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Mango ,

This applies to literally every form of government.

YeetPics ,
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

No, you stupid western swine. That’s just westoid propaganda!

However I, too, wasn’t aware China’s historic fascism problem was the result of capitalistic woes.

Everyday i learn new facts from .ml, like China invented capitalism (take THAT, Sumer!!1).

saltesc ,

One’s an economic school of thought, the other a political one, so obviously you can have both at the same time or even working together. Coincidentally corporate business is mostly anti-fascist right now because social diversity and progressiveness is where the money’s at

I can only guess you’ve used one of the words out of context. If it was fascism, I have nfi what the meme is trying to say by linking Superman to capitalism in the same way Homelander is easily linked with fascism.

If the joke instead about fascism, then maybe something positive and relatable to it would make sense. Patriotism is what I think of since Superman loves America, but shows little concern for anyone else and this sentiment could start festering domestically, especially if the love for country becomes ultra-nationalistic.

emergencyfood ,

There is a saying, something along the lines of ‘politics is the shadow that economics casts over society’. Now obviously there is no one to one correlation between a country’s economic and political systems, but rich people often respond to calls for economic reform by trying to make the public fight among themselves. Fascism is one possibility, ‘culture war’ is another, bread and circuses a third, and so on.

saltesc ,

Trying to think of that one time fascism was economically beneficial to capitalists… Nope. I can’t recall one.

Edit: Oh, wait. If you were supplying a side against fascism, it’s always been very beneficial. I know that’s in contrast to the meme, but supports your point in a “round peg; square hole” kinda way.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

…wikipedia.org/…/List_of_companies_involved_in_th…

Fascism has always been done by and for Capitalists.

saltesc ,

You…literally just linked a list of suppliers to a regime. Which, of course, had to exist in order for the regime to be sustained. Which of course lost supply as the sustainability diminished.

Do you know how many companies were passive or against it? It’s a little more… Quite a bit more. Millions(?) more. You’ve essentially just tried to correlated registered businesses with the entire economic school of Capitalism. “If it’s a registered business, it’s Capitalism, huuur.”

Come on, I can think of better counter-points than that.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Wait, did you think people were saying that the Nazis were for every Capitalist on the planet? No, we were talking about Nazi Germany and some Western companies.

You’ve fundamentally misunderstood what everyone was talking about.

saltesc ,

Superman, Homelander, and fascism on the rise in the leading capitalism nation?

What did you think it was about?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Fascism has always been beneficial for Capitalists, because it was always extremely profitable, the entire point of fascism. Simple.

saltesc ,

Literally, that was one of my points…

Where are you trying to go with this?

emergencyfood ,

Trying to think of that one time fascism was economically beneficial to capitalists… Nope. I can’t recall one.

Almost all fascist politicians were supported by local elites who thought they could control them. Sometimes they could; sometimes the fascists got too strong to be controlled.

saltesc ,

That’s the general recipe of ultra-nationalistic fascism, yes. You’re not making much of a point and you’re also disregarding all the other instances of fascism.

A common thread being control, some times that can be through a local economical channel. That’s not immediately “Capitalism” and actually quite unrelated.

emergencyfood ,

All fascism is nationalist. There’s no ‘other instance’. And a common theme in the rise of fascism is a compromise between the rich (capitalists, local gentry, etc.) and the fascist organisation, where the former bankrolls the latter in return for maintaining their economic and social position / backdoor deals / protection. Further, this usually happens as a result of some marginalised group - factory workers, serfs, women, etc. getting too uppity.

greencactus , (edited )

Fun fact: The nowadays conservative (and IMO right leaning) German CDU has originally considered capitalism to be the reason for outbreak for WW2. They wanted to form a new Christian Socialism, which would’ve united Christian ideals with a socialistic (not marxistic) economy. The so-called Kölner Erklärung was written in 1945 as a basic idea for where Germany should head from perspective of the CDU.

These ideas didn’t last for long and got replaced by a conservative fiscal policy. But it is good to keep in mind that even in the CDU there were people who recognized that capitalism ultimately has a strong tendency to fuel fascism. In Nazi Germany, the main capitalists worked closely with the NSDAP - Krupp, Bosch, Hugo Boss (who famously designed the Nazi uniforms), Volkswagen were all lead by rich capitalists who saw (and gained) profit by the actions of the Nazis. It makes me sad that even the SPD, the so-called Social Democratic Party, long forgot what it means to fight for socialism and equality, and instead embraces neoliberalism with a touch of social politics.

ben_dover ,

Bose Hugo Boss

greencactus ,

Thank you, is corrected :)

ours ,

It makes so much more fundamental sense for the followers of Jesus to embrace socialist values as opposed to the tendency of Christians to follow both conservative and capitalistic politics.

I’m an atheist but I was raised Christian Catholic and the stark contrast between the religious texts and parables with the actions of the average Christian or the Church was a great contributor to my rejection of religion. I still see value in some of the teachings (be nice to others, people before material things) and always took them closer to socialism values than the Supply Side Jesus right-leaning Christians adopted.

CancerMancer ,

Same. I always wondered how ideas like giving what you can, loving thy neighbour, and forgiveness to the extreme somehow results in Supply Side Jesus, “Protestant work ethic”, jail time for addictions, “law and order” politics, etc…

These people have strayed so far from the teachings and I’m not sure how they can claim to follow them and then blame homeless people for being homeless.

ours ,

Exactly, like all religions anybody can dig into the texts and find a justification for their personal and political views but the Jesus I was brought up with, while I don’t believe he existed, had some pretty decent key points (forgiveness, love, sharing, empathy, charity…). These contrast strongly with the judgemental, conservative, nationalist, racist “Christians”.

They would probably have hung this “rebellious, commie jew” themselves today if their much-awaited second coming had taken place.

CableMonster ,

I think a big issue is that people call things that are not capitlatist “capitalist”. The US is called capitalist, but it has the largest government in the history of the world, that is not capitalism.

PanoptiDon ,

Yet lobbyists exist. Every single government official is sponsored by companies via super PACs

CableMonster ,

Yes exactly, those lobbyists exist because there is a huge amount of power to take so they can control us.

immutable ,

Yea the people with the capital have the power. Capitalism.

CableMonster ,

What power do Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk have over you?

immutable ,

Are you serious?

Jeff Bezos has spent millions of dollars on union busting to prevent his workers from collectively bargaining for better wages. This massive chunk of the workforce then continues to work for less than they are worth because of his illegal tactics. This creates a systemic downwards pressure on wages across the entire workforce. Investors in the capital class gave Amazon a blank check to crush retailers for decades while losing money, because they knew at some point he would have a grip on the market and could stop providing high quality goods and start pumping out cheap garbage from companies like KYZGURK and BULJCOW and reap in massive profits. The capital class destroyed the retail sector and now you get the “convenience” of every purchase making him profits while the items you buy consistently decrease in quality.

Musk admitted to pushing the hyper loop, knowing it was unworkable, to try to prevent California’s high speed rail project. There’s no bullet train I can hop on to get to LA right now because of the power he flexed.

Musk just said he would put $45m a month into a trump super pac, his wealth makes him think that he should get to decide the outcome of our election. He purchased twitter and now has control over the algorithmic feed consumed by millions of my countrymen, directly influencing their thoughts and feelings an any range of topics.

They both contribute to the government to write laws favorable to them, reducing their tax burden and increasing mine. They promote candidates that are aligned with their corporate interests and if those interests include eroding workers rights and moving negative externalities into the environment that has the water I drink, the air I breathe, and the food I eat, fuck me.

Bezos owns the Washington post and can move public opinion in whichever way he wants. If he wants people to think that net neutrality sucks, he can spend all day having the columnists churn that shit out, changing both politicians and the public’s sentiment on the topic by cherry picking data and presenting the most one sided arguments imaginable.

CableMonster ,

Jeff bezos has conflicts with his workers, and his system revolutionized how we buy things.

There’s no bullet train I can hop on to get to LA right now because of the power he flexed.

This is false, it was not going to happen.

How exactly did they harm you? “They both contribute to the government to write laws favorable to them, reducing their tax burden and increasing mine” - this would be the takeaway I would like you to have, not the propaganda about how they mistreat people. I get what you are saying, but the capital is not what harms you, its how they interact with the thing the can harm you, the government.

immutable ,

I hear your point it’s just wrong.

It’s clear that you believe the government is the bad thing here. I see you completely skipped over all my points about how their market manipulation harms the consumer and the worker. That manipulation is purely from them having a bunch of money and using it to their advantage and does not require a government boogie man.

It’s not that I can’t see the point you want to make, they corrupt the government and then the governments power is the thing that hurts me. First it’s wrong because if we were some sort of anarchy society, bezos using investor money to undersell and falsely outcompete the rest of the market until he has a stranglehold on the economy and can exact a tax on every item sold would still happen.

The fact that you don’t think high speed rail can be built, despite it existing all over the world, is just your opinion. The fact that musk has said he promoted the hyperloop in hopes of pulling funding and support from high speed rail is a thing that happened in reality

Let’s say that we took the power away from the government. Poof just like that they can’t regulate how much rat shit is in your Amazon prime food or if Elon can dump the toxic waste from his battery production in your drinking water. The harm of regulatory capture and lobbyist power just gets replaced with capitalists directly harming you. How is that better?

CableMonster ,

I didnt ignore what you said, I am trying to redirect it from the rhetoric to the solid. Its not that the government is all bad or corrupt or even bad, its that it is used to benefit the people that can get that power. The more government there is the better it is for big business and rich people. Its not that Jeff or Elon can typically harm you, its that they can make the government do things in their favor and against your interests.

I get your points, but you I think that you are mistaking no government for less government. Is the price of necessities being so high good for you, or would you like inflation not to destroy your earnings?

immutable ,

What do you think they would do with less government? Do you think they would be benevolent titans of industry and not hurt you if it meant greater profits for them?

It’s not like we have to wonder. There is plenty of history to go read about what people like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk would do without any restraints on their power. Factory towns where workers are paid in scrip and kept in effective indentured servitude were a real thing that happened.

What magical force brings down the price of necessities when there’s less government? Look at what the free market did with respect to Amazon. Investors are happy to play the long game, they bank rolled Amazon for 9 years to compete against retailers, when the locally owned hardware store has to turn a profit to keep the lights on but the capital class says Amazon can sell hammers at a loss for 9 years, then at some point the local hardware store goes out of business. An enterprise that doesn’t need to turn a profit can out compete one that does.

Why would investors be ok with Amazon not turning a profit for 9 years? Because they knew that once they crushed the competition, they would have a bunch of people locked in, habituated to using Amazon and they could slowly decrease quality while increasing prices and make a return on that investment. They created a machine that destroyed jobs and businesses and for a while the consumer got a great deal. Subsidized high quality goods conveniently delivered to your door.

That isn’t a gift though, it’s a Trojan horse. That subsidy stops at some point and Amazon has a nearly impenetrable moat. Every year they can increase the cost of prime, increase the cost of goods, and now half the search results are some jumble of letters company that was just formed to shovel low quality goods at you.

The end result is harm to you as a consumer, a worker, and a taxpayer.

Those retail jobs are gone, instead of dozens of local business each with a workforce in every town, there can be one mega warehouse with a couple hundred people serving a huge swath of customers. This is great for amazons bottom line but if you need to work to make money to buy food and shelter, it means fewer jobs. The law of supply and demand works for the labor market just like it does anywhere else, if the demand for jobs is the same and the supply is lower then the glut of workers means employers can pay less. If there are enough unemployed people they will be willing to accept lower pay, they will be willing to accept worse working conditions, and if they aren’t there’s a hundred more unemployed people willing to take that spot. Those are direct harms to people.

Those locally owned businesses use to make up the tax bases of communities. Now instead of buying that hammer from your neighbor, you are buying a Chinese hammer from Bezos. Towns still need fire departments, police, roads, so your taxes go up because it has to come from somewhere.

Now when you go to buy a product you get whatever you get from Amazon. Enshittification is a real thing. And people can’t compete with Amazon, with their scale and their reach and their logistics. The best you can hope for is that people will try to sell through Amazon, but amazon in control of the search and there are thousands of dropshippers working to get their slice of the pie pushing quality down down down as they import cheaply made goods from alibaba and resell it to you at a mark up.

So no, the price of necessities being high is not good for me, but the government isn’t doing that. Capitalism is about the accumulation of profits to those with the capital, and more money means more ability to buy the market. There’s a reason that monopolies form in capitalist markets. Greater profits allow for greater market capture which leads to greater profits which leads to greater market capture and so on.

Competition isn’t sufficient because nothing stops people with a lot of money from going “outcompete them for a while by selling at a loss, we can do that longer than them and then we can jack up the price once our competitors exit the market.” This is exactly what investors did with Amazon.

So yes, they have the power to hurt me and you. You keep talking about less government, ok fine, what part? Which function of government would you remove that would improve the situation? What mechanism replaces that function and how does it work?

CableMonster ,

The main flaw that I think you are making is that you see similar circumstances to something in the past and think the same thing will happen again. Its kind of like with the Ukraine war, people see a country invading another country and think russia is nazi germany and will take over the continent, but in reality the material conditions are completely different. No, we would not start having company stores pop up and kids losing hands on sewing machines, things are drastically different from the industrial revolution.

There is a lot here, so I will directly answer your questions - what part? Because the government is huge I will talk about what I know best - housing. The government(s) add over $100k for every single family house new build, on average. These are things that are not necessary but are required. I can explain in detail because this is going to sound crazy but it is not, I would eliminate nearly all government involvement in everything two story and under. All the government should do is verify location and then verify appropriate utilities (which is both gov and private). We should do a lot of this on most things and make it so people can afford things.

The other big thing would be ending the fed.

immutable ,

I gave you 3 concrete examples of things happening right now. I put them in the context you asked for. You said I’m over pattern matching the past, which tells me you got to company towns and quit reading.

Feel free to respond but know that I’m done engaging with you. If you can’t engage in good enough faith to read what I wrote then I don’t really feel the need to humor you any longer.

Your brilliant solution is to remove zoning laws and building codes. As an engineer I can tell you those codes are written in blood, they exist because people were hurt or killed due to some home builder thinking “do I really need to ground this, I could save a 50 cents and I would really like 50 cents”

You are sitting there thinking you’ve cracked the code and if you could just get people to understand you’d win. I understand your point just fine, it’s just wrong headed.

CableMonster ,

I didnt stop reading, but comments get too long and it gets lots in the noise. But if you want it

“Why would investors be ok with Amazon not turning a profit for 9 years?” Because they had vision that amazon would become one of the biggest companies in the world.

“What magical force brings down the price of necessities when there’s less government?” - Competition.

As a former engineer and current construction business owner that deals with actual codes, I can tell you that you dont understand what is happening. As someone who has been on both sides of regulations, I understand why they exist, but they either are ignored, are overkill, or have so low a probability of happening its not worth the cost. I can give you an example of each, but I absolutely promise you that you have a false understand of what is happening.

felixthecat ,

They both are spending tons of money to spread propaganda to influence public opinion and elections is the first and easiest to point out.

They also both own major news outlets that defend them publicly and are very influential of public opinion.

Both have through their businesses received government subsidies, in effect having us tax dollars go to their pockets. This cycle is repeated through the influence they buy by spreading propaganda, using lobbyists, using money as a tool within the government apparatus to generate more money for their companies and in turn for themselves.

CableMonster ,

Why does influencing public opinion and elections matter to you?

I like your last paragraph, I think it distills it nicely. Its not that they directly harm you, they influence the government which is allowed to harm you.

felixthecat ,

If you don't think that influencing public opinion matters in a democratic republic, I invite you to learn about Hitler's rise to power, Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi party in Germany, and the holocaust. Using the same propaganda techniques used by the Nazi party, misinformation is used to influence public opinion. This is especially true on Elon's Twitter, but Bezos has used the same techniques to attempt to union bust.

Millions of people died as a result of the propaganda campaigns of the Nazi party. I fear history is about to repeat itself in the usa.

CableMonster ,

So as you say influencing public opinion is bad because then that public opinion is used by a POWERFUL government to harm people. I agree that is what I am talking about, the government having the power over your life is the bad thing, not the opinions of rich people. They can have whatever opinion they want, and the only way they can make it count is if they can sway the people to vote your rights away or directly sway the current officials.

juliebean ,

jeff bezos personally came to my apartment, punched me in the face, and stole the remote to my vibrating butt plug, and now he has power over my butt.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Capitalism cannot exist without a government. Capitalism reaching the stage where large Capitalists wield the State both domestically and internationally to fuel their profits does not make it no longer Capitalist, that’s like saying a tree isn’t a plant because it is no longer a seed.

xerazal ,

Capitalism is a system of economics. It can exist with or without a government also existing.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Capitalism cannot exist without a government of some sort, as Private Property Rights are only legitimized by the threat of violence.

force ,

I was gonna disagree, but I couldn’t actually think of a functioning stateless ideology which allows private property. Anarchism is inherently for abolishing private property, so that’s out already. That mostly just leaves you with "anarcho-"capitalism which is just replacing the government with an ultra-capitalist power structure and decimating social mobility, it’s just an undemocratic state but shittier…

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yep, trying to untie Capitalism from the states that accompany it is usually just a futile attempt at keeping the Capitalist State’s sins separate from Capitalism.

xerazal ,

That makes no sense. How is our economic system highly controlled in the US? Corporations run rampant, with scant regulation compared to some places like Europe.

A government’s size being big doesn’t instantly equal less capitalism if that government doesn’t do as much as it could to reel in corporate interests.

Case in point, our government here in the US is big but is controlled by corporate interests to such a degree that despite knowing about human made climate change since the late 60s, basically nothing has actually been done about it. Or how whenever there is any push for even a public option to live alongside private insurance, insurance companies go into overdrive running ads and paying politicians to push back against it so it never gets brought up after an election season.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That makes no sense. How is our economic system highly controlled in the US? Corporations run rampant, with scant regulation compared to some places like Europe.

Economic systems and Political systems do not exist independent of each other. They are intertwined.

A government’s size being big doesn’t instantly equal less capitalism if that government doesn’t do as much as it could to reel in corporate interests.

Sure, that’s not what I am talking about. Capitalism cannot exist without a state to verify Private Property rights.

Case in point, our government here in the US is big but is controlled by corporate interests to such a degree that despite knowing about human made climate change since the late 60s, basically nothing has actually been done about it. Or how whenever there is any push for even a public option to live alongside private insurance, insurance companies go into overdrive running ads and paying politicians to push back against it so it never gets brought up after an election season.

Again, my point is that stateless Capitalism does not and cannot exist.

GreyEyedGhost ,

If there was no government, and the capitalist organization hosted their means of violence internally or by hiring thugs like the Pinkertons, would it stop being capitalism?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What is a “State” or “Government” in the first place? If the Capitalist organization controlled its own means of defense, then we would see corporate wars and absorption. If there was a central mercenary force that everyone subscribed to for protection and peacekeeping, this is essentially a nightwatchman state, and you merely have a limited state.

All in all, Capitalism maintains itself through threat of violence, and monopolizes said threat. Without that factor, Private Property Rights depend on individual respect, which doesn’t ultimatley matter.

There’s also the issue of banking and currency, which needs to be backed up and maintained.

GreyEyedGhost ,

Given this paradigm, how would you describe anarchy and communism?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

We never really laid out what it means to be a “State.” Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter, and gets into technicalities.

For Anarchists, the State is a monopoly on violence. Workers having unified horizontal coalitions and equal power, in their eyes, counts as stateless.

For Marxists, the State is the portion of Government that enforces Classist society. Get rid of class contradictions, and the elements that make up those contradictions, Private Property Rights for example, and you achieve Statelessness, even with a government.

Using either of the previous definitions, Capitalism still fails to exist without a State, it requires a monopoly of violence and class society to exist.

GreyEyedGhost ,

Yeah, so the state is always a problem, from what I can see in your comments. But there can be other bad actors who aren’t government (we see them in every society) and they need to be dealt with one way or another, preferably in a way that the community approves of, and all of a sudden we have laws and government, which is a more general definition of Statehood.

So what I’m seeing here is that people who seem to think everyone will agree on how things should be done use the name for the group that enforces the rules, good or bad, that other people agree with as an epithet, while studiously ignoring that they will need similar bodies to deal with the bad actors within their society, since the only place where an ideal society exists is in the imagination.

Not that I have a problem with ideals, they can help provide a road map to get to where you want to be, and perhaps a achievable interim goals that are also worth striving for.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh, I’m a Marxist. I am fine with government, not Capitalism nor the tools of government present in Capitalist society that Capitalists use to maintain power. I am absolutely fine with courts, administration, laws, social programs, etc.

GreyEyedGhost ,

Which tools of government are used to maintain power for capitalists that also are of no use to a communist government?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Private Property Rights are a quick example, along with all aspects related to Capitalist ownership.

GreyEyedGhost ,

A little vague, but fair.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Kinda has to be vague, there are so many aspects of current society that exist to support Capitalism that would no longer need to exist. The SEC, for example, would cease to exist, as would the stock market. So much goes into maintaining and regulating those areas that would no longer need to exist that they cannot be listed outright.

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

Then that entity, be it Pinkerton or gang or army, would be government. Sure, it could also devolve below capitalism, but capitalism need government structure of some sorts, it cannot exist without it.

CableMonster ,

I agree, but the bigger the government the less capitilism there is because they are controlling the system. I am not saying its good or bad, but the economic system is highly controlled.

AngryCommieKender ,

Please read Wealth of Nations, and A Theory of Moral Sentiments. Adam Smith clearly laid out what capitalism is, and you have no clue what that word means.

CableMonster ,

Cool, what part did I miss? Also Adam Smith died hundreds of years ago, so I am not sure why he would be the go to for this.

AOCapitulator ,
@AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

Wow you definitely know what you’re talking about lmfao

CableMonster ,

Thank you!

_bonbon_ ,

Are there any examples of Open market capitalist countries becoming Fascist dictatorships?

Objection ,

Germany and Italy.

redprog ,

Chile

nintendiator ,

To be fair: not by our own account.

redprog ,

Wasn’t it basically the CIA conspiring with your military to get rid of Allende & steal back your metal factories? I remember watching a documentary years ago

Agent641 ,

RemindMe! 4 months

volodya_ilich ,

Spain

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

Every single fascist country was capitalist before.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

All fascist dictatorships.

AOCapitulator ,
@AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

Lol

KingThrillgore ,
@KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml avatar

“Who are you?”

“I’m you if Batman didn’t have a ring what makes you a removed ass”

AOCapitulator ,
@AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

What word got removed?

PrettyFlyForAFatGuy ,

What a crossover that would be

Homelander V Superman

Evilsandwichman ,

Shortest fight in the history of-

Actually never mind, Superman lets people pound his face in every fight before putting in some effort.

PrettyFlyForAFatGuy ,

Homelander is effectively a Superman analog, i think it would be a fairer fight that you think

Jax ,

The only way Homelander beats Superman is if he has Kryptonite. Neither side would have a fair victory, Homelander would have to cheat or Superman would just win in a landslide.

AOCapitulator ,
@AOCapitulator@hexbear.net avatar

In season 3 they hyped up that another character trained for months to fight him, and a full out punch from her dents a filing cabinet and they shoot it like we’re supposed to be impressed, superman could obliterate the planet with a flick of his finger from what I’m lead to believe

pyre ,

Snyder’s Superman is more insufferable than Homelander

daltotron ,

Depends on the writer. You get a superman DC writer, homelander probably gets treated like every other fascist superman beats up. If it’s a “the boys” writer, homelander probably uses kryptonite to rip superman in half in a graphic full-page spread or some shit. You’re also gonna be dealing with, are we dropping superman into the relatively hopeless universe of the boys, are we dropping homelander into the DC universe, where he’ll probably be right st home with like 30 different characters almost exactly like him, will we come up with some portal stuff, what’s going on there

So I dunno, depends on the writer. Ke personally I’d prefer if superman won, cause it’s more hopeful and less garth ennis-y.

Donkter ,

Capitalism is a form of economic organization, fascism is a form of government (or just a form of social control), antithetical to democracy or socialism.

linkhidalgogato ,

yeah its totally just a crazy coincidence that fascism only arises in capitalist countries and that it does so when capitalism is facing a crisis, Im sure that the fact that the word privatization was coined to describe nazi economics is also just a coincidence, and certainly pinochet making all his economic policy based on the recommendation of the Chicago school of economics is also just a coincidence. The nazis giving medals to renowned pile of sub-human garbage and of course capitalist hero henry ford most also be just a coincidence. At every turn the fascists make it clear that they are capitalist and yet libs are so fucking deluded that they cant even recognize their own allies in the maintenance of capitalism.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You can’t separate economic structures from State structures. Fascism is specifically a far-right entrenchment of Capitalism as a response to Capitalist decay.

humbletightband , (edited )

But the times are not tougher by themselves, they become tougher because of capitalism itself. So it was Homelander all along

Cube6392 ,

Fascism is simply the conclusion of capitalism. Antifa is a bunch of socialists because socialism is the only cure. Anticomm and Fascism have so much overlap as movements because they’re the same movement. Even in the historical context of the first rise of fascism, who took the reins of power was people promising the capital holders they’d protect them from those scary laborers. And do you know what we don’t talk about enough in America? We don’t talk enough about why fascism didn’t take hold here. Its because in the 1920s the capital holders had seen what would happen in America if they tried to do a fascism: the coal miners rose up in violent revolt. We had what legitimately qualified as a civil war in West Virginia with the labor movement. It’s one of only two times american citizens on home soil have been bombed by an air force.

My concern is this: we don’t have enough people in this country right now who love their brethren enough to stand against fascism. I ask everyone to do this: look at the Black Lives Matter movement. Realize what the African American communities right next to you are doing to resist the police brutality they experience, the fascism they are already experiencing and resisting. Join them. Link arms with them. The reality is the antifascist movement in America is nothing new. How we prevent fascism from rising is we make sure the violent weirdos know we are many and they are few. Make sure they know they don’t have the man power to take over

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

“I’m the natural evolution of unchecked you.”

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Even checked Capitalism results in fascism, as Capitalism is entirely unsustainable and eventually results in the crisis that enables the rise of fascism.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe so. Maybe capitalism can never remain checked because the temptation to acquire more wealth will always end up winning. You’d like to think that people are better than that, buuuuut…

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yep, and it’s also inherently unsustainable and will collapse.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

There are a lot of capitalist countries that haven’t collapsed yet. We’ll need longer than our lifetimes to see proof that it can never work.

But I suspect that people in power just aren’t good enough to keep it from going bad eventually.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

There are a lot of capitalist countries that haven’t collapsed yet. We’ll need longer than our lifetimes to see proof that it can never work.

It’s more that it’s unsustainable. Collapse can be delayed, but not outright prevented as long as the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall exists.

But I suspect that people in power just aren’t good enough to keep it from going bad eventually.

It’s already “bad,” just constantly decaying.

daltotron ,

I mean we do have a pretty good indication of a quite large impending factor which may cause a lot of them to collapse in the coming years, and which could collectively be attributed to them pretty well, especially within the last 50 years.

absGeekNZ ,
@absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz avatar

That is an interesting argument, but where is the proof? Economics is a very murky “science” as it is, a broad statement such as “capitalism is inherently unstable” needs some healthy data backing it up.

The same argument could be made about communism, as an economic system it doesn’t have the best track record.

Socialism seems to have a pretty good track record. But even in socialism there are issues, especially around ensuring a steady supply of kids coming through, once population starts falling the cracks start appearing.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That is an interesting argument, but where is the proof? Economics is a very murky “science” as it is, a broad statement such as “capitalism is inherently unstable” needs some healthy data backing it up.

Marx makes his case for it in Capital, specifically Volume 3, Chapter 13-15, though it’s easier to digest Wage Labor and Capital and Value, Price and Profit. Essentially, competition forces prices lower, and automation and increased production lower the price floor. Automation is pursued because it temporarily allows you to outcompete, until other firms can produce at the same price, forcing prices to match at a new floor. This continues. It’s more like gravity than an invisible hand, there do exist ways to push back against it, but the overall trend is negative, as the Rate of Profit falls to 0.

The same argument could be made about communism, as an economic system it doesn’t have the best track record.

It can’t, because Communism abolishes this system. Communism has a good track record when properly put into historical context and is definitely the correct goal to pursue.

Socialism seems to have a pretty good track record. But even in socialism there are issues, especially around ensuring a steady supply of kids coming through, once population starts falling the cracks start appearing.

Socialism is just the precursor to Communism. The USSR, Cuba, PRC, Vietnam, Laos, etc. are/were all Socialist, building towards Communism, I don’t see why you say Communism has a bad track record but Socialism has a good track record, that seems contradictory. Further still, I don’t see what birth rates have to do with anything.

kaffiene ,

I’d say that Marxism at least is fatally flawed. The idea that you start a Communist society by gathering all power to a central council is the issue. Once power is obtained it’s never willingly dispersed. This has been the fate of existing all communist governments

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

This is a fundamental and critical misunderstanding of what Communism is, and what Marx refers to as a State. Marx makes himself clear in Critique of the Gotha Programme, but the State for Marx isn’t just “government.” Marx was vehemontly anti-Anarchist, not out of principle disagreements, but on a practical and rational basis.

For Marx, the State is the element of government by which class society sustains and protects itself. Ie, private property rights, and the police that protect it. Communism would have a government, its own police, and its own structures and administration through central planning. The State whithering away, as Marx puts it, is the slow lack of retaining the former elements of class society. For example, we no longer have Streetlamp Lighters, as streetlamps are electric now. This wasn’t because they were targeted and eliminated, but simply fell out of favor with the progression of society.

Once power is obtained it’s never willingly dispersed. This has been the fate of existing all communist governments

This right here is the crux of your misunderstanding. Carrying over from the whithering away elaboration from my last paragraph, the government is not supposed to intentionally collapse itself, it’s supposed to remain a democratic worker government, and continue to be built up over time.

Different AES states have seen their own issues, but none of them have been due to “not willingly giving up power,” which is a fundamental misconception of how these AES States function, or what the Marxist path to Communism truly is.

kaffiene ,

I’ve read Marx and I’m happy with my interpretation

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Believing Marxism to be “fatally flawed” because you completely misunderstood his works to the foundational level is silly though, right? Marxism isn’t literary fiction or anything, where you can apply Death of the Author and write about your own personal meaning from the text, Marx was very clear both in writing and in speeches, and Marxists have studied and built on his original body of work.

You don’t have to take it from me alone, Marxism is extremely thoroughly documented and understood, flexible, adaptable, and widely discussed.

kaffiene ,

Whatevs

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What was the point of your original comment? Just to take a dig at what other people were discussing and then dip when I tried to have a productive discussion with you?

daltotron ,

I believe they are what is known as a “low effort troll”

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I doubt they are a troll, they had a common misconception and then got upset when it was pointed out. There was nothing deliberately provacative.

Just odd all around.

daltotron ,

I just mean that I don’t think they were a good faith interlocutor. Probably if I were to put a specific explanation on it, I’d say that they are probably tired of having the same argument over and over again and being corrected repetitively, to the point where they’re not genuinely engaging anymore, I’ve seen that a lot. Especially with how quickly they backed out but also still left a comment. I dunno if that level of bad faith would be considered trolling in the strictest sense, but I would probably still classify it as such.

kaffiene ,

Sometimes you make a comment about something that seems interesting and then realise you’ve wandered into a enclypoedia convention and have bitten off more than you have the head space to deal with. I probably should have said that instead of what I did say. My apologies

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I did try to be thorough, but I guess I overexplained and ended up alienating you, my bad. I do hope you got something from it, I try to clear up misconceptions about Marxism when I see them because he is very misunderstood, especially on instances like Lemmy.world.

Have a good day!

kaffiene ,

Don’t apologise. Totally my fault - I was being a dick. I’ve been on the other side of this kind of interaction with someone doubling down after being called out on being a jerk. I should do better. Thanks for your response

TokenBoomer ,

You should never be “happy” with your interpretation. You should always be willing to learn, refine and adjust your interpretation to changing conditions.

kaffiene ,

Thank for your instruction, Internet rando

irreticent ,
@irreticent@lemmy.world avatar

Next instruction: eat a porkchop. You’re looking a bit peckish.

TokenBoomer ,

Your welcome

Twelve20two ,

Communism would have a government, its own police, and its own structures and administration through central planning.

I don’t get how this just whithers away

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It doesn’t.

What does whither away are things like Private Property Rights and other elements by which Capitalist society maintains itself.

The “whithering away of the State” is one of the most commonly taken out of context aspects of Marxism, most people associate the State with all aspects of Government. Marx does not make that same association, and used the word State as shorthand for the aforementioned Capitalist elements of government.

This is why there’s a big difference between Anarchism and Marxism. Anarchists seek horizontal organization, and Marxists are fine with central planning and endorse it.

Twelve20two ,

Are there contemporary sources of how to implement this in practice?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What do you mean by contemporary? The theory hasn’t really stagnated, Marxism has grown over time. There are AES states that have Marxism as the core model, but each are in different positions on the global sphere.

absGeekNZ ,
@absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz avatar

While I appreciate that Marx made a case, this is not data or evidence. It seems intuitively true, but that doesn’t really move you closer to real proof.

Essentially, competition forces prices lower, and automation and increased production lower the price floor. Automation is pursued because it temporarily allows you to outcompete, until other firms can produce at the same price, forcing prices to match at a new floor. This continues.

I’m not sure if you are trying to imply automation is a good or bad thing. Looking through history, the industrial revolution was bad for the workers of the time, but in the long run massively improved the living standards of everyone. Automation is a net good in my opinion. Competition is simply an accelerator, this is not really tied to the economic system being used. In capitalist or communist systems, firms that are protected from competition (by what ever means) do not innovate as fast or as effectively (see Intel as a great example of this).

Socialism is just the precursor to Communism.

While this can be true, it is not necessarily true.

I don’t see what birth rates have to do with anything.

As your population ages, the costs to care for them raise at an increasing rate. If you don’t have enough new workers to stabilize the economic base, the burden that an aging population places on the younger generation grows until it becomes untenable.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

While I appreciate that Marx made a case, this is not data or evidence. It seems intuitively true, but that doesn’t really move you closer to real proof.

What would count as real proof, if not prices falling due to competition?

I’m not sure if you are trying to imply automation is a good or bad thing. Looking through history, the industrial revolution was bad for the workers of the time, but in the long run massively improved the living standards of everyone. Automation is a net good in my opinion. Competition is simply an accelerator, this is not really tied to the economic system being used. In capitalist or communist systems, firms that are protected from competition (by what ever means) do not innovate as fast or as effectively (see Intel as a great example of this).

I’m not arguing whether automation is “good or bad,” I am strictly speaking about the inherent unsustainability of Capitalism. Automation is good, but in Capitalism is used to purely benefit Capitalists, as wages stagnate with respect to ever-climbing productivity.

While this can be true, it is not necessarily true.

Why would it not be true? This still doesn’t explain why you stated Communism to have a poor track record, no AES state has yet made it to Communism, as Communism must be achieved globally.

As your population ages, the costs to care for them raise at an increasing rate. If you don’t have enough new workers to stabilize the economic base, the burden that an aging population places on the younger generation grows until it becomes untenable.

Again, this has nothing to do with Socialism or Communism. It seems to be referring to welfare for elderly people, which exists in all systems.

absGeekNZ ,
@absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz avatar

What would count as real proof, if not prices falling due to competition?

That is the problem I was referring to in my original post, “economics is a very murky science”, I come from an engineering and physical sciences point of view. Good economic data is hard to come by, it is always contaminated with chaotic factors that cannot be controlled for. “Proof” may not be possible in economic science.

Why would it not be true?

Because from a logical point of view, there is no necessity to go from socialism to communism. A country could easily decide that socialism is where they wan to stay. When something is necessarily true, not only does it always happen it must happen. That is the point I was trying to make, there is nothing fundamental about socialism forcing that transition from socialism to communism.

Again, this has nothing to do with Socialism or Communism.

I have to disagree with you there, in a capitalist system the burden of care falls on the individual (see the American health care system), whereas in socialism and communism, that burden falls on the state. This is a key economic factor, I’m from NZ and the social healthcare system is really awesome, but as with everything we can see how it could be better.

The system has a capacity, if you want to increase that capacity you have to have the resources to do that. If your population is not growing (stable is not enough) then your health care system is always in danger of not having enough resource. The problem is that the system always need to grow, as we get better at improving the lives of people and increasing lifespan the burden from the elderly increases. The resources used to care for the elderly are finite and use up system capacity.

Even in a capitalist society the system has capacity limits, there is no amount of money that you can throw at it to increase your number of doctors tomorrow. You have X doctors today, this is not easily increased beyond the natural rate (X+new doctors-retiring doctors), all you can do is move the existing ones around.

You can use this argument for a lot of major points of expenditure; education, welfare, transport etc…but healthcare is starkly different between the different economic models.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That is the problem I was referring to in my original post, “economics is a very murky science”, I come from an engineering and physical sciences point of view. Good economic data is hard to come by, it is always contaminated with chaotic factors that cannot be controlled for. “Proof” may not be possible in economic science.

I also come from said POV, as do many on Lemmy. Simply casting doubt in spite of overwhelming evidence of goods getting cheaper and cheaper is not sufficient.

Because from a logical point of view, there is no necessity to go from socialism to communism. A country could easily decide that socialism is where they wan to stay. When something is necessarily true, not only does it always happen it must happen. That is the point I was trying to make, there is nothing fundamental about socialism forcing that transition from socialism to communism.

No, they cannot. Communism is advanced, developed Socialism. In the long, long run, either they move on from Socialism to Communism, or they fall back to Capitalism.

Communism is achieved when the entire globe becomes Socialist, money has been phased out (which becomes a necessity to avoid falling back into Capitalism), all Capitalism has been eradicated, and the previous elements of Capitalist society have fallen by the wayside.

Systems do not stay static, everything is in motion, even if it takes a long time.

I have to disagree with you there, in a capitalist system the burden of care falls on the individual (see the American health care system), whereas in socialism and communism, that burden falls on the state. This is a key economic factor, I’m from NZ and the social healthcare system is really awesome, but as with everything we can see how it could be better.

It also falls on the state in Capitalism.

The system has a capacity, if you want to increase that capacity you have to have the resources to do that. If your population is not growing (stable is not enough) then your health care system is always in danger of not having enough resource. The problem is that the system always need to grow, as we get better at improving the lives of people and increasing lifespan the burden from the elderly increases. The resources used to care for the elderly are finite and use up system capacity.

You can shift resources around as necessary. With replacement, you can still maintain a system.

Even in a capitalist society the system has capacity limits, there is no amount of money that you can throw at it to increase your number of doctors tomorrow. You have X doctors today, this is not easily increased beyond the natural rate (X+new doctors-retiring doctors), all you can do is move the existing ones around.

Generational shifts happen slowly and in full view. You can act accordingly, this is a process that lasts decades.

You can use this argument for a lot of major points of expenditure; education, welfare, transport etc…but healthcare is starkly different between the different economic models.

Only partially.

absGeekNZ ,
@absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz avatar

Generational shifts happen slowly and in full view. You can act accordingly, this is a process that lasts decades.

COVID happened in months, spread like wildfire and put a huge strain on healthcare systems worldwide. No amount of money thrown at the system would have increased capacity.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Sure, but it can be reacted to and dealt with easier in Socialism than Capitalism.

kaffiene ,

Which system IS stable? AFAICT every system ever has allowed some people more power than others and those people cleave more power to themselves over time. This appears to be how most empires fall

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Good question! The oldest government still in operation appears to be San Marino, a tiny country near Italy, at around 415 years. Considering that even at a small size it’s only been around that long despite civilization being around 6000 years old, I think it’s safe to say we haven’t managed a system that has real staying power yet.

absentbird ,
@absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

There’s hunter-gatherer tribes that have been more or less stable for over a thousand years. It’s said that the Nez Perce have lived on the Columbia River for 11,500 years.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, but for the purpose of looking at stable governments in cities, hunter-gather societies aren’t a helpful comparison.

kaffiene ,

Good points but my question is more about governments that work at the scale of a nation state.

absentbird ,
@absentbird@lemm.ee avatar

I think it’s possible that nation states are inherently unstable. An improvement on monarchy, but still vulnerable to oligarchy.

I’m not sure what the future holds, or what comes next, but I suspect that federation will play an important role.

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

And unregulated hyper-capitalism is what happens when communism fails

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yes, sadly. During the dissolution of the USSR, millions of people died, literacy rates plumetted, safety nets were plundered by opportunistic Capitalists, and the State was sliced up and sold for parts. This privitization was a disaster for the common worker.

immutable ,

I’m sure after decades of capitalism they are doing fine now… right?! Oh no

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Technically, they are just now approaching the metrics they had in the USSR, so they are getting there! Just slowly and unequally.

immutable , (edited )

I’ve been so sad to see the privatization of NASA. It feels very similar to me. SpaceX celebrating about launching a rocket into low earth orbit after spending billions in taxpayer money. How is this progress? We could do it back in the 60s with the equivalent computing power you can find in a $7 wristwatch today. Why didn’t we just keep building on our success, no we had to privatize, so that we could reach a beautiful end goal where space would not be for science and exploration funded by the people with its fruits improving humanity.

No we all had to pull together so spacex can build a massive taxpayer funded toll booth and every time America would like to visit the stars some billionaires can collect their cut. And people cheer

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Yep, Capitalism has been a disaster. I cannot wait for it to finally be a footnote in history.

GreyEyedGhost ,

Now go check out how much each launch of the shuttle cost ($1.5 billion per flight) and compare it to the costs by SpaceX. The shuttle was launched 135 times, SpaceX has had more launches than that in the last 3 years. That tiny computer got us to the moon, but it wasn’t enough to make rockets or boosters be able to land or be reusable. And don’t bring up the farce of reusability of the shuttle. The number I recall from back when it was still flying was a 75% overhaul to get it flight ready.

Elon may be an enormous asshole, but SpaceX has taken what they got from NASA and moved it to the point where they’re one of a handful of groups who could get us back to the moon, and doing better than any corporation on that front (China may surpass them, and Artemis only counts as a long-term concern if they can do more than 5 or 6 launches ever, which is not the current plan).

daltotron ,

I mean arguably we could’ve done all of that with nasa if nasa had received a similar level of funding to SpaceX, but that’s kind of getting into alt-history.

GreyEyedGhost ,

NASA spent more than that on the Shuttle program alone, and we got 135 launches and a dozen dead astronauts, so that is demonstrably false.

NASA is great, and did a lot of great things. We also got a lot of great technology (and some questionable shoes) because of it. But NASA suffers from the same thing Blue Origin does, bureaucracy and a top-down attitude with respect to developing technology. (They also suffered from a lot of government pork.) It’s a good system for developing new things from scratch with a clear goal, but it rarely works well for taking existing technology and wringing the most effectiveness you can out of it.

Besides all this, the shuttle program suffered from ties to the military, which put in expensive requirements that didn’t help the whole thing, either.

If NASA got out of the rocket launching business and contracted out that part of their mandate to others, they would have a lot more money to spend on other things, such as research, both pure and practical.

OurToothbrush ,

Yes, which is why it is important to protect communist projects from capitalist backed coups, like the presidential coup that illegally and undemocratically dissolved the USSR

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

Quite funny of you to mention undemocratic in the context of the USSR, as if it had been a democracy even one day of its existence. And about illegal, most of the times a country and its constitution is absolved its technically illegal. I can only think of the German constitution that actually has clauses on how to legally phase it out.

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

There was a fucking referendum where people voted for not dissolving the Union and it was ignored. It can’t go more undemocratic than that.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What do you mean by the USSR not being democratic? They practiced Soviet Democracy.

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

Technically Belarus and Russia are democracies

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Sure, those aren’t the USSR.

OurToothbrush , (edited )

as if it had been a democracy even one day of its existence

It was literally a democracy for its entire existence. Now, during the last couple decades it wasn’t as democratic as proletarian democracies like Cuba Vietnam and China, but it was still more democratic than bourgeois “democracies”

And about illegal, most of the times a country and its constitution is absolved its technically illegal.

Okay but was it good that the Russian president ordered tanks to bombard the Soviet parliament building until the parliament surrendered? Is that your take? Even when it led to the installation of “bourgeois” democracies and a humanitarian crisis not seen outside of war?

Just now the nations which made up the USSR are meeting old life expectancy metrics. And that is uneven, some of them still haven’t, some of them are doing better.

Also LOL you are German, you’d know a thing about reducing Soviet life expectancy. Your nation killed more than 25 million Soviet citizens, 1/6 of the total population. Maybe you have an imperative to do some research on what Soviet democracy was from their perspective instead of regurgitating anticommunist shit out your mouth like a good little anti-communist German.

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

Ah right so we go ad-hominum now? Frankly pretty low of you. Also it just sounds like a way to say that I am not allowed to have any differing opinion, simply because of my country’s past. Makes me want to find out where you’re from and tell you you’re not eligible to say anything because your country fucked up badly in the past.

You expect me to believe that USSR votes weren’t rigged from the get-go? Next you tell me the GDR was an actual democracy. To be fair I actually didn’t know that there were elections, which in hindsight should be obvious considering that they had a parliament. They still had dictators of much the time

As for the violence part, not that I am supporting that, but frankly it seems to be pretty much part of the Russian identity. It’s not like the USSR was not to take a friendly approach to any kind of civil unrest at all.

OurToothbrush ,

Ah right so we go ad-hominum now? Frankly pretty low of you. Also it just sounds like a way to say that I am not allowed to have any differing opinion, simply because of my country’s past. Makes me want to find out where you’re from and tell you you’re not eligible to say anything because your country fucked up badly in the past.

No, you are not personally responsible for your country being incredibly anticommunist. I know what my country has done in the past, it has happened to some of my ancestors and living family. Which is why I am skeptical of the things my country tells me about its opponents, as I am encouraging you to be by emphasizing to you what is in the political atmosphere you find yourself breathing.

You expect me to believe that USSR votes weren’t rigged from the get-go?

Do you have any evidence that they were?

Next you tell me the GDR was an actual democracy.

If was. And women and LGBT people lost a lot of rights during reunification. Not to mention the plundering of nationalized industry by the capitalist class, greatly decreasing the wealth of the rest of the country.

I would suggest reading “why women had better sex under socialism, and other arguments for economic independence”

To be fair I actually didn’t know that there were elections

It takes a lot to admit this. I would suggest taking this as a moment to reflect on what you actually know vs what you think you know.

They still had dictators of much the time

Uh, no? Even during the height of WW2 Stalin still answered to a committee.

As for the violence part, not that I am supporting that, but frankly it seems to be pretty much part of the Russian identity. It’s not like the USSR was not to take a friendly approach to any kind of civil unrest at all.

Frankly this is kinda racist and beneath you from the moments of reflection I’ve seen in this interaction.

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

Look I’d actually support socialism or at least strong social-capitalism. Just wanna make that clear.

Arguing certain things worked way better during the GDR does not at all refute my point of it not being a democracy apart from on paper. Child care for one worked incomparably better than it now does. Privatisation and more importantly the dissolvement of companies did not go well and is certainly still a problem. Actually it caused neo-feudalism in parts of the former GDR.

Stalin being officially reproachable does not actually mean he was reproachable. The kind of socialism the USSR practiced is in my opinion not all better than a well restricted capitalism. But to be fair, that is subjective and I am financially not in any kind of trouble.

It was not meant to be racist, the history of violence in Russia since I am vaguely aware of its history, does speak of itself. Certainly in the years since the founding of the RF, has violence among the people and state-sanctioned been a common thing. The wide-spread unrestricted violence can be openly observed in Ukraine. If you look at any macro-violense theories you see my point proven. All and I mean all factors for mass-violence are fulfilled.

Also if anything, my comment was xenophobic, racism is something different

OurToothbrush ,

Hey, it looks like your heart is in the right place, I would really suggest you read a bit about participatory democracy and whole process people’s democracy (although the latter has a lot of misinfo about it) I would also try to understand the socialist argument from one party democracies and how they lead to more generative conflict (that is, collegeal onflict that genuinely resolves problems and addresses needs in a way that achieves democratic consensus)

I would also suggest reading some marx who talks a lot about how even regulated capitalism cannot function. I would not start with capital though.

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

Frankly speaking, I see no actual chance of communism or even just socialism happening in my lifetime, hence I’d rather focus my remaining brain capacity on something that actually seems feasible.

It is not a finite solution but it is what it is.

OurToothbrush ,

The ideas that you are proposing are less feasible than socialism. They’re literally long term impossible within the logic of capitalism. Which you’d know if you read Marx who lays out why it doesn’t work in excruciatingly detailed and well researched ways.

kittenzrulz123 ,

Fascism is simply Capitalism when the Capitalists succeed enough

cyborganism ,

Not entirely.

Germany wasn’t having a very successful economy when Nazism started.

Nor did Italy or Spain.

kittenzrulz123 ,

That relies on the assumption that what’s good for the economy is good for the capitalists, they always make sure that capitalism occasionally goes up in flames to take advantage of social unrest.

JustEnoughDucks , (edited )
@JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl avatar

Considering the capitalists have forced the world to arbitrarily measure the “economy” by measuring how willing rich people are to play in the rich man casino…

agressivelyPassive ,

That’s the point.

In Germany there was a battle between left and right back then. The economy boomed in the 20s and faltered in the 30s. Capitalists saw the threat of socialism looming just behind Poland and so they supported fascism.

The Nazis funneled billions into large businesses. It was unsustainable and morally multi-level wrong, but they skimmed a lot of profits from these agreements. They got rich, while the economy started to collapse - even before the war.

Even after the war, most of them got away. They kept much of their wealth.

comfy ,
@comfy@lemmy.ml avatar

In fact, fascism often gains support from middle class desperation, with the blessing of the booj who prefer it over communism (which tends to rise from the lower classes during similar times of desperation)

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

One is a form of economy, the other is an ideology of societal oppression. Fascist governments have run capitalist, communist, and socialist economies. Historically, more fascist governments have developed from socialist nations than capitalist. That doesn’t make fascism inherently socialist either.

The meme would be more accurate in stating that fascism is a failure of democracy than capitalism.

kittenzrulz123 ,

Fascism is inherently capitalist, the communist “version” is called national communism or national bolshevism

PolandIsAStateOfMind ,
@PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

National bolshevism is not communist version of fascism, it’s neonazi ideology and it’s anticommunist too just trying to coopt the aesthetics.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s not really accurate, fascism is specifically a reactionary attempt to “turn the clock back” to “the good old days,” it’s focused on class colaborationism and nationalism.

Fascism is wholly anticommunist.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

There’s nothing specific about fascism. The term was coined during Mussolini’s reign, and has taken many forms since. Kershaw famously wrote that “trying to define ‘fascism’ is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.”

The only consistent components of fascism are an autocratic government and a dictatorial ruler, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible nationalism through suppression of opposition.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re leaving out the inherent focus on Corporatism and Class Colaborationism, which are key components of historically fascist countries like Italy under Mussolini or Nazi Germany. You’re also leaving out nationalism and xenophobia, the necessity of an “enemy,” and more. Fascism rarely shows all symptoms of fascism, but by your definition is just becomes “bad government.”

Fascism is a specific and flexible form of a bad government/economic structure with its own set of rising factors and characteristics, not every cruel act by a state is fascist.

Eco’s 14 points on fascism are not entirely complete, but do paint a far better picture than what you’re working with here.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

While they are common traits, they are not requirements to be considered part of fascist ideology. While used by more famous fascist governments, they are not necessary to impart the general ideology of fascism through authoritarian control by a dictator.

For example the Spanish Falange was considered a fascist movement. It supported conservative ideas about women and supported rigid gender roles that stipulated that women’s main duties in life were to be loving mothers and submissive wives. There was no economic system defining the fascist movement.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

What is the “general ideology of fascism?” You’ve stripped fascism of its defining characteristics and defined it as “bad,” which isn’t particularly useful for avoiding fascism or preventing it.

You’ve stripped it of historical context and now it’s just something that can happen, sometimes, for no reason.

disguy_ovahea , (edited )

Where did I write “fascism is bad?” It is a vague ideology that is centrally defined as I stated above.

For example, Oxford defines fascism as an extreme right-wing political system or attitude that is in favour of strong central government, aggressively promoting your own country or race above others, and that does not allow any opposition.

There is no specific economic system required for a government to be considered fascist. Historically, fascism has grown out of more socialist nations than capitalist. That doesn’t make fascism inherently socialist either.

Joseph Stalin stated in a speech in 1924: Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie’s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism.

The definition skews depending on the source. The qualities change depending on the government. The policies vary depending on the leader. The only consistent factors are the ones I stated earlier.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Where did I write “fascism is bad?” It is a vague ideology that is centrally defined as I stated above.

The vague ideology you described is so vague, it ceases to be a useful descriptor, and becomes “bad.”

For example, Oxford defines fascism as an extreme right-wing political system or attitude that is in favour of strong central government, aggressively promoting your own country or race above others, and that does not allow any opposition.

It’s right-wing, ergo it is built on Capitalism and Corporatism. You’ve debunked yourself.

There is no specific economic system required for a government to be considered fascist. Historically, fascism has grown out of more socialist nations than capitalist. That doesn’t make fascism inherently socialist either.

That’s a wild thing to say, and completely historically inaccurate, fascism has risen out of corporatism, ie later Capitalism. Nazi Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, or even fascist movements like the British Union of Fascists have all been right-wing Capitalist ideologies.

Joseph Stalin stated in a speech in 1924: Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie’s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism.

Stalin is generally correct here, yes, which aligns with Umberto Eco’s 14 points. Fascism arises during Capitalist crisis, and is a violent tool of the bourgeoisie to collaborate with the “middle class” against the lower classes. Social Democracy is Capitalist, with safety nets, not Socialist in any manner. You continue to prove yourself wrong.

The definition skews depending on the source. The qualities change depending on the government. The policies vary depending on the leader. The only consistent factors are the ones I stated earlier.

You’re wrapping around to your vague initial point after debunking yourself this entire comment, for some reason.

emergencyfood ,

The only consistent components of fascism are an autocratic government and a dictatorial ruler, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible nationalism through suppression of opposition.

This is authoritarian nationalism, not fascism. All fascism is nationalist and authoritarian, not all nationalism or authoritarianism is fascist. Bismarck, Churchill and Erdogan are/were authoritarian nationalists, but I wouldn’t call any of them fascist.

comfy ,
@comfy@lemmy.ml avatar

This is authoritarian nationalism, not fascism.

They’re not defining fascism, they’re listing the consistent components. Their post is completely agreeing with your statement: “All fascism is nationalist and authoritarian, not all nationalism or authoritarianism is fascist.”

sparkle , (edited )

Fascism in the most vague sense that you can get while still being accurate is enforcement of a hierarchy, practically no social mobility, based on traits like ethnicity, sex, wealth, etc. supposed to be the “natural order” of society; often involving some sort of mythological/religious/idealized “past” or predecessor society/civilization which was then upended by some sort of evil group(s) (the targetted groups/scapegoats), which stole from us and which are an evil that need to be stopped. This, of course, is slightly different from how Mussolini’s fascism was originally visualized – which was a corporatist nationalist dictatorship about “might”/the strong coming out on top (translated into militarism) justified by religion/mythology (in fascist Italy’s case about being the successor to the great ancient Rome and seeing through to a greater Roman Empire) – but it’s how the world has become to understand the concept of fascism as time went on.

This is the reason many see capitalism as sort of “diet fascism” – it’s entirely about a hierarchy based around socioeconomic class/groups, with highly restricted social mobility (although not completely closed off as fascism’s is), and it’s seen that your place in the hierarchy in a hypothetically purely capitalistic system is the natural order of things – your place in the hierarchy is supposedly based on how hard you work, rich people are rich because they’ve simply worked smarter and harder than the people under them, and anyone can go up the hierarchy if they simply just are a better person. Of course, in reality we know this doesn’t work and among other things generational wealth & systematic roadblocks created by the wealthy play a major factor in this hierarchy, but I digress. The reason classical liberalism / free market capitalism hates class equality, hates a system like socialism which calls for abolishing unjust hierarchies, is because it sees the abolition of the socioeconomic/class-based hierarchy as going against the natural order and forcibly placing people in the “wrong” places in the hierarchy (all on the same level) when some people deserve to be below others because they’re lazy, illegal immigrants, “criminals”, etc. In essence, they see equality not as equality, but as an “upside-down” hierarchy where the former upper class is forced below the formerly marginalized groups; to a more privileged person, equality feels like oppression. Capitalism needs an underclass to function, in a capitalistic system people with certain traits always have an unequal distribution throughout the hierarchy (scapegoated/marginalized groups significantly tending to pool at the bottom with only a few “token” examples truly traversing upwards, and people closer to the top of the pyramid being less and less prone to falling down the hierarchy). It sounds a lot like fascism, because fascism and capitalism are ideologies/systems with loosely equivalent structures but capitalism being far less pronounced.

Additionaly, classical liberalism & moreso conservative capitalism are centered around reggressing to a supposed “golden age” of the past where things were better before “they” ruined it (whoever “they” is and what specifically “they” did is vague and changes from belief to belief but usually includes taxation/redistribution of wealth/power away from the people at the top of the hierarchy, or some shift in the hierarchy). It’s like a much less pronounced form of the mythologized predecessor civilization/society of fascism, instead of hundreds or thousands of years ago it’s more like 30-40 years ago.

Fascism in the way we currently understand it doesn’t even strictly require dictatorial/autocratic rule, it can be enforced in a technically “democratic” system as long as certain groups are excluded from the democratic process. Of course, the line between democracy, broader oligarchy, narrower oligarchy, and autocracy becomes blurrier the more of the population you exclude, since democracy is more of a spectrum than anything, but generally there’s a lot of possible fascist systems where people would still consider it democratic enough. Your perspective is pretty deeply tied to which group you belong to as well – the average German thought Nazi Germany was a democracy even when Poland was invaded and throughout much of the war, but obviously the Roma and Jewish populace being genocided would definitely not agree. Capitalism does this exclusion to a large extent too – just usually not in the form of outright completely banning a group from participating – and the upper classes have signficantly more say in the democratic process, to the point where the upper classes can choose to completely eliminate options they collectively dislike enough from the equation regardless of the consent of the lower classes.

Overall while fascism and capitalism aren’t a complete overlap, fascism is for the most part a progression of capitalism (or, as more and more people see it, capitalism is a derivation of fascism and/or feudalism where we keep trying to patch up the flaws using a few socialist/progressive/democratic qualities) and pretty much requires a capitalist (or capitalist-adjacent) system to exist. Fascism can’t use, say, a socialist system because socialism inherently requires working towards the abolition of the power structures/hierarchies which fascism is based around. Of course, in fascist systems the supposed “superior” class often has power redistributed to them in the form of e.g. social welfare benefits and infrastructure investments, which isn’t straight up classical liberalism obviously, but that doesn’t necessarily violate capitalism/the capitalist power structures as a whole, it’s just using a different form of capitalism in order to keep the currently-not-scapegoated but also-not-highest castes content and thinking that things aren’t so bad.

If you have any questions about this or can’t see the reasoning of certain parts, I’m sure I (or someone else) will be happy to answer it for you.

TokenBoomer ,

Interesting. I think you have a point.

comfy ,
@comfy@lemmy.ml avatar

The post you replied to has serious issues, please see the other replies for more info.

AntiOutsideAktion ,
@AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml avatar

Their point is literally fascist propaganda

TokenBoomer , (edited )

How so? I understand the relationship of fascism and capitalism. But it stands to reason a similar social framework could arise from socialism, especially during the transition from capitalism to socialism. Think Khmer Rouge

AntiOutsideAktion ,
@AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml avatar

Okay so everything after “I understand the thing” proves you don’t understand anything. You literally don’t have any functioning definition of fascism at all. Socialism is the transition state. And the Khmer Rouge weren’t socialist (you can tell because they were US funded during the cold war).

TokenBoomer ,

Maybe not, but patronization won’t help. Maybe explaining how this definition doesn’t apply to the Khmer Rouge. Fascism is a vague term. Was it authoritarianism? What separates it from fascism? Can socialist countries be authoritarian? Does that make them fascist if they’re not capitalist?

comfy ,
@comfy@lemmy.ml avatar

This is just false. There’s no interpretation of ‘communist economies’ that applies to any fascist state ever. Two of the core characteristics of fascism are anti-liberalism and anti-Marxism, which covers basically all socialism. Fascist leaders (even the national-syndicalism types like Mussolini) have an odd relationship with capitalism, but ultimately I don’t believe they moved towards socialism either.

Historically, more fascist governments have developed from socialist nations than capitalist.

Apart from Francoist Spain, I can’t think of a single example of a fascist government which succeeded a socialist government.

en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_fascist_movements_by_c…

NoSpiritAnimal ,
@NoSpiritAnimal@lemmy.world avatar

This meme’s got the spirit, but not a great visual metaphor

Vermingot ,

Why ?

NoSpiritAnimal ,
@NoSpiritAnimal@lemmy.world avatar

Both images should be homelander.

comfy ,
@comfy@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s the point of having two similar yet distinct characters. Most people don’t look at capitalism and see fascism, they appear distinct to most, so having them both be Homelander would be a poor visual analogy.

Rev3rze ,

To me, an ignorant person who has only begun to seriously question capitalism after being exposed to lemmy for about a year, this visual analogy seems to imply that capitalism and fascism are thought to be distinct in the eyes of the maker of this meme, though. I think the suggestion of having them both be homelander conveys a different message which seems to be the consensus here: they are different sides of the same coin.

Admittedly, I’m out of my element here but I’m enjoying the exposure.

NoSpiritAnimal ,
@NoSpiritAnimal@lemmy.world avatar

No you nailed it. The meme is a poor metaphor because it implies that the system has ever been superman or that OP believes it to have been superman.

Or that capitalism only behaves like Homelander when times are tough.

For many people Capitalism has always treated them like Homelander. For many people they’ve never seen the Superman fascade.

So this meme reads as though the creator only recently learned some world history, or has some privilege in life but is becoming aware of reality for others.

You could also fix it by just having Homelander say “I’m you!”

BigBananaDealer ,
@BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee avatar

superman would obliterate homelander

thorbot ,

Yeah just pour a jug of milk out and homelander dies

10_0 ,

Strongman leaders appear when the majority want them, too bad the strongman has to destroy the system as it is to make a difference

minorkeys ,

I think it’s more that strong men leaders get backers when the majority want them. All kinds of leaders are out there at all times, people swap their support to whichever they feel like at any given time. So when times get tough, half the population will side with power concentration, primitive but simple leadership structures. The other half want power decentralized and consensus to be required, the agreement of the majority, not be left with obedience to authority, which eliminates the ability for consensus or agreement. Nobodies needs matter except the needs at the top.

It’s actually probably absolutely necessary that the GOP see Trump as sharing their interests. If you had to give up your power, you’d want to give it to whoever shares the most do your interests, so their exercise of power is more likely to benefit you. You wouldn’t willingly give to to someone whose interests were furthest from yours. And what an irony that Trump has convinced them their interests align. If we could break that assumption, people would find it much harder to hand over their power. But since Trump literally doesn’t care if he collapses America, he’s willing to give them things they want, regardless of the wisdom of it.

God the GOP are the fucking worst.

Beaver ,
@Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

It will get way worse from there.

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