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Blackmist ,

Of course I know them. They’re me.

Krzd ,
@Krzd@lemmy.world avatar

I mean yeah, of course they’re free to associate with themselves‽

TigrisMorte ,

You can judge a person by the company they choose to keep.

Witchfire ,
@Witchfire@lemmy.world avatar

What about the company they actively invite and elope with?

Lemminary ,

elope with

Alright, I’m gonna be the one to say it: They fuck 'em, Jerry. They fuck 'em.

xc2215x ,

Not that surprising nowadays.

be_excellent_to_each_other ,
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

Personally I don't think banning associating with any group is a good thing. There lies neo-McCarthyism.

TigrisMorte ,

Not remotely the issue here. This isn't about banning, this is about not having or having nazi simps influencing a political party. Huge difference between, "can't be a part of our group if you associate", and, "associating with these People is verboten!"

Much like Folks that fly to Moscow on July 4th so they can bend knee to pootie should not be allowed in Congress. Nazis should not be involved in any Political Party which remains relevant. But here we are.

SocialMediaSettler ,

The crazy thing is a lot of people forget about that July 4th trip by Republicans to kiss Putin’s ass in Moscow. So much insane shit happened during Trump’s 4 years, it’s all so overwhelming. Plenty of traitors in that administration - well before Jan. 6th too.

be_excellent_to_each_other ,
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

Ah so Republicans have concern about traitors in their ranks now? Cool cool cool....

be_excellent_to_each_other ,
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

Personally I don't think banning associating with any group is a good thing. There lies neo-McCarthyism.

Not remotely the issue here. This isn't about banning, this is about not having or having nazi simps influencing a political party.

Really? Because the article spells out the problem in the second paragraph.

In a 32-29 vote, the party’s executive committee decided against excluding from their organization those “known to espouse or tolerate antisemitism, pro-Nazi sympathies or Holocaust denial”. A proposal to ban such individuals was included in a resolution supporting Israel as it wars with Hamas in Gaza.

Am I an antisemite because I think Israel is off the hook currently? Some people think so. Does it make me a Nazi, or as you say a "nazi simp"? I find that idea laughable, but maybe those same people think so. Maybe you do too. Or maybe someone in power a year from now will think so. I have no desire to participate in the Texas Republican party, nor any Republican party, but 100% any such resolution is going to open the door to weaponize those definitions, and the topic at hand is a current-day example.

And here's another article to back up my perception of measures such as these:

Republicans’ Dangerous New Bill Would Try to Muzzle All Criticism of Israel

And by the way - the downvote button isn't intended as a disagree button. If you think I'm wrong, show me how I am.

TigrisMorte ,

Expelled from a club isn't getting banned. The Constitution requires a person be Born in the US and at least 35 Years old. Are 27 Year olds banned? Are Russians Banned? No, they are excluded from a group for not meeting the criteria to be eligible.

There is no banning going on. You are simply desperate to pretend that the Republicans are correct to not exclude Fascists from running their party. They are not. Nazis should be excluded.

be_excellent_to_each_other , (edited )
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

You are simply desperate to pretend that the Republicans are correct to not exclude Fascists from running their party. They are not. Nazis should be excluded.

No Sir, I'm desperate to help you understand that if they want to exclude Fascists from running their party they should use language that only excludes Fascists from running their party, not broadly applied to whoever they don't want at that time.

You are so hung up on the fact that I used the word "ban" one time (as did the article) that it's all you can reply to.

As a side note, I see no evidence nationally that Republicans don't want fascists running their party, and Texas Republicans can start with Greg Abbot if they'd like to convince me otherwise.

Edit: I'll include this bit again since you clearly didn't read it the first time.

Am I an antisemite because I think Israel is off the hook currently? Some people think so. Does it make me a Nazi, or as you say a "nazi simp"? I find that idea laughable, but maybe those same people think so. Maybe you do too. Or maybe someone in power a year from now will think so. I have no desire to participate in the Texas Republican party, nor any Republican party, but 100% any such resolution is going to open the door to weaponize those definitions, and the topic at hand is a current-day example.

And here's another article to back up my perception of measures such as these:

Republicans’ Dangerous New Bill Would Try to Muzzle All Criticism of Israel

TigrisMorte ,

Tolerance of intolerance is no tolerance at all. If you let Fascists in you are a Fascist party regardless of your delusional intent.

A simp, in the Political sense, is someone that "carries water" for an extreme PoV. Often a misguided "both sides" type. They are so hard fast in their moral superiority that they fail to see the real world outcomes that inevitably result.

be_excellent_to_each_other ,
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

I'm sorry that you aren't reading my replies at all. Let's end this here. Have a nice day!

bedrooms ,

If you sympathize with Nazi sympathizers, you're probably a Nazi sympathizer.

They'll say they just sympathize with Nazi sympathizer sympathizers. But then they are sympathizing with Nazi sympathizers. And so they are Nazi sympathizers.

TigrisMorte ,

If you willingly sit at a table with eleven nazis, there are a dozen nazis at the table.

Syringe ,

This is why we don’t do Thanksgiving with the fam anymore

WaxedWookie ,

What are the differences in policy prescriptions between your average Texan Republican and your average Nazi?

There’s not a punchline here.

24_at_the_withers ,

Well, Texas Republicans hate women, LGBTQ, immigrants, people that look like immigrants, the young (but already born), the old (they’re too expensive to keep alive), the educated, leftists/liberals, people that are any religion but Christianity, the poor, and sometimes Jews.

Nazis hate women, LGBTQ, immigrants, people that look like immigrants, the young (but already born), the old (they’re too expensive to keep alive), the educated, leftists/liberals, people that follow any religion but Christianity, the poor, and always Jews.

WaxedWookie ,

It’s not as overt as the Nazis yet, but there’s no shortage of mainstream Jewish dogwhistles that are targets of hate… Soros, Gates, globalist elites, the world economic forum, cultural Marxists, the WHO, Hollywood, the MSM…

Treczoks ,

If Republicans could not associate with Nazis anymore, they would loose a lot of friends…

theodewere ,
@theodewere@kbin.social avatar

Texas is so full of cowards now, even Nazis feel at home

WashedOver ,
@WashedOver@lemmy.ca avatar

https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/a4abb5f5-7092-4db4-b7df-a22b8f2ef3d9.jpeg

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Only reason I’m not okay with bombing Nazis, is I know some decent people who have the misfortune to live next to one.

Well. Maybe that ninja-blade hellfire. (Does that count as a bomb?)

TransplantedSconie ,

I call it an Extreme Mobile Blender.

PhlubbaDubba ,

That’s what we’ve got that new flying ginsu munition for!

All the precision bombs lack with infinitely more agony for the unfortunate target of basically being slap chopped at terminal velocity.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

Somebody needs to deep fake Billey Mays selling these things as the “GinsuChop.”

“Now with AutoChop action, no need to hurt your wrist slap-chopping Nazis!”

“….but wait, there’s more, all in the next five minutes, and get the special limited edition Hello Kitty ‘Hug Me’ nose art Free”

“And we’re not done yet!! Buy now, and you’ll receive not one, but Two GinsuChop™️ missiles. And if you add the SuperChop delux launcher kit, we’ll add another Four!”

“All statements void where prohibited…”

ours ,

The picture is a Lancaster dropping a “blockbuster” bomb in conjunction with incendiary bomblets.

Wrecking and torching a city is not OK in my book. But I’m less concerned with the health of individual nazis.

FuglyDuck ,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

like I said… only reason I’m not okay with that photo… I know a guy I’d rather not like to see bombed in pest control… y’know? And for the record, I knew it was a Lancaster. knew a guy who built “museum grade” 1/4scales for very-local airshows (think count fairs and kids at schools. they were all R/C, mind. Those were beautiful. Even better was the ‘kiddie scale’ b-25… that he’d open up and let the kids go inside and go to town… it was scaled so it would ‘feel’ full-sized. Yes. He’d disable the engines, but the control surfaces all worked. Like handing the kids crack-laced sugar.)

But. the jokes… the hellfire missile we’re talking about has blades that spring out on it. probably a billion+ R&D racket there…

thantik , (edited )

Meanwhile in Florida, they’re banning even the thought of pro-palestinian speech. Idaho even still has laws on the books that allow the wearing of masks in public racist events because of their wide swath of KKK supporters. The world is a fucked up place.

A couple of months back, we had literal nazis on i4 in Florida - and some of them got arrested – not for being Nazis. But for NOT GETTING PERMITS to hang signs. The left the rest of the Nazis alone on i4 with signs so long as they weren’t being hung on the overpass. This shit went on for weeks. I asked a black detective of the Altamonte Springs PD why tf they weren’t getting arrested, and he wouldn’t answer me.

DeepGradientAscent ,
@DeepGradientAscent@programming.dev avatar

I asked a black detective of the Altamonte Springs PD why tf they weren’t getting arrested, and he wouldn’t answer me.

He should’ve mentioned this case.

thantik ,

Florida has laws on the books prohibiting facial coverings at events like these, they were breaking the law.

www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/876.12

As with anything, it’s easy to find a law they were breaking and arrest them for THAT instead. They do it for their political opponents, but not Nazis.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

why tf they weren’t getting arrested

Because being an asshole isn't illegal in America. And you wouldn't want it to be, either.

quatschkopf34 ,

Nazis are not only grumpy assholes, they literally want to kill entire groups of people just because of their skin colour or ethnicity. A democracy can‘t tolerate people like that because they themselves are anti-democratic.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

Can't prosecute people for what they think or want, only what they do. And again, you wouldn't want that to be the case.

RGB3x3 ,

You’re getting downvoted, but people just need to imagine that the people in power use that same law to arrest pro-palestinian protesters. You don’t want the government to have the legal authority to arrest you for your opinions.

That said, it doesn’t mean you as a person have to tolerate Nazis. You don’t

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

I usually hate being downvoted; it makes me feel dumb. But this is one of those opinions I'm very confident in, so I'll live with downvotes.

WaxedWookie ,

So the genocides need to happen again before we can do anything about them?

This isn’t thought crime - it’s a group motivated by hate, that has a history of genocide, and previously had to be stopped by the military might of the bulk of the western world. They’re working to recruit and to intimidate, there’s zero value to their existence, and very good reason to stop them.

What have I missed?

thantik ,

However, wearing face coverings in Florida for these purposes, IS: www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/876.12

And it hasn’t stopped cops from arresting people for being black, etc in the past.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

Those things are bad and that shouldn't be a law.

thantik ,

Those laws exist in a lot of states. That’s why I mentioned Idaho specifically in the first reply. They’re home of one of the biggest KKK groups in America, and are one of the very reasons why they didn’t have those laws implemented.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_law

Drivebyhaiku , (edited )

I mean… There are other models? Being a Nazi publically is illegal in a number of countries. America doesn’t have restrictions on hate speech but Canada does. Here’s how it works here :

You are totally allowed to express your opinions in private, to other people directly. If you are at my house and call me a slur - still legal. You are a fucking asshole and I am allowed at any time to tell you to leave for any reason and if you refuse to leave my house you are then commiting a completely different arrestable offence.

But if you take your paint and decide to mark a big swastika on the side of your house or wave a sign with “we should kill ____ people” (for any of the protected categories of people race/sex/sexuality/religion/gender/mental illness etc. ) on an overpass or assemble in a big group white pointy hoods with the express purpose of working yourself up to a genocide. That is illegal.

It’s the aspect of public expression which makes it illegal.

Americans tend to think that any checks on their freedom of speech is a sudden descent into 1984 but laws like this have quietly existed on our books for the past 30 years.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

That is certainly a way to do it, but I don't think limiting public expression is good. Bad things done with noble intent are still bad things.

Drivebyhaiku ,

Hard disagree. Advocacy for genocide or groups historically known to enact genocide has zero public merit. They deserve no devil’s advocate and literally nothing good comes from treating them as a valid position. At best they have a negative value of contribution to peace, social tolerance and the real everyday mental and physical welfare of people habitually eradicated by genocidal regimes.

The step these groups require to make their desired outcomes happen is to be normalized and to have the sense that they represent a majority. Allowing them to build concensus and harass their targets in public with the express permission of the law allows that foothold. Sometimes we should agree certain actions don’t belong in the places we share. That public space should reflect a democratic attitude of mutual respect, safety and tolerance.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

And I would argue that if these ideas are gaining any kind of foothold broadly, the rest of the citizenry is abjectly failing to meet their social obligations. Society doesn't get to just coast; we all have to be out there every day expressing and pushing for what society should be. Make the public square so full of good ideas that the fringe ass holes are drowned out.

And the harassment that you describe is possible because too many of us don't engage and make clear by our actions and speech what isn't socially acceptable.

It is an uncomfortable idea that the rise in authoritarianism around the world is somehow our fault. No snowflake and avalanches and all that. But if we are sleepwalking into a world where garbage in the public square isn't fought against by overwhelming numbers of people, we kind of get what we deserve as a whole and everyone suffers, especially those that are disadvantaged. We are responsible.

And no, it is not good enough to simply hand over the responsibility to "fix" this to the state-sanctioned-violence branch and your local paramilitary police force. The hearts of men can't be legislated away; they must be won. With hard work and public display. And if we try to coast and just "keep it out of the public" these ideologies will definitely fester in private.

WaxedWookie ,

Perhaps being a member of a group that committed a series of genocides, was a military enemy of the and US, and is grounded in nothing but conspiacism and pseudoscience that had to be stopped by the combined military force of half the western world should be illegal.

The main downside of protecting Nazism is genocide - what’s the upside?

Would you defend the rise of ISIS in the US for the same reasons, and if not, why not?

thecrotch ,

Would you defend the rise of ISIS in the US for the same reasons, and if not, why not?

I’d defend someone who’s being arrested for wearing an isis t-shirt

WaxedWookie ,

Putting aside the effect of the t-shirt, has that happened (for ISIS or Nazis), or are you making things up to be afraid of?

Both ISIS and Nazis are terror groups whose explicit goal it is to kill large numbers of people. Their very existence is tantamount to a death threat made against Jews, “sexual deviants”, “lesser races”, the west, socialists, and so on…

thecrotch ,

has that happened (for ISIS or Nazis)

Not in the US that I’m aware of. Nazi t-shirts are banned in Australia, and probably several other countries. I wouldnt say I’m afraid of it but I’m not making it up either.

Both ISIS and Nazis are terror groups whose explicit goal it is to kill large numbers of people

You’ll get no argument from me. But wearing a T-shirt or shouting a slogan is a far cry from killing someone. The freedom of speech in the US includes the freedom to hold and express shitty or simply unpopular opinions. It’s a necessary evil in order to prevent things like banning legitimate criticism of Israel.

WaxedWookie ,

It’s in Victoria, not Australia wide (and came in response to a huge amount of Nazi fuckery), but that’s beside the point. Even when a Nazi dipshit stood outside a courthouse in Melbourne, next to Tom Sewell, shouted “HEIL HITLER”, while doing a Nazi salute (after appearing in court for attacking 6 backpackers), then shouted “Australia for the white man, heil Hitler.”, there was zero consequences.

The violence is the ideology. The very simple answer to “This is a slippery slope - where does it stop?” is when it becomes a problem. Protecting genocidal morons is a problem - stopping them is both a moral imperative and social good.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

what’s the upside

That all groups are equally protected under the law, whether you like them or not. I'm sure AIPAC would love to designate supporting the liberation of Palestine a hate crime. I'm sure that corporate lobbyists would love to designate unions as a violent and disruptive organizations.

Would you defend the rise of ISIS in the US for the same reasons

If they are committing concrete acts of violence, no. If they rise as a political body, then yes.

WaxedWookie ,

Both ISIS and the Nazis have committed a huge amount of violence, yet you defend them - why?

You don’t see the issue with comparing two groups whose objective is genocide with two groups with fairly specific goals oriented around freedom, which have committed sporadic violence serving those ends?

For what it’s worth, I place Hamas in the Nazi/ISIS bucket for consistent reasons.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

I don't have to support a group's actions to still believe they have the same human rights of freedom of speech and thought that others do. There's a reason that human rights apply to everyone, even prisoners. Even monsters. Stripping away fundamental rights from the "right" people is not a moral stance.

I defend their human rights for the same reason I defend yours.

WaxedWookie ,

You drew the line at violence, but defend the Nazis and ISIS - What’s the bar for unacceptable violence? More than the 17 million people the Nazis killed, obviously, but where is that line?

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

I don't know what you want from me man. To say nazis are bad? No shit, that's obvious.

You ask where I draw the line. Between actions and ideas. I can't make this any more clear.

Nazi held a sign at a protest? Shitty, but not illegal.

Nazi hurts someone? Illegal.

WaxedWookie ,

I don’t think there’s any doubt the Nazis are bad - which is why they’re a good example. When they’ve had power, they killed millions - the violence has already happened at an incredible scale, but you continue to defend their existence.

Surely you don’t propose atomising response to the individual level - that we only react to individual members of openly genocidal groups after they harm/kill someone, otherwise allowing the unhindered operation and growth of those groups?

Protecting openly genocidal groups’ speech is akin to protecting individuals’ rights to make death threats (even after they’ve killed a bunch of people) - the speech itself is harmful, intimidating minorities, and it’s a strong indicator of upcoming violence that you can prevent instead of waiting for innocent people to get harassed, attacked, and killed. Conversely, there’s zero social utility to the hate speech other than identifying genocidal cunts that are probably deserving of some violence, for the betterment of society - the ol’ paradox of tolerance.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

Surely you don’t propose atomising response to the individual level

I do.

WaxedWookie ,

Death threats too? Shouting fire in a crowded theater?

Again, this speech reduces freedom, has no meaningful utility, and very directly leads to, encourages, and spreads the violence - with all this in mind, it’s unfathomable to me that anyone would defend it.

Outside the disagreement, I’ll also say I’m pretty wary of free speech absolutists - I can’t speak for you, but they tend to drop their principles the moment someone says something they don’t like - see Musk for an example of this.

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.social avatar

Death threats too?

Criminal threats are typically actionable. They indicate a concrete act is intended.

Shouting fire in a crowded theater?

A famously incorrect example of unprotected speech. It actually is protected speech, it's just a catchy phrase that people never seem to look into beyond a surface level.

it’s unfathomable to me that anyone would defend it

Because at least half of the country I live in would love nothing more to apply these same ideas of restricting the flow of ideas and speech to me. To their mind, my liberal lefty atheistic ideals are diametrically opposed to their world view. To their understanding of the world, I'm actively making the world a worse place just by being in it. I have actively benefited from the freedom of thought and speech that I support while growing up in a deep red and deeply religious small town.

What you should be asking yourself is why these abhorrent ideas get any traction at all. The public square should be filled with good ideas. Put your ideas out for how to make society better. Put out your critique and world view. The speech you hate so much should be drowned out by all the good speech. The fact that it's not, and has garnered any sort of appeal points to a failure on society's part, writ large. We have an obligation to push society forward and be proactive in guiding society where we want it to go. Like I said in another comment, the hearts of men can't be legislated away; they have to be won.

We clearly have different philosophies on the value of freedom of thought. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this.

WaxedWookie ,

It’s super-weird that you’d defer to what’s legal when you’re asked if something is moral - particularly when you imply there’s a risk legislation will turn against you at some point.

There’s a bunch of reasons bad ideas circulate, but they’re generally a product of the interests of those with economic/political power. That’s a far broader, more difficult issue to solve than the proliferation of genocidal ideologies.

You want this problem solved?

  • Here’s the definition of genocide (the UN one works fine).
  • Genocidal groups are now outlawed.

As far as organised crime goes, there’s not really a higher bar, is there? The likes of BLM that you cited earlier don’t meet this bar - not by a long shot.

cheese_greater ,

Or themself. Everybody does it, I’m not crazy + alone or either seperately

donescobar ,

Let’s be real, if they banned these associations they couldn’t even talk to each other!

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