with baby steps. People are more likely to stop eating meat if they take it one step at a time. This ridiculous expectation that someone must change their lifestyle over night or they’re racists… This isn’t the way, statistically speaking. But alas, this is a pointless discussion because you already know this and just want to fight with a stranger on the internet. Have a nice day.

emptiestplace ,

Vegan and non vegans are are at the opposite extremes. One only eats meat, the other never eats meat.

Wow, very interesting! I really admire the way you make sense.

pafu ,

The primary point of the movement should be to stop animal suffering, not making other people feel bad.

While it’s a necessity to make people aware of the cruelty of the animal industry and the harm it does to the planet, there are many ways to get there, and not all of them will work for everyone. The difficulty is in getting people to listen to you and being willing to self reflect their own behavior. Once they do, they will feel bad on their own.

ILikeBoobies ,

You can see who the vegans are in this comment section by trying to make it some moral issue

You can see who isn’t vegan by the comments talking about vegans being annoying

IRL these groups don’t interact as much, if you bring both to a barbecue then you will find the above sentiment again

SapientLasagna ,

Veganism at its core is a moral stance. If not for the moral issues, these people would probably be vegetarian instead. That’s not to say that all vegans are the aggressive evangelist kind, but pretty much all vegans choose their diet out of moral concerns (in addition to health and environmental reasons).

ILikeBoobies ,

That’s great you feel that way but

The other side doesn’t care/think about it/feel that way

The not in your face vegans aren’t in your face so they wouldn’t mention it and remain unknown so they don’t shape people’s perceptions

SapientLasagna ,

What “other side”? Vegans? I suppose there are some who are just sort of “cultural vegans” too, where they don’t have a moral stance, but are vegan because their friends or family are.

I’m not sure if maybe you’re reading more negativity in my comment than I meant. There’s certainly nothing wrong with animal welfare as a moral stance.

ILikeBoobies ,

What “other side”?

Non-vegan

I don’t believe the people who aren’t vegan view their choice as a moral decision

SapientLasagna ,

Many people who aren’t vegan still choose free range eggs, organic beef, fair trade coffee and chocolate.

The 500 mile diet is absolutely a moral choice, even if it includes meat.

Albertans preferentially eating large amounts of Alberta beef is viewed as a virtue there. Veganism is viewed as immoral, unalbertan (amongst some communities).

FiniteBanjo , (edited )

What they really hate is being guilt tripped into changing their dietary habits.

EDIT: To be clear, I support veganism. I’m saying the people who react apprehensively to veganism are choosing willfully ignorant bliss. To choose a high meat diet is to deny reason and give into what the animal in us wants.

UckyBon ,

Because veganism is an inherently right wing activity and exploiting animals a left wing activity. (Do I need to put that /s?)

Smoogs ,

I don’t hate people who are vegans.

I do hate the person who righteously yelled at me about eating meat while I was eating her vegan food at her house which she invited me to. And then proceeded to send me Facebook farm videos that were obviously staged. I worked on a farm… so when I corrected her what actually does happen on a farm Vs what these idiots were staging to get reactions, it was even more disgusting to me that she wasn’t doing any of this for the animals as she claimed but doing it so she could feel important. So she can fuck right off up a mountain.

So no:I don’t hate people who are vegans. I hate self involved, insincere shitheads.

That said yeah, we need to address commercial farming. It’s an issue. We need to cut down the meat products that are getting produced and stop creating diets that get capitalists richer. But also we need to be honest with what is actually happening. No, they do not give hormones to animals on farms. That practice was discontinued prior to the 1990s. We need to out assholes who spread this bullshit online, dampening the real issues as to why introducing more plant based food is necessary. We also have to keep plant based food healthy and not just inject it with sugar ,salt and fat creating the same health issues we had with consuming commercialized meat.

Also I think this is why vegan is a ruined word and why ‘plant-based’ is now becoming a substitute. To replace this damage that many of the self called vegans did that were just as much lying and cheating as the industry they so much hate. two wrongs do not make a right. So I’m all about the pivot away from that dumpster fire

Maggoty ,

This, oh so much. My doctor talking to me about how to keep my heart healthy on the back half of my life did way more than militant vegans ever did. So did the price of the food items… But that’s another story.

HelixDab2 ,

No, they do not give hormones to animals on farms. That practice was discontinued prior to the 1990s.

That’s simply not true in the US. rBGH is absolutely currently used in the US in the dairy industry. source

BugleFingers ,

I don’t mind vegans, or that lifestyle, at all. What I do mind is people who are overtly (and possibly aggressive) in presenting a lifestyle that the feel is “right”. Unfortunately there’s a stereo type with vegans being that way.

Veganism is a big lifestyle choice and the difference to vegetarian is the avoidance of near all animal products if and when possible. Not just in regards to eating meat, but things like a leather wallet too.

Someone has to be careful and on top of their diet and dietary needs to be vegan and properly nourished (even omnivorous people are subject to this malnutrition mind you).

I have some personal differences in views to vegans in regards to the consumption of meat, but rather similar views in how it’s obtained. I do think generally the mass production and lifestyle is not morally correct for the animals. However I would also say humans are naturally omnivorous and eating meat is something that not only is built into our diet but what gave us a fundamental evolutionary advantages.

Animals eat animals and humans are animals. Though if we are sentient enough and empathetic enough creatures we should at least provide a decent life for the animals and utilize all we can so as not so waste them.

Kacarott ,

I respect your viewpoint, but I wanted to point out that I think the argument of “animals do X, therefore it’s ok” isn’t a really good one, imo. In fact I think one of the features of being human is being able to rise above what other animals do, when we think it is a good idea. (Whether it’s a good idea here though, is another topic)

Specal ,

I mean I’m vegan and I’ve got nothing against hunters, like they said we’re animals and animals sometimes eat animals. Most vegans are against animal farming as there is no way to do it humanely on a large scale.

I personally wouldn’t eat a hunted animal, right now but if civilization was to fall it’s fair game.

Kacarott ,

I’m not trying to make a case for or against veganism, or hunting. My point is that “we are animals and animals sometimes do X” implying that makes it ok, is bad logic. Animals also sometimes eat their young, or murder or rape other creatures of the same species.

Now like I said, I’m not arguing against or for veganism here, I think there are good arguments for both sides, I just don’t think that the “we are animals” argument is one of them :)

Specal ,

I was agreeing with you against that thinking, sorry if that wasn’t clear

laverabe ,

Every vegan I’ve ever spoke with is rude, condescending, and Iamverysmart material. Probably due to lack of essential amino acid intake for proper brain function.

Kacarott ,

Calling a group of people condescending, then accusing them of having limited brain function is a little hypocritical doncha think?

laverabe ,

It wasn’t a personal attack. I could see how it could be read that way but the second sentence was a point of science not insult. It’s hard to convey intention in text.

They are just my observations and interactions with vegans, and the science is clear that most vegans have nutritional deficiencies. It is extremely difficult to actually get everything you need without meat, and you essentially have to plan every single meal in a food planner. I know… I’ve tried it and even planned to a tee it is near impossible to have a balanced diet without meat. I wish it was.

Omniforous ,

the science is clear that most vegans have nutritional deficiencies

Source?

From my experience, it takes about the same effort to get a nutritionally complete diet as a vegan as a carnist. The difference tends to be that people compare their current, shitty diet to an unnecessarily restrictive vegan diet.

laverabe ,

A vegan diet - which only contains plant-based foods - can lead to deficiencies in calcium, iodine and other vital mineral nutrients. This is particularly risky for people who need extra nutrients and for growing children and adolescents. For these reasons, the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung (DGE) [German Nutrition Society] advises against following a completely vegan diet.

tk.de/…/vegan-diet-imbalanced-or-healthy-approach…

Omniforous ,

Sorry that doesn’t actually prove that a vegan diet is significantly more difficult to get complete nutrition than a non-vegan diet.

The two mentioned in the block you quoted (calcium and iodine) are often deficient in non-vegan diets as well. According to this analysis only 6 countries in the world meet the daily recommended 1000 mg of calcium per day. Calcium is also present in the easiest changes you can make to your diet (vegan milk in place of cow milk and tofu as a protein). Iodine is difficult to get for any diet, which is why so many jurisdictions put it in salt. It is also usually present in vegan milk.

Regardless, non-vegans tend to be deficient in a totally different subset of nutrients. Both diets need attention in order to get optimal nutrition. On a vegan diet, you need a source of B12, omega 3, and calcium. Most of the other nutrients are covered by commonly fortified foods or are very easy to keep in mind. Non-vegan diets you need to watch for fibre, vitamin D, vitamin E, potassium, magnesium, avoid too much cholesterol, sodium, red meat, and mercury from fish.

Regardless of the diet you choose, you need to put more thought in than the average person in order to have optimal nutrition. Using nutrition to discredit veganism doesn’t work

naevaTheRat ,

It challenges something people have been indoctrinated with and causes them to question their moral character.

Soulg ,

This is pretty much why people get mad and argue, along with many other posts from vegans in this thread. The very obvious disrespect and talking down to, insults, accusations of being bad people.

Kacarott ,

I think part of the issue is people tend to conflate “does something immoral/less moral than an alternative” and “is a bad person”.

I think most meat eaters would acknowledge that meat is inherently worse for the environment, and also less moral due to more animal suffering, than not eating meat. Doing so does not make them bad people, just like owning an iPhone doesn’t make someone a bad person, etc. And yet when the topic of "meat is immoral " comes up, people very quickly seem to think it is an accusation of them being a bad person?

Maggoty ,

Yup, if you want to change someone the last thing you do is accuse them. Instead, point them to material about how healthy a plant based diet is, and point out how cheap it is. Or for guys like me, tactfully, point out you have to eat more actual stuff to get the same amount of calories. So big guys can lose weight eating plant based. If you introduce it in a positive way then people feel supported instead of attacked. That’s where veganism went wrong.

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