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profdc9 ,

Evolution has never stopped. Humans are simply creating new selection pressures. Humans are cruel to each other so that some will kill themselves. This will remain the case until cooperation becomes a dominant survival strategy.

intensely_human ,

Damn dude. I think this too and it’s crazy to see someone else explain this.

Murmur ,

Idk… sounds too much like social Darwinism

Saltblue ,

Yes but evolution is natural, this rat race that pushes people to suicide it’s entirely fabricated.

tweeks ,

Well, cooperation is a dominant survival strategy. But that does not mean it’s fair or that everyone will be an even slightly equally beneficial party.

bobbi_d2 ,

I think others have mentioned this, but I’m disturbed that the article seems more concerned about guns than about the way our society and culture fails older men.

Sure it gets a mention but omg guns.

grayman ,

Get rid of all guns and gun suicides will plummet! It’s just obvious! Can’t you see that?! The problem is GUNS GUNS GUNS. After all, this is an anti gun article, right?! Wait… Why does the article mention suicide?

aesthelete ,

Get rid of all guns and gun suicides will plummet!

Shouldn’t you guys be somewhere crying out mental health in the replies to yet another mass shooting article?

Sure you can kill yourself other ways, and society isn’t great to older men, or men, or women, or infants, or whatever…but guns deliver instant death that is just barely on this side of the line of premeditated.

The rise in suicide rates also coincides with lax gun laws if you have read anything about the subject.

Think about the last time you had a long, lonely night, it was miserable, right? What if you had an instant way of ending it all right that moment at the height of your torment, and that method was within arm’s reach?

Guns can easily turn a bad night into a person’s last night. Expand outreach for mental health and work on improving society in other ways, sure, but continuing to provide ubiquitous, instant means to kill yourself and others does zero to solve any of society’s ills.

wooki ,

What a load of horse shit.

Wedging guns is nothing but disingenuous.

Suicide is caused by depression. Not guns, Depression.

Higher male suicide rates is caused by the fact that men ACT on it more than women. This is well studied and understood by even first year university students in social studies. The only way to stop it from occurring is before men and women ACT on it. Address the cause depression, and it will improve outcomes.

Programs like, “Black dog institute”, “Are you OK”, “Mens shed Associations”, or best yet, clinical help, Break the stigma of men reaching out for help.

aesthelete ,

Higher male suicide rates is caused by the fact that men ACT on it more than women. This is well studied and understood by even first year university students in social studies.

  1. social studies isn’t a fucking college level course, you talking about sociology?
  2. how do you even measure “acting on it” more often? I’ve read several things that said that women attempt suicide more often than men, but men more often “succeed”… Largely because of the means they choose
  3. guns don’t cause suicide depression does is the same shitty argument that assholes like you have with guns don’t kill people, people kill people

Guns are integral to quick, thoughtless suicide, and if you actually look at the statistics vs the policy or do any actual reading it’ll tell you the same despite the gun industry trying to prevent research in the area to increase gun sales.

Yes depression is a problem that ought to be dealt with, but it helps nobody to provide lonely, depressed old men with ubiquitous access and fetishization of instant death.

And lastly, go fuck yourself and your whole tone.🖕

wooki , (edited )
  1. social studies isn’t a fucking college level course, you talking about sociology?

Depending on where you live it is college or ts university, first year

  1. how do you even measure “acting on it” more often? I’ve read several things that said that women attempt suicide more often than men, but men more often “succeed”… Largely because of the means they choose

Death, well established and not studied enough

  1. guns don’t cause suicide depression does is the same shitty argument that assholes like you have with guns don’t kill people, people kill people

Its sad how obsessed you are with guns, really sad

Fact America is not in the top 20 countries for suicide. I would like to think because its quality of life, but like all things its more nuanced.

Guns don’t cause suicide, depression (the big killer) results in suicide and its causes are many. Access to suicidal means may help with a little bit of time sometimes; best case scenario. However if the cause is never addressed the end result will always be the same so just conflating the issue and the cycle continues on.

www.aihw.gov.au/…/suicide-deaths-over-time

Australia got rid of guns in 1996.

The only person fetishizing guns and suicide is you! Stop wedging the desperate to your disingenuous cause,.

aesthelete , (edited )

The only person fetishizing guns and suicide is you! Stop wedging the desperate to your disingenuous cause

You got me, I’m actually a desperate, anti gun lobbyist…a position that pays equally well to a George Soros professional protestor. /s (because you’re an idiot)

Edit: fucking article itself says most involve guns and people are like 🙉🙈

intensely_human ,

The idea of stopping suicide by removing the means is absolutely sick when you think about it.

Removing the means of suicide is the crudest, least helpful method of suicide prevention.

Rediphile ,

It’s also extremely cruel. Like if someone really wants to kill themselves due to ongoing unsolvable pain, they should absolutely have that right. Suicide is a human right.

Sure, of course we should do our best to provide options to solve their pain…even if they feel it is unsolvable, it might not be. It is important we do everything to show them that it might actually be solvable. I’m not denying we need more of those supports for people considering suicide. But like, if they have tried absolutely everything and are in a constant state of pain then only a truly evil person would force them to continue to suffer. It’s fundamentally immoral.

Children are able to understand why putting a suffering dog down in the right course of action, but somehow a majority of adults seem unable to draw the same conclusion around people with incurable terminal illnesses that make people suffer immensely (for example ALS).

creditCrazy ,
@creditCrazy@lemmy.world avatar

Fr in amarica wel fix everything but the thing creating the problem. Baning guns ain’t gonna make people less depressed, less isolated, less valiant and the only people that feel safer are people who didn’t have issues to begin with.

sederx ,

did the americans find out about lemmy? wtf is this comment section??

nucleative ,

This is a really sad state of affairs for older guys.

Imagine a guy who gets to 55+ and takes a look at his life and realize he’s not where he wants to be and it feels like there’s no chance to restart. Maybe he just didn’t get into the housing market in time or start his 401k. Maybe some health issues or divorces blew out his savings.

These are the guys who were out of college right before the world was flipped upside down by technology, so I’m sure a lot of them never thought they had to catch up to keep their career running.

It would be really hard to not see it as a personal total failure, and to be frank their family and peers might see it that way too if they know. It probably feels like standing at the base of Everest when he should have the summit in sight.

His peers are either feeling depressed like him or they are jetting around on holidays most of the time.

Guys are taught most of their life to stuff the emotional things, so the future feels hopeless because he’s in a bubble and doesn’t understand how common this feeling is.

I hope we can find more ways to let guys like this, and all people, know that this feeling is temporary and there is a lot of hope waiting at the next turn.

Maybe he needs a bit of a boost from some antidepressants and someone to talk with who can help him let it all out. Or maybe he just needs a society that sees him as someone with something left to give, who still has jobs to be done, and that’s enough.

wooki ,

Ban guns that will fix the mental health problem…

Sarcasm for those unable to spot click bait. Might as well have titled the story “Death the leading cause of suicide among elderly men”…

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

we should ban rope as well just to be safe

Dra , (edited )

Why does the US mentality always revolve around a single cause?

It’s clear that the availability of an instantaneous way to end your life on a whim with zero effort and zero percieved pain is going to facilitate a lot of suicides. No, banning it wont stop suicide, but it would absolutely reduce them. To suggest otherwise is simply statistically disingenuous, regardless of how much you have the right to bear them or not.

But if guns are part of the US identity and culture then so be it, but that means spending on mental health outcomes and prevention need to dramatically increase.

It’s a cost either way, whichever side of the gun debate you are on

thenightisdark ,

Oh buddy, thinking it’s 0 perceived pain is something I’d like to understand. Why do people think gunshots don’t cause pain?

PsychedSy ,

Nitrogen ftw.

Welt ,

Let’s see how well it goes in Alabama for that death row inmate whose lethal injection they fucked up the first time.

PsychedSy ,

Is that what they’re doing?

Welt ,

npr.org/…/alabama-sets-january-execution-date-usi…

PsychedSy ,

I don’t know how I feel about that. I hate that the state gets to choose who dies, but nitrogen isn’t a bad death.

Imagine feeling like a human for sparing someone a horrendous death.

My friend, we have so long to go.

Welt ,

I think hypoxia is a shitty death regardless - whether drowning or just breathing N2 without O2. CO2 causes gasping, I’d have thought CO might be OK since it’s quick but maybe it’s politically unpopular because it evokes dad in the driveway with the engine running and a hose duct-taped into the cabin. Indeed, a long way to go regardless.

PsychedSy ,

Our bodies trigger on CO. Nitrogen won’t trigger our body to respond.

wooki ,

If you understand suicide even a little bit you would know men do not fuck about when it comes to suicide. There is little in between, no cry’s for help they are rare. guns are a tool to achieve the outcome and the statistics will never change.

So this click bait title is just stupid anti-gun garbage. Men will ALWAYS be the higher suicide rate no matter what.

Up next water is wet.

Dra ,

If you understood even a little bit about suicide you would understand that sucidial ideation proceeds action, and ideation involves stimulus from the immediate locale.

wooki , (edited )

ideation involves stimulus from the immediate locale

locale

What a load of garbage.

If you understood suicide even a little bit you would know that DEPRESSION proceeds action! Wow. The only way to stop suicide is to address the underlying cause: Depression. Depression requires support from, employers, colleagues, family, friends, and most importantly, mental health support services. Its literally that simple. Depression kills all and plenty of studies have found the cause for men is the fact they act on it more. This is not a unique American problem. Why do men act on it? Because its a part of the social and gender values, ingrained into generations.

GiddyGap ,

Toxic masculinity is what you’re describing. It’s very prevalent in the US. Guns are part of that toxic male culture.

wooki ,

Yes?

BeMoreCareful ,

“There’s too much identity tied up in one’s work, so that is lost [after retirement]. And then there’s the cultural script of what maleness means in in our culture, so men just won’t admit or won’t receive care for depression because of that sense that it’s somehow not what a man does.”

What use is a cog that can’t cog anymore? Caring for elders is not built into our value system and not protected by our economic system.

Hell, it may be the only way to retire in a few more years.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Maybe it isn’t about caring for them maybe it’s about teaching them to live with what they have. The skills for being retired are different than the skills of working. The skills of taking care of grandchildren are different than children.

We just sorta assume people know what to do when they get a certain age and maybe that isn’t a valid assumption. I am just thinking of an uncle I had whose health just crashed right after he stopped working. He didn’t add physical or mental work to make up for not working anymore. As opposed to some elderly I know who have loaded up the hobbies.

starbreaker ,
@starbreaker@kbin.social avatar

What use is a cog that can’t cog anymore? Caring for elders is not built into our value system and not protected by our economic system.

Also, what good is "care for depression" when the causes of depression aren't a "chemical imbalance" but having to live in a partriarchal capitalist society that only values men for what they can provide?

letsgocrazy ,

What if constantly calling a system that fails men “the patriarchy” was part of the problem?

What if calling a system that blames all men for a system that benefits a tiny elite was a large reason why so many men are totally dead disenfranchised with the concept? If there was even a one percent chance that was true - would you stop it doing it?

starbreaker ,
@starbreaker@kbin.social avatar

What would you suggest instead? The "kyriarchy"? The "military-industrial-congressional complex"? How about getting fisted by the invisible hand of the market?

Jako301 ,

It’s a plutocracy, pretty much the textbook definition of it.

letsgocrazy ,

Why would I have to choose a name that specifically targets one demographic?

When are the Internet revolutionaries going to realise that choosing solutions that deliberately create division will… Wait for it… Create division.

How are you going to solve problems when you’re literally motivating people to resist you?

PossiblyHuman ,

Guns are life. My rule to live by is “Love, Hate, Guns, and Ammo.”

WoahWoah ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    ShitOnABrick ,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    Everyone’s entitled to an opinion

    ashok36 ,

    Everyone saying it’s ridiculous to prevent people from killing themselves needs to keep in mine that these rules are generally in placw to prevent vulnerable people, including and especially the elderly, from being convinced to kill themselves so junior can inherit their house. People are bastards and absolutely will take advantage of more lax euthanasia laws to rid themselves of “troublesome” or “useless” people.

    Got_Bent ,

    But I want my kid to inherit my house. I’ll be damned if I piss it away on a bunch of entities compelling me to stay alive so they can drain everything I’ve accumulated. Fuck them. End me while there’s still something left.

    ChaoticEntropy ,
    @ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

    Yeah… this isn’t “it’s my time, I’m ready”, this seems more “I live in a system that has made my every waking day a depressing and fear filled nightmare, convinced of my own worthlessness, with death as my only release”.

    AllonzeeLV , (edited )

    So?

    We value capital here, not human life.

    As an American, shouldn’t our glorious free capitalist market celebrate these depleted capital batteries taking themselves out of the equation and lowering the tax burden on our beloved job creators requiring social supports once they can no longer make them money as fast food employees or store greeters?

    What kind of Americans would put value on human life that can no longer generate private shareholder value? Smh, ya’ll need to find supply side Jesus.

    To be fair though, the common method is as American as apple pie baseball vast homeless tent cities. 🇺🇸🎶 Oh say can you seeee…today’s mass shooting on teevee… 🎶🇺🇸

    tillary ,

    Well see, capitalism isn’t about productivity. It’s about maximizing capital. More consumers means more spending, and more money moving to people maximizing capital. So… Capitalism hates the death of consumers and loves procreation even more.

    Aqarius ,

    But you’re only a consumer if you have money to spend. If you’re broke, you’re out of the market.

    interceder270 ,

    To be fair, each additional person is a net gain for society’s wealth on average.

    AllonzeeLV ,

    From earnings and potential earnings, people are. The elderly are the worst consumers by far, any piece of shit proud sociopathic capitalist will tell you that.

    CoffeeJunkie ,

    Worst? Well, it depends. 🙂 When the elderly are so fucking far gone, their minds are gone, and they require to be put into a home…if they happen to have built up wealth…it is extracted from them pretty quickly. They’re a consumer on steroids, providing jobs & income to others. A decent nursing home where I live will run $70K annually, and that doesn’t cover medications. Divide that by 365, their family is shelling out, at bare minimum, $191 every single day for them to “live”. That’s a lot of cash!

    PossiblyHuman ,

    And thats a lot of terrible!

    SCB ,

    Leftists can’t do math, or they wouldn’t be leftists.

    PossiblyHuman ,

    True dat.

    PossiblyHuman ,

    TRUE DAT! no, my capslock isnt on.

    ✌️

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    You really don’t need to talk that way.

    AllonzeeLV ,

    I genuinely wish I didn’t.

    But Alas, this cruel nation makes respect impossible for me, and in lieu of any power, my only solace is making mockery of our unrepentant oppressors and this exploitation camp of a “society.”

    Starglasses ,

    Is this for or against free choice for medical suicide?

    The level of sarcasm is too high too understand for me >.>

    IronKrill ,

    No no no, we must keep them alive on life support for as long as their bank balance remains. Them after that we shall keep going until their entire family line is in debt to us. Brilliant!

    Romkslrqusz ,

    Medical Aid in Dying (MAiD) is only legal in 11 US states.

    At best, it requires a diagnosis for a terminal illness with 6 months left to live.

    Individuals with an Alzheimer’s or Dementia diagnosis are precluded from being able to make that choice, even if the diagnosis is recent and they still have most of their faculties.

    We could be doing so much more to allow people to go out on their own terms and die a good death. It doesn’t have to be traumatic for family members, whoever discovers the body, or those who will inevitably clean up the aftermath.

    Bishma , (edited )
    @Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

    I knew someone who made use of a death with dignity law and one of the doctors that he had to see to get the OK legally had to entourage him to take his own life. Something along the lines of “I have to tell you that, instead of a peaceful drug-assisted death, you have the option to forgo eating and drinking until you die.”

    SheDiceToday ,

    The sad part is, some people have done that because in their area there was no legal medical assistance. I read an article a few years ago about a person who decided to go out that way. I can’t imagine how horrible it must be to be clawed by hunger pains for days until death. I’ve experienced hunger for days while waiting on a paycheck, but until death? That’s a whole new level of horror.

    meco03211 ,

    Ever see the show Shameless? Very dark comedy throughout, mostly light hearted content. One episode had me balling. One of the main characters is having memory issues. They were sort of working their bucket list that reunited them with a friend that also had memory problems. The friend mentioned their spouse dying. Main character asks how they remembered. They had it written down on a post-it note on the fridge.

    If I had to relive my wife dying every day because I forgot, just put me down.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    My wife has a dementia patient for the past year who doesn’t remember being married and having children. She says he proposal to her about once a week. Maybe it won’t be as bad as you think?

    Zron ,

    We put dogs down every day because they have incurable diseases or are suffering.

    I had to put my dog down a few years ago because she was so old she could no longer get up or control her bladder or bowels, and I felt guilty for letting it get that far. I still remember the look in her eyes when they gave her the pain killers to knock her out, she looked so relieved.

    I don’t understand how I get to make that decision for a dog, but a grown human, in most places, can’t make that call for themselves and go out in a peaceful and controlled manner. If I knew I was going to die painfully in a few months or a year, I’d definitely take an overdose or nitrogen asphyxiation over the disease. When dogs have a better way out than people, something is seriously wrong.

    Bob_Robertson_IX ,

    I had someone close to me with a terminal illness use a gun to end his suffering. He had a bottle of Oxy on his nightstand and a gun inside his nightstand and the only reason I can think that he decided to go the gun route was so he was sure that it’d be done. It sucks that he didn’t have any other options available that could have provided a more caring and humane way to exit. Instead now his wife has to live with having found him like that in bed, and my daughter has to live with the fact that she never got to say ‘goodbye’.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    There unfortunately isn’t going to be a perfect answer here. I think most people would agree that a 17 year old in perfect health but depressed shouldn’t be able to die and I think most people would agree that 95 year old with a week to live in serious pain should be able to.

    Where the line is, who gets to decide, and what criteria they use is always going to be something debatable. I generally think it should be decided by medical review boards and the most important criteria should be consent.

    ghostdoggtv ,

    Too many people think the point of society is so you have others to take advantage of.

    UnspecificGravity ,

    So the choice given to a dying old man faced with watching his “retirement” and healthcare costs drain whatever meager remains of the estate he might leave behind is faced with this choice:

    A) Spend six figures on the various hoops needed to legally kill yourself. B) Spend 40 cents on a really good 9mm cartridge.

    Medically assisted suicide doesn’t work in places without public healthcare. You can NEVER be certain that the decision isn’t driven by financial concerns, and like ALL HEALTHCARE IN THE US, its really only available to at least marginally wealthy people in the first place.

    Ambiorickx ,

    For real. Once I retire in a decade or so, I’ll try to live off social security for as log as possible, but once I need to dip into my savings, I’m just tapping my kid’s inheritance. At that point, death is the only financially rational option.

    breadsmasher , (edited )
    @breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    SnotFlickerman ,
    @SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Apparently it is “partisan clickbait” because it talks about a real issue in the USA and that rustles their fucking jimmies apparently.

    SupraMario ,

    The real issue is that assisted suicide is basically illegal in the USA…you turned it into a gun issue…

    SnotFlickerman ,
    @SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Its a gun issue because most people see that as the “easiest” way of achieving it because they haven’t done even cursory basic research into effective suicide methods.

    Just because it is illegal doesn’t mean a gun is the only option.

    Guns are used in dumb fits of passion because it is easy and at-hand for a lot of people.

    SupraMario ,

    Wow…yes it’s the guns fault, not that our society is so fucked that people are offing themselves like crazy…naa it’s the gun doing it. The fuck outta here.

    SnotFlickerman ,
    @SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    I didn’t say it was the guns fault. Even if we fixed a boatload of societal problems, guns still don’t help these situations, and you’d still have people using them because they’re available.

    The idea that they don’t contribute to the problem is laughable.

    SheeEttin ,

    They do, but they are not the root cause, and focusing on them is a distraction.

    breadsmasher ,
    @breadsmasher@lemmy.world avatar

    typical “buh muh guns” response

    DancingYetiCrab ,

    It’s not a distraction though.

    The vast majority of attempted suicide survivors regret ever trying. They get help and live better lives.

    When someone is in a bad state of mind or having a depressed episode that is the time when they are most vulnerable.

    Having easy access to an immediate life ending device with the squeeze of a trigger is a major problem.

    This is the reason jump nets and barriers work on bridges. Making it slightly harder or more inconvenient to kill themselves saves lives.

    LainOfTheWired ,
    @LainOfTheWired@lemy.lol avatar

    As someone who lives in the UK where only farmers can get a gun to protect livestock from dangerous wildlife( which hate on me all you want is a valid reason to own a firearm and not just as a fancy toy to show off like Americans). Statistics show that men tend to use more brutal methods of suicide so not having guns makes no difference because they will simply use a different fatal method. So as someone who lives in a country that has a lot of suicides and no guns for the average joe. Removing guns has solved nothing in terms of suicide.

    So please draw info from other countries before making assumptions about how a law would change your country, because otherwise it’s very narrow minded, and you will waste time and lives trying to make a solution that already has no effect abroad.

    LainOfTheWired ,
    @LainOfTheWired@lemy.lol avatar

    As someone who lives in the UK where only farmers can get a gun to protect livestock from dangerous wildlife( which hate on me all you want is a valid reason to own a firearm and not just as a fancy toy to show off like Americans). Statistics show that men tend to use more brutal methods of suicide so not having guns makes no difference because they will simply use a different fatal method. So as someone who lives in a country that has a lot of suicides and no guns for the average joe. Removing guns has solved nothing in terms of suicide.

    So please draw info from other countries before making assumptions about how a law would change your country, because otherwise it’s very narrow minded, and you will waste time and lives trying to make a solution that already has no effect abroad.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Its not a distraction – it’s an immediate, measurable solution to a growing problem, that absolutely nobody is suggesting is the entire solution.

    Meanwhile, what have the pro-gun groups that insist they (and they alone) have the solution suggested?

    Video games. Marilyn Manson. Rock and rap music. Not enough prayer. Too many doors. Abortion. Legalised weed. Women. Drag Queens and gay marriage. COVID vaccines. Critical race theory. Not enough people having guns.

    And what a surprise, every single one of those excuses is just blatantly something they want to attack anyway, using the “look what you made me do” excuse loved by manipulative abusers everywhere.

    The boomers blame popular culture. The fundamentalists blame secularism and abortion. The fascists blame minorities. The neoliberals blame their donors not making enough money.

    After 25 years of offering nothing by distractions, some marketing genius thought of “mental health”, which is at least part of the problem.

    But of course their take away isnt “clearly we are not mentally healthy enough as a society for such permissive gun laws”, nor even “we should do something about the mental health problems are facing”.

    Instead, it’s “Other people should build a mental health system that is mandatory for every man, woman and child in America, even if they don’t want help. It has to cure mental health problems, even those beyond our ability to treat, instantly and so completely that they will never relapse, even for a second. Also, we are going to obstruct your efforts every step of the way politically, legally and by telling children they’re less important that inanimate objects used to kill and oppress people”.

    Because the idea was never to fix the problem, the idea was to create something that would distract people for 200 years, so the money would keep rolling in.

    But don’t worry if the skepticism has already started to creep into your brain with intrusive thoughts like “does this mean we train soldiers to be mentally ill?” or “are they trying to say that being a right wing reactionary like most mass shooters (and gun owners) is actually a mental illness?”…

    MTG has already come out and blamed mass shootings on the medication we use to treat mental health problems, ensuring gun owners still have the backup distraction of “too much mental healthcare”, ready to be used the day people meet their impossible prerequisites for gun control.

    bobs_monkey ,

    If someone wants to off themself, they’re going to do it whether they have a gun or not. Look at Japan, higher suicide rate than the US, virtually no guns in their society. Americans typically use guns because it’s quick and available. Even if guns weren’t available, suiciders are gonna suicide. So yeah, it absolutely is not a gun issue, it’s a societal issue, be it depression or lack of availability of assisted suicide.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    If someone wants to off themself, they’re going to do it whether they have a gun or not

    Not supported by science nor statistics. There is no better way to reveal that not only are you not an expert, you havent even made a token effort to be informed.

    Instead, you’ve just assumed you know everything there is to know about suicide prevention without looking and what a surprise, it just happens to align with whats most profitable for the gun lobby.

    bobs_monkey , (edited )

    Spoken like someone who hasn’t had depressed friends off themselves after years of trying to talk them off the ledge. I don’t give two fucks what your statistics or science say about it, I’ve lived it. So eat a bag of dicks and shut the fuck up about shit you’ve only read about on the internet.

    Edit: down vote all you want you little bitch. I sincerely hope you take that attitude to someone in real life and they kick the absolute shit out of you, maybe then you’ll realize your sheltered view of the world doesn’t align with reality. Go touch grass.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Edit: down vote all you want you little bitch. I sincerely hope you take that attitude to someone in real life and they kick the absolute shit out of you, maybe then you’ll realize your sheltered view of the world doesn’t align with reality. Go touch grass.

    Glorious. Downvotes are actually publicly visible on Lemmy and it wasnt me, but sure, go off.

    Don’t get embarassed though, you’re still very big and scary and the “go touch grass” still hurts my feelings no matter how many times right wing reactionaries use it, because I’m that insecure.

    Spoken like someone who hasn’t had depressed friends off themselves after years of trying to talk them off the ledge.

    I sincerely want to be sympathetic because I do know what thats like.

    But its easy enough to swallow that compassion when I remember that you’re only pulling out that trauma and heartbreak to defend gun laws that rob thousands of people of the chance to escape that same fate.

    Because you don’t get to “talk people off the ledge” when they have a gun. There is no ledge. Those critical opportunities for help and self-reflectance, that have saved thousands of people from bridges, rooftops and bathtubs full of blood, are all lost.

    And the people talked off ledges don’t just find another ledge. Only 1 in 10 people who survive a suicide attempt go on to die by suicide, but the survival rate of self inflicted gunshot wounds is functionally zero.

    Its why, if someone you care about is struggling with depression or trauma, the very last thing you should do is give them a gun.

    Fortunately for the gun-lobby, the only people gun owners seem to care about is themselves, no matter now many of their children blow their brains out with daddy’s poorly secured firearm that he bought to “keep his family safe”.

    sederx ,

    I don’t give two fucks what your statistics or science say about it,

    it was obvious to all of us :)

    thenightisdark ,

    So you’re saying that if I wanted to suicide I won’t if I don’t have a gun. What an odd take.

    This sounds like the terrible logic of banning abortion. If we ban abortion then women won’t have abortions. /S

    No that this is sarcasm because legalizing abortion has saved many women’s lives

    sederx ,

    So you’re saying that if I wanted to suicide I won’t if I don’t have a gun. What an odd take.

    its not that odd. pressing a trigger is much easier than hanging yourself or cutting yourself or jumping. this is a fact. plus many people attempt suicide and fail and some of them dont attempt anymore. with a gun the chances of not being successful are very low.

    wooki ,

    no its not a fact, its the opposite, world wide suicide is well documented and not a unique American problem it is a fact America does not even make the top 20.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    So you want to claim “suicide is a complex problem with many factors” when people mention suicide by firearms but the moment you want to pull out some statistics, all those complex factors are brushed aside without a second thought so you can claim “look, most guns doesn’t mean most suicides”.

    Without a statistics from a parallel universe where America has gun laws that make even a token effort to work, those numbers are meaningless.

    What we can do is look at every other form of means reduction that has ever been enacted, and watch how the number of people committing suicide doesn’t just drop for that method, it drops for all methods, with results comparable to psychotherapy and medication.

    You’re going to have to choose which matters to you more: suicide prevention or being a simp for right-wing, pro-gun Americans and the lobby group that programs them.

    thenightisdark ,

    “with a gun the chances of not being successful are very low.”

    This is a wild statement anything the back of this one up. I might learn something but I’m not going to take your word for it. I need a source.

    www.gvpedia.org/gun-myths/more-lethal/

    Till you provide a source I’m going with this source

    sederx ,

    Good luck with that

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    So you’re saying that if I wanted to suicide I won’t if I don’t have a gun. What an odd take.

    Not just me, but everybody involved in suicide prevention. It doesn’t matter how unintuitive you find it, means reduction works.

    Suicide is an impulse and when people have access to guns, they can act on that impulse in minutes, if not seconds. It’s painless and requires zero preparation time.

    What other method even comes close?

    You might have the tools to slit your wrists, but it hurts, it’s easy to get wrong, takes much longer than you’d think and sucks the entire time.

    It’s also extemely difficult to seriously injure yourself on purpose. Most people have heard of “hesitation marks” but nobody has heard of “hesitation gunshots”, because they’re not a thing.

    Okay, so what about hanging? For most people, step 1 is going to be Googling “how to tie a noose”, which will immediately present them with local suicide prevention resources.

    So fuck it, lets head outside.

    Maybe jump off something high? How long would it take you to get to a bridge or building that would definitely be fatal? Would you need to drive? Would you need directions? Could you leave without anybody asking where you were going? Once you got there, could you climb on the edge without being seen by passers by, all of whom will immediately try and help you or call someone who can.

    And of course once you were looking out over the edge, could you do it? It’s terrifying and a very primal survival instinct will tell you to stop. Even once you jump, you’re still not arriving at oblivion faster than someone with a gun would.

    Maybe you could overdose on something? The 90s made it look so cool. But of course, few people have fatal amounts of drugs just laying around and for most people, it’s far quicker and easier to go to a gun store.

    So whats left? Shit that practically nobody does, despite the pro-gun community insist every suicide method is the same. People don’t gouge their eyes to get to their brain or feed themselves into a tablesaw.

    This sounds like the terrible logic of banning abortion. If we ban abortion then women won’t have abortions. /S

    No, it doesn’t sound like that at all, you just want to signal to others that you’re not right wing but still love guns.

    But sure, we can stick with that analogy. Do women who aren’t pregnant still have abortions? Do they just find another medical proceedure to have instead?

    No that this is sarcasm because legalizing abortion has saved many women’s lives

    If you’re pro gun, there’s no use pretending “saving womens lives” is a thing you care about. 70 women are shot and killed by their partners each month, over 4 million report being threatened with a gun.

    Abusers with access to guns are 5x more likely to kill their partners and guess what the gun lobby does? Openly opposes domestic abusers losing their guns.

    wooki , (edited )

    Suicide is an impulse

    Suicide is everything from highly planned to impulsive. You’ve built your argument on a fallacy.

    Abusers with guns

    So this isn’t about male suicide but guns…

    Great minimization to wedge your rhetoric.

    When the causes of death is compared across genders is blatantly obvious the difference is the means to ACT on it. Men are less likely to seek help, more likely to ACT. This is not a uniquely American issue, its world wide in fact America does not rank in the top 20 countries.

    To make my point, here is the Australian suicide statistics. Notice how its the same problem and we do not have guns accessible? www.aihw.gov.au/…/suicide-deaths-over-time

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Suicide is everything from highly planned to impulsive. You’ve built your argument on a fallacy

    Sure, I probably should have said “many suicides are an impulse”, but you’re going to have to do better then semantics.

    But if that’s the game we’re playing, by your own admission, it’s not a fallacy, it just doesn’t cover every suicide.

    Which is fine, because I’ll never claim that gun control will prevent all suicides, but the types of impulse suicides I specifically detailed.

    So this isn’t about male suicide but guns…

    Means reduction is means reduction. It remains one of the most effective methods of suicide prevention and that wont change just because this particular means reduction upsets pro-gun reactionaries.

    People also got upset when their access to barbiturates, toxic gas and easy to jump off bridges was reduced. But people went ahead and saved a measurable number of lives anyway, because bridge aficionados aren’t part of a death cult backed by a powerful lobby group.

    When the causes of death is compared across genders is blatantly obvious the difference is the means to ACT on it.

    So you’re saying that men have greater access to some kind of “means”, that are more lethal than other means, which increases the number of them that die by suicide?

    Damn, who’d’ve though?

    Men are less likely to seek help, more likely to ACT. This is not a uniquely American issue, its world wide in fact America does not rank in the top 20 countries.

    I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but I’m the one advocating that we take steps to reduce the suicide rate, using repeatedly proven strategies.

    It’s the pro-gun commenters that you seemingly agree with who are advocating that we do less.

    I even did it without bringing gender into it, because I don’t feel that someones genitals makes their suicide any more of less tragic.

    Unfortunately, that didn’t stop you from seeing the words “women” and “suicide” used in the same post and twisting it into something you could get upset about.

    Notice how its the same problem and we do not have guns accessible?

    Yep, I see the statistics that have nothing to do with the point I was making.

    wooki , (edited )

    To preface for others, I have placed some of the more triggering parts of this discussion behind the spoiler tags so others reading can avoid the more sensitive part of these discussions.

    I probably should have said “many suicides are an impulse”

    You should not have over stated the minority. I understand, anything to further your political rhetoric.

    It remains one of the most effective methods of suicide prevention

    And yet the suicide statistics CLEARLY show it made NO difference for Australia, none.

    spoilerBetter ban rope now, hangings now dwarf suicide by guns as the leading cause.

    Clearly you can’t even be bothered reading the statistics, not a study, statistics. If you had bothered to read the statistics of means over time, it clearly shows the volume has only increased over 5 decades and the means has drastically changed. The change in access made, NO difference in the outcome.

    So you’re saying that men have greater access to some kind of “means”.

    That was a typo on my part which you can clearly see if you read the two sentences together. Not means; intent. Absolutely men have far more intent then women. Pick any study, the conclusion is the same: intent.

    I’m the one advocating that we take steps to reduce the suicide rate, using repeatedly proven strategies.

    repeatedly proven strategies.

    That baseless claim at it again. Its statistics show the exact opposite.

    pro-gun commenters that you seemingly agree with

    No. I’m disagreeing with political bots like yourself “PoliticalAgiotator” wedging an agenda to benefit your politics. Its disingenuous garbage. I’m keeping my politics out of it, I find it weird how uncontrolled guns are in the US however I am not deluded by how little of an impact it has had here. It detracts from real discussion to address the real cause.

    I even did it without bringing gender into it,

    didn’t stop you from seeing the words “women” and “suicide” used in the same post and twisting it

    The delusion is pretty bad for you. You have not read the post title, let alone the article or even the statistics I provided. Welcome to the conversation, or is that the point: to derail and not contribute.

    Yep, I see the statistics

    For some strange reason, I highly doubt you read anything at all.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    To preface for others, I have placed some of the more triggering parts of this discussion behind the spoiler tags

    As you argue against proven suicide prevention strategies. How very compassionate of you.

    Clearly you can’t even be bothered reading the statistics, not a study, statistics.

    It makes sense that you’d focus on numbers without any greater context, because it makes it far easier to manipulate them. I’ve already addressed your bullshit arguments in your other comment.

    Alternatively, people can just click the link above and get the opinions of an institute dedicated to suicide prevention and the studies they’ve based it on, then decide if they’re likely to know more or less about suicide prevention than this random guy on social media.

    Not means; intent. Absolutely men have far more intent then women. Pick any study, the conclusion is the same: intent.

    So you’re saying that women are just doing it for attention and thats why their suicide rate is lower and why they don’t use guns?

    That’s the opinion of a complete cunt, but I cant figure out any other reason for you to even mention it.

    For some strange reason, I highly doubt you read anything at all

    Okay then, lets do it this way: find me three suicide prevention organizations that don’t support means reduction or explain to us how you’re more qualified than the literally hundreds that do.

    This shouldn’t be a problem right? After all, you’re definitely correct and trawling through hundreds of studies, statistics and statements to individually link them on social media is a trivial thing that it’s not dishonest to demand.

    wooki ,

    How very compassionate of you.

    So that’s your compassion? Ignore others around you hey. Makes sense.

    because it makes it far easier to manipulate them

    Oh this is hilarious, do tell, how I manipulate an entire countries statistics on suicide over time!

    and get the opinions of an institute dedicated to suicide prevention

    They’re absolutely right, as a generalization. Does it stop the result when access was taken away specifically for Guns. The statistics clearly show means changed over time and did the rate reduce? No. That rope lobby is looking mighty dangerous now. You better get on the case.

    women are just doing it for attention

    Is that what I said? Don’t worry, I don’t just make baseless claims or tell you to just google something that doesn’t exist. Suicide rate is 3 times higher for males, after all this is the topic with Guns.

    higher rate of suicide among Australian males are that males tend to choose more lethal methods of suicide such as hanging (60% of male suicides), poisoning, including by car exhaust (11%), and firearms (8%). (Australian Psychological Society)

    men have a greater tendency to not recognize or respond to their own negative emotions or distress, which may result in more chronic and severe emotional responses to adverse life events (Goldney et al., 2002)

    Men are less inclined to communicate feelings of despair or hopelessness, and are more likely to present a stoic attitude towards misfortune (Howerton et al., 2007; Witte et al., 2012)

    have fewer social connections (Denney et al 2009)

    Differences in help seeking between men and women are additional contributing factors. Men tend not to seek help for emotional difficulties, often feeling that help-seeking is a weakness or failure and preferring to solve problems on their own, without being a burden on others (Emslie et al 2006)

    That’s the opinion of a complete cunt,

    Don’t worry you do enough gas lighting and straw-manning for everyone. At this point its assured you’re lobbying for big oil.

    PoliticalAgitator , (edited )

    Yep, what a surprise, you can’t find any organisations that agree with you, even though your clearly the expert.

    Even more fascinating is when you finally start pulling out extracts, you struggle to not contradict yourself.

    higher rate of suicide among Australian males are that males tend to choose more lethal methods of suicide such as hanging

    So you’re adamant that guns have nothing to do with the suicide rate, then immediately paste a quote about how lethality of method increases the suicide rate?

    Do you think guns are more or less lethal than hanging you fucking dunce?

    Don’t bother answering, just repeat “b-b-bhut Australia” over and over again, pointing at a policy that didn’t target suicide prevention.

    Maybe you can follow it up with throwing a tantrum because people aren’t discussing exactly what’s in the title, even as you gloss over the “U.S” part so that you can use an island with 14 guns per capita to a country with 120 guns per capita.

    wooki ,

    So you have no evidence no study and no statistics to support your baseless claims and generalisations. I thought so.

    A pathetic political wedge attempt.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Repeatedly linked. Have the gun lobby built a GPT bot and taught it to sealion?

    You should get a job at a suicide hotline and when people call up, ask them if they’ve considered buying a cool gun and shooting things because after all, it makes no difference at all if you give suicidal people firearms.

    You know, because Australia banned semi-automatic weapons.

    wooki ,

    So more generalisations no studies no statistics, nothing of value to the conversation. More baseless claims and empty straw manning. Keep up the good work big oil.

    thenightisdark ,

    Two counter points:

    First is gunpowder is a weapon that does level playing field between two people who have different amounts of strength. What I mean is a 6foot 250 lb muscle builder is just as deadly as a 90 year old grand ma.

    You have to acknowledge that point even if I agreed to your points.

    Unlike all other weapons strength doesn’t matter for a gun. Basic biology that women are physically weaker than men. Yes some suggested that a woman shooting a guy in self-defense should be legal and mostly is.

    The second is is you are wildly wrong about having access to drugs. I’m surprised you are suggesting that the average American household doesn’t have a lethal dose in their medicine cabinet.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    What I mean is a 6foot 250 lb muscle builder is just as deadly as a 90 year old grand ma.

    Sure, in some bizarre labratory conditions that don’t reflect reality, the body builder and the grandma have equal capacity to murder anyone they want.

    But that’s almost never how it plays out. Do you know who actually wins in that matchup? Whoever is the shittest person.

    Is the grandma deeply racist and the body builder black? Then all my money is on the grandma. Is the body builder far-right and opening fire on a family having a day out with grandma? Then all my money is on the Nazi.

    But of course, we don’t have to talk about convoluted hypothetical scenarios. The pro-gun community had dictated the gun laws for 25 years, promising shit like “a level playing field” the entire time, despite it been a deeply fucked way of describing people fighting for their lives.

    So why are none of these promises coming true? Why are women and minorities less safe in America compared to other wealthy countries? Why are the crime rates in America basically the same despite tolerating children being executed en masse every few months?

    If these gun laws keep us safe from tyranny, why are there fascists preparing for an election, enthusiastically cheered on by the the pro-gun community?

    When they inevitably lose and arrange their next attack on the Capitol, puffing their chests out with pro-gun pride and executing anyone who stands in their way, are you going tell us just how level the playing field was?

    The second is is you are wildly wrong about having access to drugs. I’m surprised you are suggesting that the average American household doesn’t have a lethal dose in their medicine cabinet.

    Most of then also have a lethal amount of bleach too but believe it or not, most suicidal people would rather not torture themselves to death.

    Just because something is theoretically fatal doesn’t mean it’s a suicide risk.

    wooki , (edited )

    Suicide is not a uniquely American problem, nor is higher male suicides. In fact America does not even make the top 20. Depression is the well understood cause of suicide. Depression has many many factors. From simple inheritance, to money, relationships, drugs, disease, and much more. Those are the causes. The only way to stop it, is mental health services, awareness, compassion, support and specifically for men, breaking the social stigma. Break the generational social contract that makes mental health for males taboo and only then will we achieve even suicide rates across genders.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Oh look you’ve brought genitals into it here too, even though you can’t connect it to anything I’ve said this time, even with your eagerness to make wild stretches based on seeing the words “women” and “suicide” within 3 inches of one another.

    As for the rest of your post, once again, I’m not the one arguing against evidence based suicide prevention, the pro-gun people are.

    To put it bluntly, you sounds like someone that’s struggling to combine “standing in solidarity with your fellow far-right reactionaries in the pro-gun community” with “doing your duty as a MRA by talking about suicide statistics like they’re women’s fault”.

    wooki ,

    Oh look you’ve brought genitals into it here too,

    Ill help you out since you cant read. The title of this post is:

    “Suicide rates in the US are highest among elderly men, and most involve guns, CDC report says”

    among elderly men

    men

    I’m not the one arguing against evidence based suicide prevention

    The only “evidence” you have provided is baseless claims. The facts I have provided are clear an unambiguous. Banning guns in Australia made no difference to suicide.

    spoilerand is eclipsed by hangings.

    To put it bluntly you seem like a bot rambling on without understanding the title of a post let alone content.

    like they’re women’s fault

    Good luck with that.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Ill help you out since you cant read. The title of this post is

    The gendering in the title has nothing to do with anything I said in any of my posts. I was discussing prevention strategies that apply to people regardless of gender, and your response was “but what about men?”.

    The article title also mentions “elderly”, but you havent been nearly upset by people failing to laser focus on that adjective.

    The only “evidence” you have provided is baseless claims.

    You can easily search for “suicide means reduction study” and find a mountain of evidence without me spoonfeeding each result to you.

    The fact that you’re insisting that means reduction doesn’t work either means you never have, or you think that guns are a magical exception to that.

    The facts I have provided are clear an unambiguous. Banning guns in Australia made no difference to suicide.

    The facts you’ve provided are intentionally misleading but sure, since we’re talking about Australia, here is what one of their leading suicide prevention groups thinks about means reduction, complete with the studies they’ve based it on.

    And what’s that at number 4? A study that doesn’t say “banning guns (something Australia didn’t actually do) made no difference”, it says that it’s not possible to determine if the reduction in suicides by firearms was because of the new restrictions on gun ownership, or part of a general trend downward.

    Of course, you would have found that instantly had you have actually searched, but we both know your goal wasn’t to keep the discussion factually accurate, it was to sea-lion as much as you could to make it a grind to respond to you.

    eclipsed by hangings

    You have an idiots idea of of what means reduction means. We’ve repeatedly shown that reducing access to popular, accessible “jump points” results in fewer suicides by any method.

    It doesn’t completely stop that method, nor did anybody suggest banning any structure more then 12ft high.

    The increased firearm restrictions didn’t have a detectable impact on the suicide rate on Australia because guns were not a common method of suicide in Australia to begin with.

    What happened when means reduction wed implemented for more common methods like jumping? Oh look, the suicide rate went down, just like every study always says.

    Do you went to argue that suicide by firearm isn’t a significant of percentage of suicides in America? You might as well, since it would be just as self-serving and factually inaccurate as everything else you’ve argued.

    wooki ,

    The gendering in the title has nothing to do with anything

    Ill give you a hint, its in the title of OP’s post.

    you havent been nearly upset by people failing to laser focus on that adjective

    no denying, suicide rate in the elderly is highest.

    find a mountain of evidence without me spoonfeeding each result to you.

    just google it

    The fact that you’re insisting that means reduction doesn’t work

    spoilerTaking away access to guns doesn’t no. My point is supported by the fact that taking away guns from the population of Australia resulted in NO reduction in suicide. None comparing the 20 years before to the 20 years after. You can’t twist that. Its a matter of fact it increased overall and dominant means changed.

    What happened when means reduction wed implemented for more common methods like jumping?

    Nice straw-man.

    factually inaccurate as everything else you’ve argued.

    Yet I am the only one who has shown clear evidence to support it while your baseless opinion and generations continues to entertain.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Do the plot twists never end? You finally get the evidence you demanded and it’s immediately disregarded without comment because it doesn’t say what you want.

    wooki ,

    Still waiting for that magical evidence on gun control results in suicide reduction.

    Up next generalisations the new scientific method.

    sederx ,

    how do you see these alarming suicide rates and think " oh we should give them a better way to kill themselves " instead of " why in the hell is that many people wanting to die???"

    SupraMario ,

    Because if you understand the stats, the majority of people who are committing suicide are older, and more than likely have a illness they no longer want to live with. I’m all for single payer, but I’m not here to tell someone they should suffer when they want to take their life. That’s not mine or your choice.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    None think about having to clean up all their blood and brain matter left over. Suicide is so selfish.

    SnotFlickerman ,
    @SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    That kind of gun-assisted suicide at least, for sure. There’s still deaths of despair that are far from selfish acts, and moreso acts of desperation.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    leraje ,
    @leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    It’s rare to find a lack of empathy, intelligence together with ignorance in one single comment. Well done.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    leraje ,
    @leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Well done again. Your ability to come across as even more callous and ignorant than you already had is truly impressive.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    leraje ,
    @leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    And now you’ve added twisting peoples words to make yourself look better.

    Have you considered a career as a landlord? Or a conservative politician? You’re a natural fit.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Of course they refused to get help. THEY WERE SUICIDAL. Do you even understand the concept of that? If you want to die, you don’t want help. I know because I’ve been there.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Your solution to suicidal people is that they should get help. I’m explaining to you why they don’t. You’re telling them to do something they can’t do. They are not mentally able to ask for help.

    And some of us, like me, are just in excruciating pain every single day.

    Alto ,
    @Alto@kbin.social avatar

    Helluva lot easier to say when you're not actively in the depths of it

    Salamendacious OP ,
    @Salamendacious@lemmy.world avatar

    To be fair you’re making an assumption here that may or may not be true

    thisisawayoflife ,

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    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    As a military veteran, I give a shit. Having access to a gun seems a lot easier to those in despair than seeking help. It’s why it’s important we make access to firearms extremely difficult in the future.

    HubertManne ,

    this. why does anyone else have a say in if I live or die outside of me. FYI i am not looking to die but when I decide to I want to be "allowed" to. and I don't give a fuck if someone else thinks the reason is not adequate.

    ABCDE ,

    So do something about it.

    HubertManne ,

    depression cured by drugs is not a cure and ironically often lead to more suicide since it lightens the depression enough to get the person to take action.

    derf82 ,

    90% of people cannot afford and environment change, not that such cures depression. Some people are less treatable, and many depression medications actually heighten suicidal feelings.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    derf82 ,

    That’s what you offer. You don’t just magically cure mental illness. Nor do you just magically have money to change your situation.

    HubertManne ,

    Ironically your comment is incredibly selfish (you need to walk in their shoes) and based on nothing but your imagination. Some may take precautions to minimize cleanup.

    ChunkMcHorkle , (edited )
    @ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted by creator

    HubertManne ,

    thank you. its nice to hear or in this case read someone put it out so sanely and clearly. I do not get why other people feel they should tell someone else that they have to continue to exist because they know better than them.

    ChunkMcHorkle , (edited )
    @ChunkMcHorkle@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted by creator

    derf82 ,

    It’s also selfish to force people to suffer due to our personal moral scruples. Allow assisted suicide.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    derf82 ,

    Not so easily as you say.

    AllonzeeLV ,

    Alzheimer’s and schizophrenia are curable, are they?

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    AllonzeeLV ,

    Alzheimer’s, if caught early, can be cured.

    -YoBuckStopsHere

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    AllonzeeLV ,

    "Current Alzheimer’s treatments temporarily improve symptoms of memory loss and problems with thinking and reasoning.

    These Alzheimer’s treatments boost the performance of chemicals in the brain that carry information from one brain cell to another. They include cholinesterase inhibitors and the medicine memantine (Namenda). However, these treatments don’t stop the underlying decline and death of brain cells. As more cells die, Alzheimer’s disease continues to progress."

    -literally your own source

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    ShitOnABrick , (edited )
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    While I agree with this statement i dont agree on everything you’'ve said. That mentally ill people should almost certainly not be given MAID and this MAID stuff is getting out of hand for christ sakes there handing out MAID to homeless people and people with very much cureable with treatment mental illnesses absolute

    I’m not going lie to you dementia and AD can not be cured and are categorised as diseases. in my opinion in a situation where someone with dementia,terminal cancer or any other terminal disease which causes great harm and distress wants medically assisted suicide then I think this is fine. MAID should only apply to terminal illnesses or serve physical disabilities such as being both blind and having mutupile amputations stuff that causes great pain and great distess and the person receiving MAID should be have to fully consenting and willing to the idea of MAID.

    People with Mental disabilities and mental illnesses should never receive MAID They arent in great pain or distress instead they should receive proper treatment and care that they need and help with integration into society finding a job,assistance with care,housing etc

    fleabomber ,

    I try not judge these folks too harshly, they must be in incredible pain.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    radioactiveradio ,

    And that’s the whole problem. Medical help is so expensive you need medical help after medical help.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    ShitOnABrick ,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    👍

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    No, they’re not in pain? Really?

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

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    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Someone who doesn’t want help is not going to seek help. Your “solution” is as insane as telling a schizophrenic person to just stop listening to voices. Your understanding of mental illness is both offensive to those of us who suffer from it and just simply ignorant. Until you get a degree in psychology, maybe you shouldn’t be lecturing other people about what they should do about their mental illnesses.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes, they do want help. They always want help.

    Is this in your expert psychological opinion?

    AllonzeeLV , (edited )

    Wall Street is selfish. Taking more profit than you need is selfish.

    These people were desperate. Many likely due to rampant American capitalistic selfishness forcing them to subsist on catfood so business crooks can have 2 vacation homes and 5 expensive cars instead of everyone benefitting from market prosperity.

    Selfishness is America’s brand, but being driven to put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger isn’t selfishness, it is largely a consequence of other’s selfishness. Our suicide rates are extreme in the supposedly “developed” world because selfish people demand everything and we let them do it at societal expense.

    agitatedpotato ,

    Calling people who suffer from suicidal ideation or committed suicide selfish is exactly like calling kids with down syndrome idiots.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

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    interceder270 ,

    Yikes.

    Got_Bent ,

    deleted_by_moderator

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    remotelove ,

    Good job in taking a serious issue and putting an unnecessary partisan spin on it, CNN. The issue of guns needs to be sidelined when talking about issues as serious as suicide.

    worldpopulationreview.com/…/suicide-rate-by-count…

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    remotelove ,

    Suicide is a problem around the world, guns or not. Focus on the issue, not click-bait titles.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    deleted_by_author

    •
    SupraMario ,

    Many do not, the fuck is wrong with you. The majority of gun deaths are suicides and it’s a single person taking their life.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    America has “many” mass shootings because the baseline for other countries is “once a decade”, not because the number has many digits.

    You’re either fully aware of this and being manipulative or you reacted emotionally without thinking – not a good trait for a gun owner, but one shared by all the ones who committed suicide or killed their partners.

    ABCDE ,

    Yet it’s a huge issue because of guns in the US.

    SupraMario ,

    No it is not, Japan has a higher rate than we do and they basically don’t have firearms at all in their country.

    ABCDE , (edited )

    No they don’t.

    …wikipedia.org/…/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rat…

    The US is 31, Japan is 49.

    55% of suicides use guns:

    www.cdc.gov/suicide/suicide-data-statistics.html

    SupraMario ,

    Uhh Japan’s rate is 16.5 vs the USAs 14… they most definitely have a higher rate of suicide. I don’t even know how you think we have a lower rate than they do.

    ABCDE ,

    14.5 in the US v 12.2 in Japan. So no.

    remotelove ,

    There are some sourcing issues with statistics that are going on with this thread, me thinks. When I did a quick glance over the numbers, there are a ton of conditions like gender, age, year, population, etc., that need to be validated as well. Cultural differences regarding suicide need to be taken into account as well.

    Regardless, y’all can argue about insignificant statistical differences all you want. A suicide is a suicide and the method of suicide is irrelevant.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    A suicide is a suicide and the method of suicide is irrelevant.

    Which is your gut feeling about how suicide works, not supported in any way by anyone involved in the study of suicide or suicide prevention.

    The claim “they’d just do it another way” is bullshit.

    remotelove ,

    I spot checked numbers around the world and the suicide rates are fairly consistent regardless of gun laws.

    You are just making wild assumptions about how I read into anything, and, based on your name, you are just trolling. Just blabbing out “Nah! U wrong!” doesn’t really prove a point, it is just provoking an argument.

    Saying that is takes a suicide specialist to read is a weird claim. It’s like saying you need to have a doctorate degree in language studies to write something down.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Oh apparently its permissable to not provide links when you do it.

    But don’t worry, I know what the numbers are so I wont deliberately waste your time in an act of bad faith in the hope that next time you just let people spread misinformation.

    Even disregarding that nowhere has gun laws that allow violent, suicidal people to acquire guns as easily as America, numbers are not the whole story.

    Every time widespread means reduction has been implemented, those numbers have gone down.

    I’m sorry if that hurts your guns feelings.

    remotelove ,

    I can easily post sources and do when it’s important. You usually don’t and you make some very bold claims, and seem to never back up your claims. Ever.

    Your statement “I know what the numbers are” is verification of that. You are basically saying “if you don’t know, I am not going to tell you”, just like a child.

    Most of all, Karen, if you want to talk about bad faith, let’s talk about your constant and consistent need to get quippy and obtuse. You obviously have strong feelings about this subject, but your delivery is just bad. You aren’t going to convince anyone of anything by being smug.

    Guns are machines. Guns don’t have feelings. Guns don’t jump up and magically shoot things because they got pissed off. Guns don’t call people stupid or get emotional. Guns don’t get drunk and rape kids or beat their spouse.

    PoliticalAgitator , (edited )

    I can easily post sources and do when it’s important

    Can you post a source for this claim?

    Your statement “I know what the numbers are” is verification of that. You are basically saying “if you don’t know, I am not going to tell you”, just like a child.

    You mean in my reply to you not posting the numbers that you said you looked at?

    So not only do I have to spoon feed you the numbers, I have to spoonfeed you the numbers even after you claim to have checked them, without actually posting what they were or where you read them.

    Sounds like you either lied about your fact checking or are holding me to a standard you don’t hold yourself to so that you can get upset.

    Most of all, Karen, if you want to talk about bad faith, let’s talk about your constant and consistent need to get quippy and obtuse.

    Probably not a good insult to throw around when you’re being functionally identical to an anti-vaxxer.

    You obviously have strong feelings about this subject, but your delivery is just bad. You aren’t going to convince anyone of anything by being smug.

    I’m so sorry. How dare I call you out for pushing dangerous misinformation without also cradling your head in my lap, stroking your hair and telling you that you’re my special special boy.

    That’s surely the problem and not that the pro-gun community is self-absorbed, backed by a powerful lobby group and will literally threaten to kill people if they propose changes to gun laws.

    Guns are machines

    For killing people

    Guns don’t have feelings

    Nope, but the legsl gun owners sure do do and they don’t seem to be able to control them.

    Guns don’t jump up and magically shoot things because they got pissed off

    Nope, you’re thinking of legal gun owners again

    Guns don’t call people stupid or get emotional.

    Which is a shame, because thats a massive improvement over things like “mutilating a room full of children beyond recognition after they were legally sold to a teenager, despite known red flags, by a company that targets their advertising at teenagers”

    Guns don’t get drunk and rape kids or beat their spouse.

    Yep, legal gun owners again. But don’t worry, gun lobby groups have publicly stated those people should keep their guns, no matter their history of domestic violence.

    All linked, as per your demands because the important part of this conversation – far more important than the lives of innocent and vulnerable people – is that it happens in a tone and manner that you have personally approved.

    ABCDE ,

    I spot checked numbers around the world and the suicide rates are fairly consistent regardless of gun laws.

    Why did you pick out gun laws specifically, and not access?

    remotelove ,

    Stricter gun control laws should imply less access. One of the nordic countries may be an exception off the top of my head, as one of them has strict gun control laws but many people still own a gun. Finland, maybe? That absolutely needs more research by me so take that with a grain of salt.

    (I am going to clearly re-emphasize “spot check” here, as well.)

    If countries like Japan and South Korea had lower numbers of suicides, that may indicate that gun laws play a part in that. (Japan was the exact reason I added a disclaimer about cultural views affecting suicide. Their history with ritual suicide is interesting but probably doesn’t carry over much to today. )

    Comparing any other countries total suicide rates to to that of the U.S. was a fairly quick search. My searches gave results for the years between 2020 and 2022 usually. There were a ton of different results, but I could say that a “decent” world average is about 15 in 100,000. If I remember correctly, I saw everything between 10-25 deaths per 100k, maybe more or less.

    The U.S. averaged around 18’ish per 100k, which seems a hair higher, but not outrageously high.

    If there was a direct correlation between firearm access and suicide, it should create a hell of an outlier for U.S. suicides in total. Also, I did read a few studies on preferred methods of suicide based on gender and also suicide methods in general but that was irrelevant to the topic. (I was looking to see if access to guns increases suicide rates not if access to guns influenced the preferred method of suicide.)

    For a quick glance, that should be sufficient.

    SupraMario ,

    Your own source from the wiki link you posted says you’re wrong. Please provide a different source that says differently

    ABCDE ,

    No it doesn’t. Provide your own if you disagree with the stats. You brought up Japan anyway, which is not relevant here but I humoured you anyway. The US is 31st in the world for suicides, most are done by guns. That’s shocking and your attempt at distraction is laughable.

    SupraMario ,

    Are you blind or trolling? Cause the wiki link %100 shows Japan with a higher rate than the USA. I brought up Japan because you claimed our suicide rate was high because of guns…which isn’t why we have a high rate. I’m also not the one trying to conflate guns as the reason for high suicide numbers…

    ABCDE ,

    I have provided the link and quoted the numbers. Stop fucking around because it’s really boring.

    Access to guns certainly makes the suicide rate high. There are other reasons for other countries having higher rates.

    SupraMario ,

    No it does not. Tons of countries where no one has access to firearms still have high suicide rates. You don’t seem to be able to understand statistics.

    ABCDE ,

    You couldn’t read basic stats from a Wiki page so what are you on about?

    Compare similar countries, such as Canada, the UK, EU nations, and other similar OECD nations.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    It has been repeatedly and conclusively demonstrated that means reduction (which the pro-gun community won’t allow) and survivability (which guns don’t have) play an extremely important role in suicide prevention.

    Guns are absolutely part of the issue. Unfortunately, the pro-gun community prioritises sweeping gun deaths under the rug to maintain their profits and possessions over actually protecting anyone.

    remotelove , (edited )

    You like to talk a lot about studies and data without actually providing studies or data.

    Just reading through your profile is just a mess of “it has been proven”, “debunked”, “repeatedly shown”, etc., etc., or just the simple “no, your wrong”.

    Quite honestly, it’s weird. While we all tend to use simple phrases during a discussion, I also like to at least provide a link or two or have a study within reach to back up my assumptions.

    Your motivation is simply to piss people off, it seems.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    It’s not my responsibility to spoon feed you information and you shouldn’t be trusting posts on social media just because they do.

    There’s no better way to feed people dogshit than studies and graphs stripped of context.

    remotelove , (edited )

    It’s not about spoon feeding me information. It’s about validating your own claims.

    Also, links on social media are completely visible and transparent. You should know exactly what they link to and were information is hosted. A good study will generally have good sample sizes and plenty of peer reviews.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    I have validated my own claims, to my own standard, under my own volition. That’s why I hold this opinion in the first place.

    You either haven’t, or have chosen to dismiss the evidence because it’s inconvenient to the opinions you want to hold.

    Also, links on social media are completely visible and transparent. You should know exactly what they link to and were information is hosted. A good study will generally have good sample sizes and plenty of peer reviews.

    It’s not stupid to click the link, its stupid to let someone on the internet assure you they’ve provided all the context you need.

    The British medical journal Lancet published a study back in 1998. It’s had hundreds of peer reviews. Does that mean that if somebody links it on social media, you’ll just accept it?

    Because that paper was the origin of “vaccines cause autism”. It has been linked millions of times by a group of people who are spreading misinformation that kills people.

    Want me to send you a link next time I see one? You can strut into their midst with links to the hundreds of studies that disprove it.

    I’m sure it won’t be a waste of your time and I’m sure every counter argument will be made in only the best of faith.

    remotelove ,

    This thread has just gotten boring now.

    PoliticalAgitator ,

    Then you’re enjoying yet another luxury that you strip from victims of gun violence.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    If Republicans actually gave a shit about mental health maybe we wouldn't have so many gun suicides.

    SheeEttin ,

    Or suicides generally.

    bobs_monkey ,

    Yeah but then they’d have even more mental gymnastics to do with bootstraps and all that

    wooki ,

    So suicide is a republican problem hey.

    Get a grip. Stop using every topic to gain political points, it’s disingenuous.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    They're the ones who keep saying "it's not a gun problem it's a mental health problem" and then doing fuck all to improve mental health, so yeah.

    wooki ,

    In this instance they are actually correct

    If you understand suicide even a little bit you would know men do not fuck about when it comes to suicide. There is little in between, no cry’s for help they are rare. guns are a tool to achieve the outcome and the statistics will never change.

    So this click bait title and stupid anti-gun garbage does not help and makes the issue harder to resolve. Men will ALWAYS be the higher suicide rate no matter what. Social support systems and mental health stigma for men needs to change.

    Up next water is wet.

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    But they still won't vote for comprehensive mental health coverage, and most of the men in the Republican party are poster boys for toxic masculinity.

    wooki , (edited )

    So? You’re obsessing over a political farce unless you want to join the party?

    Semi-Hemi-Demigod ,
    @Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

    I have a problem with blatant hypocrisy. Every gun nut in this thread saying "it's not guns it's mental health" and "men have a mental health crisis" and then go vote for assholes who do nothing to help either of them, and then say it's the Democrats who are the problem.

    wooki , (edited )

    Sounds like you’re obsessed with guns yourself and a nut in your own right. The core problem here is the social stigma stopping men from seeking help. When men get to the point of suicide it’s going to happen. Banning guns doesn’t change this even in othe western countries still have this same problem.

    This issue will take a generation or more to change. It won’t be resolved by banning guns or policy from parliament. It will take a change in social values and gender stereo types; the men don’t cry attitude. Which is engrained into core values. The best we can do is support those in our circles. Ask are you ok, help those we care for to find mental health services and we can also get better at helping those around us. Online support services like “are you ok” have resources for everyone.

    If you want to be engaged politically you will need to have a life experience to have impact. from their write to your local political member with that experience and don’t be anonymous. That way you’re counted as a constituent and you can have this conversation with them. But they may just chose to ignore your story so don’t hang your identity on a political party. I would rather see someone passionate about men’s mental health being a force for healing instead of yelling at the wind.

    Or maybe I got this wrong and you would make a great Democrat. Just don’t use hot topics to wedge issues it’s a disingenuous farce that will only get others to rally against your cause.

    Welt ,

    Your oversimplification was unnecessary the first time, stop copypasting your comments.

    wooki ,

    Said the asshole adding nothing to the topic to wedge anti-guns

    NocturnalMorning ,

    I don’t really see the problem with elderly people who decide they want to check out. If we allowed medically assisted death, they could die with dignity.

    WidowsFavoriteSon ,

    Most of it is caused by depression, not terminal illness.

    NocturnalMorning ,

    Doesn’t change my opinion

    NotMyOldRedditName ,

    I imagine in many cases depression caused by their failing bodies and inability to lead a happy life due to it. That and their partner probably recently dying.

    CADmonkey ,

    Still need the option to check out on your own terms.

    sederx ,

    what about improving their material condition so they can enjoy being old like other people in civilized countries???

    kingludd ,

    These are not mutually exclusive.

    CADmonkey ,

    That would be great. You realize TWO things are possible, right?

    NIB ,

    Suicide isnt reported in many places, because it is a social and religious taboo. For example the greek orthodox church still refuses to bury people who killed themselves(and 99% of greeks used to be christian orthodox, though atheism is becoming more popular nowadays).

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    Do they still refuse to bury unbaptized kids as well?

    ikidd ,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    Only if they were allowed to bugger them first.

    SnotFlickerman ,
    @SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Guns just add dangerous violence to everything.

    In a shooting event, the “good guy” trying to stop a bad guy with a gun can still accidentally hit innocent bystanders with bullets. By adding more bullets flying, they’ve effectively made the situation more dangerous, and now when incompetent cops show up, they’ll think anyone with a gun is the shooter.

    In a suicide, you’re not only risking it not working because you didn’t explode enough of your own head, you’re also putting other people in danger, depending on the caliber of bullet and gun used. You could easily have the bullet exit the back of your head and enter your neighbors apartment and harm someone on the other side. You could also live through your attempted suicide and have an even worse life with a totally disfigured face.

    Guns make everything worse.

    If you need defense in a shooting/violent attack, carry a high-powered flashlight that you can temporarily blind an attacker with, allowing you and others to escape in their confusion and/or get close enough to disarm the assailant.

    If you want to off yourself, buy a fucking Exit Bag and get some god damned helium.

    remotelove ,

    Guns have nothing to do with this and you fell victim to partisan click-bait. You got perfectly distracted from the real issue of suicide, it seems.

    You are making some bold assumptions that a person that is in that headspace actually gives a fuck about anything else or anyone else.

    DancingYetiCrab ,

    Art imitates life. I equate it to using a weapon as literary device. If you’re reading a book and the author mentions a gun on the table, that gun will be used.

    Think of how many minor traffic accidents or drunk arguments at birthday parties result in deadly consequences because just like our author, if someone has a gun, they may use it.

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