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It wasn't just the goblins — is J.K. Rowling doing Holocaust denial now?

The most famous forms of Holocaust denial and revisionism tend to focus on Jews, casting doubt, for example, on how many were exterminated in the camps. But denying the impact the Nazis had on the other groups they targeted, including queer and trans people, disabled people and Romani people, is still Holocaust denial. Maybe someone should tell J.K. Rowling.

deweydecibel ,

The type of Holocaust denial they’re suggesting she’s doing wouldn’t make her antisemitic, because she’s not denying its impact on the Jewish people. It just makes her more transphobic, which we already knew.

Landslide7648 ,

I am pretty sure that’s not the right definition. Holocaust denial isn’t about denying the impact of the holocaust had on the victims and the survivors. It’s about denying the scale and planned nature of the genocide.

JK Rowling doesn’t deny the holocaust. She’s not even denying that trans people were targeted, she is denying that they were among the first victims of the nazis. And while denying that they were targeted is wrong, it’s not denying the holocaust happened.

Sodis ,

No, she moved the goalpost to “they were not the first”, her original statement was completely different.

Landslide7648 ,

What was it? I’ve only seen the screenshots shared by the other person, it was them who put the focus on it imho. Either way I haven’t seen any other statement, care to share that?

Sodis ,

twitter.com/jk_rowling/…/1767912990366388735
I don’t have a Twitter account anymore, so I can’t look for the whole thread. The “not the first” tweet is an answer to someone replying to this tweet here.
Edit: found it:

https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/9dd07d28-8b89-42e6-9835-7e5bc8d25bad.png

Landslide7648 ,

Yeah it’s because the Alejandra person actually claimed those things.

As critical as I’m of JK Rowlings trans denial, this appears to be blown way out of proportion by people who want to pin another label on her that will make their fight more righteous.

This is nothing but culture war

Sodis ,

Where?
Some person: Nazis burned books on transgenders
Rowling: That’s a lie. Alejandra: Here sources proving, that nazis did indeed burn books, including a German court ruling that explicitly stated, that nazis moved against transgenders too and the denial of that is Holocaust denial.
Rowling: But they were not the first victims and they didn’t burn all books.

Like, her whole argument is completely off. She is the only one, that ever mentioned “all books” and “first victims”.

Landslide7648 ,

She isn’t the one that first spoke of “all”, she’s referring to this message. https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/b592b6f6-734c-4a4e-af8f-e01f1616b5cc.png

Anyway, I don’t think this entire argument is done in good faith nor by Alejandra nor JK Rowling.

Sodis ,

That’s a different thread though. Alejandra might not have been aware of it, like I was.

Landslide7648 ,

Good point. I didn’t realise that it was a different thread under the same post.

But regardless this doesn’t make Alejandra look like she’s acting in good faith. Her accusation of holocaust denial is a reaction to this post

https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/f09adae7-5972-4128-9d18-0798a1120755.png

I don’t read that as “JKR demands a source for persecution of transgender by the nazis” and more as a “JKR demands a source for her upholding gender ideology of the nazis”.

At the very least Alejandra could have asked for clarification before throwing “holocaust denier” in the ring.

But I also admit that I don’t actually follow this very closely, so it’s possible I’m wrong and JKR meant to state there was no persecution of transgender.

Again, a follow up question would have clarified that. But both sides, her, her supporters and the people who attack her are so deep down that cycle of outrage that they are not really interested in understanding where the other person is coming from. They just want to be right.

In my opinion it’s a pointless discussion.

BestBouclettes ,

There are multiple faces to Holocaust denial, and this one, is denying the scale of it by excluding a group that has knowingly been targeted by Nazis. They had to wear the pink triangle too.

Landslide7648 ,

I understand that you believe that, it’s just as far as I know not the definition

Duamerthrax ,

It’s about denying the scale and planned nature of the genocide.

That’s just an angle that anti-semites use to discredit the Holocaust historians. Does it matter that it was 6 million? Could have been 1 million for all I care, but people who already don’t like Jews will get pedantic about the EXACT number before explaining that number is wrong because (((they))) control the media and none of it happened. It’s a dog whistle.

Landslide7648 ,

Not according to Wikipedia. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Holocaust denial is an antisemitic conspiracy theory[1][2] that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a fabrication or exaggeration.[3][4][5] Holocaust denial involves making one or more of the following false claims:[6][7][8]

Nazi Germany’s “Final Solution” was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination. Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews. The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately six million. The Holocaust is a hoax perpetrated by the Allies, Jews, or the Soviet Union.[4][9]

Duamerthrax ,

It’s Wiki. It’s not terribly useful for controversial topics. Why don’t you call the Holocaust Museum tomorrow and ask them.

Landslide7648 ,

lol

Landslide7648 ,

I had a look at the homepage of the holocaust museum. They differentiate between soft and hard holocaust denial, i.e. the genocide of the Jews wasn’t planned and didn’t happen at this scale, and the the genocide of the Jews didn’t happen, respectively.

That is, by the way, in line with Wikipedia states. I don’t expect you to actually walk away and learn something of course, but on the off chance that you’ll reflect on this I’d say: start opening your mind to the possibility that you are wrong.

moitoi ,

She is transphobic, ableist, handiphobic, etc.

The saddest is that we will always find a fan boy taking her defense. Seriously, stop! She is garbage.

Lath ,

Hello there, fellow internet person! Harry Potter fan boy here. I just sort of did. Doubt I'll stop any time soon. And while she might be, I don't know her well enough to confirm your opinion on her.

Leviathan ,

You know what they say about people who sit at tables with Nazis without protest.

Lath ,

I actually don't. Is it something specific to Nazism or to authoritarian governments in general?

fustigation769curtain ,

You should be careful lying about who is a Nazi.

The more you do it, the less power that word has.

Similar to antisemetic.

Leviathan ,

You should be careful lying about who isn’t a Nazi.

The more you do it, the less power that word has.

Similar to antisemetic.

fustigation769curtain ,

Yeah. This is why rational people don’t take you seriously.

You’re addicted to arguing in bad faith because you get so much support for it on these forums.

You need to step out into the real world to get some real perspectives.

Leviathan ,

Ditto.

Sidyctism ,

Err umm sooo rAtIoNaL

scorpious ,

addicted to arguing in bad faith because you get so much support for it on these forums.

Fucking BINGO.

In these types of posts, Lemmy reads exactly like a Fox News comment thread.

What a drag. The “Lookit me I am 14 and a totes badass” cult infesting Lemmy has just about killed it for me. I just hope things change and more adults show up.

fustigation769curtain ,

Yeah it’s pretty lame, but I’m fighting back any way I can.

fustigation769curtain ,

Stand up for what you believe in.

Don’t let these people put you in the closet.

Lath ,

The thing about Lemmy is that it's like jumping from closet to closet, with everyone thinking they're the ones outside. And I don't feel like the exception.
It's an active process to take a moment and consider that maybe the walls we surround ourselves with aren't really that healthy.

djsoren19 ,

No, people who support bigots should go into a closet.

fustigation769curtain ,

And let me guess, a “bigot” is someone who doesn’t see you the way you want to be seen?

ElderWendigo ,

If being transphobic and racist isn’t enough, read more. In particular, after reading Earthsea series by Ursula K. LeGuin, it’s clear that the main ideas of the Harry Potter series (an elite wizarding school and a wreckless magic student meddling in death and how that threatens the whole world) is not Rowling’s own original idea. I’m sorry for putting down an author you like if it means you won’t give LeGuin a try, because I really do think you will like her stuff.

Lath ,

I have no doubt that Rowling's story isn't original. There are many authors better than her, yet less popular. The Harry Potter story is a love-hate thing for most of its fans and its success is a matter opportunity i'd guess.
But it is part of childhood for many and that alone makes it important enough to keep the better parts of it close to heart.

I'll probably get to read Earthsea eventually, I just need to find the time to invest in it properly.

ElderWendigo ,

Given the enthusiasm with which you’ve been spreading your own bigotry and lies around the rest of this thread, I don’t believe you and I regret responding to your comment. I don’t think you’ll appreciate LeGuin. I’d rather you stay a vocal Rowling fan, you seem to be very representative of that willfully ignorant and hateful lot.

Lath ,

So bigotry and lies is now "don't focus on hatred"? Ok.

The following text is hyperbole to make a point and should be treated as such.

...

Let's say you're right. Let's hate on Rowling. Let's burn her books. Let's take her wealth and property. Let's send her to a special place for bigots, separate from the proper society. Let's do the same for the rest like her. I mean, who needs bigots in this society? They're poison. We'll be doing the world a favour...

The Nazis grew in power with a similar message about a certain kind of people. But yes, it's not Nazism. It's not the same. You're not really letting your hatred fester until it's all that is left. You can stop before that. You CAN stop. Because you're different. You're special. You're how the world should be. And anyone who thinks differently is beneath you.

...

Why are we here? Why is this topic important? Why is Lemmy important? Some people say it's a safe space, for those who believe the same things can agree with and encourage each other.
That's good and well for nice and positive ideas of growth and cooperation.
But when you start echoing anger, disgust, hatred and all other kinds of negative emotions, they get reinforced just as well as the positive side of things.

Look at this topic. Hate on Rowling. Hate on bigots. Hate on everything bad. And look at the number of up votes.

Is this really the type of safe space and reinforcement you want? If so, then I'm sorry, but that hyperbole above is the unavoidable path all those before you have fallen into.

Balance in all things is the path I try to walk, the good and the bad. Though I fail and stumble once in a while, I try to remember that no one is inherently good or bad. We simply are, each with faults of our own.

What path do you walk?

Pan_Ziemniak ,

See Le Guin --> upvote,

Simple as

admin , (edited )

Harry Potter and tales of the gas chamber.

she was already a transphobe, So she is pandering anti-trans bullshit, that’s different from holocaust denial and even if it is, she just evolved from transphobe to holocaust denier.

Killing_Spark , (edited )

Trans, gay, Romani, Black people all got deported to concentration camps as well as jews. The death machinery worked against a lot of people, even if it was designed to exterminate jews.

They even had a badgesystem to visually identify for what “crime” someone was in the camp.

…wikipedia.org/…/Identification_of_inmates_in_Naz…

Edit: As well as other groups of people, a complete lists is basically impossible. Communists where early victims, but disabled people where also brought to the camps and killed for the “Volksgesundheit”.

mods_are_assholes ,

You can’t become more right just by being angry

Your summarized argument is thus:

It’ can’t be Holocaust denial because I’m only denying PART of the Holocaust

Correct?

If so, then you are wrong. Sorry.

I don’t make the rules but you really should follow them.

admin ,

Your summarized argument is thus:

It’ can’t be Holocaust denial because I’m only denying PART of the Holocaust

Correct?

No, My argument is one is history illiterate asshole while the other is special-grade asshole, and putting both under the same blanket gives the latter one more power,

Just like there are stupid people who think the moon landing is fake and then there are anti-vaxxers, one is just stupid while the latter is much more destructive and potentially harmful to society.

there are overlaps between them and they can be totally categorized as one but we need separation to neutralize the potential damage they can cause.

mods_are_assholes ,

This goal post shift is so long reached, you probably needed to get a city permit to move it.

Leviathan ,

one is history illiterate asshole while the other is special-grade asshole

I contend that they are the same type of asshole with the same goal but they present their arguments in a way that makes a portion of the populace jump ever so slightly onto their side. If they can get people to agree that one portion of the Holocaust was more tragic than another then they have already begun to chip away at what made the Holocaust so horrendous. Holocaust denial isn’t about not thinking it happened, it’s about pretending they think it didn’t happen to devillainize their side. Just because they picked one group affected by the Holocaust over another doesn’t make it any less Holocaust denial, it just makes it Holocaust denial that doesn’t bother you, meaning they won.


<span style="color:#323232;">First they came for the Communists
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And I did not speak out
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Because I was not a Communist
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Then they came for the Socialists
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And I did not speak out
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Because I was not a Socialist
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Then they came for the trade unionists
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And I did not speak out
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Because I was not a trade unionist
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Then they came for the Jews
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And I did not speak out
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Because I was not a Jew
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Then they came for me
</span><span style="color:#323232;">And there was no one left
</span><span style="color:#323232;">To speak out for me
</span>

Classic nazi tactic to come for groups you don’t care about so they can eventually come for you.

rambaroo ,

Fuck off with your bullshit. The Nazis DID deliberately target sexual minorities and other groups, in fact sexual minorities were the first people they went after. Destroying LGBT people was absolutely part of their eugenics philosophy.

This is Holocaust denial. Fucking Nazi-defending homophobe.

admin , (edited )

Fucking Nazi-defending homophobe.

hitler and Nazi-defending are like a prefix of disagreement, but a homophobe, where does that come from, that is too specific cause If you think I am defending J.K then doesn’t transphobe makes more sense or if you go by the logic that I hate queer people shouldn’t it be anti-queer or queerphobe?

CptEnder ,

Lmao this is the guy who’s like “hey Nazis suck but…”

Then 2 years later you see him sig hailing on some Facebook pic and like “yupppp”

What a tool.

rambaroo ,

Hey buddy, that sounds like projection. Just because you’re already cool with Nazis and fascists as long as they vote Democrat doesn’t mean the rest of us are.

If you lived in 1930s Germany you’d be the loser telling us to vote for Hindenburg to “stop the Nazis”, right before he made Hitler chancellor.

It’s always centrists who end up saluting a dictator. Cowards. Go fuck yourself, Nazi lover

rambaroo ,

Youb blatantly minimized that the Nazis targeted LBTQ people in the Holocaust. That’s 100% homophobia. But apparently we aren’t allowed to call that out here.

fustigation769curtain ,

I agree, but the tribe has made up its mind.

You’re either with them, or against them. There is no in-between.

Killing_Spark ,

Yeah I hate it when the tribe calls out my factually wrong opinions.

fustigation769curtain ,

How can an opinion be “factually wrong?”

Lol.

There you go doing it again. Pretending that anyone who goes against the tribe is immediately, factually wrong.

Thanks for proving my point.

Killing_Spark ,

They are not factually wrong becuase their opinion does not match the popular opinion. They are factually wrong because their opinion does not align with the fact that the holocaust was not only about exterminating jews.

How can an opinion be “factually wrong?”

If I formed the opinion that the third Reich did not want to exterminate disabled people as part of the holocaust that would be factually wrong. That’s how facts and opinions work.

fustigation769curtain ,

You don’t know what the word “opinion” means. I highly recommend brushing up on your vocabulary.

Killing_Spark ,

Let’s quote the oxford dictionary then:

opinion (noun) your feelings or thoughts about somebody/something, rather than a fact

In this context the opinion is the thought that the holocaust was only about exterminating jews. This thought does not align with the facts.

fustigation769curtain ,

Wow. You also need to brush up on your reading comprehension because you can’t even understand the words you’re reading!

Goodbye. I’m gonna block you now because you aren’t worth conversing with.

finishsneezing ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    fustigation769curtain ,

    I don’t really care what losers on the internet think.

    finishsneezing ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    fustigation769curtain ,

    🤡

    magnusrufus ,

    People have the opinion that the climate isn’t changing. People have the opinion that the world is flat. People have the opinion everyone with dark skin is sub human.

    Some people frame their terrible views as opinions so they can use the bad faith argument that it’s just a difference of opinions so everyone should just be ok with their hateful or ignorant stances. Some people frame their terrible views as opinions to try and avoid valid criticism of their opinions contradictions with reality.

    You are fervently engaging in a behavior exhibited by the hateful and ignorant and there is a pretty safe bet as to why.

    Ekybio ,
    @Ekybio@lemmy.world avatar

    She knows she is doing it and doesnt care.

    Like every conservative, they just want queer people dead, unless its their own children.

    JoBo , (edited )

    She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal (in the political science sense of the word, not the USian synonym for leftist).

    It’s not 100% clear where Rowling’s transphobia comes from. She certainly fits into the group of transphobic cis women who have been abused by cis men and concluded that all men are evil, including the ones that want to be women.

    But there’s also a dynamic which I think you can see with Graham Linehan and Dave Chappelle as well. Born into comfortable middle-class families, well-educated, never really thought about their bog-standard liberalism. Became extremely successful, became accustomed to near universal adoration, made a thoughtless transphobic comment/skit, received criticism and reacted with absolute fury at the idea they could possibly be prejudiced about anything. Because they’re liberals, you see.

    All three just keep digging that hole deeper rather than face up to the idea that maybe they got something wrong. Linehan’s career is over (as is his marriage), Dave Chappelle is hanging on by a thread and flirting with the right, and Rowling doesn’t give a shit because she’s a billionaire and does not have to give a shit about anything at all.

    jmcs ,

    She’s a blairist, and blairists are only slightly less morally bankrupt thatcherites.

    For all their sins, a true European style liberal wouldn’t want the state to tell you which restroom you use or what medical treatment they have access to - of course they also believe that trans people that were born into poor families don’t deserve access to any medical treatment at all but that’s another story.

    ABCDE ,

    Graham Linehan

    Wow, Linehan really dug in hard according to his Wiki.

    JoBo ,

    A really tragic trajectory. His work was genuinely great. And there isn’t going to be any more of it (unless his new fascist pals persuade him to do a Leni Riefenstahl for them).

    Rai ,

    HBomberGuy’s Donkey Kong 64 “Fuck You Graham” nightmare stream for trans rights was absolutely marvelous

    Jimmycrackcrack , (edited )

    I think the trans thing started as a sincerely held conviction very much a long the lines as you’re describing, and while this is and can only be utter speculation, I have a feeling a lot of what comes after as in Chappelle, probably with Linehan (but I don’t really know anything about his case) and also other examples like the vaccines cause autism guy, I think these people are seeing an opportunity in their ostracism to keeping their profiles high and business opportunities as well.

    I think it’s a sort of a ‘hung for a sheep as for a lamb’ kind of logic where you mightn’t really have had any particular common cause with a lot of conservative views, or fringe elements before, but their willingness to embrace and lionize you for this one particular stance creates a new audience and market for you just as others are shrinking. From there it makes sense to gradually dole out hints and allusions to more conservative talking points and just keep ratcheting it up piecemeal to keep that profile up. For this to work you have to eventually be less hinting and more direct and the positions have to be more extreme and on more and more diverse matters, even ones you probably never had any opinion on because this is a pathway to becoming a kind professional provocateur and shock jock.

    CosmoNova ,

    Her world views are absolutely conservative by today’s standard. Especially her views on gender roles. I mean have you read Harry Potter when you were younger? All important characters that actually shape the plot are male. She went out of her way to give Harry different father figures, believing that‘s what a boy needs when he grows up. But it‘s enough when his mother just loved him. Her female characters are far less layered than the male ones and more often than not reduced to mere tropes. The most prominent one being the pedantically strict auntie, a template which wich gets pasted a lot. There’s also the crazy auntie character and the tomboy. But that‘s pretty much it, really. Hermione herself ranges between overly strict and tomboy throughout the books and the only way she managed to escape this pattern is by… magic plastic surgery to shrink her front teeth. Rowling has clearly defined genders to be a black or white kind of thing for herself and she clearly outlined which gender has to fill what role.

    JoBo ,

    Totally agree with all of that. But I think the disagreement is based on what you think a liberal is. She is a New Labourite through and through.

    British transphobia is as prevalent amongst middle-class, white liberals (centrists) as it is on the right; I’d say that they started it here.

    Writers for The Guardian (US) wrote a letter protesting that bastion of liberalism’s transphobic stance: Why we take issue with the Guardian’s stance on trans rights in the UK.

    The political dividing line here is very, very different to that in the US.

    rottingleaf ,

    The reason traditional gender roles are called than and are that is because most people act in accordance with them.

    And I disagree that all female characters have less depth intentionally.

    These are still books about a boy, told from his point of view. Most of the depth is in his head.

    Burn_The_Right , (edited )

    She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal…

    You are mixing definitions.

    In fiscal policy, “conservatism” is opposite “liberalism”.

    In social policy, “conservatism” is opposite “progressivism”.

    No one here is accusing this homophobic bridge troll of having conservative fiscal policy.

    She is socially conservative. And as such, she is a bigot. There can be no defense of her from anyone who is not a bigot.

    JoBo ,

    No. We’re talking political categorisations, not the dictionary definition.

    Conservatives are socially conservative and economically liberal.

    Liberals are socially liberal and economically liberal.

    Liberals have never had a problem abandoning their high-minded ideals when there were savages to civilise. Because liberalism has no analysis of power, and an absolute belief in the fundamental impossibility that they could be wrong about anything.

    There’s no doubt that she is shifting to the right, because they are fawning over her and she has no politics. See also Linehan and Chappelle. They were all bog-standard liberals before being criticised.

    Burn_The_Right , (edited )

    Chappelle was only liberal where racism was concerned. Otherwise he has been squarely neo-liberal when pushed into any political discussion. I believe Rowling has also always been neo-liberal.

    Neo-liberals are conservatives. They toy with progressivism only when it benefits them. But, neo-liberals are otherwise conservatives with a bit more tact than typical conservatives.

    JoBo ,

    You’re not wrong, except in believing that classical liberalism was ever any different.

    Burn_The_Right ,

    I no longer confuse classical liberalism with progressivism. I was corrected on that topic a few years ago and learned my lesson.

    I hate that conservatives in the U.S. worked so hard to use these terms interchangably. They’ve gleefully created chaos with their misuse of words as pejoratives and it makes having adult conversations so much more complicated. Which I suppose was their goal all along.

    JoBo ,

    I believe that’s why “centrist” has become a popular substitute word, to sidestep the confusion.

    Burn_The_Right ,

    Don’t get me started on centrists. What a wonderfully convenient way for a conservative to hide their shame in social settings! Ten years ago, that word meant nothing to me. Now, it just means “embarrassed conservative” to me.

    hemko ,

    I assume you talk about centrist as in USA context? Because what you’re saying doesn’t make much sense to me as Northern European

    Burn_The_Right ,

    Ahh, yes. Here in the U.S., some conservatives have become ashamed to admit they are conservatives, especially after the Trump presidency. So now they call themselves centrists.

    They are still very conservative. They just don’t want to be equated with the most extreme of their party. They think being somewhere between neo-nazi and neo-liberal is called “centrist”.

    octopus_ink ,

    She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal (in the political science sense of the word, not the USian synonym for leftist).

    No leftist self-identifies as a liberal in the US.

    Liberal and leftist are synonyms to the US right such that everyone left of them is considered a “liberal”, and the term is usually used pejoratively.

    JoBo ,

    It’s usually used perjoratively by the left, tbf.

    In the established party-political sense, Liberal is now clear enough. But liberal as a term of political discourse is complex. It has been under regular and heavy attack from conservative positions, where the senses of lack of restraint and lack of discipline have been brought to bear, and also the sense of a (weak and sentimental) generosity. The sense of a lack of rigour has also been drawn on in intellectual disputes. Against this kind of attack, liberal has often been a group term for PROGRESSIVE or RADICAL (qq.v.) opinions, and is still clear in this sense, notably in USA. But liberal as a pejorative term has also been widely used by socialists and especially Marxists. This use shares the conservative sense of lack of rigour and of weak and sentimental beliefs. Thus far it is interpreted by liberals as a familiar complaint, and there is a special edge in their reply to socialists, that they are concerned with political freedom and that socialists are not. But this masks the most serious sense of the socialist use, which is the historically accurate observation that liberalism is a doctrine based on INDIVIDUALIST (q.v.) theories of man and society and is thus in fundamental conflict not only with SOCIALIST (q.v.) but with most strictly SOCIAL (q.v.) theories. The further observation, that liberalism is the highest form of thought developed within BOURGEOIS (q.v.) society and in terms of CAPITALISM (q.v.), is also relevant, for when liberal is not being used as a loose swear-word, it is to this mixture of liberating and limiting ideas that it is intended to refer. Liberalism is then a doctrine of certain necessary kinds of freedom but also, and essentially, a doctrine of possessive individualism.

    Keywords --Raymond Williams

    octopus_ink ,

    Good point that is also true and it’s the reason no leftist self-identifies as a liberal. However, my comment was in response to this statement:

    She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal (in the political science sense of the word, not the USian synonym for leftist).

    My point (which you are supporting) is that leftist and liberal are not synonyms in the US except to people in the US who apply the term liberal wrongly.

    fustigation769curtain ,

    Maybe she just has her own views and your tribalistic mind can’t comprehend that?

    I know what I’d put my money on.

    TheBat ,
    @TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

    And her views are fucking hateful and stupid.

    fustigation769curtain ,

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    turbowafflz ,

    Adults with empathy do their best to make the world better for the people around them instead of just telling everyone to deal with it.

    fustigation769curtain ,

    Children do what others tell them to even if they disagree with it.

    rottingleaf ,

    and Rowling doesn’t give a shit

    Basically when a virtue-signaling crowd wants you to confess your sins or something, not giving a shit is the right response. One can make it even better if in possession of a machine gun, of course.

    ickplant ,
    @ickplant@lemmy.world avatar

    Are you advocating for violence? I don’t understand your machine gun comment.

    rottingleaf ,

    Just for having the right tools if the crowd doesn’t stop with verbal demands

    ickplant ,
    @ickplant@lemmy.world avatar

    So you are advocating for shooting people who disagree with you. Got it. Thank you for showing the caliber of person you are.

    rottingleaf ,

    If when you disagree with someone, you

    doesn’t stop with verbal demands

    instead of just going of with your life, then you deserve to be shot. Correct.

    state_electrician ,

    For some feminists, especially older ones, the transphobia comes from the long fight against the patriarchy and the feeling that men are trying to encroach on everything they fought for by becoming women. I had that explained to me by multiple (three) feminists in the last few years.

    JoBo ,

    Yes, that’s the divide within ‘radical feminism’. The trans-exclusionary TERFs and the trans-inclusionary TIRFs. They both start with “gender is a social construct” but the TERFs have somehow got from there to biological essentialism. They’re a minority of a minority. But they tend to be middle-class so they make a lot of noise.

    afraid_of_zombies ,

    They sound like pleasant people to be around

    KrokanteBamischijf ,

    So you’re saying we should just turn the children of all conservatives queer? Alright, bring in the cat girls, 196 memes and let’s pounce!

    Joking aside, there’s two archetypes of conservative:

    • The Xenofobe, who is afraid of a changing world and that fear is strengthened by anything they experience as threatening to their image of how the world works. These people are more likely to warm to LGBTQIA+ people if they learn they’re not so different, and everyone is just trying to exist, be themselves and love who they love. There is no agenda for taking over the world.
    • The Cultist. These people are beyond saving and generally consist of the hardcore christofascist bible belt inbred morons that are generally dumb as fuck, but loud as hell. They are indoctrinated by their own bubble of conspiracy theorists to the point where they are firmly dug into their own story and nothing will change their views.

    It is not worth fighting either group with animosity, condemnation or attacks, as they are more than capable of spinning the story their side and reinforcing their ideas that queers are somehow threatening.

    But at least we should be capable of showing the xenofobes that there is no monster in that closet (pun intended), or under their beds.

    As for Rowling, she is likely part of the cultist group, which means we’re going to have issues. Her status as a celebrity and her wealth further isolates her from the rest of society, which is a real problem because that makes you able to opt out of confrontation with reality. She can just stategically isolate herself from ever coming into contact and having a real human interaction with the people she’s having all these misguided ideas about.

    I think everyone should be made more aware of the damage that social bubbles cause to society. Whether it’s conservative communities, religious indoctrination, closed internet discussion groups or just the wealthy and famous distancing themselves from society (which is usually not by choice but because we treat them to a permanent dose of spotlights).

    CaptainHowdy ,

    I wonder if you have read/heard the things Rowling has actually said about trans issues.

    I also find it ironic that you liken her to a chrisofachist, when in the early 00s she was basically crucified by those people.

    I certainly don’t agree with everything she has said. But some of her points are genuine “maybe this is something that deserves conversation and contemplating”, which are immediately construed as transphobic or hateful by many people who haven’t personally read/heard what she said. People jump to screaming online instead of trying to refute her points.

    Again, I do NOT agree with her on many, many things!

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