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Pope says 'backward' US conservatives replaced faith with ideology

Pope Francis condemned the “very strong, organised, reactionary attitude” in the US church and said Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.

Pope Francis has blasted the “backwardness” of some conservatives in the US Catholic Church, saying they have replaced faith with ideology and that a correct understanding of Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.

Francis’ comments were an acknowledgment of the divisions in the US Catholic Church, which has been split between progressives and conservatives who long found support in the doctrinaire papacies of St John Paul II and Benedict XVI, particularly on issues of abortion and same-sex marriage.

plebonix ,

Both parties are completely bed with and owned by corporations and they don’t give a fuck about regular people. That’s the actual problem with them.

Fedizen ,

I think the wedding of capitalism and religion is an unholy one. As soon as people get tax breaks and shit for religion it becomes a scam fest.

John brown used religion to justify blasting some slavers at harper’s ferry and I can’t think we don’t need more of that good spice today.

There are certain people that need some kind of easing of burden that religion can bring, but prosperity gospel and similar are essentially a type of necromancy where you steal as much power as you can from living humans to power your divine money machine.

LetterboxPancake ,

I mean he’s right, but maybe he wants to add his institution to that list as well.

Lt_Cdr_Data ,

Dude alienates the last devoted members his org has left. Religion cant change; they got their statues laid out in an unchangeable text.

The hostile takeover of islam is gonna accelerate even more in the coming years and our last bastion is helping that process.

wearling0600 ,

You’re flat out wrong when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church - I don’t know enough about Islam to say whether you’re right about that.

In church doctrine, Matthew 16:18 and 16:19, and again in Matthew 18:18, give ultimate authority to St Peter (the first Pope) and all the Popes that followed him.

Essentially the Pope can decide whatever, and it just is. Tomorrow the Pope could decide that gay marriage and abortion are a-okay, and they would be a-okay as far as heaven is concerned.

He might get lynched and the next Pope reverses it, but that mechanism for change exists, and has been used many times in the past - one notable recent one was when the Pope decided dogs go to heaven, so now dogs go to heaven.

Source: ex-Christian who was very involved within the Church institution.

SpiderShoeCult ,

It (the infailibility of the pope) is also the reason of the great schism of 1054, when orthodoxy split from catholicism, officialy naming themselves ‘the orthodox catholic church’ (meaning basically the catholic church that has the right dogma; people mostly drop the ‘catholic’ from conversation nowadays though).

In the grand scheme of things, it didn’t do much good, eastern orthodoxy is just as corrupt and power-hungry as catholicism.

Chunk ,

There is no hostile takeover of Islam because there is no centralized figure in Islam. The Muslims saw how politicized the early Roman Church became and intentionally took steps to prevent that. There is no pope. There are no bishops, archbishops, or any of that. Islam is intentionally fractured more so than Christianity.

Anyone can become an Imam (priest) and set up shop and start preaching. Clergy in a nation like Saudi Arabia maintain their religious authority through the government and social attitudes, not through a divine mandate (like the pope).

MenacingPerson ,

How did sevitavresnoc SU-s replace faith with ideology? I’ve never even heard of that group before

Grant_M , (edited )
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

Pope is 100% correct on this one. But on terrorist state ruzzia, he misses the mark by a mile www.youtube.com/watch?v=qirI4eSTNag

afraid_of_zombies ,

Pot meet kettle

Corran1138 ,

Ironic… he could see the problems in others… But not himself.

BKXcY86CHs2k8Coz ,

Didn’t this guy pay a personal visit to the christofascist who refused to grant a gay marriage license September 2015? Guy wore a similar hat anyway.

LillyPip ,

Has he met the Catholic Church?

Inquisitions? Witch burning? Who does he think did extremism biggest and best?

Sure, now they mostly just coverup for paedophiles and rampant baby murder at orphanages, but they were the OG extremists, let’s not kid ourselves.

HiddenLayer5 ,

They were also a huge player in the residential “schools” of North America, which was one of the major ways the Indigenous genocide was conducted.

SCB ,

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council

He’s telling people to have this same level of introspection. It’s really not complex or hypocritical.

This Pope has also tried a number of serious reforms within the Catholic Church so trying to paint him as hypocritical is pretty tough

ncronline.org/…/pope-francis-new-vatican-doctrina…

QHC ,

My conservative Catholic family thinks the current Pope is a plant by the liberals, so he must be doing something right in my book.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

They changed nothing. It was all sweet-talk and no changes. There is still no prosecution for child molesters, still no action for all atrocities. He’s just PR man they put in place to stop the dumpster fire previous one was.

SCB ,

Lmao.

Seriously imagine thinking the Catholic Church elected a PR man as pope.

That’s fucking adorable. Like just look at the comment right below mine

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, let’s play a different game then. What has changed with catholic church since he was elected. Mind you, not what he said will change, but actually changed?

pleasemakesense ,
@pleasemakesense@lemmy.world avatar

Did you… even read the text outside of the title?

Soulg ,

The pope: “maintaining rigid and unchanging ideology is bad and room for change and growth must be allowed”

You: “um excuse me but hundreds of years ago the church killed people”

The church sucks ass but this is the absolute worst take regarding this specific post.

LillyPip , (edited )

Not hundreds of years ago. Maybe my sarcasm didn’t come across through text, but their atrocities are still being uncovered from only a couple of decades ago, and they’re still committing atrocities on a slightly smaller scale today (though I’m sure their victims – still alive today – would argue they’re not lesser).

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a leg to stand on here, and it’s gross that they’re pretending they do.

e: didn’t close my brackets

icepuncher69 , (edited )

Honestly this is more a sign that americans culture is getting more rothen, just straight up, censorship is gaining a very real foot (in both sides) and its been working its way to make the religious nuts into full on nuts, and while they probably have been this way since the begining, religion kinda limited their madness by scaring them into believing they where gona go to hell if they didnt behave, but their bipartisan bullshit managed to replace religion in their minds and Just make them dance to wathever bullshit their favorite politician spews out this week.

And the left is no better, you guys used to promote anti-hate and freedom of speech, but now, What the hell happened to you? their head is so up their own assess that they became what they sought out to destroy, instead of promoting sane discussion they relegated into bipartisan tribalism and started censoring people they didnt agree with, even going as far as to defend the democratic party, even if their interests are as against the general population as the republicans, but since they where the ones that supposedly didn’t want to oppress social groups (even if they totally still fucking do just look at the fucking border ffs) they are right and everything they spew out is right, and while trying to make a safe space online, in academia, and in political discourse, is just naive, promoting respectful language and tolerance to diferent social groups is not a bad thing, but the way they handle it is the definition of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”, specially in media.

They ended up making bipartisan hate grow into the other side on top of the hate they already had, and politicians (democrats and republicans ) took full advantage of this and we have what we have now in the political big picture.

American politics is just a fucking reality show now and I believe they deserve it, only problem is they take the rest of the world between their crotch and fuck us all up since they rule the world/economy. I really hope those guys wake up from their bipartisan bitch slapping nightmare and start fighting the real war which is the class war. Against, you know, the only assholes that get benefited by you too infighting.

Anyhow rant over, down votes to the right. But whrite a comment first, i really whant to hear why you disagree.

ineedaunion ,

Pretty sure it was a Roman Catholic priest that burned all the Mayan texts. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest destroyer and oppressor that ever existed.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Religion is the biggest scourge against humans. Controlling behavior, brainwashing the young and stolen untold trillions of $$. Fuck religion. They all need to be labeled as cults and treated as harshly.

JustZ ,

I would settle for taxing them.

ChewTiger ,

Would definitely be a step in the right direction. I’d even be ok with exceptions for the tiny churches in small towns.

afraid_of_zombies ,

I agree but only because they tend to have budgets so small that they aren’t worth taxing.

AA5B ,

At the risk of interrupting the circlejerk here, most churches have tiny budgets that aren’t worth taxing, and run by clergy with very little pay. The other side of that is the established ones sit on land in the center of towns that has been in their hands for decades or centuries: they may not be able to afford the property taxes.

On the other hand, if you were thinking of modern televangelist millionaires, by all means tax their income. I don’t know where to draw the line and it’s probably good to be conservative about it, but some of these people really seem to have crossed it already

Railing5132 ,

I think a better option would be stripping the tax exempt status from the ones that politik from the pulpit. Actually enforce the law we have now instead of being afraid of looking like we’re persecuting them. Hell, they all have that complex already anyway.

Taxing them all would just open the floodgates.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Taxing them all would just open the floodgates.

You say that as if it’s a bad thing.

These assholes should deal with a real flood for once.

sanpedropeddler ,

I dont think the churches that just sit and read a book are really deserving of a “flood”. I also wouldn’t call taxes a flood though, so I’m not opposed to that.

atempuser23 ,

It’s very inline with the church’s teaching to pay taxes.

Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and give to God the things that are God’s.” The men were amazed at what Jesus said.

There is no religious conflict at all with taxing churches.

sanpedropeddler ,

There is no religious conflict at all with taxing churches.

You gave one example for one religion. I don’t necessarily think taxing churches is a bad idea, but I don’t think that’s a great argument for it.

atempuser23 ,

This is in a thread about a sect of Christianity. I am not aware of another religion that uses the word church. The dictionary definition is christian house of worship. Jewish Synagogue. Islamic Mosque. Hindu Temple. Norse Hof. Greek and Roman temples.

Talking about taxing churches is about a tax on Christian houses of worship. There is no Christian religious rule against it, which means that it would be a stretch for anyone to claim that the government is violating the first amendment.

sanpedropeddler ,

I assumed you meant churches as all places of worship. If you meant you want to only tax Christians, then I completely disagree with you.

iegod ,

Not good enough. They need to strip that status even from the ones that don’t.

SCB ,

If you allow taxing churches you open the door for Republicans to just tax every church they disagree with, and I’m pretty sure you can figure out how that will go.

afraid_of_zombies ,

Oh the horror

QHC ,

I don’t understand the problem.

SCB ,

The problem is there will still be untaxed churches and all of those churches will be evangelical churches that promote the Republican party.

All the others will be taxed out of existence.

Speculater ,

I believe the intent of the first comment was all churches would be taxed.

SCB ,

That’s just not how government works in practice, however.

Potatofish ,

Tell me more about how taxing churches works

SCB , (edited )

You are aware that the entire reason taxing churches was a big deal in the 18th century is that we’ve already seen what happens when taxing churches is made political, right?

Do you know this is a topic with historical precedence, in a situation in which it is laughably easy to predict what a certain party would do with this power?

Potatofish ,

Hello tax historian. Surely we can do laws better than taxation in the 18th century. Tax churches.

SCB ,

I’d love to think so but here we are banning books and shit.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

While true, how the us government works in practice currently cannot be a barrier for ideas. I mean that it isn’t working at all

SCB ,

I’d argue being a policy realist is an absolute necessity, rather than a “barrier for ideas.”

I am a volunteer climate lobbyist in a deeply red constituency, so I very much live a life bound by practicality.

My rep I lobby most often has solar panels and drives an EV and votes against climate change proposals unless we can sell them as “job creation” so he can sell them to his constituents.

The messy details absolutely take precedence over what we’d like.

ChewTiger ,

IDK, if we’re comparing scourges against humanity I’d say “the rich” in general are worse, be they kings, CEOs, religious icons, politicians, or whatever. Their pursuit of money and the power to keep that money corrupts everything. They ruin everything from companies to countries and even religions (makes them even worse).

Really though, the most evil thing is cancer. It kills indiscriminately and tortures its victims the whole way. Even if you win, you never get the peace of knowing it’s truly gone. True evil.

ineedaunion ,

Hitler bent the knee to the Roman Catholics. Nuff said.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

100%

And the Catholics were cool with him.

ineedaunion ,

Look at how much hate we’re getting. All of my posts about corporatism and GOP spouting nonsense getting blasted. This place is another spot for GOP, facism and the church to have a voice in the form of bots.

HardNut ,

I’d have a hard time believing that Hitler was super cool with the people who worship a Jew as a god.

Hitler in his table talks: “The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science … Gradually the myths crumble. All that is left to prove that nature there is no frontier between the organic and inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light, but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.”

Good rule of thumb is to never underestimate Hitler’s ability to hate a group of people lol

ineedaunion ,

Don’t have a hard time believing it. Christianity has indoctrinated most into believing Jesus was white. Just look at all these southern baptist molesters that want Trump as their new god.

HardNut ,

I’m sorry, I’m genuinely not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that because you believe Christian propaganda to be that powerful, you’re ready to believe that Hitler also fell for the same propaganda? I get why you’re ready to make that assumption, but I don’t think choosing to believe an assumption made out of heavy bias is appropriate in the face of evidence directly to the contrary. Hitler outright condemned the belief more than once

ineedaunion ,

I didn’t say that at all. I’m saying Christianity isn’t about God. It’s about power, slavery, money, pedophilia. Same as with the elite now. Hitler was just a part of it. It’s all a big club.

CeeBee ,

Hitler also loved dogs. So not sure there’s anything to that.

ineedaunion ,

Pedo apologist.

CeeBee ,

Nice strawman

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Really though, the most evil thing is cancer

Another reason why, if God exists at all, they’re not worth a penny of my income or a moment of my time.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Yuh if we’re gonna go that deep, the rock are responsible for the deep corruption running thru society, across all society’s ills around the world. I agree that american religion’s descent into facism-promotion is a symptom of that rather than a driving force.

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

And yet a lot of people are still religious so if you’re running around suggesting destroying the thing they love and feel positive about you might find they are unwilling to listen to anything you have to say. Right now I really would rather we focus on collective action over the climate than worry about whose version of faith is correct.

ike ,

When this sorry undeserving species is all dead, alien archaeologists will learn how religion was the biggest, most successful device used by the powerful to sedate the poor and keep their interests driving everything (including destroying the habitability of the planet for short term luxury), from the early civilizations until the very end. Then they will find your comment on an HDD and fucking laugh at you, at all of our stupid asses.

SCB ,

Edgy enough to qualify as AtheistPosting but unfortunately too silly to be fun.

eestileib ,

------ian doomsday fantasy is one of the major drivers of climate change. They have always viewed the world as disposable, indeed, the sooner disposed the better.

What middle ground is there?

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

I reject that premise entirely.

Maybe anti-religious people need to make an effort to understand how to better communicate their views as frankly many cone across as the same as bigots do.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

I dunno if it’s actually possible (for me) to be honest and communicate evenly with the faithful. I cannot see their beliefs as anything other than wishful thinking and fantasy.

Not to say the religious are stupid, i don’t believe in binary smart/stupid in most cases. I know some very intelligent religious folks who have what i consider at best a blind spot for their belief.

I frankly believe it to be impossible. Any discussion where one side has “faith” to fall back on and calls poking holes in religion as an attack on that faith is fated to fail before you start

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

Don’t talk about their faith then. Talk about what needs to be done and if a member of an Abrahamic faith asks why remind them it’s what God told Adam to do. Genesis makes it clear humanity is to tend the earth not exterminate all life on it.

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

Well that is a good point. I’m not well versed in the Bible however, and i would hesitate to quote it even if i were. how would it sound to someone faithful to have someone without, quoting their faith at them? It would further require my reading the Bible with the express purpose of busting their chops, which wouldn’t feel good to me.

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

It’s literally in the first book of Genesis. Takes about 4 minutes to read

the_post_of_tom_joad ,

But

how would it sound to someone faithful to have someone without, quoting their faith at them? It would further require my reading the Bible with the express purpose of busting their chops, which wouldn’t feel good to me.

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

You don’t need to quote exactly you just ask what God tasked Adam with.

vettnerk ,

“Cult” is just something the big congregation calls the small congregation.

SolarMech ,

There’s a whole list of 8 points over what constitute a cult.

I don’t remember the whole thing, but it was something like : Cults don’t let you leave. If you do leave, your family and friends who are still in the cult will not speak to you. Cults control you in details. They make sure you are tired at the end of the day, too tired to think for yourself. Cults make you dependent financially. Once you are that deep in, leaving means starting over economically.

There’s more, but it is different from how most people experience mainstream religions (I mean there are pockets here and there that are very cultish, but really the religion as a whole is a different beast that just works differently than an actual cult).

eestileib ,

Tell me more about how you’ve never been in a church in the south.

sanpedropeddler ,

I’ve been to multiple churches in the south, like everywhere some are better some are worse.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Agreed.

I’ll gain an iota of respect for Frankie and Catholics when they unilaterally decide to stop donating money to this church until they purge all of the child rapists and reform their teachings on confessions so child rapists are no longer protected.

SCB ,

You think the Pope donates money to the church?

Archer , (edited )

“Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

We’re doing pretty good on the king front, lets work on the priests a bit

MonkRome ,

We’ve just changed the form of monarchal feudalism, it’s still very much alive. Just disguised as CEOs and Presidents in our present oligarchy. But they might as well be kings and queens. And an enormous amount of those people still manipulate religion as a means to holding on to power. We are a long way from strangling our last king or priest.

ApexHunter ,

Religion, at its core, is basically rules that state “don’t be a dick.” Unfortunately, all of the dicks didn’t get the message.

Comment105 ,

It’s not "don’t be a dick’.

It’s “do as we want you to do”

Plenty of the rules are “be a dick, like this:”

Plenty of the rules are “don’t do this objectively harmless thing”

Plenty of the rulez are “do this ridiculously pointless thing”

ApexHunter ,

Yes, modern religion has many rules made by the dicks once they took over. Before the dicks rules were things like don’t steal shit, don’t fuck your neighbor’s wife, don’t murder people, don’t lie about shit, etc. The dicks were so bad that some other guy had to come along and say “seriously guys, stop being dicks”. But the dicks didn’t like that so they killed him.

LrdThndr ,

Phallus 6:9 - And lo’ the Lord said unto Clitoris, “Be thou not a dick by thine actions, nor by thy words, nor by thy thoughts.”

MartyFarty ,

Amen!

Touching_Grass ,

All of culture is “do as we want you to do.” We’re hierarchical animals.

LegionEris ,

Plenty of the rules are “don’t do this objectively harmless thing”

Plenty of the rulez are “do this ridiculously pointless thing”

Most declarations of what religions do and don’t don’t do miss Discordianism pretty hard, but you got us on those.

Exhibits: A) Don’t eat hotdog buns. B) Go off alone on a Friday and eat a hotdog with a bun.

Good looking out for us religious minorities.

afraid_of_zombies ,

And yet the golden rule usually doesn’t get written down until multiple generations after the religion is formed. Took almost a century for Christianity to bother.

Pipoca ,

Ish.

Many religions are more “don’t be a dick to your fellow brothers in faith, but feel free to be a dick to others”. In-group out-group dynamics were historically quite important.

You know - “don’t murder”, but at the same time Deuteronomy says

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.

Also

(19) “You are not to lend at interest to your brother, no matter whether the loan is of money, food or anything else that can earn interest. 21 (20) To an outsider you may lend at interest, but to your brother you are not to lend at interest, so that Adonai your God will prosper you in everything you set out to do in the land you are entering in order to take possession of it.

CeeBee ,

You know - “don’t murder”, but at the same time Deuteronomy says

If you take each verse at face value, this is a problem and what you imply is true.

But the thing you quoted from Deuteronomy were instructions to the Israelites. It’s recorded history, not instruction. You can’t just point to a verse in the Bible (like Acts 8:8 "Saul, for his part, approved of his murder") and say “see? The Bible says to do bad things!”

And going deeper shows that the Mosaic Law (the laws in the old testament, excluding the ten commandments), part of which is in your second block quote, was superceded by the Law Covenant when Jesus died. Again, it was a law directed specifically at Jews of the time.

You can kinda think of the first five Bible books (called the Torah in Judaism) as a speed run of history. So much happens in terms of time covered in those five books.

Pipoca ,

Not everyone who considers Deuteronomy to be scripture is Christian. For example, basically any rabbi would disagree with you.

The Deuteronomic code is literally presented as instruction from Moses to Israel as a normative set of rules for israel to follow. Many of the rules in it are included in the traditional lists of the Torah’s 613 commandments.

I don’t know of similar commandments in the new testament, but it’s had its fair share of religious leaders inciting sectarian wars, pogroms, persecution, etc. For example, Pope Paul IV wrote a decree that forced the Jews of Rome into a ghetto in 1555, prevented them from owning property or working most skilled jobs. The Spanish Inquisition primarily targeted Jews and Muslims who converted to Christianity under threat of exile.

CeeBee ,

Not everyone who considers Deuteronomy to be scripture is Christian. For example, basically any rabbi would disagree with you.

Sure, but this thread is mostly about Christianity (the post is about the Pope and the Catholic Church).

The Deuteronomic code is literally presented as instruction from Moses to Israel as a normative set of rules for israel to follow.

Yes. I said basically this. I wrote: But the thing you quoted from Deuteronomy were instructions to the Israelites.

I don’t know of similar commandments in the new testament

Because there aren’t any like that.

had its fair share of religious leaders inciting sectarian wars, pogroms, persecution, etc. For example, Pope Paul IV wrote a decree that forced the Jews of Rome into a ghetto in 1555, prevented them from owning property or working most skilled jobs. The Spanish Inquisition primarily targeted Jews and Muslims who converted to Christianity under threat of exile.

And? Your next door neighbour can be a “Christian”, go to church every week, etc, but then find out he’s a regular thief and had murdered someone. Would you then conclude there must be a commandment somewhere in the Bible that condones stealing and murder? Or would you conclude that he didn’t follow the principles of the Bible he proclaimed to believe in?

Examples of people doing bad things in the name of the Bible is not evidence of anything against the Bible. It’s just an example of terrible people being manipulative, exploitative, and ultimately evil. Many people throughout history (and many alive today) have realized that many people are more willing to listen to and accept what you say when you claim it’s from the Bible. These people don’t care about the Bible, they just care that it’s a tool they can use for manipulation.

Pipoca ,

Examples of people doing bad things in the name of the Bible is not evidence of anything against the Bible.

Christianity, and catholicism more specifically, are more than just the Bible itself.

Religious teachings evolve over time based off of new reinterpretations of old passages, teachings from influential leaders, folk traditions that spring up, etc. Those are all part of the religion, too.

For example, most Christians would say that the serpent in the garden of eden is Satan. Yet Genesis doesn’t say anything about that, and the New Testament doesn’t explicitly say it either. Mostly, it’s a folk tradition some people found a couple verses you could squint at to support it.

And particularly in the case of Catholicism, there’s a world of difference between a pope issuing an official bull, and your neighbor being a catholic who happens to be a shitty person. There’s a huge difference between a random person teaching to be nice to your neighbor but shitty to outsiders, and for St Jerome to do that.

CeeBee ,

Christianity, and catholicism more specifically, are more than just the Bible itself.

Catholicism yes. Christianity, no. Christianity is literally based on the Bible and a “Christian” is a follower of Christ (it’s actually what the word means).

most Christians would say that the serpent in the garden of eden is Satan. Yet Genesis doesn’t say anything about that, and the New Testament doesn’t explicitly say it either.

Well, that’s not exactly correct. It’s true that in Genesis it doesn’t say “the snake in the garden that spoke to Eve was Satan”. However, Satan is referred to as “the father of the lie” and “the original serpent”. Satan is the only one to directly challenge God’s right to rule and the lie to Eve was the first challenge. It has nothing to do with folk tradition. There are other supporting scriptions also.

And particularly in the case of Catholicism, there’s a world of difference between a pope issuing an official bull, and your neighbor being a catholic who happens to be a shitty person.

Yes, there is a difference in the sense that the Pope has a huge and wide reaching audience and the neighbour is mostly a nobody. But that doesn’t matter when we’re talking about their conduct as it relates to “doing the right thing according to God”. Each person is accountable to God for their own behaviour and actions.

On the other hand, there’s an argument to be had about whether or not Catholicism should even be considered Christian anymore. There are so many doctrines and teachings that aren’t in the Bible, or flat out taken from other “pagan” religions (religious syncretism). Sometimes even going against teachings in the Bible.

Reference:

John 8:44 “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”

Revelation 12:9 “So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan”

MonkRome ,

any rabbi would disagree with you.

Have even met a single rabbi, no two rabbi’s agree on anything.

Pipoca ,

And going deeper shows that the Mosaic Law (the laws in the old testament, excluding the ten commandments), part of which is in your second block quote, was superceded by the Law Covenant when Jesus died. Again, it was a law directed specifically at Jews of the time.

While rabbis don’t agree on much, the official line of all the denominations is that messianic Jews are Christians, not Jews.

Every “rabbi” that accepts that the Torah was superceded by Jesus is a messianic Jew, basically by definition. That makes them not a rabbi, but a Christian minister in cosplay.

MonkRome ,

I don’t disagree with you entirely I was pointing out that using absolutes with Jews is fraught with contradictions. I wasn’t necessarily trying to support the person you responded to. Even within the framework that they were rules to follow there is an extremely wide variety of interpretation. And while I agree with your messianic assessment, as an atheist Jew that remember a tiny amount, I also think gatekeeping a religion is sketchy territory. Most fundamentalists don’t believe any other sect is truly part of their religion, hard to draw lines using the perspectives of people that have a clear in group mentality. To me, if you say you’re a Jew, you’re a Jew, I have no reason to challenge the claim.

idunnololz ,
@idunnololz@lemmy.world avatar

The problem is “don’t be a dick” meant different things in different points in time. Now, enough time has elapsed that there are a huge amount of different iterations of “don’t be a dick” rules and people just pick and choose which rules suits them.

CeeBee ,

If you’re talking about all religions, I can’t speak to that. But if we’re talking about “Christians”, then that’s not the case. “Love your neighbour” and “Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you” are pretty hard to interpret “differently”. There’s no excuse.

idunnololz ,
@idunnololz@lemmy.world avatar

It’s not about interpreting things differently and more about picking and choosing what to believe.

CeeBee ,

This is true also

dipshit ,

Some dicks created religion.

Mamertine ,

When the rules are laws, lawyers argue in front of judges and define the grey areas. They change the grey areas from time to time. We as a society have agreed to have a single interpretation of those rules.

In religion, when people don’t agree on the rules or how they should be interpreted, they can break apart and form their own religion. There is no governing body with the power to enforce the single interpretation.

Thus, people who missed the dont be a dick memo just find each other and pretend their interpretation of the thousands of years old text is more valid than the don’t be a dick crowd.

stingpie ,

Calling religion the biggest scourge on humanity is a huge exageratrion. I’d probably say slavery is significantly worse, and human trafficking shows no signs of stopping. Capitalism is also clearly worse, and it’s the most impactful force today. A large reason religion, and specifically Christianity, has gotten worse in recent years is because of the influence of capitalism.

eestileib ,

Same hydra, different heads.

sanpedropeddler ,

What is the hydra in this situation? Is it just the concept of evil?

MedicPigBabySaver ,

No. I’m correct.

SpiderShoeCult ,

I’d elaborate a bit on my interpretation of what the fella said.

The religion in point - catholicism, and maybe we can generalize to all abrahamic religions, I’m not very familiar with other religions to speak of them, instill a way of thinking that doing wrong is all fine and well as long as you repent and ask for forgiveness. Sound sensible, right? Except we’re dealing with people here so they take it to mean that you can do all sorts of crap as long as you say you’re sorry. It got so bad at some point that the pope was selling indulgences. ‘Give me money and I’ll let you sin’.

They also instill a sort of moral superiority on the adherents to said religions versus the pagans.

So yeah, slavery is worse (and I’m counting human trafficking here as well - it’s the modern version), but is it not facilitated by the mindset instilled by religion? First - you see them as savages needing to be civilized - that’s the moral superiority talking - you enslave them, BUT you bring them to god as well, so there’s a load off your moral issues. Add to that the fact that even if you were wrong and did bad stuff, you didn’t ‘know’ any better, and it’s ok cause hellfire won’t get you because you repent, there’s your free ticket.

On the other hand, if you kidnap and force good christians into sexual slavery, you can be pretty sure that you most likely won’t get murdered / maimed while you’re raping because their moral teachings say to turn the other cheek instead of fighting back. And one of the 10 comandments is thou shalt not kill. Also a belief in sky-papa dishing out punishment in the afterlife makes people less inclined to seek vengeance (compounded with the previous point - thou shalt submit to being dehumanized by a fellow human without recourse).

This is an oversimplification to make a point, but sure, religion is seemingly not worse than other crap people are capable of but it sure sets the groundwork nicely. Sort of like you need to know a language before you can swear in it. A tool, but less like a hammer and more like a scythe. One good use, but so many other bad ones.

kromem , (edited )

I like the similar sentiment from a while back:

The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'

  • Jesus (but in a text buried in a jar for centuries after becoming punishable by death for just possessing it)
UsernameIsTooLon ,

Modern day religion. In the past your faith was quite important and dictated morals. It’s unfortunate it’s been so twisted over the years. And by past I’m not just saying the 50s, but even back in the 1500s.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Religion has sucked shit since it started & the first scam artist started stealing $ in the name of a fake “god”.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

Everything has two sides to it. I think it was predominantly used more for good back in earlier civilizations, but I don’t think there’s a need for it today.

It’s much easier now in 2023 to be able to look back at how religion was used for thousands of years and criticize it. I’m an atheist myself and I think the necessity of religion was to learn from it and advanced society. Today I think we’re so advanced we no longer need it.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Religion has never been good.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

What? Look, I’m an atheist myself by choice but I’ve seen religion fix up a homeless man and through “God” he was able to get himself back on his feet and reenter society. I think reddit/Lemmy has too big of a hate on religion, but in the outside world it’s still the majority dominated beliefs.

Plus you can’t overgeneralize “religion” as there’s about 4000 of them. Buddhism is pretty dope if you read into it. Regardless, I think we will see a shift into more atheists/agnostic people in the future though.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Religion is abhorrent no matter how you keep trying to paint it.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

Yea I don’t think I’m changing your opinion here. I think everything has two sides to it. I’m of the opinion of just let people live their lives. Shoving atheism down everyone’s throat is equally as annoying as shoving religion. Remember that religion ≠ Christianity. The Greeks gods are also pretty cool in my opinion.

It’s just human nature to “worship” something. Whether it be materialism or idealism. As I see it, there couldn’t have been an early world without religion because humans are just that way.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

If your Mom is being scammed by a Nigerian prince via email, you would shout to the rooftops to tell her and try to protect her.

Brain washed religious people should be warned just as vigorously.

UsernameIsTooLon , (edited )

My mom isn’t going to be scammed by the Nigerian prince if she already knows it is a scam. That’s the importance of educating yourself.

Brain washed religous people ≠ religion. That’s my distinction. Just because people murder each other in Harry Potter doesn’t mean kids are going to interpret that to go on and be murderers.

The people who should be ridiculed for the actions are the murderers, not the entire fanbase.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

Educating the religious should be a priority. Pull them out of the cults and save them from giving their $ or time to a huge scam.

There is no defending any religion.

Adios, muchacho.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

Dude I’ve literally been agreeing with you. From my first comment I don’t think there’s a place for religion in MODERN society. But at the same time, we wouldn’t have this current modern society if it weren’t for religion in the first place. Many early philosophers and scientists believed in “God” to some degree, despite questioning their faith, too. I’m not defending it today, but there was a time and place for it at some point. It’s archaic today, but that doesn’t mean there haven’t been good influences of it throughout history. Therefore I can’t say religion is all 100% bad. It’s original intentions weren’t that, but thousands of years of humans playing telephone through a book has led to its awful usage today.

Plus if my gram who is a god fearing woman is dying on her death bed, I’d rather her die peacefully with the lesser understanding of the universe than keep telling her that her beliefs are wrong and there’s no afterlife. I’m okay with the acceptance of no religion, but not everyone is completely prepared for that. Education is key and that’s why our current society is shifting towards more atheists than ever in human history.

That being said, as long as strong beliefs are held true by individuals, then even a “religion” of anti-religions could exist. May I introduce you to Pastafarianism lol, they worship the flying spaghetti monster to prove the point that “God” is not needed as a concept, but in doing so they’ve created a new religion, just one without a deity.

prole ,

Religion has always been a cancer on humanity. We don’t need an imaginary sky daddy for morals. We would have got there (and likely much quicker and much better) without religion.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

I’m not religious myself, but “God” played a role in at least trying to comprehend the world before science. Whatever we didn’t know was “God” until we did know. I don’t think modern society needs it, but our concept and understanding of the world and universe is so broad now that we don’t.

It’s dangerous now to label whatever we don’t know as “God” but earlier in humanity I think it’s part of the reason why some (not all) laws and morals were established in the first place.

LazyBane ,

Religion can fuel some truly abhorrent things, but at the same time I know people who have used religion and faith to pull themselves out of a really bad spot in life.

There can be a middle ground between admonishing all religious practices and dogmatic bible thumpers, and that starts with religion being a understood as a personal choice and how people interpret the religion being a reflection on their self and not the every religious person ever.

MedicPigBabySaver ,

No. Religion is a scam. Lies to all it’s members. Steals from anyone that tithes or donates anything, including their time.

Wahots ,
@Wahots@pawb.social avatar

The pope ain’t perfect. But goddamn do I love him stripping corrupt officials of their position, being much more chill towards my queer brothers and sisters worldwide, and telling the US arm to remove the giant sticks from their ass over abortion and divorce.

I hope he lives till 130 and keeps being a stabilizing force for good. It’s a rarity to see religious officials who are not only reasonable, but actively trying to make the world a slightly better place.

Son_of_dad ,

You’re just buying into and regurgitating his PR. The Pope talks and acts in opposition to his bullshit platitudes. It’s business as usual against the lgbt community in every Catholic Church across most of the world, including the Vatican. He himself was a known homophobe long before he was pope. He continues to ignore and refuses to meet with the victims of priest sexual abuse. He is a bullshiter and I can’t believe anyone on the left buys into any of it

AA5B ,

Have you ever been to a Catholic Church?

Son_of_dad ,

Yes, the vast majority stick to their own politics and beliefs, regardless of what the Pope says. Go to South America and visit a church, see how lgbt acceptance works out down there.

Thankfully I have no reason to ever go near a Catholic Church again.

LarryTheMatador ,

Personally I dont frequent child brothels

BeardedBlaze ,
@BeardedBlaze@lemmy.world avatar

How high were you when you were this lol

kamenoko ,

I don’t think a octogenarian virgin who believes in imaginary friends is the authority I’d nominate to lecture me on abortion and divorce.

kroy ,

except he did this as a reaction to Catholics leaving in a manner that is basically HEMORRHAGING numbers.

This is adapt or die reaction, not adapt because it’s the right thing to do. Let them die.

PersnickityPenguin ,

You’re wrong. Pope Francis is the most liberal pope who’s ever existed and has pushed for human rights and decriminalization of the LGBTQ community.

kroy ,

Have you been listening???

In Slovakia, gay adoption AND marriage was on a referendum, and weirdly enough, Francis threw his support because against it. To “preserve the family”

  1. “Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings. Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.”

So “kill a few million people with nukes” is the same as “gender theory”

  1. “The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life.”

God loves you but you ain’t equal. Homosexuality is a sin, but not a crime. You are welcome in the Church, but you are also immoral and going to hell.

Sheesh, I was worrying a bit there. At least I’m not violating the laws of man.

ApexHunter ,

The Church’s position in general is that everyone is immoral and going to hell without the Church’s help. (See original sin, the sacrament of confession, etc)

He isn’t saying “gay is now ok.” The pope is saying that the sin of homosexuality shouldn’t be treated any different than the sin of lying, greed, stealing, envy, cheating, murder, child molestation, etc.

I think the quote from him below expresses his viewpoint with more nuance than I could:

“The door is open to everyone, everyone has their own space in the church. How will each person live it? We help people live so that they can occupy that place with maturity, and this applies to all kinds of people.”

“What I don’t like at all, in general, is that we look at the so-called ‘sin of the flesh’ with a magnifying glass. If you exploited workers, if you lied or cheated, it didn’t matter, and instead relevant were the sins below the waist.”

“We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature, or are not capable. To accompany people spiritually and pastorally takes a lot of sensitivity and creativity.”

“Everyone, everyone, everyone, are called to live in the church. Never forget that.”

kroy ,

Great. Just let me know when all those homosexuals the Church is so accepting of are allowed to receive any sacraments.

LarryTheMatador ,

Go where youre celebrated, not where youre tolerated. I care as much about the popes view on sexuality as i care for a 5 year olds opinion on foreign policy.

PersnickityPenguin ,

Oh interesting, had not heard that. I don’t stay updated with the popes latest tbh.

Thanks!

eestileib ,

Don’t buy it. He’s still a snake in a robe.

SCB ,

You’re telling me the Pope is Catholic? That’s fuckin insane man. How weird!

AA5B ,

Not familiar with the situation, but looking it up, I see same sex marriage banned by the constitution, and an attempt at a referendum failed with low turnout. That doesn’t track with a religious figure riling up the conservatives.

I only have English speaking sources to go on, but the only Christian organizational involvement is see is against gender change surgery. Im not going to argue that, but it is also a lot narrower than your claim

kroy ,

“I greet the pilgrims from Slovakia and, through them, I wish to express my appreciation to the entire Slovak Church, encouraging everyone to continue their efforts in defense of the family, the vital cell of society,”

Seems pretty straightforward…

AA5B ,

It’s not just that he’s the most progressive pope ever, but supposedly he was elected for exactly that reason. There’s a lot of inertia to change, like anywhere else, but enough of the leadership recognized where they wanted to go, enough to elect him

Syrc ,

I’ve been pissed at him since the Charlie Hebdo situation, and even if I might agree with some of the things he says, fuck him.

AA5B ,

I never heard of that so had to look it up. A bunch of Muslim fundamentalists in France got angry and killed people at a satirical magazine. Not sure how that’s the Pope’s fault.

Syrc ,

He basically said they had it coming.

Honytawk ,

He said that religions shouldn’t be mocked.

And as one of the biggest persons in one religion, it is important to say that about other religions. They are kind of the same, so it would be like mocking himself.

While I don’t agree with the statement that ideas shouldn’t be mocked, I get it.

Syrc ,

Putting aside the fact that it’s basically victim blaming, he went further:

“If [a close friend] says a swear word against my mother, he’s going to get a punch in the nose”

What happened to “turning the other cheek”? Does that not count when someone makes the horrible crime that is satire on religion? Hypocrisy at its finest, no better way to describe it.

LarryTheMatador ,

The religious should be mocked relentlessly wherever they go. Bringing up religion in polite company should be treated the same as exposing your genitalia. Social shame is the best tool to put this bronze age scourge to rest.

eestileib ,

He said allowing people to transition was as dangerous as nuclear weapons.

Yeah, wow, such love and support.

HawlSera ,

This is why I differentiate between Christians and Xtians

MrMukagee ,

Says man who leads an organization that hasn’t changed in 2000 years.

thisbenzingring ,

You are an ignorant blowhard if you believe what you just said. I’m not going to say they are up with the times but what you said is stupid. The fact that mass is done in the local languages instead of Latin was huge! And they also recognize that big bang theory and the sun is the center of our solar system which exists in the Milky Way galaxy that isn’t the center of the universe.

holmesandhoatzin ,

I would hope they recognize the Big Bang theory, given that the idea was first put forward by a Jesuit.

But seriously, a lot of people don’t really get how big the switch from Latin was. My dad attended church pre- and post-Vatican II and said that so many people complained loudly that we’d no longer have mass in a dead language. I guess the Liturgy of the Eucharist used to be done with the priest facing away from the congregation and a lot of people also complained when it was done facing the congregation. God forbid the plebes feel like participants in their own religion.

gowan ,
@gowan@reddthat.com avatar

They have paid for so much western science

Whatsupdude ,

Religion in general is pretty backwards as well.

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