Deputy who killed Sonya Massey was removed from the Army, had DUIs and needed ‘high stress decision’ classes, records show

givesomefucks , 7 hours ago

If we ever get a progressive president maybe we’ll actually fix it.

Until “bad apples” fuck up the rest of the cops money, they won’t care.

Start taking the settlements out of their union/pension accounts. And all of a sudden I think cops will start electing different kinds of unions reps, ones that won’t fight hardest to keep the worst cops on duty

n2burns , 6 hours ago

If we ever get a progressive president maybe we’ll actually fix it.

I’m not sure a president could make the necessary changes on their own. I think you’d also need a progressive congress.

givesomefucks , 2 hours ago

FDR got a lot of shit done.

Even tho he wanted more and the two parties unified against him.

An actually progressive president can guilt their party into progress, because he’ll go to their voters and flat out say the Dems they voted for is holding the whole country back, so next primary he’s supporting a challenger.

Strangely enough, just the threat of that is often enough.

Hell, Bernie is just a senator but that didn’t stop him from going to WV and telling voters that about Manchin.

And Manchin started supporting the party more.

Worked a hell of a lot better than Bidens strategy of publicly admitting he would even try to change someone’s mind.

timbuck2themoon , 6 hours ago

Not really under the purview of a president though (nor are they really a king, even with the insane Scotus decision.)

People need to vote in local elections for people to fix this as most departments are locally run and overseen. At most you might get your state to pass something but even then that would be only blue states.

It would be nice to have Congress do something but i don’t ever see that happening as Republicans wouldn’t go near it and even some Democrats wouldn’t.

Problem is a lot of people don’t really care as much about this as other things.

octopus_ink , 6 hours ago

Until “bad apples” fuck up the rest of the cops money, they won’t care.

I’ve come to realize this is the only answer. Settlements have to get big enough that taxes get high enough that localities are motivated to put actual pressure on their police. Having said that, apparently the number has to get pretty big before folks start to care.

kungen , 4 hours ago

taxes get high enough that localities are motivated to put actual pressure on their police

Yes, but then you see politicians cutting funding to schools and such first, no? Taking settlements from “their own” money (such as pensions) is one of the better solutions I’ve heard.

IamSparticles , 2 hours ago

If we ever get a progressive president maybe we’ll actually fix it.

What do you think a progressive president can/will do to fix this? Biden used every available power of the office to try to push for police reform: whitehouse.gov/…/fact-sheet-the-biden-harris-admi…

Real change has to come from congress or state governments. The president has very limited powers here. Mostly they can only impose rules on federal officers, not local police.

givesomefucks , 2 hours ago

Maybe you blocked the other person that asked me, but here’s what I told them:

FDR got a lot of shit done.

Even tho he wanted more and the two parties unified against him.

An actually progressive president can guilt their party into progress, because he’ll go to their voters and flat out say the Dems they voted for is holding the whole country back, so next primary he’s supporting a challenger.

Strangely enough, just the threat of that is often enough.

Hell, Bernie is just a senator but that didn’t stop him from going to WV and telling voters that about Manchin.

And Manchin started supporting the party more.

Worked a hell of a lot better than Bidens strategy of publicly admitting he would even try to change someone’s mind.

MagicShel , 7 hours ago

Maybe such classes can be added to the prison curriculum?

nondescripthandle , 7 hours ago

If they didn’t let just any idiot become a cop Sonya would be alive right now but instead we have iq limits on cops because uncle sam needs his cops nice a dumb.

octopus_ink , 6 hours ago (edited 6 hours ago)

So in other words, there was every reason to realize that this guy shouldn’t have access to a gun and a badge, but neither his coworkers nor his supervisors did anything about it.

AND THAT is why people say ACAB, because the other police who allowed this man to remain an officer are 100% complicit in this outcome.

Why do we have to wait until they fucking execute someone to do something about it?

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/d1fc4f83-f62f-4d31-8a6e-464b396c322e.jpeg

Edit: And the bootlicker who downvoted without even the courage to disagree openly can go eat a bag of dicks.

mozz , 6 hours ago

Well, you better remove as much funding as possible from every police agency, and make sure that being a cop is as unpopular a career as possible, while still saying that having a police force is a vital part of our societal structure and so they have to find someone to hire.

Surely those efforts will help to solve this very genuine problem.

reagansrottencorpse , 6 hours ago

Cops make themselves unpopular, and they already get more than their share of communities funds.

Confused_Emus , 6 hours ago

Or we could start by getting rid of that fucking police fraternity and raising our quality standards for who gets hired as an officer.

mozz , 5 hours ago (edited 5 hours ago)

Sounds like a great idea on both counts. And actually I would add to that, create a nationwide registry of complaints against officers. There was an initial start at that in some of Biden’s police reforms, although it’s still sort of partial. Aviation dealt with this a while back, and it caused some fatal accidents until they fixed it; the system is flawed if you’re depending on the job candidate to volunteer to you the information that they were fired from some other location for incompetence. You need to have an external system in place that tracks it nationwide.

For some reason, the solution to this (again, very genuine) problem “bad cops tend to get fired and travel to some other agency” is not “let’s fix the holes that make that pattern possible” but “See? Police agencies always protect bad cops! Let’s starve them for money and make them desperate for more people!”

octopus_ink , 5 hours ago

For some reason, the solution to this (again, very genuine) problem “bad cops tend to get fired and travel to some other agency” is not “let’s fix the holes that make that pattern possible” but “See? Police agencies always protect bad cops! Let’s starve them for money and make them desperate for more people!

We had decades of uncritical support of police from most of the population until cameras started showing up everywhere to let us see what we were supporting. It turns out those decades of mostly uncritical support does not seem to have resulted in the sorts of police we want. So maybe try being upset about the shitty police instead of being upset about people being upset about the shitty police.

FlyingSquid , 5 hours ago

I wish we didn’t live in a binary world where there weren’t only two possible things that can be done about every issue, both quite extreme.

nomous , 3 hours ago

No! We ended up in this timeline, pick a side!

mozz , 3 hours ago

Yeah. There are quite a few people in the real world who actually are pursuing the sensible course - like places that are replacing cops for every call with mental health professionals, but backed up by police when violence is a clear possibility, and everyone working together. Supposedly that works great. Bodycams are another good example; almost every police agency loves them and the handful that resisted them (e.g. Portland and various police unions) represent a HUGE red flag about that agency.

I do think that both on the internet and real world the two extremes of “stop criticizing the cops cops are always right” and “fuck the police all the time cops are always the enemy” are the majority of the discourse, though. 😢

FlyingSquid , 3 hours ago

You’re literally contributing to that discourse.

mozz , 3 hours ago

Am I? I am pretty sure I explicitly advocated for a few different things that were neither of the binary alternatives, and pointed out specific problems that could be caused by the “other side” approaches, without simply saying it had to be the opposite binary.

Was that not what I did / not how it came across?

octopus_ink , 5 hours ago

help to solve this very genuine problem.

I’m so glad you asked, even though you didn’t.

Here are some examples of what defunding actually means.

themarshallproject.org/…/police-mental-health-alt…

mozz , 3 hours ago

Yeah. All of this (aside from that one thing of taking legal action against the city) sounds pretty good.

How does this relate to the woman who specifically called for the police to deal with a situation that needed police attention, and me advocating for diagnosing and fixing some of the problems that led to a person who should never have been a cop in the first place getting sent to that call?

octopus_ink , 2 hours ago

My response was specifically to respond to this common sideswipe against the defund movement.

Well, you better remove as much funding as possible from every police agency, and make sure that being a cop is as unpopular a career as possible, while still saying that having a police force is a vital part of our societal structure and so they have to find someone to hire.

In any case:

me advocating for diagnosing and fixing some of the problems that led to a person who should never have been a cop in the first place getting sent to that call

You seem to be advocating rewarding police for their unacceptable behavior, if I’m correctly understanding your layer of sarcasm from the first quoted bit. If I had even a molecule of faith remaining that police would use such additional funding to solve any of these issues, that would be great. But I don’t. They have destroyed my faith that they would take any such proactive measures and I expect they’ll just spend more money on different ways to harm or kill people and some more killology training, where they can be reminded that sex after killing someone will be the best sex they ever had.

So in the meantime, I’d like to see some accountability for those who hire these awful people and ignore their issues until they murder the people they are paid to help. Because currently it feels like they have little incentive to do things differently. Taxpayers pay police, police harm and kill people, then taxpayers pay the settlements for them. It’s going to take some convincing for me to believe that if we give them even more money they are going to use it in a responsible way.

To me this is like the folks who advocate more guns in schools for the problem of shootings at schools.

nomous , 3 hours ago

It’s true the messaging was terrible, it should’ve been “lets reallocate law enforcement funds to mental healthcare, crisis intervention workers, and job programs!” or something but that doesn’t roll off the tongue and lets be honest would’ve just been decried as socialism and a “government handout” anyway.

edit: I guess the messaging served it’s purpose, bringing the issue to the forefront, we’re still talking about it now.

mozz , 3 hours ago

Yeah. Personally I suspect that “defund the police” was explicit advocacy for exactly the type of vindictive make-everything-worse solution that it sounds like, and then got retconned afterwards into something much more sensible once (some) people realized how bad the initial idea was as a civic policy.

May I suggest “fix the system” as an alternate solution? It encompasses both the idea of productively addressing the systemic problem in policing, and moving on from there to wider issues in the criminal justice system that at this point I think are actually much bigger unaddressed problems than anything going on on a large scale with frontline police.

Nutteman , 2 hours ago

There’s no fixing the system it must be destroyed and replaced.

mozz , 2 hours ago

Do you wanna get together with a bunch of like minded people, find a city somewhere where you can vote in new leadership and destroy the police department, and see how it works out?

The hippies tried their version of that back in the 1960s with Vermont, and it turned Vermont into a substantially more pleasant place. Some people tried it in Aspen (read Hunter Thompson's proposals for how he wanted to reform the police department and what the voters did and how it played out; it is fascinating reading.) The libertarians tried it somewhere in New England and somewhere in the Southwest, more recently, and their philosophies in practice were an utter failure.

I am asserting that your solutions will not work in the real world. If you want to prove me wrong, you are empowered to organize and find a place and make it happen and run the experiment. People are actually doing this with non-destroying options like sending mental health professionals on mental health calls, and it's working well, so sure give your thing a shot.

funkless_eck , 1 hour ago

isn’t your first paragraph what the country was literally founded to do, should we be surprised then, when, people want to do that?

mozz , 1 hour ago (edited 52 minutes ago)

I wasn't trying to express surprise or sarcasm. Whether or not I personally think it's a good idea, I was fully unironically saying that taking over a city and doing it the way that you think makes sense, if the current system of policing isn't making sense to you, is a good idea.

Honestly, whether or not it works, we need more of that. The whole idea that "they" run the cities and "we" are at the mercy of what "they" have decided to do is not completely true, but it's also not completely false. If a bunch of ACAB people took over a city, destroyed the police department, suddenly realized that it's a bad idea to have no one to respond / only non violent people to respond if some violent crime happens, and then started working on "okay well then what do we want it to look like, avoiding the problems we experienced in the past with the way the police were organized", that would be a pretty fantastic thing. Again whether or not I was on board with how they thought about it before or after going into it. And, non-caricature versions of that (e.g. sending community response teams instead of police for non-criminal matters) has been a reform that's been happening, and it's been working. It's a good thing.

(Actually the citation the one person sent me to the Marshall project went into a decent amount of detail about what we do actually want it to look like. It pointed out that a lot of the fundamental problems are problems of social services, social framework, underlying root causes, and then beyond that, funding for 911 centers and non-police emergency response, and only beyond that does it even become an issue anything that the police do whether right or wrong. Like I said I actually liked that citation and what it had to say. I was only disagreeing with the idea of applying it as justification for the idea of "and that's why the police are BAD!" as a conclusion and as the sum total of what we need to do to fix the system, apparently.)

But anyway, we need more self government in civic society, including policing. Because, yes, that is what the country was literally founded to do, and it's not really fully the system right now.

OopsAllTwix , 6 hours ago

I didn’t downvote.

octopus_ink , 5 hours ago

I don’t think I said you did.

Apytele , 4 hours ago (edited 2 hours ago)

It’s also important to recognize the relevance of class warfare here. Many many many organizations responsible for human safety often cut back on staff and hours so much that you’ll take a piece of shit watching your back because if they get fired your boss is gonna take those savings as a win and not hire anyone else and then no one will be watching your back so you just tolerate the piece of shit until they finally do something you can’t conscience anymore (which is waaay too late) or until they also become a danger to you, and the fact that they’re making individuals make that call on reporting the person responsible for their safety is a huge problem that needs to be addressed if we’re going to make any headway.

I don’t wanna talk about it in detail but I was put in a similar situation at the age of like 19 when I didn’t know any better and was constantly dragging another technician away from patients or even having to put my physical body between them but if I had reported them I would’ve been completely alone with the literally criminally insane men on my unit. I thank my stars every day they got fired on a regulatory technicality instead of actual patient harm because at the age of 19 with a highschool diploma and two weeks technician training I had no idea where to even start (and its also hard to get your head on straight when you’ve got that much adrenaline and cortisol in you for months on end). Oh and yeah, no, they didn’t hire anyone else and thank God I felt shit heating up and left because the day I did they had to put down a literal riot because of the conditions they were leaving these people in. If it weren’t for the patient care / working conditions (they’re the same thing but I’ll get to that) I probably never would have left that patient population; while they certainly weren’t cute harmless little kittens, those criminally insane men were some of the realest people I ever met and I learned so much from them and they’re almost entirely responsible for my WASP fundie deprogramming but I digress.

There’s also an element of if you report and nothing happens, or even if something does happen, you can get “frozen out” and no one in the entire organization will watch your back or some people will even push you into dangerous situations to get rid of you by getting you to quit or …worse. I saw so many people become persona non grata and while I fortunately had a strong reputation as a hard worker looking out for everyone’s safety, I still got dirty looks for even helping frozen-out coworkers with housekeeping tasks like wiping down the dayroom tables. I’ve got uniquely good instincts for navigating violent situations in ways that turn out ok for everyone involved (perks of getting beat as a kid), but 90% of people don’t have the skillset to balance on that tightrope and wind up having to make a choice between going along with shit or getting frozen out (even I was lucky to make it as long as I did snatching that idiot off my patients). So you’d have to have it be a tolerable and high paid enough position even with high standards that you can afford to just replace entire departments quickly. Defunding won’t do that, so the real answer is just making sure the funds they do have go more to regulatory oversight, but especially the most to the lowest rung people who do the most hands-on work.

I have thoughts about how they should have to be licensed and have oversight boards and a couple other things similar to Healthcare, but there’s a lot of problems in all sectors that just aren’t going to get solved until we address the fact that no one wants to pay for direct human services labor of any kind anymore. Hands-on blue collar work has been just so fundamentally devalued at the actual monetary level that even people who WANT to do it and do a good, honest job that serves other humans can’t even afford to sometimes, both monetarily and in costs to their physical wellbeing. So there’s nothing left that’s desirable about these positions except having power over others, and no shit that’s going to attract the worst of humanity.

Gun control is also critical and the lack of it is the #1 reason I don’t work in community mental health services despite specifically specializing in violent and malignantly manipulative behavior. I’d 100% be an amazing violent conflict deescalator (I’ve only been doing it almost a decade now) but the risk of getting shot is just not worth it. And I can tell you that’s also on the cops minds because I’ve chatted with them while sorting out emergency psych hold paperwork. I think even without that shitty “warrior cop” training they’re exposing them to, the question “what if they have a gun” is going to be at the forefront of their minds. Until that’s a lot less likely and / or they’re much more likely to know ahead of time, they’re going to want to shoot first before the other guy has even a hypothetical chance.

“Defund the police” is a great catchy tagline that just sounds like nonsense to the people actually doing this work or who are adjacent to it, so no wonder it’s not going anywhere. Fuck I keep adding shit but this is a topic I’m really passionate about (like I said, I loved my forensic patients so much and they deserve so much more). There’s a saying in L&D that baby isn’t safe if mom (/ the primary caregiver) isn’t safe but it really applies to pretty much any person responsible for another human beings’ safety. No human can ever fully devote themselves to another’s safety if they aren’t already reasonably sure of their own.

Honestly my fiance just listened to my rant and came up with a much better tagline: “make the cops realize they’re poor too” because blue-collar class solidarity is the only real way out of this mess (but even that’s not really as catchy). On a similar note there are also a bunch of people with like 0.5-1mil in assets not even in the bank who think they’re the rich we’re talking about taxing who need to realize they’re just upper middle class / a little safer than us, not actually rich in the “no life consequences ever” way that no one should ever be, and that taxing billionaires actually benefits them too (like my idiot parents I don’t talk to anymore). Anyway I need to log off before I write a damn book (I can’t, I keep coming back. Again, passion, LOL).

octopus_ink , 2 hours ago (edited 2 hours ago)

Hey I just wanted to say thanks for the lengthy and detailed response, and I don’t mean to seem I’m reducing it just to your final paragraph, but articles like these (which I see with reasonable regularity) lead me to believe that the real world applications of the defund movement do tend to be supported by those who are actually doing the work or are adjacent to it.

themarshallproject.org/…/police-mental-health-alt…

As someone else has already pointed out, in this specific circumstance it seems likely to me they would have sent police anyhow, which is why I think the other important step is to start letting the folks who hire and retain these clearly problematic officers feel some of the heat - whether financially or through civil suit (thanks QI), or other means.

What I do not support is giving more funding to any department without some ironclad limitations on how they can use it and actual consequences for failing to use it in that way. I have lost all faith that any such increase in funds will be used appropriately though, or that any related agreement will actually be enforceable enough to have the desired effect.

As I mentioned elsewhere, we had decades of uncritical support of police from most of the population until cameras started showing up everywhere to let us see what we were supporting. It turns out those decades of mostly uncritical support do not seem to have resulted in the sorts of police we want, so I’m skeptical that any such conditions will be obeyed or enforced.

Apytele , 2 hours ago

the defund movement do tend to be supported by those who are actually doing the work or are adjacent to it.

You say that, but what I’ve realistically observed is people with little enough insight into the actual issue that they wind up perpetrating a lot of functional hypocrisy / double-think. Most of of the people working these positions in my area are black because that’s just the demographics of the area, so they’ll see these videos of cops killing black people and SAY ACAB or defund the police, but in the same shift I’ll watch them turn around and say some of the exact same shit to patients that these cops said to that poor schizophrenic lady (“don’t you dare or I’ll ___” or something similar but in this case the blank is fortunately something non-fatal like forced medication or restraints).

Most people lack the insight to realize that their thought patterns are the same as the people doing these things, because they think THEY had a good reason to say it because it made sense to them in the context of what was happening to them personally and the patient was ok in the end. When all they see is the video they don’t see the other frustrating or situationally intimidating things this person did before their death (and it’s not that they deserved it, it’s that you have to control whole situations to stop this kind of thing, intervening in the last five minutes is faaar too late). That video was actually an excellent example of this; I even saw someone point out that they never should have let her hold the kettle in the first place; one of the officers should have recognized that she was in crisis and offered to get the kettle FOR her. She should never have been allowed the opportunity to pick up the improvised weapon in the first place because it should have been obvious to them that she could not control herself in that moment.

Few people just snap and kill somebody in under a few seconds, its the fact that they’re ever letting shit get that far in the first place is the actual core issue here. It’s incredibly easy to look at a single video and say “I would never” but part of my talent for handling these situations is understanding what causes a person to get to that point. I’m the person who notices my coworkers getting frustrated and taps them out because I’ve noticed that it’s always the martyrs who say “I would never” that fail to monitor and intervene with their own frustration levels and who don’t account for what a person not in control of themselves is actually capable of that wind up doing the most fucked up shit.

octopus_ink , 1 hour ago

I certainly can’t argue with your lived experience, but I hope you’ll appreciate that from my point of view it’s an anecdote, even though I don’t doubt your sincerity, nor the accuracy of your statement.

Few people just snap and kill somebody in under a few seconds, its the fact that they’re ever letting shit get that far in the first place is the actual core issue here. It’s incredibly easy to look at a single video and say “I would never” but part of my talent for handling these situations is understanding what causes a person to get to that point. I’m the person who notices my coworkers getting frustrated and taps them out because I’ve noticed that it’s always the martyrs who say “I would never” that fail to monitor and intervene with their own frustration levels that wind up doing the most fucked up shit.

I agree with all of this, but combined with the information in the OP, what we can do, rather than blame that cop for their own mental health struggles (although I do blame a person with those kinds of anger control issues for choosing a career where they need to decide whether to kill people or not), I think there must be, should be, and should always have been actual consequences not only for the cop who pulled the trigger, but for the folks who hired and retained him.

And if the answer is “for this reason or that they didn’t have knowledge of all those details” - then THAT problem can be the first one that supposed well meaning police solve if they want to start building some faith that they actually want to solve these problems as badly as us potential targets do.

they’ll see these videos of cops killing black people and SAY ACAB or defund the police,

The post you originally replied to is the closest I’ve ever come to actually saying it, but although I usually refuse to even get that close, I will distill down a somewhat famous Chris Rock skit to only its punchline. I may not walk around saying ACAB, but I understand.

Apytele , 1 hour ago (edited 44 minutes ago)

A big part of them having their own mental health struggles is that it’s also some of the most unhinged people that can make some of the best conflict deescalators because we’ve been there. A big part of the reason I’m so good at this is because I know what I’ve done and what I’m capable of and I know what my stupid ass should’ve been told when I was doing dumb shit. I’ve actually wound up in restraints being forced medication after getting my ass beat by the cops for being a mentally ill little shit. A LOT of people start out thinking they’re going to be the person that makes the change they needed way back when.

The difference is I’ve had 3 years of literally the most intense psychological therapy that exists and I was going to that therapy while I was working with some of the most acutely ill psychiatric patients that exist so I was actively processing and growing from my own childhood and history while I was also learning to manage these patients, so those same therapists got the chance to simultaneously help me process the experiences I was actively having AND contextualize my innate responses to that exact environment.

It’s a situation that’s almost impossible to replicate without the kind of financial resources that the people running this country don’t want to dedicate to this end, and not just because they’re stingy but because they’re actively benefiting from convincing us to brutalize each other instead of picking our heads up and realizing what’s happening and going after them instead. It really does all come down to class warfare in the end (BTW Dialectal Behavior Therapy also includes a STRONG element of controlling your own mental energy so you can channel it to combat systemic injustices as effectively as possible).

Also, you have to be unhinged to walk up to a convicted violent felon with psychosis who thinks you’re trying to hurt them and think you’re just going to talk them into not going for your throat. Sane people run.

billwashere , 1 hour ago

What’s worse is they hired him in the first place.

snooggums , 6 hours ago

Sounds like a candidate for life in prison.

Confused_Emus , 6 hours ago

He’ll get a promotion by the time his police frat bros are done fucking the system.

eestileib , 4 hours ago

In the same sense that Dennis Kucinich was a candidate for president, yes.

HeyJoe , 5 hours ago

The video is awful… 1000 other outcomes could have existed here that didn’t involve killing her for no reason. One of the articles attached to the link explains each bad decision made and even how he showed zero lack of remorse. It’s insane that they would tell her to take care of the pot of boiling water only to then use that as the excuse to consider her a threat when they could have easily done this themselves if they were so worried. They also could have just backed away if it was really so concerning to them as well. They also shot her in the head? If you have to shoot someone, is there even an attempt at all anymore to just shoot them in non vital areas so they can be apprehended, or is the outcome supposed to be shoot to kill? Aiming for the head doesn’t sound right for almost all situations.

ImplyingImplications , 3 hours ago

He had to approach her to shoot her. Sonya ducked behind a counter when the officer pulled his gun on her and said “I will fucking shoot you in your fucking face”. Why would someone approach a threat? He didn’t see her as a threat, he saw an excuse to kill her.

is there even an attempt at all anymore to just shoot them in non vital areas so they can be apprehended, or is the outcome supposed to be shoot to kill?

It’s always shoot to kill, as it should be. A gun is a lethal weapon. It’s only use is to kill. Police have less-than-lethal tools if their intent isn’t to kill.

chemicalprophet , 17 minutes ago

So, not quite human…