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phoenixz ,

18% service charge and then still ask for tips? Fuck all of this, this is a scam and refuse to pay this shit.

Dkarma ,

This is probably a hotel or resort. $4 cookie and $6 oj are the giveaways .

$11 cannoli etc.

freeman ,

Based on the bottom of the receipt i would have said to the server something like “great, it says right here no need to tip”

https://lemmy.pub/pictrs/image/e7db2010-54f2-4bec-bf17-90005dd1a8ad.png

badbytes ,

LOL

III ,

What a lovely way to ensure that your customers will never return.

SocialMediaRefugee ,

How about just raising prices since it is a cost of running the business.

Natanael ,

Exactly, it’s a linear extra cost so just bump all the prices that much.

Not_Alec_Baldwin ,

But if you tell the customer how much things cost they won’t buy as much.

It’s just layer upon layer of dishonesty. The only time businesses get honest is when the government forces them to.

freeman ,

In a vacuum that would be fine. But in the current culture that likely wouldn’t overcome the tipping standard/culture and may just drive customers away thinking the prices are too high. Unless you have a huge blatant no tipping sign all over the place.

This isn’t too indigestible as it stands provided the wait staff understand they are likely to only get a tip for excellent service.

But to do this on top of an 11 dollar cannoli. That’s a bit different too. I hope it was like a dozen cannolis.

awesome357 ,

That sounds just like tipping, but with more steps. And also the resteraunt skimming a chunk of it too I’m sure. 18% service fee so we can pay 8% higher wages.

WhipTheLlama ,

That sounds just like tipping, but with more steps

That sounds like the exact same amount of steps as tipping.

freeman ,

If anything it’s less steps. You aren’t doing any math or making any judgement calls with a service charge.

Audiotape ,

I don’t see how paying your workers is infuriating

SpaceMan9000 ,

The bottom still suggest to tip… It’s not used to give their employees a better wage, it’s to show lower prices on the menus.

papertowels ,

I actually interpreted that is tipping is now optional because the service charge goes to the staff

protist ,

I agree, the tip at that point is entirely optional whereas without the service charge it would be expected. This seems no different than a “18% gratuity will be added to parties of 8 or more.”

jimbo ,

the service charge goes to the staff

Does it? Tips are legally protected and must go to staff, but I don’t think the same applies to “service charges”.

phillaholic ,

This would reduce tipping a lot, so if the staff weren’t being paid well to begin with I don’t see how they’d continue working there.

nogooduser ,

It says on the receipt that they use the service charge to post a higher wage so if that is true then it does (indirectly) go to the staff. Like you say though - there’s no guarantee that it all goes to the staff.

papertowels ,

That’s how I interpreted the contents of the receipt, that’s all I can tell you.

Tb0n3 ,

At the very least they’re calculating the tip from the pretax/pregratuity price. Most places seem to calculate the suggested tips from the after tax total. So they’re not complete scumbags. Only mostly scumbags.

ShortBoweledClown ,

Tips exist because servers were/are paid below minimum wage. A service charge should replace the tip, not be added on top of it. Or the restaurant should factor labor costs into the price of their meals. The owners are double dipping to shift the cost onto the consumer.

brygphilomena ,

Service charges are bullshit. Businesses need to advertise the full price of the food.

Imo, this is simply unacceptable.

ShortBoweledClown ,

I’m in the same boat. I think the costs should be reflected in the price of the meal.

papertowels ,

I wonder if the menu showed there was a service charge

theneverfox ,

While we’re at it, how about we make the price on the label be the price you pay at the register across the board?

Other countries don’t do this… The price is the price, no surprise sales tax or service charges. The way we do it is insane

brygphilomena ,

Our taxes in general would need an overhaul for this. City tax, county tax, state tax. There is a different tax rate on different products.

I’m not against it, it’s just that the way the USA is organized with city, county, state, and federal hierarchies each able to levy taxes makes the implementation burdensome. Not impossible, but very difficult.

theneverfox ,

Nope, not an issue. It’s easier even… You buy a frozen pizza, a bag of flour, and a case of beer. All three of those might have different taxes… You can add it up at the register, or you can add them separately when you print the price labels

brygphilomena ,

That’s if stores are the ones printing the price labels. Many prices are printed by the manufacturer on the packaging. They can print a single price on their product and ship it across the nation. All stores need to do is put it out.

theneverfox ,

They used to, but I don’t think that’s a common thing anymore. The few things that still print the price, like certain candy and Arizona iced tea, have a separate price at most places I’ve seen lately

Even then, they could just factor it in… They would make less on each unit in more expensive states, but it is an option. I saw that in places when I lived in France - and everything ended in round numbers too, it makes shopping so much more pleasant

kent_eh ,

Or the restaurant should factor labor costs into the price of their meals

This is the answer.

WoefKat ,

Well too be fair the cost will always be borne by the consumer. After all if it comes out of the operator’s pocket they’ll just up the food prices.

But that’s really what should happen because it makes the pricing clear for everyone and a salary for the waiters makes them have a decent income even when it’s quieter.

macarthur_park ,

If they need to raise prices by 18% to pay their workers, then they need to actually raise the prices on the menu. Right now this is just bait and switch, it’s dishonest and possibly illegal depending on the location.

Smeagol666 ,

Do you know how much garlic bread I can make for $5? A bunch, and fucking good too!

linearchaos ,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

You’re taking my 18% to pay them living wages, they they don’t need tips.

$11 canoli? $16.25 kids shells?

Screw that place

Smoogs ,

Add to the fact all the food in the restaurant is much higher in caloric intake, sodium and sugar than any meal you could prepare at home. You get to have some wonderful heart disease with a side of stress. Hardly worth going out to restaurants anymore.

Blackmist ,

That’s the whole point of going to a restaurant. So you can convince yourself that the food is somewhat healthy, without seeing all the salt, sugar and fat they put in it.

youtu.be/YUeEknfATJ0?t=30

Tvkan ,

That’s the whole point of going to a restaurant. >So you can convince yourself that the food is somewhat healthy, without seeing all the salt, sugar and fat they put in it.

I thought the point of going to a reastaurant was eating tasty food. No one’s lying to themselves about reastaurant food being healthy.

sanguine_artichoke ,
@sanguine_artichoke@midwest.social avatar

It’s also eating food in a social atmosphere without having to shop, prepare or cleanup.

veni_vedi_veni ,

fuck tipping culture. Why I never dine in anywhere, unless its a one off social event.

HappyPornDaze ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Rediphile ,

    I 100% would after offering to pay the full bill as indicated in the menu. I bet 99% of the time they would just accept it too. Only a sucker would pay a random tacked on fee they never agreed to.

    Chocrates ,

    Stuff like this is on the menu and posted on the restaurant windows usually.
    I agree tipping culture is insane and owners of restaurants use tips and fees to pass on labor costs to consumers, but this shouldn’t be a surprise to you.

    Edit: not you as in op I was responding to but “you” being whoever is going to the restaurant

    Rediphile ,

    A lot of times I don’t read the drink sections of the menu because I’m not having a drink. Or I might skip the dessert section. Sometimes the special that the server tells me about sounds so good so I just say ‘I will take that please’ without looking at the menu at all. I don’t read menus cover to cover nor do I inspect all signage on a window…but I guess I will now when visiting the USA since apparently that’s the expectation. If I did notice such a thing before ordering, I would just not eat there.

    And any mandatory fee is not a tip by definition so I see this as a completely different issue from tipping culture.

    mightyfoolish ,

    It actually makes me realize that I should ask for the service fee ahead of time to make sure I can afford to eat at such restaurant.

    That’s what a service fee does. Hides the true prices.

    latca ,

    Paying for servers based off of the price of the food just doesn’t make sense to me. If I order a super expensive caviar and super expensive bottle of wine the staff would be paid more than another server with large party that only orders inexpensive drinks. The second server would be paid less for doing more work.

    I think they should just be paid a decent wage for doing their job well despite what the customer decided to order.

    On a side note if the server has to do something like prepare a salad table side or flambé a dessert they should get a bonus for doing that.

    Vox ,

    at a lot of places tips are split between front and back of house and those tips are based on the price of the meal, not the “tip” that was given. This results in many servers losing money and having to pay coworkers out of their own pocket on big groups or expensive bills that either don’t tip at all or only tip something like 10%.

    I’m not advocating for this system at all, I just wanted to share some more info on how/why tipping works the way it does (in the US at least).

    KairuByte ,
    @KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    What percentage tip results in negative money?

    atrielienz , (edited )

    It’s a tip pool. So for instance I serve a meal to a couple. The meal is $50. They tip 10%. That split means I pay (for instance) the bartender out of the $5 tip $2.50. If I get another table that orders drinks and tips nothing I end up splitting nothing. But if I work with 4 other back of house people and they each get an equal percentage of that $5 then I get a dollar. But then that dollar is taxed because tips are taxed. If the company has a policy for shares tips pooling I could legitimately make $100 in tips and not receive $100 in tips. Technically that would be receiving negative tips because what is earned vs what is paid out is so drastically different.

    In addition I’ve experienced back of house workers (cooks) getting paid out of the tip pool but the brunt of tax on the tips is not paid by them. This is absolutely tax fraud. But I’d also argue that tip pools are a form of wage theft and companies that engage in one are way more likely to engage in the other.

    KairuByte ,
    @KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

    That isn’t negative tips. The lowest you can make in tips is $0. Even when tip pooling, the lowest you can make is $0, which requires no tips what so ever to have been given. There is no 100% tax rate, and you are at no point ever paying into the tip pool out of your own pocket.

    atrielienz , (edited )

    I understand what you’re saying. But for a person who is now down from $5 to $2.50 to a $100 that is then taxed you’re effectively making less money than you earned. That’s why you can have negative net even while making take home pay.

    But think about what might happen if the bill is paid incorrectly in cash. The company will absolutely take cash tips to compensate in the event that you or someone else messed up when counting the cash or giving change or whatever. With tip pools it’s unlikely. But it has happened.

    EinfachUnersetzlich ,

    Wait, you’re taxed on money you didn’t earn?

    atrielienz , (edited )

    It’s technically tax fraud, but yes. You could be. Back of house staff can include managers, cooks and dish washers, and even the hostess. Those people aren’t paid the $2.75 to $3.75 that the wait staff are paid. They’re considered hourly employees and they fall under different pay requirements under the law. A business that doesn’t augment the amount of pay for wait staff not making the federal minimum wage ($7.25) an hour in tips, that business is committing wage theft. To then be paying non-wait staff out of the wait staff tips is illegal as part of the wage theft. But since the company is already committing wage theft there’s no reason not to commit tax fraud to cover up the wage theft.

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    Managment can not legally be part of tip pools in the US,

    atrielienz ,

    Please read the above thread because I recognize that it is illegal, but so are tax fraud and wage theft.

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    I did. The thing is tip pools themselves aren’t inherently illegal. They’re doing illegal things with the tip pool. There is a distinction there.

    atrielienz ,

    Apparently Federal Law sort invalidates the legality of a tip pool altogether because the tip only counts as a tip if the person who tips determines who the tip is given to and how much and it’s non compulsory. But a lot of places ignore that as well.

    www.nolo.com/…/state-laws-tipped-employees.html

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    Management was stealing wages from you, comitting tax fraud

    Thst is not how taxes work, and if they’re reporting it that way they’re breaking the law.

    Diasl ,

    I don’t think you know how numbers work. Why would they be paying coworkers out of a tip that never existed?

    Okokimup ,
    @Okokimup@lemmy.world avatar

    I worked as a server at olive garden many years ago. They famously had their soup, salad, and breadsticks deal for like $6 something. People would run us ragged getting more of each thing. And we’d be lucky to get a $1 or 2 because the price was so low, but it was vastly more work than regular food.

    dan ,
    @dan@upvote.au avatar

    I think they should just be paid a decent wage for doing their job well despite what the customer decided to order

    Where I live, there’s no separate minimum wage for tipped positions. It’s the same as the regular minimum wage. Even so, it’s still customary to tip, but just for some jobs. It’s never made sense to me that it’s customary to tip a Doordash driver but not a casual FedEx or UPS employee when the latter likely has more work to do and stricter deadlines to do it.

    III ,

    not a casual FedEx or UPS employee

    Do you want corporate efforts to reduce delivery driver wages and processes to demand you pay their wages through delivery tips? Because I am sure are ready to go on this endeavor as soon as you want.

    dan ,
    @dan@upvote.au avatar

    As far as I know, some of the casual/seasonal drivers (extra delivery drivers for holiday deliveries) don’t get paid much more than minimum wage. I’m not talking about the unionized employees.

    My overall point was that there’s many jobs that get paid minimum wage, so why are only some of them tipped? It would be more consistent to either be all tipped, or not tipped.

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    It’s not going to the server, not unless the city has a minimum wage, or something. But any thing over that is 100% going to managment’s coffers.

    vrighter ,

    ALL cities in all states have a minimum wage for all workers. By federal law

    FuglyDuck ,
    @FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

    Yes. But some cities (or states, even,) specify another-higher minimum.

    Since you want to be pedantic… most cities don’t have a minimum wage established; deferring instead to federal or state law.

    PhlubbaDubba ,

    Anyone who wants to rant about how Lemmy is all tankies and fringe leftists oughta come see what happens when underpaid workers have the gall to so much as stink eye a customer who doesn’t tip.

    In below cost of living income jobs tipping isn’t a reward for good service, it’s the “not a callous fuckface” tax for people who actually care about making sure their fellow workers don’t fucking starve over their bosses’ greed.

    Got a problem with it, call a congressman, otherwise, stop using service work if you’re not willing to pay the actual full price for the service.

    DreBeast ,

    So the patron not only pays for the food/service, but there’s a separate fee to pay for ALL employees living wages??

    If this trend continues the customers will end up making the food too!? Lol, I would talk to the manager for sure.

    macaro ,

    $18.25 for a kids meal, $6 for lemonade is ridiculous. Don’t walk, run away!

    Pyr_Pressure ,

    The lemonade is the same price as a beer 🤣

    Pyr_Pressure ,

    Straight up fees like that should not be legal, if they even are in that location.

    They should instead just add 18% to every menu item since it applies to everything anyways.

    As it is right now advertising their cannoli for $11.00 is a straight up lie since it’s really $12.98. They simply don’t because they want to hide the actual cost and make their menu appear to be cheaper so you cant walk out until after you’ve ordered and eaten.

    Also if got a bill with an 18% service charge I would definitely not tip, since tips are supposed to adjust for the low wages anyways.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Hey, Restaurant Bill. What did you kill, Restaurant Bill?

    Pratai ,

    I would have not paid the 18% fee and let them explain it to the cops when they arrived. I guarantee that’s not posted anywhere that they do that- so…

    False advertising.

    UnderpantsWeevil ,
    @UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

    I would have not paid the 18% fee

    Putting in a -18% tip when I swipe my credit card.

    runner_g ,

    I frequently see “an 18% gratuity charge will be applied to parties of 6 or more” on menus. It’s possible that this was posted and OP just missed it.

    Edit: JK just read the text at the bottom where it calls it out as not a gratuity.

    June ,

    It’s not a gratuity, but restaurants like this often don’t expect tips either. At least in my area.

    SeaJ ,

    Places that do this will have fine print at the bottom of their menu mentioning the charge so they can avoid legal issues.

    Nollij ,

    Possibly illegal, depending on your local laws.

    If it is legal, contact your congressman (local, state, national) because it sure as hell needs to be illegal.

    CanadaPlus ,

    So you carefully included every possible level of US government, but still forgot about the entire rest of the world.

    Sabin10 ,

    The rest of the world doesn’t exist, it’s just a scam made up by the passport cartel to fleece you of your money every few years.

    CanadaPlus ,

    Can confirm, I’m just standing in a blank white space. It’s weird I get wifi.

    gdog05 ,

    Do a search for the Tianamen Square massacre. You’ll at least know if you’re Chinese white space or non Chinese white space

    CanadaPlus ,

    Oh no, it’s turning black. Chairman forgive me!

    Nollij ,

    First, many places have a local, state, and national government. Particularly the ones that use dollars and expect an additional tip, as shown on the receipt.

    Stop trying to be offended at everything.

    CanadaPlus ,

    My country, which has dollars and expects tips, doesn’t. And this read like it was addressing unexpected fees at restaurants in general.

    Stop pretending Americans don’t do this constantly. Everyone who’s not American is very familiar with it, and honestly it’s understandable with how big and self-contained that country is. I might not even have commented if it wasn’t for the remarkable thoroughness short of that detail.

    Nollij ,

    I presume you’re in Canada. Aside from calling them provinces, and possibly having a different name for your legislative representatives, are you saying you DON’T have a local, state, and national government where my advice would be relevant?

    CanadaPlus ,

    No, you’re advice was great. I just found the phrasing weird enough to point out. Sorry if it came across as angry.

    DeepFriedDresden ,

    Let's see... dollar sign? Well that cuts out a lot of the world. Written in English, so that leaves about 3 countries. Australia doesn't have a tipping culture the same way we do in North America so that leaves either Canada or the US, in which case you can replace state with province and cover your bases.

    CanadaPlus ,

    Don’t forget New Zealand. They do tip down under, but it sounds like they don’t recommend tips the same way.

    Yeah, sure, the jist applies everywhere. OP could have saved words just saying “representitives”. That’s the part that was interesting, and now people are big butthurt I pointed it out.

    Nollij ,

    I mentioned all 3 because people (at least around me) tend to forget the first 2, despite those being much easier to make these types of changes.

    wolfpack86 ,

    Percentages on the tip are lower than US tip amounts. So I would guess not US, though this would obviously happen in the states.

    DeepFriedDresden ,

    Good catch, I didn't even notice the percentages. I did look at the date but of course the meal was purchased on the one day this month where that's not helpful

    Nollij ,

    Do other countries itemize tax separately? I thought the US was alone on that.

    Also, 9.5% is in line with sales tax in a few US states, as is calling it tax instead of VAT (or similar)

    wolfpack86 ,

    Idunno. don’t remember what they do in Canada.

    Spaghetti_Hitchens , (edited )

    Looks at a picture of a receipt that is almost certainly from the US:

    What about the rest of the world?!

    CanadaPlus ,

    It looks exactly like a receipt that could be here, too. As has been repeatedly pointed out to me, there’s only 2 to 4 countries this could apply to, but you’ll excuse me for expecting the same thing as always was happening.

    flipht ,

    Very unlikely. There's a statement at the bottom that explains what the fee is. There's a QR code at the top for more information, which OP cut off.

    I doubt they went through the effort of updating their POS system, providing links to info on the receipt, and chose not to post a sign or put a note on the menu. Everywhere I have been with a service fee like this posts it, which would negate any legal issue.

    Caveat emptor.

    LufyCZ ,

    It’s illegal if the fact that a service fee would be added wasn’t shared before ordering (on the menu / by the waiter /…)

    Nollij ,

    Possibly. Local laws vary heavily, and could limit hidden fees like these. If the franchise is in one of these places, but the parent chain is not, it could easily be implemented despite being illegal. It’s a similar case if the local operator didn’t have the required notices in the required way, since it would be done separately. Not necessarily out of malice, but a ton of places simply do not run a tight ship. The receipt is absolutely not the place these notices are required; that’s just a convenience.

    It’s also possible that the POS has a bunch of options that can easily be set by management without involving lawyers. A required tip (often for large groups, but not always) is an easy use case for this. So are the various messages, including the tipping scale, or adding a promotional QR code (e.g. scan the code to fill out a survey and get $5 off your next visit)

    In any event, I stand behind my advice- check if it’s illegal, and push to make it illegal.

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